255 replies to this topic

[The Missing Link]

So? Trees make islands bigger in the real world by lowering the water level.

Maybe... but infinitesimally bigger at best. As I said, the "lowering of the water level" in the real world is incredibly small if much of it exists at all. Remember the water cycle; the water eventually ends up back in the ocean from whence it came. The effect of the trees on the island is literally dwarfed by volcanic activity and glacial melting/freezing...

Which means that no, scientifically... in the real world, you're flat out wrong.

That trees making islands bigger is referenced in a fantasy concept suggests that the process will be the same, albeit, obviously on a much larger scale.

It is reasonable to say that this real world process was intended to be exaggerated in the Zelda fantasy setting. If you're going to argue against this being at all plausible (which you seem to be), I might ask why you debate a fantasy storyline at all, since you will not treat it as one.

And it's quite possibly more reasonable that they made the whole idea up. You know, since the Sage of Earth was a Kokiri. But again, what do I know? I'm "biased."

Now I'm not going to say that you're "wrong" because, guess what, I can't prove it. I mean, any of us can add a brickload of magic to any half-assed explanation and come up with something decent. But don't you dare claim that this stuff works in reality. Because it doesn't. Zelda world, maybe. But real world? Hell. No.

Edited by The Missing Link, 07 April 2007 - 12:22 AM.

[Vertiboy]

Maybe it will be possible when scientists invent magic...

[BourgeoisJerry]

And it's quite possibly more reasonable that they made the whole idea up. You know, since the Sage of Earth was a Kokiri. But again, what do I know? I'm "biased."

Just a nitpick, but Laruto and Medli were the Earth Sages. Fado and Makar were Wind Sages. Obviously it doesn't matter, but... well, I guess I'm a compulsive nitpicker.

[The Missing Link]

Gah, you're right.

I still think it completely non-intuitive that the Sage of Wind is NOT the one with wings... and the Sage of Earth is NOT the one who plants things. -.-

Edited by The Missing Link, 07 April 2007 - 04:29 AM.

[Fyxe]

I think that was probably the idea, TML.

[The Missing Link]

I think that was probably the idea, TML.

As I said, I'm allowing the possibility.

Unless you're putting your sentiment around the Sage of Earth/Wind thing. Then that's cool too.

[Kairu Hakubi]

I'm sure it was just because the christmas rush killed off greatfish island and its zoras/zora descendants. There were almost certainly originally 3 pearl-dungeons and 3 sage-dungeons.

[Duke Serkol]

You think Christmas rush also put the Zora's symbol on the Rito's clothes? (I agree about there likely being one more dungeon planned though)

[LionHarted]

Maybe... but infinitesimally bigger at best. As I said, the "lowering of the water level" in the real world is incredibly small if much of it exists at all. Remember the water cycle; the water eventually ends up back in the ocean from whence it came. The effect of the trees on the island is literally dwarfed by volcanic activity and glacial melting/freezing...

So, since trees are cited as the factor that actually makes the islands larger, the Deku Tree is wrong, and is only really going to make a small dent in the natural progression? If we're going to discount the in-game context, don't we typically need more in-game context to do that? I've never seen volcanic activity or glacial melting/freezing employed as geographical evolutionary factors in the Zelda series; here, though, we see trees + island expanding as factors, and you're arguing that it doesn't happen.

And it's quite possibly more reasonable that they made the whole idea up. You know, since the Sage of Earth was a Kokiri. But again, what do I know? I'm "biased."

1) Sage of Wind
2) It does work. On a much, much smaller scale.

I still think it completely non-intuitive that the Sage of Wind is NOT the one with wings... and the Sage of Earth is NOT the one who plants things. -.-

Hmm. The Koroks, not having wings, would rely on the wind more, I expect, and the Rito, having apparently been removed from their Zoran watery environment, would have moved to land. But they don't really make an effort to explain anything, yes.

[Fyxe]

here, though, we see trees + island expanding as factors, and you're arguing that it doesn't happen.

Does he say anything about making the islands larger? Not to my knowledge. He just states that he'll connect the islands.

Stop trying to use real world geography to explain any of it. The whole of Forest Haven is basically a giant tree anyway. It's fairly clear what the Deku Tree's intention was.

Hmm. The Koroks, not having wings, would rely on the wind more, I expect, and the Rito, having apparently been removed from their Zoran watery environment, would have moved to land.

That's very convoluted. I think it's fairly obvious that they picked opposites to represent their elements. Why? Don't ask me. Probably just suited the Temple puzzles better.

[LionHarted]

Does he say anything about making the islands larger?

"They can change one tiny island into a much larger island"...

Edited by LionHarted, 09 April 2007 - 10:32 AM.

[Fyxe]

Okay, I'll rephrase that. Does he say anything about making the land bigger?

