255 replies to this topic

[Raien]

No, that's the bits of Hyrule that are already consumed by darkness, namely, well, the Dark World section of Hyrule. The Dark World itself is seperate to Hyrule, which is why you have to use portals to go there.

Which serves my point just as well. The Dark World doesn't necessarily have to be related to the Sacred Realm just because of the terms used to describe them. It is simply a world filled with evil power.

[Fyxe]

In that case, where the heck did it come from? o.o

[Raien]

In that case, where the heck did it come from? o.o

Well, we could argue that it was always there, but it didn't begin spreading to Hyrule until Ganon opened the portals. Or we could argue that it is a manifestation of the power that Ganon gained when he took the Trident,

Edited by jhurvid, 14 April 2007 - 03:40 PM.

[Fyxe]

Given the fact that FSA reuses many locations, puzzle concepts and general theme from ALttP, I don't think it's a huge stretch by any means that a place called the Dark World that behaves very very similar to the Dark World from ALttP is intended to be the same location.

Of course, FSA isn't the only game with a relatively unexplained existence of the Dark World. The Oracle games are another.

[Raien]

Given the fact that FSA reuses many locations, puzzle concepts and general theme from ALttP, I don't think it's a huge stretch by any means that a place called the Dark World that behaves very very similar to the Dark World from ALttP is intended to be the same location.

Apart from the non-existence of the Triforce in FSA. And it remains debatable whether the other ALTTP references in FSA are related to chronology.

Of course, FSA isn't the only game with a relatively unexplained existence of the Dark World. The Oracle games are another.

Agreed, and the Triforce wasn't in Ganon's hands in Oracles, which supports that the Dark World is unrelated to the Sacred Realm.

[Fyxe]

Apart from the non-existence of the Triforce in FSA. And it remains debatable whether the other ALTTP references in FSA are related to chronology.

Well, I actually believe the Triforce issue can be explained by placing FSA in a similar place to the Oracle games, after ALttP, at a time where Ganon is long dead, and the Triforce remains hidden deep in Hyrule Castle. That would explain why Ganon doesn't have the Triforce in FSA.

You're right though, it's debatable if the similarties represent timeline placement, but I still argue that the Dark World is intended to be the Dark World we already know.

Agreed, and the Triforce wasn't in Ganon's hands in Oracles, which supports that the Dark World is unrelated to the Sacred Realm.

I think it merely supports the idea that the Dark World didn't vanish entirely. The motive behind Onox and Veran is to increase the strength of the Dark World by bringing back Ganon. This indicates that the Dark World has lost a lot of influence, and implies that it's the Dark World we already know about. Because, at the time of release, what else would they be talking about? What other world does Ganon have power over that's full of evil and is called the Dark World?

[Raien]

Well, I actually believe the Triforce issue can be explained by placing FSA in a similar place to the Oracle games, after ALttP, at a time where Ganon is long dead, and the Triforce remains hidden deep in Hyrule Castle. That would explain why Ganon doesn't have the Triforce in FSA.

You're right though, it's debatable if the similarties represent timeline placement, but I still argue that the Dark World is intended to be the Dark World we already know.

I think it's simpler just to say the Triforce is in the Sacred Realm and unknown to the characters in FSA. But all to one's own interpretation; I can't stop you believing what you want.

I think it merely supports the idea that the Dark World didn't vanish entirely. The motive behind Onox and Veran is to increase the strength of the Dark World by bringing back Ganon. This indicates that the Dark World has lost a lot of influence, and implies that it's the Dark World we already know about. Because, at the time of release, what else would they be talking about? What other world does Ganon have power over that's full of evil and is called the Dark World?

I'll be honest here, I don't consider the Oracles games reliable parts of the timeline. I never see anything in the games that actually relate consistently to their respective entities in the mainstream games, apart from the namesakes. So please understand if I don't rely on Oracles as evidence for game placement (even though I said it was evidence before to support the Dark World not being the Sacred Realm. I retract my statement and I know I'm a hypocrite).

Edited by jhurvid, 14 April 2007 - 04:39 PM.

