162 replies to this topic

[Doopliss]

God created everything, and nothing what happens is against his will, therefore everything is good for him. It's just that we don't understand why he did things because that surpasses our capabilities.

[MikePetersSucks]

So...Sin isn't against his will? Murder isn't against his will?

I think you need to rephrase your point.

[TheAvengerLever]

If it's Gods will someone be murdered then I don't think you'd be in a position to challenge him, MPS.

[MikePetersSucks]

But the thing is that almost all deities in all religions have some problem against us murdering someone else, and the definition of SIN is something God didn't create and didn't want.

So...there's no way absolutely everything is good and in God's will, or no one would ever get in trouble, and there'd be no morality.

[TheAvengerLever]

Sin is the disobedience to a command of the Lord. If God commands you to, I don't know, drive a family out of their home to live in poverty, you best do it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Right, but if Sin exists, that by definition means that things exist that don't coordinate with God's will. Which is my only point.

If God tells you not to eat a fruit, and you eat it anyway, is that not something that is not in accordance to God's will? Is that something he sees as Good?

Of COURSE not. So Doopliss's statement cannot apply in the context or extreme he puts it in.

[Doopliss]

I'm not talking about the Christian god, I'm talking about the perfect, rational god, who is the universe's conscious first cause. If god is the conscious, supreme being that caused everything, nothing that we do is against his will, as he caused it. Everything is caused by god's will, and god's will is good, so therefore if god exists, everything is good. However, if god exists, humans have no free will. I don't like this idea, so that's why I'm atheist.

I know many people who aren't Mike Peters Sucks won't like this post at all, but it doesn't matter, as I'm writing it as a reply to her.

Edited by Doopliss, 08 July 2007 - 10:26 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm not talking about the Christian god, I'm talking about the perfect, rational god, who is the universe's conscious first cause. If god is the conscious, supreme being that caused everything, nothing that we do is against his will, as he caused it. Everything is caused by god's will, and god's will is good, so therefore if god exists, everything is good. However, if god exists, humans have no free will. I don't like this idea, so that's why I'm atheist.

That's a few leaps in logic. Just because the world was created by a perfect and rational God doesn't mean everything is in accordance with his will. His will may just be the construction of the world, and, in the Deist model, removed himself of the events of the world and probably isn't aware of what's going on anymore, or doesn't care. Who knows, God could've left immediately after creating the universe and isn't even aware that we evolved into existence.

Furthermore, God's existence doesn't mean free will. God isn't always regarded as intervening and knowing our affairs and destinies, even when he's regarded as perfect.

Also, I'm not a Her.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

God saw HIV and it was very good.

Now you're just being hostile.

Just making a point. HIV is obviously not good, but another wonderful creation from God Almighty.

Yes, but you've got to clarify your point. Flesh it out, if you will, because one sentence points can be misconstrued.

[vodkamaru]

Yes, but you've got to clarify your point. Flesh it out, if you will, because one sentence points can be misconstrued.

It's just touching on the problem of suffering. I'm obviously not god but I don't see how a disease that takes over your immune system and is spread by having sex could be a good thing in anyone's eyes. God's command to go forth and multiply is a trap. I know sunsets and full moons are beautiful creations but what about the more deadly ones? What was god thinking when he made those? Why does god will some to suffer?

Edited by vodkamaru, 09 July 2007 - 08:47 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Circle the following that is most applicable:

A) God is not real.
B) God is an ass.
C) God doesn't really intervene in human affairs because he only did what was absolutely necessary to create the universe.
D) God wants to give us an incentive to commit Jihads/Crusades/Holy Wars
E) God hates gays, even though HIV originated in and most heavily damaged the straight community
F) All of the Above.

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 09 July 2007 - 10:14 AM.

[Doopliss]

I'm not talking about the Christian god, I'm talking about the perfect, rational god, who is the universe's conscious first cause. If god is the conscious, supreme being that caused everything, nothing that we do is against his will, as he caused it. Everything is caused by god's will, and god's will is good, so therefore if god exists, everything is good. However, if god exists, humans have no free will. I don't like this idea, so that's why I'm atheist.

