255 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

Last time I checked, coral =/= earth and grove. I can't see how it can be legitimate without redefining the context of "earth and grove" beyond the obvious context that the Deku Tree represents as the earth and forest spirit.

He's not saying that the trees are coral, for heck's sake. He's saying that living structures, LIKE coral, can make up 'land'. Meaning that trees, in huge abundance, can make up land. HENCE THE WHOLE ISLAND OF FOREST HAVEN, which, as you guys should know, as it was clearly stated in the game, is formed from a giant tree.

Thus the Deku Tree wants to connect the islands. End of it. Stop arguing about the bloody landmass now. It doesn't matter. If some of you want to believe that the Deku Tree is going to raise Hyrule, FINE, believe that. You're WRONG, but don't let that stop you. It makes no difference either way.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 April 2007 - 12:13 PM.

[LionHarted]

jhurvid misunderstands the argument.
Coral is a metaphor to explain how trees might make "land" bigger. The islands shall be built of trees themselves, as opposed to trees building islands or lowering mountains. Of course, how this would remotely work is beyond me.

[D~N]

Imagine this Tree growing on this island. Now imagine that happening every year, one tree per island, all across the the great sea. Now you have trees-a-plenty, the size of a parking lot, with tangling roots shooting off the island. Yeah, eventually, you're gunna get some contact between islands.

THAT'S what the GDT is trying to do. Yeah, the idea issimilar to coral. No coral is involved, however. *smacks forhead*

[Raien]

jhurvid misunderstands the argument.
Coral is a metaphor to explain how trees might make "land" bigger. The islands shall be built of trees themselves, as opposed to trees building islands or lowering mountains. Of course, how this would remotely work is beyond me.

*smacks forehead*

You're right. I some how got confused on this matter, despite discussing this with Arturo a while back. Alright, I refer to what I said before getting confused: without evidence to justify or disprove any argument, no one here can claim that their own personal preference is "logical", "likely" or "realistic". No one can claim they know developer intentions.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 April 2007 - 01:11 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

...For fucks sake, people. What is it that you fail to understand here? Arturo said the islands would grow because of organic material left behind by the trees. Dead leaves, trunks, what-have-you. Guess what? Through natural decomposing, these things turn into mud, soil, yes, even your precious "earth." This process is very real. Real, as in, its happening in the real world, unlike everything else proposed in this thread.

Of course, none of this matters unless that's what creators had in mind when they designed the game. But, and here's the thing, they probably just calked it up to magic. Get over it, and take your trivial bickering somewhere else, because this apparent lack of reading comprehension is killing me.

Edit: Wow, I think DN might actually be the first one to come up with something possibly remotely similar to what the creators intended. My congratulations to you, sir.

[Fyxe]

Cheers HoL, yeah, of course, D~N alone came up with that idea, that isn't what I've been saying all along at all, no siree.

Bah.

[Hero of Legend]

It's not like you don't do the same thing to me, you know...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 10 April 2007 - 01:23 PM.

[Fyxe]

*Blinks* Well, that's out of the blue? Since when?

[Arturo]

This discussion is pretty much pointless.

I just said an idea of how it could work, because it's teh idea I liek most. But >I enver attempted to prove it or anything. The only fact we have is that the islands are going to be connected by the GDT. How? We don't know. But there is no mention of rising land, just of connecting islands. Saying they do something else than hat is speculative.

Anyway..... this is pointless.

[Hero of Legend]

*Blinks* Well, that's out of the blue? Since when?

I dunno, since everyone else started doing it? But I'm not mad, it just happens. A lot, apparently.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 10 April 2007 - 01:53 PM.

[Fyxe]

You've lost me there HoL. o.o Sorry, if I've been ignoring stuff you've said or something then it's been entirely by accident.

[FDL]

Fyxe, HoL, and DN are right. So is Arturo, I think. Never does the GDT say he is going to raise Hyrule and so it's not what happens.

[LionHarted]

This process is very real.

It makes islands bigger? (Yes, I really want to know.)

But there is no mention of rising land, just of connecting islands.

Connecting islands by eliminating the sea that separates them?--the most clear-cut way to turn smaller islands into one bigger island.
Or does that not cut it for you?

Edited by LionHarted, 10 April 2007 - 04:11 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

It makes islands bigger? (Yes, I really want to know.)

If more soil is created than what is eroded, yes.

[LionHarted]

If more soil is created than what is eroded, yes.

I'm looking for an actual example or something out of a geographical journal to back it up, HoL.
I understand that it works in theory. But is this theory based on something that actually occurs in nature? (to any stretch, big islands or small, lakes, swamps or seas)

Edited by LionHarted, 10 April 2007 - 04:10 PM.

[Raien]

Fyxe, HoL, and DN are right. So is Arturo, I think. Never does the GDT say he is going to raise Hyrule and so it's not what happens.