He uses trees. Just like how Forest Haven is an island formed from a tree. It's that simple.

[LionHarted]

Okay, I'll rephrase that. Does he say anything about making the land bigger?

He will connect the islands by "earth and grove".

[Fyxe]

Yeeeessss, earth meaning the land that is there, and 'grove' meaning the trees between them. Therefore connecting them by the conjunction of earth and grove.

Besides, the trees represent 'earth' anyway, so that's a bit of a moot point.

[MikePetersSucks]

Plus it's obviously being done by magic anyway, so whichever way you interpret that line makes using "Reel wurldz" Geography moot and stupid.

[The Missing Link]

So, since trees are cited as the factor that actually makes the islands larger, the Deku Tree is wrong, and is only really going to make a small dent in the natural progression? If we're going to discount the in-game context, don't we typically need more in-game context to do that? I've never seen volcanic activity or glacial melting/freezing employed as geographical evolutionary factors in the Zelda series; here, though, we see trees + island expanding as factors, and you're arguing that it doesn't happen.

LionHearted, do you actually read my posts, or do you like jabberjawing just to hear yourself speak? Or better yet, do you know how to concede a point when you're beaten or do you continue jabberjawing just to think that your upside down view of the world might win by default if the other person gives up trying?

Your little clever water table explanation may work for islands[ in the middle of a river or a lake as well as for swampland. These cases deal with local water tables where the water table external to the land itself is easily able to be influenced.

But it does not work with islands in the middle of the sea... in the real world.

You'll notice that, in every prior argument about this topic, I included the bolded words several times throughout my argument. I'm NOT arguing that this CANNOT work in your made up FANTASY world, LionHearted. As I said, anyone can come up with a half-assed explanation, add three barrels of magic powder, and come up with something totally reasonable and possible.

Such is the case here. You take some argument that doesn't come close to being right for the specific case we're talking about, you add magic, and anything is bloody possible. This explanation might totally work in the Zelda realm.

What I'm telling you, however, is that it DOES NOT WORK IN OUR WORLD*.

Or, said more succinctly, RTFP.


* By the phrase "our world," I totally do not mean the word "Hyrule."

Edited by The Missing Link, 09 April 2007 - 11:46 AM.

[Raien]

In Lex's defense, TML, we know that the Deku Tree is connecting the islands with magic anyway, hence the seeds and the ceremony. Magic is not an excuse if it's supported in the game itself. That said, you are right that we don't know exactly how this magic works, but certainly there is nothing implausable about raising land.

EDIT: I misread what you were saying, TML. Never mind.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 April 2007 - 01:52 PM.

[Chaltab]

Okay, I'm not really sure what the big deal is, TML.

Lionhearted is demonstrating that something that works on a very small scale in OUR WORLD, could theoretically work on a much LARGER scale in a world with magic trees.

[Hero of Legend]

That's certainly not what he said. Anyway, the point is that if we assume this process was augmented by magic, we might as well cut the BS and say its magic outright. A theory backed by inaccurate scientific claims is no better than one made up entirely of fan fiction.

[The Missing Link]

HoL has hit it right on the nose, here.

He originally said that this was a scientific concept. I'm saying that the science he's applying is BS. He adds magic. Therefore, he trivialises the proof of concept that his idea works... meaning that his explanation is no better than at least half a dozen others.

[LionHarted]

But it does not work with islands in the middle of the sea... in the real world.

Glad to see you definitely didn't read my post.
Have a nice day.

Lionhearted is demonstrating that something that works on a very small scale in OUR WORLD, could theoretically work on a much LARGER scale in a world with magic trees.

That's certainly not what he said. Anyway, the point is that if we assume this process was augmented by magic, we might as well cut the BS and say its magic outright. A theory backed by inaccurate scientific claims is no better than one made up entirely of fan fiction.

The claim the Deku Tree made is an inaccurate scientific claim. Do you question that he made it, because then I'd start to wonder who's pulling the BS: me or you?

However, since what the Deku Tree was trying to do can actually happen on a small scale, and since his description matches the real-world small-scale process, it would only be reasonable to say that the Deku Tree would be able to take the real-world process and implement it on a, unnaturally large scale. Since, you know, his spring has magic water that makes trees grow in seconds and turns children into creatures made of wood, and he's... A TALKING TREE.

Trees make islands bigger in the real world by lowering the water level. That trees making islands bigger is referenced in a fantasy concept suggests that the process will be the same, albeit, obviously on a much larger scale. It is reasonable to say that this real world process was intended to be exaggerated in the Zelda fantasy setting.
[...]
It does work. On a much, much smaller scale.