That's a few leaps in logic. Just because the world was created by a perfect and rational God doesn't mean everything is in accordance with his will. His will may just be the construction of the world, and, in the Deist model, removed himself of the events of the world and probably isn't aware of what's going on anymore, or doesn't care. Who knows, God could've left immediately after creating the universe and isn't even aware that we evolved into existence.

Furthermore, God's existence doesn't mean free will. God isn't always regarded as intervening and knowing our affairs and destinies, even when he's regarded as perfect.

But a perfect god knows everything, doesn't he? If he ignored something, he wouldn't be god.

Also, I'm not a Her.

Sorry.

Edited by Doopliss, 09 July 2007 - 10:34 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Yes, but you've got to clarify your point. Flesh it out, if you will, because one sentence points can be misconstrued.

It's just touching on the problem of suffering. I'm obviously not god but I don't see how a disease that takes over your immune system and is spread by having sex could be a good thing in anyone's eyes. God's command to go forth and multiply is a trap. I know sunsets and full moons are beautiful creations but what about the more deadly ones? What was god thinking when he made those? Why does god will some to suffer?

Since when do we deserve not to suffer? We're pretty much seperated from God by sin. But hey, there's a solution for that. It's Jesus.

Yes, everything does lead back to Jesus.

God hates gays, even though HIV originated in and most heavily damaged the straight community

From what I understand, HIV was first discovered in five homosexual men in Los Angeles.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 09 July 2007 - 11:08 PM.

[Selena]

It's just touching on the problem of suffering. I'm obviously not god but I don't see how a disease that takes over your immune system and is spread by having sex could be a good thing in anyone's eyes. God's command to go forth and multiply is a trap. I know sunsets and full moons are beautiful creations but what about the more deadly ones? What was god thinking when he made those? Why does god will some to suffer?

Circle the following that is most applicable:

A) God is not real.
B) God is an ass.
C) God doesn't really intervene in human affairs because he only did what was absolutely necessary to create the universe.
D) God wants to give us an incentive to commit Jihads/Crusades/Holy Wars
E) God hates gays, even though HIV originated in and most heavily damaged the straight community
F) All of the Above.

Or secret answer G:

Without something to kill off humans, the world population would skyrocket out of control and we'd break down the world ecosystem due to stripping away all of Earth's resources. It's morbid logic. Something has to keep a species population in check on a small rock floating in space. Disease, death and 'the bad things in life' are found in other species. So humans aren't any different in that respect. It's just that we forever mourn the loss of a loved ones, and other animals are more concerned about surviving in the wild to spend time moping around. There's only so much room on the planet, and there's always going to be something to combat overpopulation. Be that by god's doing or nature's. Or both, if that's how you look at things.

We notice disease more because since we've gotten a hold on technology and have otherwise become boring and civilized 'saber-tooth tiger mauling' isn't high up on the Most Likely to Kill Humans list. Although I've always quite liked option C as well.





And say what you will about HIV being a gay thing. But it's mainly a 'men in general' thing, as it's almost equally common amongst straight and gay men. It's not nearly as common amongst lemons. Further reason to make out with a girl? Well, why not?

[MikePetersSucks]

But a perfect god knows everything, doesn't he? If he ignored something, he wouldn't be god.

A perfect God is simply perfect. It doesn't need to be anything else than that. Infact, one could argue that a Perfect God would limit it's own Omniscience to allow absolute free will for his creations.

Since when do we deserve not to suffer? We're pretty much seperated from God by sin. But hey, there's a solution for that. It's Jesus.

Yes, everything does lead back to Jesus.

In Christian theology, sure. Some people, me included, believe that no one deserves to suffer in the slightest bit ever for any reason at any time. But of course, I'm realistic enough to realize that'll never be, but the sentiment is there.

From what I understand, HIV was first discovered in five homosexual men in Los Angeles.

