128 replies to this topic

[Splash]

It seems that the often-used approach for converting atheists seems to be to make them fear god... which is something I heartily disapprove of. Using fear to convince people is wrong, and saying that one should be in a certain religion just in case it is right is just sick.

Edited by Splash, 02 May 2007 - 07:25 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Fear does not work, love does. If you show someone love exists then they will believe. The peanut butter thing appearantly tries to prove god exists by proving that life can not come out of nothing but it does a really bad job of making that point. I believe there is God and he did create the universe. But that does not stop abiogenesis from being possible.

[SOAP]

It seems that the often-used approach for converting atheists seems to be to make them fear god... which is something I heartily disapprove of. Using fear to convince people is wrong, and saying that one should be in a certain religion just in case it is right is just sick.

Using fear or trying to spare someone from what you feel is an awful fate. Some Christians are just looking for a head count and use whatever scare tactics to get you convert. But a lot of Christians do genuinely believe there is hell, whether it be a place or a perpetual state of mind, and would want to warn anyone and everyone from it. What's wrong wrong with that? In fact, I'd be a worse person if I did believe in hell, that it was really bad place to be, yet I said nothing to you.

If say there was a bottle filled with suspicious-looking liquid. You're told by people you trust that it's filled with poison. You decide it's not worth the drink so you leave it alone. Your friend tries to drink from it though. You're not sure if it's dangerous but you feel strongly that it is. Would you just stand there and let him drink it or would you try to stop him and warn him of the possibility that it may kill him and risk using fear to effect his decision?

[Hero of Slime]

I don't like to talk about hell. I also don't like to tell people they arn't christian and are going to hell, especially it they call themselves christian.

[SOAP]

I don't like to talk about hell. I also don't like to tell people they arn't christian and are going to hell, especially it they call themselves christian.

I don't like to either. But it's not about what *we* like. Jesus talked about hell more than he did about heaven. Why, because he knew it existed and he knew he should warn people. Of course he could've been nice and PC and not tell anyone nad let them find out for themselves.

Instilling fear to convince someone is not the best approach but if you have raeson to believe something is bad, you'd warn that person. Simple as that. It all depends on why you're using fear. Some people use it to get a head count or just so they can win the debate, as if it were some sort game. But it can also be done out love or concern. After all if you believe hell exists, wou wouldn't want others to go there either, regardless of what they may think of you if you warn them.

It's the same as a mother warning her child not to touch the stove. She's not trying to be mean and oppressing some needless rules on her child. She's warning her because common sense says that a hot stove will burn, and she wanting to spare the child from harm.

[TempleMaster]

If you want evidence of God's word or of his exsistence, go outside and look at the sunset. There you can see the beauty of his creation. Look at yourself for reference and know that you were created in the image of almighty God. Believing in God is faith and faith is what the Bible tells us to have constantly. If you don't have faith, then you don't have the belief in God. Not on the subject of conversion, but be logical and ask how this entire universe came to be naturally and then wonder if there is not someone above who is watching out for you.

[JRPomazon]

I am speechless. I'm not sure whether or not to laugh or cry.

[TempleMaster]

At my post? I'm the new guy, no need to do either or. I'm a strong christian and try to live according to God's word everyday. It may seem like work, but believe me that life is better off knowing that God is behind you and all for you. He said that He would never leave nor forsake you. If your a sinner, he is following you just saying, "I'm here for you, all you need to is come and I'll help." That is how I've always seen it and heard it myself.

[TempleMaster]

Sorry, didn't mean to push my luck here if that is what I did. I don't want anyone to be offensive towards me, but that was just my opinion. I don't your trend to end just because of something I've said. Please understand I'm still new and learning everyday. *Turns up collar on coat*

Edited by TempleMaster, 02 May 2007 - 09:51 PM.

[SOAP]

I am speechless. I'm not sure whether or not to laugh or cry.

I can help with the crying part. J/K *tosses metal bat*

[TempleMaster]

I'd rather see someone cry over what I've said than laugh. Makes more sense to me, but what do I know. I'm not an announcer man. Anyway, back to the topic of how to get to sleep. A couple of suggestions.