English must not be your first language, or I must not really be typing it to you, because

[The Missing Link]

The claim the Deku Tree made is an inaccurate scientific claim. Do you question that he made it, because then I'd start to wonder who's pulling the BS: me or you?

The Deku Tree said nothing about water draining. I'd say that's 15-love, LionHearted.

However, since what the Deku Tree was trying to do can actually happen on a small scale,

...which actually can't... 30-love.

and since his description matches the real-world small-scale process,

...because it doesn't work on islands... 40-love.

it would only be reasonable to say that the Deku Tree would be able to take the real-world process and implement it on a, unnaturally large scale.

...it really isn't a reasonable conclusion at all. Game, set, match.

Since, you know, his spring has magic water that makes trees grow in seconds and turns children into creatures made of wood, and he's... A TALKING TREE.

All the more reason for him to use magic more than science, wouldn't you agree? (Do I smell a skunking??)

English must not be your first language, or I must not really be typing it to you, because

Because? Because you can't complete a sentence? Nice English. (I did! I did tawt I taw a puddy skunk!)

Edited by The Missing Link, 10 April 2007 - 03:55 AM.

[LionHarted]

TML, if you're going to pretend to argue with me, at least learn how to spell my username.

The Deku Tree said nothing about water draining.

Of course not. But that's how trees turn islands into bigger islands, whether on the scale of the Great Sea or not. If you have an alternative to pose, it is utterly fan-fabricated, and not based in any sort of reality whatsoever.

I'd say that's 15-love, LionHearted.

You're playing with yourself.
I mean that in every way possible.
The straw men must love you.

Also, this forum just cut off one of my posts. :/

Edited by LionHarted, 10 April 2007 - 10:40 AM.

[Arturo]

Lion, there is a way which actually works. The Trees make the island larger just in the same way corals make an island larger. By adding organic matter. They make it larger. It's simple, and actuallly works with what the tree said. He said nothing about draining water or lifting land. But about connecting islands. And how do you connect islands? By making them bigger. As simple as that.

And if Fyxe is authorized to write my name at her will, so is TML with his name. I personally still thought that Harted came from Hearted... I prefer it to hatred. If you want to explain where it comes from...

[Raien]

Half of this topic is about whether the Deku Tree could plausably raise the land from below Hyrule. The other half is flaming between Lex and TML. The flaming really doesn't deserve a place on this topic, so please stop it both of you.

Arturo, the "coral" argument has as much evidence for it as the "raising land" argument and in my opinion is just as much of an imagination stretch. Without evidence to justify any argument, I can't understand why people feel the need to justify their own personal preference as more "logical", "likely" or "realistic". It's all fanfic assumption at the end of the day.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 April 2007 - 10:24 AM.

[LionHarted]

The Trees make the island larger just in the same way corals make an island larger. By adding organic matter.

Except that's not a presumption that has any precedent to it. If you can show it being a factor in the real-world, then I will consider it as a probable (it's certainly plausible) factor in the Zelda world, though. At the moment, the only two real-world phenomenon that I have found to be able to have this effect (again, on a significantly smaller scale) are the displacement of the soil by the growth of the tree and the tree island phenomenon.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 April 2007 - 10:39 AM.

[LionHarted]

He's comparing the island expansion by trees to coral forming new "land". It's a legitimate point, but I don't see the precedent.

[The Missing Link]

Of course not.

Ipso facto, water draining is fanfiction also. Have a nice day.


For the record, I found your original article, LionHarted. (Sorry, I actually didn't realise I was spelling your name wrong.) They're talking about the Everglades, not some island in the Pacific. Let me quote something for you for context:

"Apparently I have either stepped into a slight depression formed a minute ago by one of the scientists, or I've experienced one of the marsh's sudden drops in depth. Either way, I am no longer ankle deep; the muddy water is now riding up to my knees. Orem flashes me a wry grin and says, 'You have to remember that in the Everglades, inches mean everything.'" [emphasis mine] (¶2) In short, what he's saying here is that these islands are extremely shallow, and every drop of water counts because the slough is shallow and the water table is nonuniform across land.

Because of that, the water cycle supercedes this because the water that is drained scientifically will evaporate into the sky... which then comes down as precipitation. The precipitation--unlike the Everglades case--will fall back into the ocean. The ocean is a uniform water table, and any rain added to it (when not interrupted by land) will gradually redistribute itself across the entire ocean, making the net effect zero.

To make YOUR theory work, sir, the water needs to disappear. And that violates--scientifically--the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy.

Edited by The Missing Link, 10 April 2007 - 11:43 AM.

[Fyxe]

What an utterly insane discussion.

[The Missing Link]

What an utterly insane discussion.

Which is why I'm giving it up past this point. You can fix many diseases, but you can't fix stupid.

Edited by The Missing Link, 10 April 2007 - 11:58 AM.