[Chaltab]

I think it's simpler just to say the Triforce is in the Sacred Realm and unknown to the characters in FSA. But all to one's own interpretation; I can't stop you believing what you want.

I agree on this point. Given the island nature of Hyrule in FSA, considerable time has got to pass between it and ALTTP. Furthermore, though it's impossible to prove, FSA seems to include the origin story of Ganon's evil trident. (And for evidence that the Trident and Ganon are intrinsically linked, just look at the Oracle games. Ganon is literally reborn with the Trident in hand.)

I'll be honest here, I don't consider the Oracles games reliable parts of the timeline. I never see anything in the games that actually relate consistently to their respective entities in the mainstream games, apart from the namesakes. So please understand if I don't rely on Oracles as evidence for game placement (even though I said it was evidence before to support the Dark World not being the Sacred Realm. I retract my statement and I know I'm a hypocrite).

Well, that's because the Oracle games take place entirely outside of the nation of Hyrule yet still within the same reality. My timeline places them directly before Link's Awakening for several reasons. The raft link leaves on at the end segues nicely into the start of LA. Link fought both Ganon and an Aghanim look-alike in the Oracle series, explaining how they can exist in his dream. And Zelda and Link seem to already know each other in ALTTP, while they clearly don't during the events of the Oracle games.

Granted, this raised the question of how the Triforce got from the shrine you find it in during the opening cutscenes of the Oracle games to the Dark World.

I argue that the Triforce wouldn't have just been out in the open like it appears to be, that instead it's in a place that only Link can access it, that only he can find. Otherwise there would be evil men their trying to steal it and good men there trying to guard it. My explanation is that Ganon, sealed in the Dark Realm, used his power to take it from that pocket dimension and placed it in the Pyramid of Power. Granted, there's no canonical evidence for or against this, so it's entirely speculation.

[Fyxe]

I agree on this point. Given the island nature of Hyrule in FSA, considerable time has got to pass between it and ALTTP. Furthermore, though it's impossible to prove, FSA seems to include the origin story of Ganon's evil trident. (And for evidence that the Trident and Ganon are intrinsically linked, just look at the Oracle games. Ganon is literally reborn with the Trident in hand.)

Firstly, who says that Hyrule in ALttP isn't surrounded by ocean? We have no idea, but considering Hyrule is always surrounded by ocean, and Link travels via the ocean away from Hyrule in LA, we could assume there's at least a significant amount of sea nearby. As for the trident, the text actually seems to imply that the trident has belonged to someone well before FSA, and Ganon is called an ancient demon. This, like the Oracles, seems to rely on Ganon being dead for an extended period of time.

The raft link leaves on at the end segues nicely into the start of LA.

Except that Link doesn't travel by raft in LA.

Link fought both Ganon and an Aghanim look-alike in the Oracle series, explaining how they can exist in his dream.

But it wasn't Agahnim. The one in LA is specifically referred to as Agahnim's Shadow. Also, visually, Link in LA is identical to that of ALttP (in cutscenes and official art) and is even referred to fulfilling the prophesy of the Legendary Hero, identical to Link from ALttP.

And Zelda and Link seem to already know each other in ALTTP,

Um, what? No they don't.

while they clearly don't during the events of the Oracle games.

So? It's a different Link and Zelda.

I argue that the Triforce wouldn't have just been out in the open like it appears to be, that instead it's in a place that only Link can access it, that only he can find.

Um, well, it's in Hyrule Castle.

Otherwise there would be evil men their trying to steal it and good men there trying to guard it. My explanation is that Ganon, sealed in the Dark Realm, used his power to take it from that pocket dimension and placed it in the Pyramid of Power. Granted, there's no canonical evidence for or against this, so it's entirely speculation.

Seems way too convoluted if you ask me.

[Chaltab]

Firstly, who says that Hyrule in ALttP isn't surrounded by ocean? We have no idea, but considering Hyrule is always surrounded by ocean, and Link travels via the ocean away from Hyrule in LA, we could assume there's at least a significant amount of sea nearby. As for the trident, the text actually seems to imply that the trident has belonged to someone well before FSA, and Ganon is called an ancient demon. This, like the Oracles, seems to rely on Ganon being dead for an extended period of time.

