128 replies to this topic

[Splash]

Then I see it as convincing youself to believe things you know may not be true. That is so backwards to me. We have these incredibly powerful minds and people would prefer to just ignore them.

Faith is not backwards. As long as the faith is in something moral and constructive, I fail to see what everyone is getting so up in arms about!

And before anyone assumes that I said all that I did because I am some sort of bible-hugger, listen to me. I am an athiest. I just happen to go the extra mile to look at things through other people's perspectives.

But now that this has just gone right back into a shouting fest, I suppose it's pointless of me to try to prove anything through this.

[TempleMaster]

Agreed Splash. I respect your opinion and admire that you open your mind or go the extra mile.

I don't see any point in really argueing about something that is a personal issue. The Bible says to find your own salvation and that is what you have to do. It is a choice in how you will live. God gave you the choice and whether or not you choose to live for him or not is completely up to you. Listen, I know I may be new, but my opinions are just and set. I hoped that I could help you to see things from my point of view like I've see things from your point of view, but in this case. It might be good to agree to disagree on this subject. I'm not out to cause tension, your religion is your personal experience and I'm not trying to change anyone.

[Reflectionist]

This is what you might call 'not being able to accept something that's bigger than your humanity-is-infallible ego'

[TempleMaster]

I agree. The best way to put it is if your not willing to accept it, just end it. No sense in argueing over something that is beyond reasoning. I agree to disagree on the sudject. I'd like to stay on good terms with people with even stating opinions.

[Hero of Slime]

I know God exists because I have felt his pressence. I have felt the strength and courage I did not have before I came to him. My faith is not without proof, I can feel God so I know he is there.

[TempleMaster]

That is what you need in proff. How you feel is the proff that he is there. I'm a Christian going on a constant daily walk and I feel his presence everyday. He's there and you have to either except him or not. Your choice. Your free will.

[Khallos]

God doesn't judge you on what religion you come from. He sees you in your walk with Christ. He sent his son to die for us. I'm not talking about finding a religion. The only thing you need to be a Christian is to believe whole heartidly in the Bible and love God with all your heart as well as live according to his word.

So you can be a Christian if you aren't religious, but you fully believe everything in a bible and love God and follow his word? Surely that'd make you religious in most peoples eyes.

and basically the same question could be applied to this:

I'm not talking about joining a church or finding religion. I'm asking if you had ever wanted to find life and peace and happiness through Jesus Christ?

Personally I'm for a life of peace and happiness, but I'd find it hard to have someone properly ruling over me, to not be able to disobey an order whether I thought it right or wrong. Then again I believe in God, do I worship him? No. I arrogantly ask for his help, but then again I call upon a multitude of dieties for aid (mainly to unnerve people though) through the nasty bits of life. An idea so strong it personifies the generally benevolent parts of the human ethos as well as some of the darker bits? Yes, I cannot deny it's existence, but could I ever worship such a thing anymore than I could worship a human?

Then again my religious beliefs are hardly.... normal, the Democratic Republic of Hell for one, as well as many other weird ideas and theories, such as a "fame rating", the above mentioned belief but nonworship and unappreciated salvation.

[wisp]

So if I have faith that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, then it might not because there's no proof that it does?

That is a completely different subject. Don't try to pretend it's the same thing. The sun rising is a result of Earth's rotation, which has been scientifically observed.

I'm not saying that faith is usually or even sometimes incorrect (at least, in the case of the existence of god/s or which one/s are proper to believe in), but it has no bearing on a scientifically proven observable phenomenon.

[SOAP]

Personally I'm for a life of peace and happiness, but I'd find it hard to have someone properly ruling over me, to not be able to disobey an order whether I thought it right or wrong.

Recheck your Bible. *Jesus* only gave us two commandments: Love God and love others as yourself. Now if you want to disagree with either of those and do your own thing, go right ahead. And yeah he did say a few other things like give to the poor. Yeah I can see how one wouldn't want to do that. What nerve Jesus had, telling us to actually do things for other people...

[Khallos]

But I find it hard to sort of feel anything for a thing I have never seen or touched, so I can live my peaceful happy life, helping at the orphanage and what not. Netherless I go to hell due to actively not loving God. For example if I was told I couldn't eat meat on fridays, I'd be tempted to break it as I can not see the point of the rule. Not that would because I'm vegetarian, but that's beside the point. Being told giving to the poor is a reasonable request, so I can see nothing wrong with it however.