*Take a shower before bed.
*Read a book
*Eat some light snack, non-chocolate or cafine free.
*Listen to some soothing music (I don't think hard rock counts.) Try instrumental or listen to Zelda music.
*Take some deep breathing.

The list is endless in possiblities. Just relax and you'll sleep fine... Whoever needs help sleeping at night. Still new. (Light arrow pointing "New Guy")

[Hero of Slime]

Unless you were joking (I can't tell) this thread is not literally about not being able to sleep, its about the video's on the first post.

I don't want to see people believing in God only because they fear Hell, that is not why I believe.

Edited by The Zol, 02 May 2007 - 10:48 PM.

[Splash]

Some Christians are just looking for a head count and use whatever scare tactics to get you convert. But a lot of Christians do genuinely believe there is hell, whether it be a place or a perpetual state of mind, and would want to warn anyone and everyone from it. What's wrong wrong with that?

First off, the story you used as an analogy was perfect. I really do need to compliment you on that, because that is a wonderful way to describe it.
Second, I do understand. It's those who yell and point at those who they believe will go to hell that bother me. It is a minority, I know, but they still are very prominent and they need as much - if not more - coaching as they think others do.

No comments as to what the new guy has said.

[SOAP]

First off, the story you used as an analogy was perfect. I really do need to compliment you on that, because that is a wonderful way to describe it.
Second, I do understand. It's those who yell and point at those who they believe will go to hell that bother me. It is a minority, I know, but they still are very prominent and they need as much - if not more - coaching as they think others do.

No comments as to what the new guy has said.

Well people who point around like that just don't get it. It's not certain groups that are going to hell, it's everyone. If I tried to go to heaven on my own merit I'd go to hell. Without God, I'm a sinner and far, far FAR from perfect. If it wasn't for me turning to God I'd be just another selfish jerk who wants everyone to love him but doesn't want to love others in return. If anyone, the first person I should point to is myself. My only hope is that my faith in God can change my fate.

[Hero of Slime]

But what is wrong with telling people about God with out mentioning hell?

[SOAP]

Did I say that there's anything is wrong with that? I'm just saying you shouldn't be afraid to tell people about hell, especially if you seriously believe it exists. If you're more worried about not looking like a jerk than about the well being of someone else's soul, then that says more about you than that person.

[Splash]

But what is wrong with telling people about God with out mentioning hell?

Why would there be something wrong with that? O_o All we're saying is that the people who yell at others about hell need to constrain themselves and be more intelligent and empathetic.

When it does come to mentioning hell, though, there is nothing wrong with it, just as there is nothing wrong with discussing reincarnation, rotting in the ground, or not even mentioning it at all.

Edited by Splash, 03 May 2007 - 01:18 AM.

[TempleMaster]

Hey, can I say something again? I'm new and my opinion might not count for anything, but to tell someone about the exsistence of God and not Hell is unlogical. If your trying to reach people, warning them that they are going to hell is NOT the way to convince them. Tell them a place exsists, but istead, help them focus on the positives of being a christain. Challenge them and let them know that God is right behind them in everything we do. Be sure to mention and all truth that God is not someone up there in Heaven with big black marker saying when someone sins, "Hey, he just sinned. Gabriel, take his name out of our book of life."

God is a loving god and one of patience. He is all good and that is what people need to see. There is good in serving him and again if you need proff of his exsistence, look around you and ask how all this planet has to be came without being created. Tell people about the good things of God and they will see that there is a better life than the one they are leaving.

Again sorry for the sleep thing, I thought that was what this trend was about.

