162 replies to this topic

[Wolf O'Donnell]

It wouldn't contradict omnipotence if he could die...

But if he could die, he wouldn't be immortal. Didn't he claim to be immortal at one point in the Bible?

[vodkamaru]

It wouldn't contradict omnipotence if he could die...

But if he could die, he wouldn't be immortal. Didn't he claim to be immortal at one point in the Bible?

*gasp* A contradiction in the Bible?!?

[CID Farwin]

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Where oh where to begin?

Well for starters, I am Mormon.

It wouldn't contradict omnipotence if he could die...

But if he could die, he wouldn't be immortal. Didn't he claim to be immortal at one point in the Bible?

Why? Let's just say that it IS possible for God to die(which doesn't make sense by itself.) So, why would he?
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Ugh, stop talking about things that human beings aren't meant to understand.
And anyway, as far as we as mortal humans are concerned, he IS immortal.

[MikePetersSucks]

In that case I don't what will answer your question then because wanting to be loved be loved by us has always been enough for me. Why does the answer need to be anymore complicated than that?

Loneliness doesn't really imply weakness though it does imply a bit of lack of self-sufficiency. Perhaps it would have been better if I had said he doesn't NEED to create us. Just like a couple doesn't need to have children. It's just nice to have something you created in your own image and it's also nicer said creation willfully chooses to love you back.

While I see your point, a perfect being (distinct from a merely omnipotent one), as God is described of wouldn't need ANYTHING, including company. Or if he did, why not chill out with his angels or the other two members of the Trinity?

The Greek Gods were considered omnipotent and the lacked [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of things, mainly self-control.

The Greek Gods were not considered omnipotent, just the most powerful, but it's expressed that they can be overthrown, killed, etcetera, and many myths go into detail about Zeus's plots to avoid the ursurping of his power.

If God killed himself, we'd be gone soon afterword.

Why? How?

[Doopliss]

Understood. But that's not the only way to look at such a comment. Earlier someone asked if God careted us out of loneliness. Maybe that's the reason. It might sound silly but think about it. If you were an omnipotent being who create an entire universe out of nothing, wouldn't you want to create other beings outside of yourself that can think and act independently from you? And wouldn't you want to be known to such beings and be loved by them? Especially if such love could only be given freely to you and not forced? It's not self-centered to want to be loved by your own creation. It's the same as mother wanted to be loved by her children. [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of times, the child will rebel and want nothing to do with his or her mother just like Mankind rebels against God. But it's not wrong for a mother to want her child to love her and in fact it would be wrong not to love your mom because you owe you very life to her. It's the same with God or at least that's how interpret God. All throughout the Bible, God is depicted as a parental figure more than anything else. If you don't believe in God, that's fine. You have your beliefs and I have mines. It just bugs me when atheists act like God doesn't even deserve love or any credit for our lives whatsoever should he exist. Saying stuff like that is like telling people their moms are absolutely worthless. That's why it strikes such a nerve when you go off saying God is a conceited, self-centered asshole even if you didn't mean it that way.

But then, the question is, how could we know what god was thinking when he created the universe?

As a side, comment, I'd like to say that I didn't find Mike Peters Suck's post offensive, at all. As I interpreted her words, she was saying: "Your conception of god isn't correct, because if he were as you are describing him, he would be selfish, but that isn't possible because we can't conceive a perfect god as selfish." She was critisicing the false god, not the perfect one which you believe in.

[TheAvengerLever]

Why? How?

Bah, forget I said it.

[Selena]

As a side, comment, I'd like to say that I didn't find Mike Peters Suck's post offensive, at all. As I interpreted her words, she was saying: "Your conception of god isn't correct, because if he were as you are describing him, he would be selfish, but that isn't possible because we can't conceive a perfect god as selfish." She was critisicing the false god, not the perfect one which you believe in.

Arunma's post indicated that there was to be no more say of this, and he laid his foot down. I'm inclined to agree with him. So please, let's drop it already. It was requested once.

*gasp* A contradiction in the Bible?!?