If raising the land of Hyrule is merely means to an end, then of course the Deku Tree is not going to reference it because he only refers to his dream of creating a new human society.

The situation is that there are two possible ways that the Deku Tree could connect the islands and NEITHER are actually said or inferred in any way. This does not make anyone right or wrong, so please stop arguing that your personal preference is somehow law.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 April 2007 - 04:48 PM.

[Fyxe]

The situation is that there are two possible ways that the Deku Tree could connect the islands and NEITHER are actually said or inferred in any way.

Incorrect. He says he shall connect them using the trees, which is the whole POINT of the sidequest. Meaning that they will be connected by trees. It's inferred and said.

Nothing is said about raising Hyrule.

Besides, I don't know if anyone quite understands the fact that Hyrule was kinda, y'know, destroyed. In the ending. I feel this is being overlooked JUST A TAD.

[Raien]

Incorrect. He says he shall connect them using the trees, which is the whole POINT of the sidequest. Meaning that they will be connected by trees. It's inferred and said.

Nothing is said about raising Hyrule.

Besides, I don't know if anyone quite understands the fact that Hyrule was kinda, y'know, destroyed. In the ending. I feel this is being overlooked JUST A TAD.

1. Nothing is said about raising Hyrule. Nothing is said about trees making earth out of organic matter. Don't claim the high ground when absolutely nothing is specified.

2. The destruction of Hyrule is not specifically defined, certainly not as absolute. Writings in secure locations could survive the flooding of Hyrule.

I accept your conclusion that ALTTP after TP is much less of an imagination stretch than ALTTP after TWW, but in my opinion, Aonuma's attitude towards the split timeline warrants recognition of the possibility that Aonuma left room to consider a post-TWW placement for ALTTP. All I ask is that we remain open-minded on this matter.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 April 2007 - 05:10 PM.

[Fyxe]

Nothing is said about trees making earth out of organic matter. Don't claim the high ground when absolutely nothing is specified.

I never said they made earth. I just said they would connect the islands. Which IS specified.

Although I should point out that organic matter is a significant part of 'earth'.

2. The destruction of Hyrule is not specifically defined, certainly not as absolute. Writings in secure locations could survive the flooding of Hyrule.

I never said they couldn't. It's possible that things like the Master Sword could be lifted from the remains of Hyrule. But it's 'washed away'. If not entirely wiped from existence, effectively brought to utter ruin is surely the implication. Basically, while you might be able to find the drowned remains of Hyrule and even lift up shattered relics, you're not going to find any solid remains of Hyrule on the surface other than the temples and other things that survived at the top of the mountains.

[Raien]

I never said they made earth. I just said they would connect the islands. Which IS specified.

Although I should point out that organic matter is a significant part of 'earth'.

Without specification for how the Deku Tree connects the islands, more than one possibility is available to speculate with. That's all I'm saying.

I never said they couldn't. It's possible that things like the Master Sword could be lifted from the remains of Hyrule. But it's 'washed away'. If not entirely wiped from existence, effectively brought to utter ruin is surely the implication. Basically, while you might be able to find the drowned remains of Hyrule and even lift up shattered relics, you're not going to find any solid remains of Hyrule on the surface other than the temples and other things that survived at the top of the mountains.

Agreed. I like that idea better than whole buildings surviving and being raised from below the Great Sea. In fact, it's closer to what I've always believed.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 April 2007 - 05:44 PM.

[FDL]

I accept your conclusion that ALTTP after TP is much less of an imagination stretch than ALTTP after TWW, but in my opinion, Aonuma's attitude towards the split timeline warrants recognition of the possibility that Aonuma left room to consider a post-TWW placement for ALTTP. All I ask is that we remain open-minded on this matter.

No, his attitude towards the split really doesn't help this theory at all, I think. By placing ALttP after TWW, you go completely against the intent of TWW, and to a lesser extent, ALttP. I mean, it's not something completely disproven, but it really makes very little sense and ruins some aspects of the games individual stories(something which I believe many people disregard when theorizing). I mean, if the single timeline theory was the correct one, there would be a chance that ALttP was post TWW. But the fact that there is a split timeline makes it clear to me that ALttP is not after TWW.

[Fyxe]

I'm with FDL on this. If we're going to accept two diverging timelines, we might as well take the opportunity to place ALttP after Twilight Princess, which just seems to flow nicer on all sorts of levels.

That's unless ALttP doesn't somehow occur on BOTH timelines... It is a parallel timeline, after all. Dum dum dum.

[Raien]

No, his attitude towards the split really doesn't help this theory at all, I think. By placing ALttP after TWW, you go completely against the intent of TWW, and to a lesser extent, ALttP. I mean, it's not something completely disproven, but it really makes very little sense and ruins some aspects of the games individual stories(something which I believe many people disregard when theorizing). I mean, if the single timeline theory was the correct one, there would be a chance that ALttP was post TWW. But the fact that there is a split timeline makes it clear to me that ALttP is not after TWW.