The Trident belonged to whoever built the pyramid in the desert. That doesn't nessicarily mean it belogned to Ganon.

Except that Link doesn't travel by raft in LA.

We only get a very vague picture of it in LA, and just because he left Holodrom/Labrynna on a raft doesn't mean he sailed all the way back to Hyrule on one. LA Link is clearly older than Oracle Link. Link's Awakening opening

But it wasn't Agahnim. The one in LA is specifically referred to as Agahnim's Shadow. Also, visually, Link in LA is identical to that of ALttP (in cutscenes and official art) and is even referred to fulfilling the prophesy of the Legendary Hero, identical to Link from ALttP.

Not sure on the Aghanim point, as I've never owned LA. As for the art work, the link from Oracle looks like a younger version of ALTTP Link, and even more so in the revised artwork from the GBA version.

Um, what? No they don't.

Zelda knows who Link is; as soon as he arrives, she address him by name and trusts him enough to follow him around. There's no indication that it's their first meeting.

So? It's a different Link and Zelda.

How can we know without an 'official' timeline? Obviously there are cases where it's obvious Link and Zelda are new incarnations, but in this case there's nothing that makes this obvious.

Um, well, it's in Hyrule Castle.

Um.. What? The shrine it's in is in a castle, but this castle is surrounded by forrest and near a large body of water. Hyrule Castle was never depicted this way, and as I said, there's nobody there but Link, implying seclusion and anonymity. Things that Hyrule Castle certainly wouldn't have.

Edited by Chaltab, 14 April 2007 - 07:33 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

The manual of OoS does say that the triforce was held in hyrule castle.

[Chaltab]

The manual of OoS does say that the triforce was held in hyrule castle.

That makes so little sense my brain hurts, but whatever.

[Fyxe]

The Trident belonged to whoever built the pyramid in the desert. That doesn't nessicarily mean it belogned to Ganon.

No, it just belonged to the King of Darkness, and Ganon is an ancient demon reborn. No connection at all, of course not.

We only get a very vague picture of it in LA,

We get a very good picture, actually, a close up.

and just because he left Holodrom/Labrynna on a raft doesn't mean he sailed all the way back to Hyrule on one.

It's said specifically to be *his* ship, mind you.

It wasn't a raft at the end of the Oracles anyway, it was just a considerably smaller ship.

LA Link is clearly older than Oracle Link. Link's Awakening opening

That's because it's Link from ALttP, doy.

Not sure on the Aghanim point, as I've never owned LA.

Then why the HELL are you trying to place it?

As for the art work, the link from Oracle looks like a younger version of ALTTP Link, and even more so in the revised artwork from the GBA version.

ALttP following LA and the Oracles makes about zero sense whatsoever. Have you actually played these games?

Zelda knows who Link is; as soon as he arrives, she address him by name and trusts him enough to follow him around. There's no indication that it's their first meeting.

This quote says different.

I am a prisoner in the dungeon of the castle.
My name is Zelda.

Also, if you had actually, y'know, read the manual and played the game you'd realise that they clearly do not know each other.

How can we know without an 'official' timeline? Obviously there are cases where it's obvious Link and Zelda are new incarnations, but in this case there's nothing that makes this obvious.

It relies on Ganon being dead and the Triforce being in Hyrule Castle. This can only occur after ALttP or Zelda II. It also relies on Link not knowing who Zelda is, so it must be a new Link and Zelda.

Um.. What? The shrine it's in is in a castle, but this castle is surrounded by forrest and near a large body of water. Hyrule Castle was never depicted this way, and as I said, there's nobody there but Link, implying seclusion and anonymity. Things that Hyrule Castle certainly wouldn't have.

I take it you never finished the Oracle games either? Yet you feel you know exactly what castle it is. Other than the fact that it looks virtually identical to Hyrule Castle as depicted in OoT, we see it multiple times at the end of the game, with Zelda in it. It's Hyrule Castle, the manual states so. And there's nobody in that ROOM but Link, obviously because he snuck in, presumably.

Edited by Fyxe, 15 April 2007 - 04:47 AM.