Snarky comments like this are also not welcome and serve as nothing but invitations to flaming competitions. Refrain from these as well. There's no reason to debate with that kind of attitude.




I don't believe in Christianity, but I'm also inclined to agree that asking whether or not god can kill himself is indeed a rather pointless question. You're pondering something that does not have an answer, so there's little point to it. A debate like that will go round and round in circles and waste everyone's time because it can never be resolved.

In addition, the Greek gods are not omnipotent at all. Neither were Norse, Sumerian, or most other pre-monotheism gods.

The Greek Gods were invented by the Greeks. They're just stories and the gods were characters. I'm not concerned with folklore.

Why not? Mythology shares much in common with the Bible. Mainly in the old Testament. I could come up with a couple myths from Sumer, for example, that may have influenced the early Canaanites and peoples within the western regions of the Levant.

Why? How?

I would assume that in Christian theology, god would sort of be an important item in the stable maintenance of the universe. Not that 'what would happen if god killed himself' is something that can be answered.

[MikePetersSucks]

I would assume that in Christian theology, god would sort of be an important item in the stable maintenance of the universe.

Yes, but at the same time, an omnipotent entity could make sure the universe survived after his death, couldn't it?

[Selena]

I don't know. Again, it's not a question that can really be answered.

[SOAP]

Understood. But that's not the only way to look at such a comment. Earlier someone asked if God careted us out of loneliness. Maybe that's the reason. It might sound silly but think about it. If you were an omnipotent being who create an entire universe out of nothing, wouldn't you want to create other beings outside of yourself that can think and act independently from you? And wouldn't you want to be known to such beings and be loved by them? Especially if such love could only be given freely to you and not forced? It's not self-centered to want to be loved by your own creation. It's the same as mother wanted to be loved by her children. [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of times, the child will rebel and want nothing to do with his or her mother just like Mankind rebels against God. But it's not wrong for a mother to want her child to love her and in fact it would be wrong not to love your mom because you owe you very life to her. It's the same with God or at least that's how interpret God. All throughout the Bible, God is depicted as a parental figure more than anything else. If you don't believe in God, that's fine. You have your beliefs and I have mines. It just bugs me when atheists act like God doesn't even deserve love or any credit for our lives whatsoever should he exist. Saying stuff like that is like telling people their moms are absolutely worthless. That's why it strikes such a nerve when you go off saying God is a conceited, self-centered asshole even if you didn't mean it that way.

But then, the question is, how could we know what god was thinking when he created the universe?

As a side, comment, I'd like to say that I didn't find Mike Peters Suck's post offensive, at all. As I interpreted her words, she was saying: "Your conception of god isn't correct, because if he were as you are describing him, he would be selfish, but that isn't possible because we can't conceive a perfect god as selfish." She was critisicing the false god, not the perfect one which you believe in.

First off all...

MPS is a girl?

Secondly, yeah I understand that now. And about your question, thruthishly we can't know that. Not anymore than I can know what you're thinking right now. That is unless you personally tell us. We can't know what God is thinking either. We can only quess until he personally decides to talk to us. There are some that believe the Bible is the literal Word of God so that gives us some insight to how God thinks. There's also the Qu'ran. I don't know if the Qu'ran is the word of God or not. I do believe at soome level, all the Abrahamic faiths were inspired by God, therefore all their holy books were inspired by God but written down by men trying their best to make sense of what God wanted them to write down so there's always the chance of error. But it's all we got till God decides to talk to us personally. But even if he did, would we even listen. No one many people listened to him when he was Jesus. They called him demon possessed for claiming to be God. Now imagine some guy nowadays claiming to be God.

The Baha'i Faith actually believes God does indeed talk to us, even to this day, through chosen individuals that appaer before before humanity preaching peace and prosperity for all mankind: Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, ect. Hecck I swear to this day that God spoke through me through a drunk lady. I was at a party and she was drunk off her ass. Then she suddenly turned sober and told me things I was doing wrong in my life that she couldn't have possibly have known especially not in her current state of mind. After which she laughed and went right back to being drunk again.

