255 replies to this topic

[FDL]

So explain the islands "withering".

[LionHarted]

So explain the islands "withering".

Show me the quote. I honestly don't see it in the FAQ.

Though, quite frankly, the curse on the woods and Ganondorf's taint would be sufficient.

Edited by LionHarted, 26 March 2007 - 07:04 PM.

[Fyxe]

The ALttP one is just a basic Trident.
The Oracles one has a skull on it.
The FSA one has a red jewel, and is dark-colored, not white like the other two.

I just want to point out that you're wrong, the one in ALttP has the skull on it too.

But yes, of course there are some stylistic differences. Possibly the red jewel in FSA is a reference to Phantom Ganon's trident in OoT, which also had a red jewel.

But basically the stylistic differences are always going to be there. Heck, Helmasaurs have gone from being reptiles to being insects to being birds to being pigs. But they're clearly the same creatures. Same thing with the trident.

[LionHarted]

I just want to point out that you're wrong, the one in ALttP has the skull on it too.

Touche. I was thinking it was at the forked end in the Oracles for some reason.

[FDL]

Show me the quote. I honestly don't see it in the FAQ.

Though, quite frankly, the curse on the woods and Ganondorf's taint would be sufficient.

It may not be in the quote FAQ, it's something the King of Hyrule may only say when you talk to him again after you reach the Forest Haven.

[LionHarted]

It may not be in the quote FAQ, it's something the King of Hyrule may only say when you talk to him again after you reach the Forest Haven.

Then I'm certain he's talking about the effects of Ganon's evil.

[FDL]

Why would that make you certain?

[LionHarted]

Why would that make you certain?

Because he says it after you reach the Forest Haven.

[FDL]

Huh? Why?

[LionHarted]

Huh? Why?

As opposed to "before". All of the destruction and decay across the Great Sea seems to be news to the King of Red Lions.

[FDL]

Well, yeah, but no islands wither no matter what. It's obvious that those islands used to bigger(and apparently had "throngs of forest fairies").

[LionHarted]

Well, yeah, but no islands wither no matter what.

Sure they do. Especially if the trees holding them up start to die.

[Raien]

All death and destruction on the islands of the Great Sea have been attributed to Ganon either by the KoRL or other characters. When Ganon dies, the destruction ceases. If you are referring to the Deku Tree's seeds that turn into withering trees, the Deku Tree tells us that it is Ganondorf's magic that causes them to wither.

Edited by jhurvid, 29 March 2007 - 11:31 AM.

[FDL]

Noooo, the destruction was caused by Ganondorf's followers. The withering is entirely different, more shrinking I think, and that is caused by magic.

[Raien]

Noooo, the destruction was caused by Ganondorf's followers. The withering is entirely different, more shrinking I think, and that is caused by magic.

In many cases, the destruction was stated to be caused by Ganondorf's magic, such as the breaking of Great Fish Isle.

As for the withering of the trees, the Great Deku Tree says that to connect the islands with forests is his dream, and then he says that Ganondorf is preventing that dream from becoming a reality. Hence, we know that Ganondorf is responsible for the withering.

[Hero of Legend]

As for the withering of the trees, the Great Deku Tree says that to connect the islands with forests is his dream, and then he says that Ganondorf is preventing that dream from becoming a reality. Hence, we know that Ganondorf is responsible for the withering.

Or... He's talking about Ganondorf's plan to resurect Hyrule, effectively destroying the entire Great Sea, and the Deku Tree's dream with it. Alternatively, he is referring to how Ganondorf's evil is causing his tree's to whiter, though in truth he didn't actually know about that...

[LionHarted]

^^ Again, the way trees make islands grow bigger is by absorbing the water around them. The Deku Tree's plan was to restore Hyrule. Ganondorf was going to prevent the dream of creating a better world from coming to pass.

[Raien]

Or... He's talking about Ganondorf's plan to resurect Hyrule, effectively destroying the entire Great Sea, and the Deku Tree's dream with it. Alternatively, he is referring to how Ganondorf's evil is causing his tree's to whiter, though in truth he didn't actually know about that...

That's rather unlikely. Think about why the Deku Tree wanted to connect the islands together. His dream was not the action of connecting the islands together itself, but a future for the humans living on the Great Sea. His dream is the King of Hyrule's dream; what separates them is how they try to achieve that dream. Ganondorf wants to destroy any hope of a future for the Hyrulians, and this is symbolised by the trees withering under the influence of his magic.