[FDL]

I can't find my manuals for the Oracles, does it say why Link was in Hyrule Castle? Anyway, on the topic of the FSA-ALttP connection, I'd actually say FSA is first. Some things point to this, such as the maidens actually having powers(when they don't have much power left by ALttP), the Hylian Knights are around when they're dead in ALttP, and the fact that some places that appear to be shared by the two games seem to be in ruins by ALttP, among other things.

[LionHarted]

"A strange force drew Link to Hyrule Castle."

(The Triforce.)

If I had to say, I'd say Oracles Link is older, since he has the Triforce mark (which means he's most likely at least sixteen). ALttP/LA Link had no mark.

Edited by LionHarted, 15 April 2007 - 09:35 AM.

[Fyxe]

Anyway, on the topic of the FSA-ALttP connection, I'd actually say FSA is first. Some things point to this, such as the maidens actually having powers(when they don't have much power left by ALttP),

Correction, we don't see them openly using many powers in ALttP, but they certainly have power enough to break the seal on the Dark World and also the power, despite being locked inside Crystals, to break the barrier around Ganon's Tower.

Besides, FSA was released after OoT, so it'd make sense if their powers were a little more obvious, similar to the Sages in OoT. I doubt it was ever a conscious choice to make them more powerful to imply a certain timeline placement.

the Hylian Knights are around when they're dead in ALttP,

They should have died in the Imprisoning War, so I don't really see this as a real issue. They shouldn't be in FSA anyway if it's the same set of knights. They're just knights, after all, and there's only four of them, isn't it equally possible that it's a new set of Hylian Knights was set up after ALttP? Besides, we don't know if they're actually called the 'family of knights' in the Japanese game, as the ones in ALttP were.

and the fact that some places that appear to be shared by the two games seem to be in ruins by ALttP, among other things.

Eh? Most of the reused places are ruins in both games.

LionHarted, it's a different Triforce mark, and serves a different purpose. The Triforce mark that appears in Zelda II can ONLY exist after the Triforce of Courage has been hidden away, which clearly hasn't happened, unless you see the Oracle games as occuring after Zelda II. And even if it does, that still means the mark is a different mark entirely, because the ToC has already been found.

Edited by Fyxe, 15 April 2007 - 09:47 AM.

[FDL]

Correction, we don't see them openly using many powers in ALttP, but they certainly have power enough to break the seal on the Dark World and also the power, despite being locked inside Crystals, to break the barrier around Ganon's Tower.

Correction, one of the maidens said that the power of the sages was barely in their bloodline anymore or something similar. That's not exactly what it says but believe me, it's said that they don't have many powers.

They should have died in the Imprisoning War, so I don't really see this as a real issue. They shouldn't be in FSA anyway if it's the same set of knights. They're just knights, after all, and there's only four of them, isn't it equally possible that it's a new set of Hylian Knights was set up after ALttP? Besides, we don't know if they're actually called the 'family of knights' in the Japanese game, as the ones in ALttP were.

I can't really argue because there's little proof either way but I think that the intent of the game developers is that they're the same. I mean, you seem to be a fan of the ideas that OoT=IW and TR=SR, but you don't think that many other things that are portrayed far more heabily as the same are? That seems a bit hypocritical.

Eh? Most of the reused places are ruins in both games

Not the Eastern Palace area. One's a village and one's ruins. Plus, if Hyrule is supposedly on the decline(as it is supposed to be if you place LoZ after ALttP), then I don't see why you'd place a game in between the two in which there are many more villages and people.

LionHarted, it's a different Triforce mark, and serves a different purpose. The Triforce mark that appears in Zelda II can ONLY exist after the Triforce of Courage has been hidden away, which clearly hasn't happened, unless you see the Oracle games as occuring after Zelda II. And even if it does, that still means the mark is a different mark entirely, because the ToC has already been found.

Right. The AoL mark is completely different than the other crests. It appeared because of the King's spell, while the crests in the other games are caused by different circumstances.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 15 April 2007 - 10:03 AM.

[LionHarted]

The Triforce mark that appears in Zelda II can ONLY exist after the Triforce of Courage has been hidden away, which clearly hasn't happened, unless you see the Oracle games as occuring after Zelda II. And even if it does, that still means the mark is a different mark entirely, because the ToC has already been found.