Edit:

I would assume that in Christian theology, god would sort of be an important item in the stable maintenance of the universe.

Yes, but at the same time, an omnipotent entity could make sure the universe survived after his death, couldn't it?

If you're a deist, he's already left us. But to most people, God ceasing to exist is like changing or ommitting one of the laws of the Universe that make life possible. Change the rule on how big an atom is, and suddenly everything breaks down on an atomic level. I imagine that's the same with God.

Edited by SOAP, 05 July 2007 - 07:25 AM.

[LionHarted]

It stands to reason that nothing can exist if Existence doesn't exist (you cannot have A without A). This is essentially why God needs to exist.

It stands to reason that someone that loves life and living things would want more of it/them (more to love!). This is essentially why God created other life.

It stands to reason that if love of life is the ultimate good in the universe, that loving Life would be the ultimate expression of good in the universe. Morality is in theory a guide to goodness, and therefore a guide to loving Life/life.

God's an artist. No one cares why He creates; we just care about the fact that He did.

Why CAN God create the world?

Here's an even bigger question. Why does God exist? Not that he does. But where did he come from? What purpose does he serve?

Replace "God" with "reality", and you encounter the same lack of an answer.

True, the godless picture and the God picture are both incapable of explaining this, but the God picture is at least capable of explaining the human soul, which is where it becomes relevant to us. The godless picture must necessarily be without reasons (and yet considered the more "reasonable", however that works).

The deuterocanonical books are outside of the 66 books decided by the Council of Nicea, which used books almost universally used by the early church.

But if the Council of Nicea had the authority to decide which books would be a part of Scripture, the Council of Trent, which derived its authority from the same source (i.e., the same Church), ought to have the same authority.

[MikePetersSucks]

MPS is a girl?

Not really. I'm actually a hermaphrodite.

If you're a deist, he's already left us. But to most people, God ceasing to exist is like changing or ommitting one of the laws of the Universe that make life possible. Change the rule on how big an atom is, and suddenly everything breaks down on an atomic level. I imagine that's the same with God.

But those same people believe God is transcendent, don't they? Meaning that God is wholly seperate from the universe.

God's an artist. No one cares why He creates; we just care about the fact that He did.

In your interpretation. Others call him an Architect, which makes a significant difference.

True, the godless picture and the God picture are both incapable of explaining this, but the God picture is at least capable of explaining the human soul, which is where it becomes relevant to us. The godless picture must necessarily be without reasons (and yet considered the more "reasonable", however that works).

The godless picture says the human soul doesn't exist, so why would it matter? That's like saying the Christian Picture can't explain the Buddha.

[LionHarted]

In your interpretation. Others call him an Architect, which makes a significant difference.

Architect. Author. Whatever.

All are artists.

The godless picture says the human soul doesn't exist, so why would it matter? That's like saying the Christian Picture can't explain the Buddha.

"Human soul" referring to the complexity and understanding power of the human mind, more so than the Christian construction.

[Doopliss]

Secondly, yeah I understand that now. And about your question, thruthishly we can't know that. Not anymore than I can know what you're thinking right now. That is unless you personally tell us. We can't know what God is thinking either. We can only quess until he personally decides to talk to us. There are some that believe the Bible is the literal Word of God so that gives us some insight to how God thinks. There's also the Qu'ran. I don't know if the Qu'ran is the word of God or not. I do believe at soome level, all the Abrahamic faiths were inspired by God, therefore all their holy books were inspired by God but written down by men trying their best to make sense of what God wanted them to write down so there's always the chance of error. But it's all we got till God decides to talk to us personally. But even if he did, would we even listen. No one many people listened to him when he was Jesus. They called him demon possessed for claiming to be God. Now imagine some guy nowadays claiming to be God.

The Baha'i Faith actually believes God does indeed talk to us, even to this day, through chosen individuals that appaer before before humanity preaching peace and prosperity for all mankind: Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, ect. Hecck I swear to this day that God spoke through me through a drunk lady. I was at a party and she was drunk off her ass. Then she suddenly turned sober and told me things I was doing wrong in my life that she couldn't have possibly have known especially not in her current state of mind. After which she laughed and went right back to being drunk again.