And this Jesus and God chap, are you sure they ever met? I mean they do seem to give rather contradictory views, then again over the course of several thousand years peoples morals, ideals and principles change. Why can't Gods? Maybe He's sitting up there right now (beardless, they were so last millenium...), leaning back in His deck chair (made from reycable materials), sipping some nice chilled communal wine(organic and fair-trade) and watching the beautiful sunset which He designed himself to perfection. Naturally Tupac would rapping some of latest hymns beside him.

[Reflectionist]

That is a completely different subject. Don't try to pretend it's the same thing. The sun rising is a result of Earth's rotation, which has been scientifically observed.

Faith is faith, you said so yourself. "This is what the dictionary defines as faith" you didn't say "This is one of the definitions of faith." If you had, then you could've put religion in one and whatever in the other, but you didn't. And you can say that, so clearly either you edited the definition to fit what you were trying to say, or you just don't know what faith is.

Edited by Reflectionist, 03 May 2007 - 06:15 PM.

[wisp]

You didn't even read the second bit of my post. Or if you did, you paid no attention to it.

Okay, now that you've editted your post.. I still don't see how you're proving me wrong. In fact, I can't make sense of what you just said at all.

Edited by wisp, 03 May 2007 - 06:18 PM.

[SOAP]

But I find it hard to sort of feel anything for a thing I have never seen or touched.

Let me ask you something: Have you ever been alone? Have you ever wanted a girlfriend really bad but no girl ever gave you the time of day? Maybe not but you could at least emphasize here. If you were a lonely guy who had no luck with girls would you just give up or keep trying to put yourself out there, hoping that the next one will be the girl for you? A lot of people want to give up on finding someone to love them but regardless they keep on wishing and hoping and getting their hearts trampled on time after time. Why? Why put yourself through something that probably doesn't even exist. There's no guarantee that there's the perfect match for everyone and even if you do find the one perfect for you, there's a bigger chance you'll screw it up anyways. There's also no guarantee God exists but people will continue to follow him regardless. You don't think believer's get their hearts broken? You don't think they question God's rules or his very existence. I can tell you honestly I deal with my own doubt every day of my life. I think if more believers were truly honest they'd say the same thing. I want to give up sometimes too. It'd be soooo much easier to be atheist and have all the gay sex I want. But either out of stupidity or devotion or maybe a little of both, I deny my own desires and keep turning to something I'm not even sure exists. It is no different than a lonely guy or girl who keeps believing they have a soulmate somewhere out there.

[vodkamaru]

It'd be soooo much easier to be atheist and have all the gay sex I want.

That came out of nowhere.

[SOAP]

That came out of nowhere.

Sorry. I have a lot of sexual frustration right now.

[Hero of Slime]

I don't really understand the athiest side. Why do you demand proof? I think there is proof but it really can't be explained, not by a person, not by the bible, and certainly not by a banana. The proof is there but one has to seek it. However there are things that can't be explained at all, but why do they need to be?

[Splash]

I don't really understand the athiest side. Why do you demand proof? I think there is proof but it really can't be explained, not by a person, not by the bible, and certainly not by a banana. The proof is there but one has to seek it. However there are things that can't be explained at all, but why do they need to be?

Because it makes more sense for us to go find the truth behind something ourselves then to just believe and leave it at that.
To be honest, I have trouble understanding both your question and why you are asking it, but I'll assume you're asking that for the same reason that people ask how you can just blindly follow whatever a book tells you.
Different folks, different strokes. ;3 We all have our own way of seeing how the world works.

[SOAP]

It's not just believing and leaving it at that. Not everyone who's christian was raised Christian. I was raised agnostic. My step dad is a hardcore athiest. I could just believe what he believes and just leave it at that. But instead I sought the truth on my own and come to believe God does in fact exist. My search for truth does not end there. There's still [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] I want to learn about God and my place in his plan.

[wisp]

Even so, what satisfies one person's definition of 'personal proof' might not satisfy someone else's. In other words, Joe might be okay believing in God because he's read it in the Bible and he feels personally connected to God, whereas Mike on the other hand might not have felt any personal connection to a God that would override a need for a more rational or tangible sort of 'proof.'

Anyway... to Zol... it's not just the 'atheist' side that demands proof. I'm no atheist. I'm not anything right now but someone trying to figure out her own answers, and I'd like something concrete enough to sufficiently convince me that God does or does not exist, and if the answer is yes, which one is the 'right' one. Even Siddartha ("the" Buddha) said not to believe anything just because you were told - he said to question and pursue truth on your own.