1) I do.
2) No one said there would be no more marks after the ToC was found.

[The Missing Link]

Correction, one of the maidens said that the power of the sages was barely in their bloodline anymore or something similar. That's not exactly what it says but believe me, it's said that they don't have many powers.

I believe this is the quote you're looking for:

MAIDEN IN ICE PALACE
They say the Hylia people controlled mysterious powers, as did the seven wise men. But the blood of the Hylia has become thin over time. We who carry the blood of the seven wise men do not possess strong power any more, either. Our powers will increase if we mix the courage of the Knights with the wisdom of the wise men. Only a short time remains until the gate at the castle linking the worlds opens completely. If you defeat Ganon, this world will vanish and
the Triforce will wait for a new holder. I believe in you...

[Chaltab]

No, it just belonged to the King of Darkness, and Ganon is an ancient demon reborn. No connection at all, of course not.

The King of Darkness could just as easily describe a leader of the Dark Tribe, but that's besides the point. Even if some anceint version of Ganon first forged the Trident, the FSA incarnation got the version at that point and assumed the form of Ganon. Oracle and ALTTP Ganon were both killed holding the Trident, so they certainly couldn't have placed it in a the pyramid.

We get a very good picture, actually, a close up.
It's said specifically to be *his* ship, mind you.

A close up of LINK, not the vessle itself.

It wasn't a raft at the end of the Oracles anyway, it was just a considerably smaller ship.

If that's the case it only makes my argument stronger.

That's because it's Link from ALttP, doy.

Not arguing about that.

Then why the HELL are you trying to place it?

Why the HELL wouldn't I try and place it? Link's Awakening takes place entirely within a dream excep the opening and closing cutscenes; it's not like there are any paradigm-shifting plot points in it.

ALttP following LA and the Oracles makes about zero sense whatsoever. Have you actually played these games?

I've played all the way through both Oracles and a ALTTP, thank you very much. Oracles show Twinrova's failed attempt to revive Ganon. Ganon regains his strength after his defeat and returns several years later to take over Hyrule with is puppet Aghanim. It's not that complicated.

This quote says different.

That's not when they meet, though! She sent out a telepathic message that Link's uncle obviously heard the same time Link did; hence, she was identifying herself to whoever heard the message. Link and his uncle happened to both be recipients.

Also, if you had actually, y'know, read the manual and played the game you'd realise that they clearly do not know each other.

I've played the opening to ALTTP several times to make sure I wasn't imaginging it. Zelda address him as Link as soon as he shows up in their cell. It's not the first time they've met, and even if the manual (which I don't have) implies it is, Oracle would retcon that away via my timeline.

It relies on Ganon being dead and the Triforce being in Hyrule Castle. This can only occur after ALttP or Zelda II. It also relies on Link not knowing who Zelda is, so it must be a new Link and Zelda.

It is a new Zelda and Link; however, Ganon being dead isn't explicit. They're trying to revive him from his previous defeat, but that doesn't mean it was defeat by death. Furthermore, the sacrifice they were using to return Ganon to the mortal plain was Zelda, and it was Zelda's magic that defeated Ganon in FSA.

I take it you never finished the Oracle games either?

I finished them both, actually. Trying to undermine my credbility isn't going to get you anywhere.

Yet you feel you know exactly what castle it is. Other than the fact that it looks virtually identical to Hyrule Castle as depicted in OoT, we see it multiple times at the end of the game, with Zelda in it. It's Hyrule Castle, the manual states so. And there's nobody in that ROOM but Link, obviously because he snuck in, presumably.

Okay, assuming that is IS Hyrule castle, which seems impossible given the location, it still only changes the details, not the overall sequence of events. Link entered this room in Hyrule Castle; the Triforce sent him on a quest. Before he returned, the Triforce was stolen and taken to the Dark Realm. LA and ALTTP happen. Link defeats an TRUE incarnation of Ganon that isn't just a raging beast and kills him, thus ending Ganon's existence until the LOZ era, then uses the Triforce to undo Ganon's damage.