[Splash]

Pardon me for stating to obvious, but there are always many approaches to convincing anyone of anything, especially when using the powers of logic.
Reincarnation makes sense because it just seems silly to create two piles of "good" and "bad" souls in which those have passed on are just thrown into and piled up for eternity. The world - and thus with this it is assumed that all, if not the vast majority, of worlds - is all about a balance, about recycling and reusing what is on this planet in order to keep a healthy ecosystem. It seems strange that this would exist, but then to say that all living things have a one-way trip. Thus it makes sense that souls, too, are on a never ending trip to keep balance in the world(s).
Hell and heaven makes sense because our lives need a goal. There must be a reason as to why living things have morals, whether it was given to them or whether they developed them themselves, and in turn there must be reasoning behind guilt, love, and the conscience. Thus it makes sense that we are, in the end, judged for our actions and awarded appropriately by whomever it is who may watch over us.
That nothing would happen when we die makes sense because there has never been - and probably won't be - any solid proof at all that anything happens after we die. It seems silly to think that when our bodies shut down some magic part of us jumps out and goes whereever. Thus it makes sense that we simply rejoin the earth we came from.

I'll stop there for now.

[TempleMaster]

Good point and I see what your talking about and have to agree. The fact though that life is as it is should be proff enough to convince people of the exsistence of God. In the Bible, it is said that God created us from the dust and because of the sins the first humans committed, we again turn to dust when we die. That is a real fact and proved the Bible correct.

Another thing I found out just recently was a bottle neck population. In this I mean that geneticists have discovered from our genes that the population once took a dramtic drop to being nearly extinct. This is proff of the flood of Noah when every person except for Noah and his family were killed. You can find multiple things that prove that God is real. Just depends on who is willing to search.

[Splash]

Well, I was also trying to make a point about how there is a great deal of reasoning behind other beliefs -- just as much as there is to back up your own.

And as far as proof goes, there is a great deal of proof to, well, disprove the fables in the bible of actually being real, as well. But, personally, I'm going to save that for a time when I have the time to actually dig those articles back up.
However, just for the sake of it, if you can PM me or post the link to the article you're talking about I would appreciate it. I have trouble trying to see how there could be solid proof of how one pair of humans managed to fit two of every single animal on earth onto a boat, have the entire population die, and then get right back to it.

Edited by Splash, 03 May 2007 - 11:22 AM.

[TempleMaster]

I had actually heard of this on a documentary on the Television and I see your point. I'm stumped as to how the world could have repopulated so quickly as well. My belief is that it might have been possible that God created more humans again after the great flood and let the human race flourish again. This is not stated Biblically, but just a theory. If I can find something that goes hand in hand with this topic, then I'll send something to you alright?

[Splash]

Sure, thanks!
I've always seen many of the stories of the Torah and the Bible as fables. They're not bibliographies that we must take and believe word for word, but stories that we should learn a lesson from (although what lessons one learns from a story depends on what point of view they take).
When I want to teach someone or prove a point about morals and life, I thus tend to refer to Aesop's Fables rather than any religious script.

[Meep]

For an atheist, use the old "what have you got to lose?" argument. If you don't believe and you were right, you've gained nothing. If you don't believe and you were wrong, you've lost everything. If you do believe and you were right, you've gained everything. If you do believe and were wrong, you haven't lost anything.

Pascal's Wager.

If you want evidence of God's word or of his exsistence, go outside and look at the sunset. There you can see the beauty of his creation.

I can't remember who it was who said it but when I see people making this argument I remember a quote:

"When people talk about how beautiful the world is and how God made it, all I can think about is the parasitic worm in a child's eye in Africa who will be blinded for life."

So, whilst you're looking at the pretty graphics you're forgetting about the gritty reality.

Oh and also: http://en.wikipedia....ent_from_beauty

If say there was a bottle filled with suspicious-looking liquid. You're told by people you trust that it's filled with poison. You decide it's not worth the drink so you leave it alone. Your friend tries to drink from it though. You're not sure if it's dangerous but you feel strongly that it is. Would you just stand there and let him drink it or would you try to stop him and warn him of the possibility that it may kill him and risk using fear to effect his decision?

So you wouldn't ask for proof how those people know? I realise that you said they're people you trust, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for proof, did they see someone who drank it and died? Or did their friend have a friend who saw it? The difference of course is that you can get the liquid tested and prove that it is or isn't poisonous, you can't prove hell other than eschatologically.