Yes, they all got it from each other, the original to get infected having gotten it from trading a needle with a heterosexual man who traded some sort of bodily fluids with a monkey (I don't remember if he had sex with it or had a blood transfusion or what.)

Anyway, it's inarguable that HIV has affected more straights than all gays combined, and lesbians have the lowest HIV positive rate out of anyone.

Without something to kill off humans, the world population would skyrocket out of control and we'd break down the world ecosystem due to stripping away all of Earth's resources. It's morbid logic. Something has to keep a species population in check on a small rock floating in space. Disease, death and 'the bad things in life' are found in other species. So humans aren't any different in that respect. It's just that we forever mourn the loss of a loved ones, and other animals are more concerned about surviving in the wild to spend time moping around. There's only so much room on the planet, and there's always going to be something to combat overpopulation. Be that by god's doing or nature's. Or both, if that's how you look at things.

There's plenty of other things that kill off humans, like cancer, smallpox, and loads of other diseases. There's no need to make one that has the potential to wipe out our entire race in a few generations. Furthermore, a perfect God could make a world where overpopulation would never be a problem in the first place.

Thus, I'd list "Option G" under B, God is an asshole.

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 10 July 2007 - 02:27 AM.

[Oberon Storm]

From what I understand, HIV was first discovered in five homosexual men in Los Angeles.

That's where it was first discoverd in the United States. It had been around in Africa for a long time by then. And not just among gay Africans.

In Christian theology, sure. Some people, me included, believe that no one deserves to suffer in the slightest bit ever for any reason at any time. But of course, I'm realistic enough to realize that'll never be, but the sentiment is there.

I agree but would concede that some people do indeed deserve to suffer.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 10 July 2007 - 08:51 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, that's where you and I disagree. I wouldn't wish even the slightest bit of suffering on Hitler.

[Reflectionist]

Well, that's where you and I disagree. I wouldn't wish even the slightest bit of suffering on Hitler.

Well, this explains a LOT.

Is Hitler like, your hero or something? You like genocide at the expense of people who believe differently than you?

And i suppose this is the most accurate representation of Jesus ever, right?

Edited by Reflectionist, 10 July 2007 - 12:17 PM.

[Oberon Storm]

That wasn't what he was saying at all.

[Selena]

Well, this explains a LOT.

Is Hitler like, your hero or something? You like genocide at the expense of people who believe differently than you?

Pardon my language, but...


...what the fuck?


And since I wasn't able to last time I posted, I will also warn against 'God's an asshole' comments. I think you guys were warned about that earlier. This debate is rapidly degenerating into little more than name calling and attacks, and if it keeps up I'm either going to close the threads at fault or suspend those who never learned to tactfully debate like a grown up.

[Reflectionist]

It was only a question. A satirical one at that...

[vodkamaru]

Since when do we deserve not to suffer?

Who do you think deserves to suffer and why? Also could you please explain how that is love?

Edited by vodkamaru, 10 July 2007 - 06:33 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Is Hitler like, your hero or something? You like genocide at the expense of people who believe differently than you?

And you wonder why everyone talks down to you.

I'm not glorifying Hitler. I'm just saying that, as my fellow sentient being, he doesn't deserve any suffering. Just like none of his victims did.

"Hey, you just spread a shitload of suffering into the world. That's bad. Let's punish you by making you suffer too. That's sound logic."

It only perpetuates a cycle.

And since I wasn't able to last time I posted, I will also warn against 'God's an asshole' comments.

As I said before, if I say "God's an Asshole" it's rhetoric to say that doing Clause A doesn't fit a perfect God, so it can't be sourced from him without being an asshole.

Such as "God would never let kids be eaten by lions unless he was either an asshole, unaware it was happening, or unable to do something about it."

[Selena]

Sorry, but it doesn't really matter how it's used. It's still likely to infuriate people. You can make the claim without being what could be considered rude in the eyes of the opposing side. So the warning from before, and the warning from now, still stands. And I'd really prefer not to debate about it. There have been 4 billion anti-Christianity threads here, and I've been in this section since it's creation. I have a pretty good feeling as to where the thread could go if it keeps up.