Edited by jhurvid, 29 March 2007 - 07:51 PM.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Oh and another thing, the "new hyrule atop an old hyrule (thanks to the deku tree)" theory makes ALttP make more sense. They talked about finding ancient artifacts of old hyrule in the underworld, which wouldn't make much sense if hyrule was a kingdom of one unbroken dynasty. I mean, China doesn't "discover" old civilizations in China that they didn't previously know about, cuz they've been there forever and everyone wrote everything down.
A "new hyrule" might be discovered that turns out to have been the old one (and perhaps people don't even know that) or maybe somebody entirely unrelated moves in to the old one, or maybe the same people hang around but thanks to the whole 'great sea' period they've mostly forgotten about it, but either way the hyrule of ALttP/LoZ has had an interruption in its period of inhabitance. Some cataclysm, eh?

[FDL]

They don't say it was in the underworld, do they? I don't think that's true.

[LionHarted]

A Link to the Past placed a lot of emphasis on people looking back at their history and events that happened centuries before (hence the NoA name change from "Triforce of the Gods" to "A Link to the Past"). When The Wind Waker was released, it essentially spread the people thin across the Great Sea, and the histories became fragmented. Presuming that the floodwaters would eventually recede (which seems to be the Deku Tree's intentions), the people could once again come together, and their histories could again be restored to their former glory. Phantom Hourglass seems to feature quite a bit of ruins-exploring (looking at the dungeon content so far), so that might suggest something along those lines, which adds a lot of credence to post-TWW ALttP.

Then again, TP features a similar emphasis on history, albeit, the casting of a sages' seal never actually happens in a child timeline, so obviously it's not something that could be remembered. We'll see, I suppose.

[FDL]

That's not the GDT's intentions, though. His intentions are to connect the islands. Also, if TWW came in between OoT and ALttP(and the sages seal is meant to be the same thing), then I'd expect the Imprisoning War to have some mention of the world flooding, a new Master Sword being created, and Ganondorf dying, being revived, getting the Triforce again, and being put back in the SR.

[LionHarted]

His intentions are to connect the islands.

The scientific concept that trees making islands larger is based on involves water draining.

[The Missing Link]

The scientific concept that trees making islands larger is based on involves water draining.

This smells like BS.

Water draining of what? The ocean?? Do you know how much water would have to be drained to gain just a few inches of turf? One inch of depth times an absolutely huge number of square MILES of area equals several metric shloads of water.

This is, of course, not to mention that trees, like animals, respirate. This means that the water that they absorbed for photosynthesis will consequentially be released once they do things like... try to live. This water will inevitably be recycled many times by other plants or animals... eventually going back downstream until it hits the ocean again. Thus, the net water absorption tends towards zero as time goes to infinity.

A more potent explanation for island formation (and indeed one that is based upon real science) involves volcanoes and tectonic plates. But what do I know?

Edited by The Missing Link, 06 April 2007 - 12:18 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Hence why I said "Magic." It doesn't make sense, so don't try and explain it.

[LionHarted]

This smells like BS.

This directly matches what the Deku Tree says will be accomplished. Whether or not its plausible on a large scale is inconsequential, since fantasy in and of itself takes natural concepts and blows them out of proportion (like a world-wide flood caused by rains, for instance), citing the involvement of the supernatural.

Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2007 - 11:37 AM.

[The Missing Link]

Hence why I said "Magic." It doesn't make sense, so don't try and explain it.

Magic is a truly acceptable answer. Calling magic "science" is not.

This directly matches what the Deku Tree says will be accomplished. Whether or not its plausible on a large scale is inconsequential, since fantasy in and of itself takes natural concepts and blows them out of proportion (like a world-wide flood caused by rains, for instance), citing the involvement of the supernatural.

If it's not plausible, don't say SCIENCE in your answer.

Also, the graphic you're using doesn't count because it refers to the local water table. On an island, the water table is... well... the ocean. :Þ

Edited by The Missing Link, 06 April 2007 - 11:48 AM.

[LionHarted]

Also, the graphic you're using doesn't count because it refers to the local water table. On an island, the water table is... well... the ocean. :Þ

So? Trees make islands bigger in the real world by lowering the water level. That trees making islands bigger is referenced in a fantasy concept suggests that the process will be the same, albeit, obviously on a much larger scale.

It is reasonable to say that this real world process was intended to be exaggerated in the Zelda fantasy setting. If you're going to argue against this being at all plausible (which you seem to be), I might ask why you debate a fantasy storyline at all, since you will not treat it as one.

Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2007 - 12:01 PM.

[Chaltab]

I agree with LionHearted... on this one.

That said, that's not my official explanation for the revival of Hyrule until I see if Phantom Hourglass does anything with it.

[Hero of Slime]

Deku Trees as well as a lot of other trees in the Zelda world have very stong magic. OoT shows how big a deku tree could possibly get, If all those little trees grew and produced more deku trees. I could see the possibility of a new land being formed.