255 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

They've always made sense ever since OOX was released. If he goes back in time at the end of OOT and diverts the game's events, they never have to be killed, Split/Parallel Timeline or not.

Um, the whole point of the single timeline idea was that he never diverted the game's events. If Link just somehow 'overwrites' the future, that makes defeating Ganon ENTIRELY pointless.

At the adult ending, they're dead. So in a single timeline, Kotake and Koume would have to be dead at the end of OoT.

[Vertiboy]

You all are wrong. THIS is the correct timeline:

I think you are onto something, TML!

[MikePetersSucks]

Um, the whole point of the single timeline idea was that he never diverted the game's events. If Link just somehow 'overwrites' the future, that makes defeating Ganon ENTIRELY pointless.

At the adult ending, they're dead. So in a single timeline, Kotake and Koume would have to be dead at the end of OoT.

Says you, Fyxe. Lots of people have their own ideas on that vaguealicious ending.

[Fyxe]

Gah. *Dashing wall headbutt*

Explain, if you will, how Kotake and Koume could be alive at the adult ending, with TWW following that ending?

[MikePetersSucks]

A Wizard did it.

[FDL]

At the moment, I'm thinking that perhaps Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, and Four Swords Adventures are all different parts of the Imprisoning War. If you combine them it ends up with every element of ALttP's backstory covered. Not only that, but those three games are the ones that actually link Ganondorf to the desert in some way. I'm not sure if I want to get too into it right this econd but this is the timeline I'm thinking of at the moment(Not including TWW because it's in a parallel timeline):

TMC>fierce wars(Which the whole "Interloper" ordeal is included in)>OoT&MM>TP>FS/A>ALttP. I've yet to find a spot for the Oracles and I'm thinking I may put the first two in the Wind Waker timeline considering they're the only ones which have Hyrule's that have very little connection/resemblance to the OoT Hyrule. I also think that if I do put LoZ/AoL after TWW/PH, I'm putting the Sleeping Zelda story after TWW as well. I'm thinking that Link and Tetra don't name any of their children Zelda but one of their descendants does by coincidence. Then the AoL backstory happens. the various parts of Hyrule from the two games are composed of the islands of TWW, connected by the Deku Tree, along with the new lands founded by Link and Zelda. This explains why these two games don't really mention many of the things integral to many of the games that come after them.

[Vertiboy]

Gah. *Dashing wall headbutt*

Explain, if you will, how Kotake and Koume could be alive at the adult ending, with TWW following that ending?

Back when the timeline was OoT-ALttP-LA-TLoZ-TAoL, how did Ganon exist after LA? We don't know. Maybe he was revived. Maybe he was reborn. Who knows.

Keep in mind that the Oracles were released back in 2001, presumably before the idea of a split timeline ever existed. Even if the Oracles take place in the timeline, and Kotake and Koume are miraculously alive again, so what? We've seen worse holes in the timeline.

[Duke Serkol]

It's possible, even likely, that the split timeline existed ever since OoT. People certainly theorized it since then. And further games (TWW, TP) proved them correct (I was not one of them, I merely accepted it after TWW)

[Crazy Penguin]

I also think that if I do put LoZ/AoL after TWW/PH, I'm putting the Sleeping Zelda story after TWW as well. I'm thinking that Link and Tetra don't name any of their children Zelda but one of their descendants does by coincidence. Then the AoL backstory happens. the various parts of Hyrule from the two games are composed of the islands of TWW, connected by the Deku Tree, along with the new lands founded by Link and Zelda. This explains why these two games don't really mention many of the things integral to many of the games that come after them.

Why would any Hyrule based game take place after The Wind Waker? That's a pretty big leap in logic.

[Kairu Hakubi]

I think an ocean-island world going back to a normal one (perhaps with huge cracks in the land where the boundaries between islands used to be, eh?) is a lot smaller leap in logic than time travel resulting in two separate timelines, one where the world is boned but has a sealed ganondorf and one where the original problem is solved some other way besides time travel.

in MY day, ganondorf could only be revived if he was killed and there were ashes left.. wait, what happened at the end of ALttP? was he resealed or killed utterly with no remains? Cuz.. ALttP goes before LoZ... so.. hrrm..

[FDL]

Why would any Hyrule based game take place after The Wind Waker? That's a pretty big leap in logic.

I hate the idea in general but LoZ/AoL Hyrule is quite different. It's bigger, it's more islandy, it doesn't have many of the landmarks of the Hyrule of the other games. Plus, it's never connected to the other games in history/backstory other than the Triforce. On the other hand, it has many landmarks that could have something to do with the Great Sea(Two-Eye Rock or whatever it's called), the Master Sword isn't around, there are many parts of Hyrule not mentioned in any other game, and the Sacred Realm aspect of the Triforce is completely nonexistant. It's easier to put it here as well because it cuts down on the ressurections and deaths of Ganon.