I respect that TWW established a definite closure for the kingdom of Hyrule, but the King also left hope for the the people with his wish. That hope could materialise in a new continent far away, or it could come in the form of a new kingdom built on the land of an old kingdom. Establishing a new kingdom does not diminish the closure of the old kingdom.

Now a question, what if Aonuma did not change his mind and placed TP before TWW? Where would things stand regarding the split timeline then? I am very happy that TP did a lot to end the inconsistencies between OoT and ALTTP on a child timeline, but the constant doubt that Aonuma displayed since admitting to the potential of working with a split timeline in 2003 does raise questions as to why. This raises doubt and with that the possibility of linear intentions before TP's development.

That said, I think it has always been in Aonuma's interests to establish potential over fact, because this allows more ways in which the storyline can progress. If the developers want to save the child timeline for future games, they have the potential to place the 2D games in the adult timeline. If they want to connect future games to the 2D games, they have the potential to do that in the child timeline (and technically the adult timeline). The potential is always there for new ideas.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 April 2007 - 06:51 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Fyxe, If ALttp is after TP in the child ending then the IW can't be the adult ending of OoT as the game creators intended.

[Raien]

Fyxe, If ALttp is after TP in the child ending then the IW can't be the adult ending of OoT as the game creators intended.

I would have thought Ganondorf's death in TWW was enough evidence for OoT not being related to the IW anymore, but then Lex disagrees.

[Fyxe]

Fyxe, If ALttp is after TP in the child ending then the IW can't be the adult ending of OoT as the game creators intended.

Exactly the same problem if it occurs after TWW, frankly. It seems screwed no matter where we put it.

[Hero of Slime]

I would have thought Ganondorf's death in TWW was enough evidence for OoT not being related to the IW anymore,

I thought so all along, its just so funny to see fyxe admiting it.

[Showsni]

I'm with FDL on this. If we're going to accept two diverging timelines, we might as well take the opportunity to place ALttP after Twilight Princess, which just seems to flow nicer on all sorts of levels.

That's unless ALttP doesn't somehow occur on BOTH timelines... It is a parallel timeline, after all. Dum dum dum.

Like, say, before OoT. I think it fits nicer there anyway.

Which of course negates the original reason for the split anyway, leaving us with just the new reason (OoT-TWW versus OoT-TP).

[D~N]

Edit: Wow, I think DN might actually be the first one to come up with something possibly remotely similar to what the creators intended. My congratulations to you, sir.

Fyxe claimed it before I, you see. She gets her due repect, too. I just google'd some pictures.
However, that is what I firmly believe, yeah.


Lets see now, what are we talking about? ALttP?! How'd we get to that? I thought we were talking about the Ocean, next thing I know, we're talking about ALttP. Ugggggggh.

I'm on the side that says ALttP is after TP, because it works nicely that way. *shrug* I suppose to see what's after TWW, we're gunna have to wait until Phantom Hourglass. Because, of course, you could easily work a whole chunk of games after TWW, but first we need a new Hyrule. ALttP is one of those games, but it's kinda tricky. With the Iw and the Master Sword, and all. But yes, the possibilities are all there...

Oh, and btw, the IW is screwed forever, no mattter when you think it is. Yup. I've come to the conclusion that the IW is outside of time and space. Oh yeah

Edited by D~N, 10 April 2007 - 09:34 PM.

[LionHarted]

Exactly the same problem if it occurs after TWW, frankly. It seems screwed no matter where we put it.

Depends.

You could just ignore Ganon and look at just the Sacred Realm, which isn't necessarily unsealed in TWW, and isn't necessarily not-sealed in TP. From a Twilight=SR perspective, the SR is sealed in TP, and looking at TWW Ganon's "bypass seal without breaking it" fetish there's no reason to automatically ssume the SR seal is definitely and fully broken in TWW.

However, if Ganon from the IW/SW must be the same Ganon in ALttP, then I'd say IW/SW=Adult OoT is pretty screwed. Even in '98, though, when discussing the influences on pig Ganon in OoT, the developers did a fancy job of implying otherwise--Ganon's pig form was based on ALttP Ganon, as a "secret recognition" to that game, as opposed to Ganon being a pig in OoT because he's a pig in ALttP (homage vs. connection). The game has a lot of subtle differences as well, such as Ganon being sealed with one piece of the Triforce as opposed to the whole shebang, in human form, etc. However, the simplest story is that Ganon is sealed in the IW/SW, and escaped in ALttP, and that story is nigh impossible in a SW=OoT scenario.

Of course, two Ganons is also substantially less complicated than two Ganons, two wars, and two seals, so.... x.x

Edited by LionHarted, 10 April 2007 - 09:41 PM.