[TempleMaster]

Reflectionist is perfectly right in what he is saying. There is no way that words alone can prove that God exsists. You can't see him and we can sit and tell people all day long that he is real, but if your heart is not ready or refuses to recieve that truth, then there is no point in pushing things. If you want proff though, like I said, go outside and watch the sunset. See how that beautiful picture is made and know that it is made for you each and every day. Consider yourself. You are different from every other person and were made specifically by God. He knows where you are at and what you are doing right now. He is by your side watching you with love. If you open your heart is more of what I should have said, and just listen, you can feel he is there.

[Reflectionist]

You didn't even read the second bit of my post. Or if you did, you paid no attention to it.

Okay, now that you've editted your post.. I still don't see how you're proving me wrong. In fact, I can't make sense of what you just said at all.

First of all, I edited my post before you posted at all. Before it was a one liner insult, which I feel compelled to do again, but I won't, and secondly, what I edited it into is what you see now, so don't try to pull that 'you changed your view' bull with me, mmk?

Now, let me try to reiterate what I meant. :-)

According to the Bible, as TempleMaster said, faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." According to the dictionary, faith is simply "belief that is not based on proof." So, from a religious standpoint, most people do believe their faith to be proof enough of their religious convictions, whereas in fact, faith is inherently lacking in... proof.

According to the dictionary, faith is simply, "belief that is not based on proof." Oh really? Is that all that faith is? So faith has no other definitions? Because if it happened to, it could be used to describe what faith means when used in the context of God. But since God is clearly unscientific, and clearly untestable, then obviously there is no God, because, there's no proof, right?

But if that is the only definition of the word faith, then yes, I could say "I have faith the Sun will rise tomorrow" and by definition of the word faith, it may not. Because the word faith implies that there is no proof and no reason for the sun to come up. It's the same way with God. Faith isn't about believing in something that there's no proof of. There is proof everywhere you look.

What kind of purpose does your life hold for you if you were made randomly? I wouldn't see it as having any sort of purpose if I were created through a completely random process to have intelligent thought and all the other things that make humans different from animals.

But I choose to believe that I was created by God, because, at the very least, that makes my life feel worthwhile. That makes me want to stay alive.

Clearly, you want to stay alive too, but I'm completely at a loss for why, because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter.

And by the way, what I quoted was the second part of your post.

Edited by Reflectionist, 04 May 2007 - 12:25 AM.

[SOAP]

Even so, what satisfies one person's definition of 'personal proof' might not satisfy someone else's. In other words, Joe might be okay believing in God because he's read it in the Bible and he feels personally connected to God, whereas Mike on the other hand might not have felt any personal connection to a God that would override a need for a more rational or tangible sort of 'proof.'

Anyway... to Zol... it's not just the 'atheist' side that demands proof. I'm no atheist. I'm not anything right now but someone trying to figure out her own answers, and I'd like something concrete enough to sufficiently convince me that God does or does not exist, and if the answer is yes, which one is the 'right' one. Even Siddartha ("the" Buddha) said not to believe anything just because you were told - he said to question and pursue truth on your own.

I used to be just like you. In fact I came to the point that we all make our own gods. Not different religions but each individual since even people within the same church/temple/synagogue can't seem to completely agree who and what God is and what God wants from us mortals. It wasn't until I was faced with real genuine Christians, and not people who just go by the name just so they can judge others, that I began to be convince. These were real people who went through real problems and somehow or another they got through it and were able to love others. I had one friend who used to be a drunk man-whore who'd sleep with women and toss them away. The same guy who used to chase people around the parking lot naked with a baseball bat. The same guy who once took a dump on an old lady's lawn for no other reason other than he just didn't like her. This very same guy who felt a calling from God and turned into someone completely opposite. Coming from what he used to be he somehow changed into a much better person yet he's never read any self-help books or gone through any sort of therapy. The only thing he's done is read the Bible. Never once did he ever tell me I have to believe in God because he said so. I was not convinced by his words but by the changes in him. If there is no God then something in that Bible must've done something for him. That's a pretty big deal for a 2000 year old book written by a bunch of old men.

[TempleMaster]

Excellent example. I'm fired up again on this topic. I see that people who keep asking for proff are those who just refuse to either accept God as real or are scared to do so. I'm not saying that anyone here is scared to admit God is real, but I can see some resentment in the people who refuse. This is one of those "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." We can sit here and talk on this subject all the time, but unless your wanting to believe it, then there is really no point to trying to prove God's exsistence. I believe that he exsists and my proff being that I'm in a wonderful home with food to eat, happy, fulfilled heart.