The way I see it, LoZ/AoL are the only current games that could be after TWW without [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of ruining of stuff introduced in the other titles. For instance, in the other games I mentioned Hyrule has many of the same landmarks(Gerudo Desert, Kakariko Village, Zora's River) and a similar history(Sacred Realm, dark tribe, wars for the Triforce). However, in LoZ and AoL it's quite different. None of this history is mentioned, and the Triforce is more treated as a treasure of the Royal Family, something which it had become by the time of TWW. The aforementioned landmarks are different as well, the only consistant one being Death Mountain and the Lost Woods. I'm not opposed to LoZ/AoL being in the same Hyrule as the other games, I'm merely saying that at the moment it works cleanly in this way.

[Vertiboy]

I think an ocean-island world going back to a normal one (perhaps with huge cracks in the land where the boundaries between islands used to be, eh?) is a lot smaller leap in logic than time travel resulting in two separate timelines, one where the world is boned but has a sealed ganondorf and one where the original problem is solved some other way besides time travel.

in MY day, ganondorf could only be revived if he was killed and there were ashes left.. wait, what happened at the end of ALttP? was he resealed or killed utterly with no remains? Cuz.. ALttP goes before LoZ... so.. hrrm..

You want to know how Ganon comes back after ALttP?

g@n0n !$ 73h h4x0r2!1!!!111!!!1!!!1111

It's true!

[D~N]

If I'm not mistaken...ALttP's box or manual says that it is a prequel to LoZ/AoL. I think. I'm not quite sure...

However, I love the idea. It'd be good to finially get some games on that side of the Timeline. The only thing is, can OoX go after? That works too, right? If so, I just might move that whole chunk over....

[FDL]

If I'm not mistaken...ALttP's box or manual says that it is a prequel to LoZ/AoL. I think. I'm not quite sure...

However, I love the idea. It'd be good to finially get some games on that side of the Timeline. The only thing is, can OoX go after? That works too, right? If so, I just might move that whole chunk over....

I don't really go by that "back of the box" thing though. I think it works better like this. And yes, OoX does work after it for the most part. In fact, I believe OoX was originally designed with a remake of LoZ as one of the stories. OoX could work well considering the Triforce is not in the Sacred Realm but is reunified.

[The Missing Link]

Why would any Hyrule based game take place after The Wind Waker? That's a pretty big leap in logic.

Find a theory that doesn't have a "pretty big leap of logic" in it somewhere and you get a cookie.

[MikePetersSucks]

Mine.

[Vertiboy]

In the Oracles, Ganon does not have the Triforce of Power, but he does have a trident; it must be the magic trident from Four Swords Adventures, unless there is another canon explaination to why he is Ganon and not merely Ganondorf.

That means that it could be FSA Ganon, since that is the only Ganon we know for sure that has the magic trident. You could also say that ALttP Ganon has it. TLoZ Ganon does not have a trident, but didn't he have one in TLoZ BS I?

Edited by Vertiboy, 14 March 2007 - 10:34 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

TLoZ Ganon does not have a trident, but didn't he have one in TLoZ BS I?

Yes, that is correct.

[Crazy Penguin]

In Ocarina of Time Phantom Ganon has a trident and Ganon has two slightly smaller than usual tridents (I thought they were swords at first, but you can get a good look at them when everything goes light just before you deliver the final blow).

[Fyxe]

In the Oracles, Ganon does not have the Triforce of Power, but he does have a trident; it must be the magic trident from Four Swords Adventures, unless there is another canon explaination to why he is Ganon and not merely Ganondorf.

FSA hadn't been even concieved of by then. The trident in the Oracle games is clearly the same trident Ganon uses in ALttP. And he was Ganon because he was revived after death (at this point in the series, he had died at the end of ALttP and TLoZ, so the Oracle games must occur after Zelda II or ALttP, most likely ALttP), for the exact same reason Ganon was Ganon in the original Zelda.

Ganon is usually revived as a demon, there's no evidence of Ganon being resurrected as a human.

That means that it could be FSA Ganon, since that is the only Ganon we know for sure that has the magic trident. You could also say that ALttP Ganon has it. TLoZ Ganon does not have a trident, but didn't he have one in TLoZ BS I?

The trident in FSA is clearly based on the same trident in ALttP (similar to many other things in the game).

[Vertiboy]

FSA hadn't been even concieved of by then. The trident in the Oracle games is clearly the same trident Ganon uses in ALttP. And he was Ganon because he was revived after death (at this point in the series, he had died at the end of ALttP and TLoZ, so the Oracle games must occur after Zelda II or ALttP, most likely ALttP), for the exact same reason Ganon was Ganon in the original Zelda.

Ganon is usually revived as a demon, there's no evidence of Ganon being resurrected as a human.
The trident in FSA is clearly based on the same trident in ALttP (similar to many other things in the game).