Reguardless, it's entirely inconsistent with the Triforce's behavior to simply sit there in the middle of Hyrule castle. After the King made his wish in TWW, it flew off and vanished. In Ocarina and TP, it stayed inside the bodies of the Chosen for the majority of the game. Hence my argument that wherever the Triforce is during that cutscene, it's not in 'normal' space-time.

Edited by Chaltab, 15 April 2007 - 04:30 PM.

[FDL]

I believe this is the quote you're looking for:

MAIDEN IN ICE PALACE
They say the Hylia people controlled mysterious powers, as did the seven wise men. But the blood of the Hylia has become thin over time. We who carry the blood of the seven wise men do not possess strong power any more, either. Our powers will increase if we mix the courage of the Knights with the wisdom of the wise men. Only a short time remains until the gate at the castle linking the worlds opens completely. If you defeat Ganon, this world will vanish and
the Triforce will wait for a new holder. I believe in you...

Yeah, I think that's it.

[LionHarted]

Chaltab makes a good point. Ganon doesn't necessarily have to be dead.

"Follow the light of the three flames! Emerge now from the darkest depths! Emerge Ganon, Gerudo King!!!"

But I'm hesitant to say that he's not, since other quotes have you preventing them from "resurrecting" him.

Reguardless, it's entirely inconsistent with the Triforce's behavior to simply sit there in the middle of Hyrule castle.

And yet that's what happened.

"One day in Hyrule, a strange force drew Link deep within Hyrule castle, where he found the Triforce resting, glittering brilliantly as it awaited him."

Edited by LionHarted, 15 April 2007 - 04:56 PM.

[Chaltab]

I dunno. I've never seen manuals as solid evidence given how useless they are in the age of cutscenes and tutorials, (thought that easily just could be because I always lose them. )

... But I'll take your word for it on this one. Consider my earlier theory about the Triforce shrine being independent of Hyrule Castle stricken from the record.

But I'm hesitant to say that he's not, since other quotes have you preventing them from "resurrecting" him.

Well, it's equally possible that Link's allies and even Twinrova don't know the circumstances of Ganon's prior defeat. If it is indeed the FSA final encounter, only Link, Zelda and the Maidens were present, and considering where the Four Sword ends up by ALTTP, it seems the details were soon forgotten. (Assuming that the Palace of the Four Sword bonus dungeon is canon.)

Edited by Chaltab, 15 April 2007 - 05:26 PM.

[Fyxe]

The King of Darkness could just as easily describe a leader of the Dark Tribe, but that's besides the point. Even if some anceint version of Ganon first forged the Trident, the FSA incarnation got the version at that point and assumed the form of Ganon. Oracle and ALTTP Ganon were both killed holding the Trident, so they certainly couldn't have placed it in a the pyramid.

Ganon has followers. Besides, he dies in a pyramid in the first place. It's hard to avoid that connection.

A close up of LINK, not the vessle itself.

The ship is shown perfectly well.

If that's the case it only makes my argument stronger.

No, it doesn't.

Why the HELL wouldn't I try and place it? Link's Awakening takes place entirely within a dream excep the opening and closing cutscenes; it's not like there are any paradigm-shifting plot points in it.

You can't understand the context of a game, the homages, stylistic comparisons and such if you've never played it. There are many homages to ALttP within it.

I've played all the way through both Oracles and a ALTTP, thank you very much. Oracles show Twinrova's failed attempt to revive Ganon. Ganon regains his strength after his defeat and returns several years later to take over Hyrule with is puppet Aghanim. It's not that complicated.

Um... Ganon is sealed in the Dark World in ALttP's backstory. He's DEAD at the end of the Oracle games.

That's not when they meet, though! She sent out a telepathic message that Link's uncle obviously heard the same time Link did; hence, she was identifying herself to whoever heard the message. Link and his uncle happened to both be recipients.

Um, Link's uncle was awake and had his sword and shield ready. He was already prepared. If you read the manual to ALttP, it's CLEAR Link and Zelda don't know each other.

I've played the opening to ALTTP several times to make sure I wasn't imaginging it. Zelda address him as Link as soon as he shows up in their cell. It's not the first time they've met, and even if the manual (which I don't have) implies it is, Oracle would retcon that away via my timeline.