So you believe more in the Bible than in reason? Don't you think we can know God by faith in reason instead of faith in a book?

The godless picture says the human soul doesn't exist, so why would it matter? That's like saying the Christian Picture can't explain the Buddha.

Exactly. If we only believe in matter and discard spirit, there is no need for god to exist.

[MikePetersSucks]

Architect. Author. Whatever.

All are artists.

Not true. Many architects do their job with no artistic passion.

"Human soul" referring to the complexity and understanding power of the human mind, more so than the Christian construction.

You're describing the human mind. "Human soul" is supposed to be a divine, ethereal quality, such as an immortal consciousness.

[arunma]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to offend. I was trying to say, with that comment, was that it makes God out to be something we all know he isn't, and is thus an insatisfactory answer.

No problem, and I'm sorry if I've been misunderstanding your posts. But if I may make a friendly suggestion (no really, I mean that), it might be helpful to be clearer in the future.

[MikePetersSucks]

I try to be as clear as possible. However, English isn't my first language, and I have a mild cause of autism that makes it difficult to put my thoughts into words.

[SOAP]

I try to be as clear as possible. However, English isn't my first language, and I have a mild cause of autism that makes it difficult to put my thoughts into words.

Just out of random curiosity what is your first language?

[MikePetersSucks]

My first language is Japanese.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

It stands to reason that nothing can exist if Existence doesn't exist (you cannot have A without A). This is essentially why God needs to exist.

That's a huge leap of logic you've got there. Would you care to explain it?

It stands to reason that someone that loves life and living things would want more of it/them (more to love!). This is essentially why God created other life.

Once again, would you care to explain why you think God loves life?

It stands to reason that if love of life is the ultimate good in the universe, that loving Life would be the ultimate expression of good in the universe. Morality is in theory a guide to goodness, and therefore a guide to loving Life/life.

Oh yes... in the Bible, aren't we commanded to put our children to death if they're snarky to their parents?

God's an artist. No one cares why He creates; we just care about the fact that He did.

You're having difficulties explaining how religion can answer questions of "why", so you cover your bases by stating nobody cares about the question, why? Coz that's the impression I'm getting from your sentences.

Replace "God" with "reality", and you encounter the same lack of an answer.

Yes, but here's the point. People have claimed religion explains why. Yet, so far, it hasn't really done so satisfactorily, has it?

True, the godless picture and the God picture are both incapable of explaining this, but the God picture is at least capable of explaining the human soul, which is where it becomes relevant to us. The godless picture must necessarily be without reasons (and yet considered the more "reasonable", however that works).

The God picture doesn't explain the human soul at all. Why did God create the human soul? Was he even telling the truth about the soul? God is not an explanation of why, yet it's the best explanation that religion can give. Therefore, religion cannot explain why, but only who.

[Arturo]

Once again, would you care to explain why you think God loves life?

Genesis 1:31

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

For example.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Once again, would you care to explain why you think God loves life?

Genesis 1:31

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

For example.

Yes, but this is God we're talking about. Would a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent God create something he didn't really like?

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, like bugs with more than four legs, for instance?

[vodkamaru]

Once again, would you care to explain why you think God loves life?

Genesis 1:31

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

For example.

God saw HIV and it was very good.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

God saw HIV and it was very good.

Now you're just being hostile.

[vodkamaru]

God saw HIV and it was very good.

Now you're just being hostile.

Just making a point. HIV is obviously not good, but another wonderful creation from God Almighty.

[Arturo]

A creation that didn't exist when the Bible was written.


Great.

[vodkamaru]

A creation that didn't exist when the Bible was written.


Great.

So is it more like "God saw everything he made up to this point and so far it was good."

[TheAvengerLever]

No, it means

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

That's what it means.

[MikePetersSucks]

God saw HIV and it was very good.

Now you're just being hostile.

I agree. All I've ever seen you do is be unnecessarily mean to religious people.