Ganon was Ganon in the original game because Ganondorf hadn't been concieved yet. With the evidence we get in OoT, however, it is implied that Ganon is Ganon in TLoZ because he has the ToP.

It is the same idea with the trident theoretically. Though FSA hadn't bee concieved yet, FSA could have been made to explain why Ganon is Ganon in the Oracles and not Ganondorf.

[Ogmios22188]

But couldn't the reason why Ganon was Ganon in the Oracles be found in those games? Twinrova wasn't able to kill Zelda, so Ganon came back as a mindless beast.

[Chaltab]

But couldn't the reason why Ganon was Ganon in the Oracles be found in those games? Twinrova wasn't able to kill Zelda, so Ganon came back as a mindless beast.

Usually Ganon is a beast with a mind, though. Notice how he figures out your arrow-shooting plot in Twilight Princess so you have to change tactics? The fact that he even has the Trident, or clothes for that matter, doens't make much sense unless you assume that some of his traits are carried on through death.

[LionHarted]

Why would any Hyrule based game take place after The Wind Waker?

Why would the Zelda flood story not end in an unflooding, despite all the real flood stories in history which the Zelda one was based on eventually resulting in the floodwaters subsiding?

Silly.

The trident in the Oracle games is clearly the same trident Ganon uses in ALttP.

Not that I'm arguing against this (that would be silly), but none of the Tridents actually look the same.

The ALttP one is just a basic Trident.
The Oracles one has a skull on it.
The FSA one has a red jewel, and is dark-colored, not white like the other two.

So, they might be, they might not be. Now, it's probable that a Trident becomes his weapon of choice as a result of the initial Trident-wielding, but I wouldn't necessarily say they're "clearly" the same because there's "clearly" a massive design change every single time it appears.

Edited by LionHarted, 26 March 2007 - 06:27 PM.

[Chaltab]

So, they might be, they might not be. Now, it's probable that a Trident becomes his weapon of choice as a result of the initial Trident-wielding, but I wouldn't necessarily say they're "clearly" the same because there's "clearly" a massive design change every single time it appears.

Well, in that regard the Master Sword has changed from having a blood groove down the middle to not having one. I think it's more like the Trident of Power, which Ganondorf first finds in FSA, transforms him into his former self, Ganon, and it becomes a part of him, in a sense. He's been dead for who-knows-how long at the end of the Oracle games? And yet he's reincarnated fully clothed and with the Trident in hand.

[LionHarted]

Well, in that regard the Master Sword has changed from having a blood groove down the middle to not having one.

The basic detail never changed, though. It just became more elaborate as the graphics and art styles became more elaborate. The Trident actually looks completely different (aside from the basic fact that it's a trident), and things that were there in one game are replaced by different details in the next.

Just remarking on the statement that they're "clearly" the same (although a weapon that changes shape and appearance isn't exactly impossible; see the White Sword in TMC).

Edited by LionHarted, 26 March 2007 - 06:35 PM.

[FDL]

Why would the Zelda flood story not end in an unflooding, despite all the real flood stories in history which the Zelda one was based on eventually resulting in the floodwaters subsiding?

No No NO. NO UNFLOODING! The Deku Tree connected the islands together. The Hyrule of OoT, TP, FSA, and ALttP is gone forever after TWW. It's a new Hyrule in any games after TWW.

[LionHarted]

No No NO. NO UNFLOODING! The Deku Tree connected the islands together.

Let's see.

What's an island? A giant mountaintop that reaches from below the sea to above it.
How are mountains formed? Landmass is displaced over time by tectonic activity, forcing certain spots upward.
The islands of the Great Sea are over Hyrule. To connect the islands, we need to make a bigger mountain.
Does the Deku Tree just drop a big mountain on top of the Great Sea, covering Hyrule? No. The landmass (that is Hyrule) is displaced over time (in this case by the introduction of trees), forcing the land upward. The land that was once Hyrule is forced upwards to become the land that connects the islands, and so it literally rises above the waves.

The continents are rising; so is the underwater Hyrule. How else would islands be connected without magically creating more landmass (which trees do not do)?

Brush up on your basic geography, mate.

http://magazine.audu...nature0107.html

Edited by LionHarted, 26 March 2007 - 06:52 PM.

[FDL]

Nothing is ever said about the Deku Tree restoring the Hyrule of old. He specifically says connect the islands. I'm awaree trees don't create land, but in Zelda they might. Even the KoRL himself says that the Forest Haven once had many islands all around which "withered". Are you saying the land raised up and then fell back down? And since when have trees pushed up flooded lands, either?

[LionHarted]

Read the link I posted above.

A basic image of how trees expand islands is posted below. The trees both expand the already-existing landmass by displacing the mass, and absorb the water, lowering the water level.

Edited by LionHarted, 26 March 2007 - 06:54 PM.