Ah, how fucking convenient, YOUR timeline retcons it because you say so.

Zelda's prophetic and telepathic. That's how she knew his name. It's a fact that Link doesn't know who Zelda was when she sent the message.

It is a new Zelda and Link; however, Ganon being dead isn't explicit. They're trying to revive him from his previous defeat, but that doesn't mean it was defeat by death.

You're joking, right? Ganon's dead. The Triforce is in Hyrule Castle. This can ONLY occur after ALttP at least. You can't revive someone who's not dead, and certainly not if you're reviving them without their mind. Where the heck is the rest of Ganon? I mean, jeez.

Furthermore, the sacrifice they were using to return Ganon to the mortal plain was Zelda, and it was Zelda's magic that defeated Ganon in FSA.

You do realise that FSA was realised AGES after the Oracle games? Are you honestly saying they planned it that far ahead?

Okay, assuming that is IS Hyrule castle, which seems impossible given the location,

Um, it's in Hyrule, for heck's sake.

it still only changes the details, not the overall sequence of events.

No, it's a big difference between the Triforce being in the Sacred Realm to it being in Hyrule Castle.

Link entered this room in Hyrule Castle; the Triforce sent him on a quest. Before he returned, the Triforce was stolen and taken to the Dark Realm. LA and ALTTP happen.

...THAT DOESN'T WORK FOR ONE SINGLE SECOND. There's so many holes in that theory I can't be arsed to point them all out. Play the games again. It doesn't work.

Reguardless, it's entirely inconsistent with the Triforce's behavior to simply sit there in the middle of Hyrule castle.

Erm, considering that's how it began in Zelda II's backstory and at the end of Zelda II, then it's perfectly acceptable behavior. The Triforce sits wherever the hell it's 'owner' wants it to.

After the King made his wish in TWW, it flew off and vanished. In Ocarina and TP, it stayed inside the bodies of the Chosen for the majority of the game. Hence my argument that wherever the Triforce is during that cutscene, it's not in 'normal' space-time.

I take it you're choosing to completely ignore the original games in the series then.

[Chaltab]

Ganon has followers. Besides, he dies in a pyramid in the first place. It's hard to avoid that connection.

The Pyramid in FSA is in the middle of a desert in the Light World of Hyrule. The Pyramid of Power is in the middle of the sacred realm.

The ship is shown perfectly well.

It's shown in silhouette in the first shot, and just Link and the mast in the second. That's not 'perfectly well.'

No, it doesn't.

Yes it does. If I was mistaken about the vessel in Oracle being a raft, then the fact that it's a ship in LA is a moot point.

You can't understand the context of a game, the homages, stylistic comparisons and such if you've never played it. There are many homages to ALttP within it.

Well, yeah. It's hard to homage a game that's not been made yet. And again, I point out that the entire thing was a magically-induced dream.

Um... Ganon is sealed in the Dark World in ALttP's backstory. He's DEAD at the end of the Oracle games.

Exactly. Ganon was in the Sacred Realm/Dark World since the events of FSA. Twinrova tried to summon him, but failed, and only summoned a raging beast incarnation of Ganon, not his spirit. They just got some of his power and his animal instincts.

Um, Link's uncle was awake and had his sword and shield ready. He was already prepared. If you read the manual to ALttP, it's CLEAR Link and Zelda don't know each other.

Once again, I don't trust manuals when they contradict what is shown in the game.

Ah, how fucking convenient, YOUR timeline retcons it because you say so.

Yup. Timelines are about figuring out how the games may go together, and all of them involve some ammount of fan-fictiony explanation. The best timeline I could come up with makes Oracles retcons of what happened before ALTTP and LA. Your timeline assumes that FSA happens after ALTTP despite all the evidence in the game that FSA comes before.

Zelda's prophetic and telepathic. That's how she knew his name. It's a fact that Link doesn't know who Zelda was when she sent the message.

How is that a fact? Zelda introduced herself because anyone with Hylian blood could have heard her message. The fact that Link got there first is because he's the chosen hero.