[wisp]

I used to be just like you. In fact I came to the point that we all make our own gods. Not different religions but each individual since even people within the same church/temple/synagogue can't seem to completely agree who and what God is and what God wants from us mortals. It wasn't until I was faced with real genuine Christians, and not people who just go by the name just so they can judge others, that I began to be convince. These were real people who went through real problems and somehow or another they got through it and were able to love others. I had one friend who used to be a drunk man-whore who'd sleep with women and toss them away. The same guy who used to chase people around the parking lot naked with a baseball bat. The same guy who once took a dump on an old lady's lawn for no other reason other than he just didn't like her. This very same guy who felt a calling from God and turned into someone completely opposite. Coming from what he used to be he somehow changed into a much better person yet he's never read any self-help books or gone through any sort of therapy. The only thing he's done is read the Bible. Never once did he ever tell me I have to believe in God because he said so. I was not convinced by his words but by the changes in him. If there is no God then something in that Bible must've done something for him. That's a pretty big deal for a 2000 year old book written by a bunch of old men.

And I used to be a rather devout Christian. The "real genuine" kind. Certain beliefs are not for everyone. And before anyone slams me and says I must not have been a real Christian if I left the church - It's largely people claiming to be Christian but acting in ways that reflected nothing but hypocrisy, bigotry and belligerence that chased me away in the first place.

And Reflectionist - yes, the timestamp shows you editting your post after I posted, but that's because I had the reply window open before you editted it. Sometimes it takes me a while to figure out how I want to word things - I am really bad at explaining my thoughts sometimes and I try to avoid making posts that people have to strain to decipher. And for the record, I never said anything about anyone's mind changing.

I'd like to direct you to my signature. Not everything I argue is a personal belief of mine, nor have I stated anywhere that I don't believe in God or that I feel faith is wrong or pointless. Arguing the 'other side' of things (compared to the majority of the people in the thread) actually helps me to have a better understanding of the situation at large in most cases. Step out of your little bubble of hatred for people who might share different beliefs than you and stop acting like your opinion is infallible.

[Selena]

What kind of purpose does your life hold for you if you were made randomly? I wouldn't see it as having any sort of purpose if I were created through a completely random process to have intelligent thought and all the other things that make humans different from animals.

But I choose to believe that I was created by God, because, at the very least, that makes my life feel worthwhile. That makes me want to stay alive.

Clearly, you want to stay alive too, but I'm completely at a loss for why, because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter.

The only reason I quote this is because I've heard these kind of questions in a similar debate before, and these are the ones that tend to strike me hardest. The kind of insinuation that because a person doesn't worship a deity that they're condemned to have no purpose in life and feel as if life is pointless and depressing. Which is completely false, and rather baffling. I'd dare say mildly offensive as well, because it seems to devalue that person in question. I don't believe in 'destiny' or that life has a definite purpose at all other than 'you're here, so enjoy it and explore.' But I'm completely fine with that, and have a very happy life. I don't need any more than that to be happy. The absence of a solid religion does absolutely nothing to make me feel like less of a person. So what's the purpose to life, even if it 'doesn't really matter?'

Love, friendship and family. The things that have bound people to each other for as long as we've walked the Earth. Bringing a smile to the face of the person you care about (be it a lover, your child, or a family member) makes you want to stay alive so that you can see them the next day, makes you feel worthwhile, and makes you very content. It must be important, as people often seem to pray to god to protect or deliver these very things. So yeah. God or not, there's a purpose for us heathens, and one I consider to be very important for both religious and non-religious alike.

Not that I particularly like how many religions (not just Christianity, but as it's the one I'm most familiar with I'm going to fall back on that one by necessity) treat 'life.' Because it seems like the religious purpose in life is nothing more than to prepare for and wait for the afterlife. Or at least that's what a lot of preachers make it out to be like - treating life like nothing more than a brief and harsh trial before eternal paradise or damnation, which is what most people focus on, or so it seems. That might be my stepfather's evangelical DVDs talking to me, though. But, it's that which would make me truly feel like life is pointless and less like the real gift it should be considered. More value on death and beyond that the here and now. While I obviously endorse restraint and morality (which yes, even us heathens have), I also think life is something that should be explored for all it's worth and not necessarily restrained by the laws that will get you a box seat in the afterlife. Perhaps that's why I favor reincarnation. You can come back again and again to joy every nuance of life with a fresh mind and body. But that's just me.