[Doopliss]

As I said before, if I say "God's an Asshole" it's rhetoric to say that doing Clause A doesn't fit a perfect God, so it can't be sourced from him without being an asshole.

But then, you are saying that god is an ignorant, which does not fit a perfect god, look:

A perfect God is simply perfect. It doesn't need to be anything else than that. Infact, one could argue that a Perfect God would limit it's own Omniscience to allow absolute free will for his creations.

In that case, I could say as well that god limits his own goodness to be able to act as a not-nice god.

There have been 4 billion anti-Christianity threads here, and I've been in this section since it's creation. I have a pretty good feeling as to where the thread could go if it keeps up.

They always end the same way, don't they? All we can do is postpone that.

[vodkamaru]

Sorry, but it doesn't really matter how it's used. It's still likely to infuriate people.

Let them be infuriated. It's their own fault. If the phrase "god is an ass" is enough to infuriate someone then how do you expect to deal with people? I'm sure if I said unicorns are sluts it wouldn't matter. It's not directed at you but something that may not even exist. How is that offensive?

Edited by vodkamaru, 10 July 2007 - 09:17 PM.

[Reflectionist]

I'm an asshole anyway, so what does it matter to infuriate me?

Maybe, if you're lucky, I'll overreact to something and get banned. Is that what you'd want? That way, there's less opposition when you decide to debate Christianity!

Score one for you.

Edited by Reflectionist, 10 July 2007 - 09:37 PM.

[Selena]

Sorry, but it doesn't really matter how it's used. It's still likely to infuriate people.

Let them be infuriated. It's their own fault. If the phrase "god is an ass" is enough to infuriate someone then how do you expect to deal with people? I'm sure if I said unicorns are sluts it wouldn't matter. It's not directed at you but something that may not even exist. How is that offensive?

'Let them be infuriated' is a horrible and absolutely arrogant attitude to take. You don't believe in the Christian god, so no. Obviously saying that won't anger you but there are more people than you, and each deserves to be treated with respect. The warning on top of Controversial says not to insult or put down anyone's opinion or religion or things related to it, and by calling god an asshole, you are breaking one of our cardinal rules. Believe it or not, yes, that is in fact an insult. And you can debate without being rude or insulting. Continue to call god an asshole and keep up with that kind of attitude if you like, but you will be suspended if it continues.

So it's up to you.

The same goes for the people making fun of Mormons and any other belief system. And I said above that there will be no debate on this matter, so drop it, debate with dignity, or step back.

[Doopliss]

vodkamaru, I'm also an atheist but I have never been tempted to call god that way. I don't know why and how you decided not to believe in the christian god, but maybe I'm more atheist than you. However, I don't offend god and I have two reasons for not doing that: 1) I always avoid using swear words, except only with my closest friends, 2) I know that people will get angry if I do it. One could say that I have the right to do so, but I don't really want to, I don't need to at all and I certainly don't want people to get angry, as all I want is to learn from them. In addition, considering that we are in a discussion board, I think that 1) should be enough to explain why I don't use those kind of expressions.

On the other hand, if you don't agree with the rules, you could post a thread in the suggestions forum.

[vodkamaru]

'Let them be infuriated' is a horrible and absolutely arrogant attitude to take.

I have to disagree, seriously. I'm sure you could pick anything and find someone who it offends (a chocolate jesus for christ's sake or even this). I understand if someone says "your god is an asshole" or "your belief system is worthless" action may need to be taken for the sake of civility, but thats a direct attack at an individual. Let them be infuriated because if they're not emotionally mature enough to handle the word ass in reference to their deity then they deserve it. Call people out if they offend you. Stand up for your beliefs. Just don't make other people be quiet because you don't like the words they used.

Edited by vodkamaru, 11 July 2007 - 12:30 AM.