You're joking, right? Ganon's dead. The Triforce is in Hyrule Castle. This can ONLY occur after ALttP at least. You can't revive someone who's not dead, and certainly not if you're reviving them without their mind. Where the heck is the rest of Ganon? I mean, jeez.

Still in the Dark World. Twinrova WOULD have summoned him out of it and into Zelda's corpse, but they failed and only managed to take his animal instincts. As for the Triforce being in Hyrule Castle, there are several points where it could have been there.

You do realise that FSA was realised AGES after the Oracle games? Are you honestly saying they planned it that far ahead?

Three years hardly qualifies as "Ages" but even so, I'm not saying they planned it. I'm saying that given what we already know about the Zelda timeline from, FSA is as good an explanation as any for why Twinrova needed Zelda as the key to Ganon's revival when in ALTTP he was killed by Link and Link alone.

...THAT DOESN'T WORK FOR ONE SINGLE SECOND. There's so many holes in that theory I can't be arsed to point them all out. Play the games again. It doesn't work.

I played the key story parts of the games again to check to see if it works. There are obvious symantics problems given the fact that ALTTP was made eight years before Oracle and 11 before FSA, but I've been attempting to work these out. Though it's clear you're not satisfied by said attempts.

Erm, considering that's how it began in Zelda II's backstory and at the end of Zelda II, then it's perfectly acceptable behavior. The Triforce sits wherever the hell it's 'owner' wants it to.... I take it you're choosing to completely ignore the original games in the series then.

No, I'm not. The Triforce sitting on its hands only happened before with individual pieces--the broken ToC in Majora's Mask, the shattered ToW in the original game, and the sealed up ToC in the second game. Additionally, there's no way to know what the Triforce does AFTER the events of Zelda II and ALTTP since the series and its mythology were still in their infancy. If TWW is any indication, it would fly away after Link and/or Sleeping Zelda made a wish on it.

I suppose you can argue that it was a special case for some reason, but the King didn't say a thing about the Triforce scattering to the winds, he simply made the wish and the Triforce flew away.

Edited by Chaltab, 17 April 2007 - 04:12 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's shown in silhouette in the first shot, and just Link and the mast in the second. That's not 'perfectly well.'

But any dunce can see perfectly well that's not a raft, blowing the LA/OOX connection.

Well, yeah. It's hard to homage a game that's not been made yet. And again, I point out that the entire thing was a magically-induced dream.

LTTP was published first, dummy.

the broken ToC in Majora's Mask

What?

[LionHarted]

I'm of the opinion that the Triforce returns to the Sacred Realm just as it was when Ganon was destroyed after the King of Red Lions wishes on it, for one of the following reasons:

1) The King is dead/dying, and so the Triforce returns to await a new owner
2) The King's wish begins to be fulfilled immediately, so the Triforce returns to await a new owner

[Chaltab]

But any dunce can see perfectly well that's not a raft, blowing the LA/OOX connection.

I don't have a video showing the ending of OOX; I recall it being a raft, but I tend to misremeber things all the time. Fyxe says it's a ship at the end of Oracle, making this a moot point if she's right.

LTTP was published first, dummy.

I was talking about Oracle, which should have been clear from the context. Dummy.

What?

Gah! I misspoke. The broken Triforce of Courage in The Wind Waker was a special case because it was 1) broken, and 2) a single piece. (Since, I assume, the Hero of Time leaving for Termina is what caused the ToC to split, I randomly had MM on my brain.)

Edited by Chaltab, 18 April 2007 - 06:14 PM.

[Showsni]

It is a ship. They don't look exactly the same, though. I'll go and get pictures...

 laooxcomp.JPG   60K   13 downloads

Edited by Showsni, 18 April 2007 - 06:23 PM.

[Chaltab]

It is a ship. They don't look exactly the same, though. I'll go and get pictures...

 laooxcomp.JPG   60K   13 downloads

Thanks, Shownsi.

They seem fairly similar. The hulls are pretty much indistinguishable, but that doesnt't mean much with low-res graphics. The main difference is the sails, which can be taken off and replaced anyway.

Edited by Chaltab, 18 April 2007 - 06:29 PM.