255 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

Since LA Link has reefed his sails (smart thing to do in a storm, no doubt) we can't compare them too easily... It could probably go either way. What are we talking about, now?

[Chaltab]

Since LA Link has reefed his sails (smart thing to do in a storm, no doubt) we can't compare them too easily... It could probably go either way. What are we talking about, now?

Whether or not the ending of the Oracle games could theoretically segue, eventually, into the start of Link's Awakening. My timeline basically places LA a year or so after OOX, when Link is finally on his way back to Hyrule after training abroad.

Edited by Chaltab, 18 April 2007 - 06:43 PM.

[LionHarted]

If I had to say, I'd say that Oracles should come after LA, not between ALttP and LA.

LA Link had just fulfilled a prophecy when he went on his journey, which doesn't bode well with some big event that obviously spanned several years (don't believe me? Watch Bipin and Blossom's child grow all the way to young adulthood right before your eyes!) in-between ALttP and LA. Since LA Link was "preparing for the next threat to his homeland" (as opposed to actually combating one, lol), it would be more reasonable, IMO, to say that the events of Oracles were that next threat.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 April 2007 - 06:46 PM.

[Chaltab]

If I had to say, I'd say that Oracles should come after LA, not between ALttP and LA.

LA Link had just fulfilled a prophecy when he went on his journey, which doesn't bode well with some big event that obviously spanned several years (don't believe me? Watch Bipin and Blossom's child grow all the way to young adulthood right before your eyes!) in-between ALttP and LA. Since LA Link was "preparing for the next threat to his homeland" (as opposed to actually combating one, lol), it would be more reasonable, IMO, to say that the events of Oracles were that next threat.

I put it the opposite way; Link fulfilled the prophecy by defeating Raging Beast Ganon in the Oracle games, went out and trained, encountered the Wind Fish, and came back home to his homeland in time for the next threat--which happened to be Aghanim and, behind him, the real, non-mindless form of Ganon who was finally trying to break the Sages Seal.

As for Bippin and Blossom's child, I think that was clearly a joke and a way to play with the linked game mechanic. The key characters in the game speak as though there was no signficant time lapsed between the Ages and Seasons quests.

Also, Oracles can definitely NOT happen after ALTTP and contain the same Link, because Link and Zelda haven't met yet in Oracle, while the game is vague on that point in ALTTP.

[LionHarted]

I put it the opposite way; Link fulfilled the prophecy by defeating Raging Beast Ganon in the Oracle games

What prophecy?

As for Bippin and Blossom's child, I think that was clearly a joke and a way to play with the linked game mechanic.

Except the child grows outside of a linked game, too.

Oracles can definitely NOT happen after ALTTP and contain the same Link, because Link and Zelda haven't met yet in Oracle, while the game is vague on that point in ALTTP.

It wouldn't be the first time in the series when multiple Zeldas have existed at the same time.

[Chaltab]

What prophecy?

The one mentioned in the LA back story, I suppose. I was just parroting you.

Except the child grows outside of a linked game, too.

Hm? I don't recall that happening. He certainly can't canonically grow to adulthood, though, when Link is depicted as being in his early teens in both games.

[LionHarted]

The one mentioned in the LA back story, I suppose. I was just parroting you.

The one that wasn't in the Oracle games?

He certainly can't canonically grow to adulthood, though, when Link is depicted as being in his early teens in both games.

Emphasis mine.

[Showsni]

Arguing against OoX-LA is very hard, because LA practically happens in a vacuum. All we're really given is how Link fulfilled the prophecy, told in the manual. Even the appearance on enemies and so on can be explained away as it's just a dream. There's not much solid evidence, and what there is is is partially outweighed by evidence the other way thrown in by Capcom (the ship at the end, seemingly reusing Marin's sprite for Zelda...)

Arguing against OoX-ALttP (same Link) should be easier, though. For instance, in ALttP the knights of Hyrule are pretty much wiped out - Link and his uncle seem to be the sole survivors. In OoS, though, there's a whole troupe of Hylian knights still. OoX would really work better with Ganon dead, but he's still alive before ALttP. In ALttP, the triforce is in Ganon's possession, and it's unlikely it would defy its master to aid his enemy stop his resurrection, or even be able to get to Hyrule castle.

[The Missing Link]

Arguing against OoX-LA is very hard, because LA practically happens in a vacuum. All we're really given is how Link fulfilled the prophecy, told in the manual. Even the appearance on enemies and so on can be explained away as it's just a dream. There's not much solid evidence, and what there is is is partially outweighed by evidence the other way thrown in by Capcom (the ship at the end, seemingly reusing Marin's sprite for Zelda...)