As for faith vs. proof, most everyone would believe in the same exact religion if there was actual proof. But as there are a large number of major and minor religions alike, in addition to people not believing in anything at all, this obviously isn't the case. Each one has its own 'proof' for being correct that followers often cite and so you HAVE to use faith in it's main definition (believing in something for which there is no guarantee or evidence) when talking about religion. It's good to find a religion you're compatible with, but I think it's irresponsible to not question it or try to find solid evidence, given the importance it has. For all you know, you could have selected the wrong one and be forced to deal with a South Park-esque afterlife situation. "Sorry, the real religion was Mormanism! Good bye!"

[SOAP]

And I used to be a rather devout Christian. The "real genuine" kind. Certain beliefs are not for everyone. And before anyone slams me and says I must not have been a real Christian if I left the church - It's largely people claiming to be Christian but acting in ways that reflected nothing but hypocrisy, bigotry and belligerence that chased me away in the first place.

Sounds like you let people effect your view of God. If you want to seek your own truth about whether God exists or not, you need to separate him from those who who follow him. It's really sad that [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of religious people are such bigots but it happens. Even you admit that these are simply people claiming to be Christian. It doesn't negate the fact that there are genuine Christians. You yourself were one. Listen Wisp. I've had two exorcism attempts on me. One of them happened only a few months ago, both for the same reason. Because they thought just because I was gay and didn't think it was wrong I must be demon possessed. Before that I was molest by the pastor's son and a bunch of his older and much bigger friends back when I was in middle school. And I couldn't tell anyone because it was his word against mines and since I was notoriously effeminate and he was the pastor's son my word meant nothing. I went through dozens of churches, all of them either hurt me in the end or never seemed to accept me. I left religion behind too. It was easy too, since I was the only one in my house actually going to church. Eventually I became so bitter I became a Satanic and would flaunt it around Christians just to spite them, just to see them squirm for how they treated me. It wasn't until I learned to seperate God from those who falsely claim to worship him that I was able to see the truth for myself. I don't think you were never a true Christian. I think that you were truly genuine but either got hurt by other Christians or saw how fellow Christians treated others. I think you still hold a grudge against those people and don't want to share the same faith as people like that. That's not good because in a way, you're letting those people define who you are because whatever they are, you might feel to be the complete opposite.

[Hero of Slime]

Wisp, I too know exactly what you are going through. Since I have been in college I have been hanging out with a lot of christians. Some of them are real egotists, which I can not stand. These people make judgements on others with out even knowing them. Like assuming everyone they don't know is a athiest or heratic. It is best to pay those people no mind. As Soap said, don't let them define what you believe.

[SOAP]

Also, I'd like to add that I'm not trying to say you should be Christian. Just don't not be Christian just because of a bunch hypocrites ruined it for you. If taht makes any sense...

Edited by SOAP, 04 May 2007 - 03:42 AM.

[wisp]

Sounds like you let people effect your view of God. If you want to seek your own truth about whether God exists or not, you need to separate him from those who who follow him. It's really sad that [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of religious people are such bigots but it happens. Even you admit that these are simply people claiming to be Christian. It doesn't negate the fact that there are genuine Christians. You yourself were one. Listen Wisp. I've had two exorcism attempts on me. One of them happened only a few months ago, both for the same reason. Because they thought just because I was gay and didn't think it was wrong I must be demon possessed. Before that I was molest by the pastor's son and a bunch of his older and much bigger friends back when I was in middle school. And I couldn't tell anyone because it was his word against mines and since I was notoriously effeminate and he was the pastor's son my word meant nothing. I went through dozens of churches, all of them either hurt me in the end or never seemed to accept me. I left religion behind too. It was easy too, since I was the only one in my house actually going to church. Eventually I became so bitter I became a Satanic and would flaunt it around Christians just to spite them, just to see them squirm for how they treated me. It wasn't until I learned to seperate God from those who falsely claim to worship him that I was able to see the truth for myself. I don't think you were never a true Christian. I think that you were truly genuine but either got hurt by other Christians or saw how fellow Christians treated others. I think you still hold a grudge against those people and don't want to share the same faith as people like that. That's not good because in a way, you're letting those people define who you are because whatever they are, you might feel to be the complete opposite.

Guys, I'm not letting anyone define what I believe. I actually retained my Christian beliefs long after I stopped calling myself a Christian. It wasn't really about sharing a faith with people like that so much as a label. I still went to my home church periodically and followed the general 'rules' of the faith as well. It wasn't until later that I was re-exposed to other alternatives and started to REALLY consider them that I began to think religion might not be for me.

[Hero of Slime]

I don't agree with SOAP there. You should be christian. Did you not have any fun while being a christian? Did Jesus bring you no peace?