Instilling fear to convince someone is not the best approach but if you have raeson to believe something is bad, you'd warn that person. Simple as that. It all depends on why you're using fear. Some people use it to get a head count or just so they can win the debate, as if it were some sort game. But it can also be done out love or concern. After all if you believe hell exists, wou wouldn't want others to go there either, regardless of what they may think of you if you warn them.

So you can't tell somebody something is bad without scaring them into believing it? That seems a pretty harsh way to go about things.
I don't think you can justify using fear of any degree as a form of love, how is putting people through mental anguish justified just to protect them against a possible threat? You can just warn them that from your point of view it's a bad decision, you don't have to spout a diatribe about eternal damnation to scare them into acting how you want them to. If you loved them, you'd let them act as they wished.

Also, it's common sense that hand's will be burnt on stoves, yes. But it's not common sense that if you commit a wrong act in this life your actions will cause you to suffer in another.

In the Bible, it is said that God created us from the dust and because of the sins the first humans committed, we again turn to dust when we die. That is a real fact and proved the Bible correct.

No...no it doesn't. All it shows is that one small part of the bible made a correct observation.

Another thing I found out just recently was a bottle neck population. In this I mean that geneticists have discovered from our genes that the population once took a dramtic drop to being nearly extinct. This is proff of the flood of Noah when every person except for Noah and his family were killed. You can find multiple things that prove that God is real. Just depends on who is willing to search.

And again, no. It's not proof of the flood. Just because the population nearly died out doesn't mean there was a world wide flood. There are many, many other far more rational possibilities.

[vodkamaru]

The fact though that life is as it is should be proff enough to convince people of the exsistence of God.

Could you explain that... at all?

In the Bible, it is said that God created us from the dust and because of the sins the first humans committed, we again turn to dust when we die. That is a real fact and proved the Bible correct.

Not so much "proved correct" by the Bible as much as "observed by people" who wrote the Bible.

Geneticists have discovered from our genes that the population once took a dramtic drop to being nearly extinct. This is proff of the flood of Noah when every person except for Noah and his family were killed.

That's some serious stretching. How could you come to that conclusion? Don't you question where the water came from and where did it went when the flood stopped? Or what happened to freshwater fish when their habitats were contaminated with saltwater? Or how did we go from 2 people to 6bil+ in 4000 years? What the FUCK?

You can find multiple things that prove that God is real.

So far I haven't come across one. I'd love it if someone had something, but all I've come across is broken logic and shitty reasoning...

[Arturo]

Many philosophers have tried to prove God's existance. All of their demonstrations contain (some subtly) fallacies.

But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist. It just means that we don't know it. It's a matter of faith.

[TempleMaster]

The reason you don't see the proff is because your not opening your mind to the possiblities. You turely respect anothers opinion if they don't first keep their minds open to the possibilities. By the way in the flood: That was a time span of up to 80,000 years ago in time. There were plenty of generations that have passes since then. Consider that within 1000 to 2000 AD the world spread from just Asia and Europe to All the America's. In otherwords flooding with people.

Listen, believing in God is having faith. It says in the bible that faith is the assurance of things hoped for. The convicton of things not seen. This just means that faith is believing in something that we can't see. Just because we can't see God doesn't mean he doesn't exsist. Before you get me on this one. Do you see the wind outside? It is invisible and yet the affects of it can be seen. The same way goes for God, we can't see him because he is of the spirit and we are of physical being. Know he is real though and all you have to do is open your mind to the possibilites and you'll see what I mean.

[vodkamaru]

It's a matter of faith.

I'm calling on anyone who has faith to tell me what it is. I keep hearing people say you can't reason god's existence you just have to have faith. What does that mean? I'm taking it to mean that you don't know for sure there is a god but you're choosing to believe it anyway. Is that it or am I missing something?

[Splash]

I'm taking it to mean that you don't know for sure there is a god but you're choosing to believe it anyway.

Yes. Faith is the trust in someone or something, even when you don't know for sure it exists.

[vodkamaru]

Yes. Faith is the trust in someone or something, even when you don't know for sure it exists.

Then I see it as convincing youself to believe things you know may not be true. That is so backwards to me. We have these incredibly powerful minds and people would prefer to just ignore them.