As point, I think Miyamoto has always traditionally said something to the effect of Link's Awakening can occur anywhere after dot dot dot. Probably because of this very point.

Arguing against OoX-ALttP (same Link) should be easier, though. For instance, in ALttP the knights of Hyrule are pretty much wiped out - Link and his uncle seem to be the sole survivors. In OoS, though, there's a whole troupe of Hylian knights still. OoX would really work better with Ganon dead, but he's still alive before ALttP. In ALttP, the triforce is in Ganon's possession, and it's unlikely it would defy its master to aid his enemy stop his resurrection, or even be able to get to Hyrule castle.

Knights of Hyrule? In OoS? Did I miss something somewhere?

Also, I think you're probably giving the Triforce too much credit for a potential OoX-LttP connection. Not that I believe it myself, but the Triforce wasn't able to physically drag the seven maidens into the Dark World; a physical presence had to do that job. Thus, I would almost guarantee that such a physical presence would also have to sink Link's ship... especially since the prophecy says that a hero must appear to challenge Ganondorf.

[LionHarted]

Din's dancing troupe is apparently made up of Hylian Knights. However, this fact is hardly stressed, and the term "Hyrulean" (as in, the classification of people) hadn't even been coined yet, so...

Edited by LionHarted, 19 April 2007 - 11:08 AM.

[The Missing Link]

Din's dancing troupe is apparently made up of Hylian Knights. However, this fact is hardly stressed, and the term "Hyrulean" (as in, the classification of people) hadn't even been coined yet, so...

Ah ha... the one place I wasn't thinking.

You know, I'm wondering... and pardon me for thinking craziness aloud. So the "Knights of Hyrule" from LttP all but went extinct. Yet there are still a plethora of guards still within Hyrule, and they'd have to be good for something, right? I'm wondering if there's like a pecking order here... or perhaps if they've fleshed out the ranks since the days of yore again and made the castle guard... quite possibly a.k.a. "Hylian Knights" of OoS. Sort of like the People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front.

I could be spouting craziness, but I'm wondering if they're necessarily the same thing.

[LionHarted]

If you want to look at it from a semantics standpoint, they're often referred to as "that group of knights" or "those knights" (or some variation of those) in the game text of ALttP. Any other number of groups of Knights could have surfaced in the interim, or even after. But those wouldn't have been that group of Knights.

[Fyxe]

In Japanese, they are referred to as the 'family of knights'. This implies a very small, select body of loyal knights, rather than a standard section of the army. The term used in the American version of ALttP gave them a title they didn't necessarily need, and whether the term 'family of knights' has even been used again in the Japanese games is hugely questionable.

So there's presumably a difference between normal Hylian knights and THE 'family' of knights of which Link is descended from.

[FDL]

The way I see it, you have to think long and hard about it before you declare something is different than something else that's very similar. I mean, you can't decide that willy-nilly because you could start saying that about anything. Some of these things that are similar actually contradict one another, as well. For instance, OoT resembles the IW but TWW tells us about Knights of Hyrule which exist after OoT.

[Fyxe]

Last I checked, it didn't say that all of the Knights of Hyrule were wiped out completely in the Imprisoning War ANYWAY, but I could be wrong.

[Duke Serkol]

I don't remember if this is in all versions or just the original translation of ALttP (or a later translation) but I remember one of the maidens saying that it ironic how Link who is the last descendant of the knights has the potential to become the hero.

You'll have to dig up a quote to be sure about it though, sorry

[The Missing Link]

I don't remember if this is in all versions or just the original translation of ALttP (or a later translation) but I remember one of the maidens saying that it ironic how Link who is the last descendant of the knights has the potential to become the hero.

You'll have to dig up a quote to be sure about it though, sorry

MAIDEN IN THE VILLAGE OF OUTCASTS
As the wise men sealed the way to the Dark World, the Knights Of Hyrule defended them from the attacks of evil monsters. I heard that the Knights Of Hyrule were nearly wiped out in that battle... You are perhaps the last one to carry on the blood-line of the Knights... It is ironic that the last one in the line has the potential to become the Hero of legend. Surely you can destroy Ganon! [emphasis mine]

That bolded word "perhaps" completely changes the context of the next line.

[Fyxe]

It doesn't really matter either way. Link can have children, can't he?

Basically, I don't think there's anything in the game suggesting that the Knights of Hyrule can't appear in all places in the timeline. And besides that, nothing ever says that there can't be more than one unrelated group called the Knights of Hyrule. We all know by now that the series likes to reuse places, characters and items even if they're not the exact same things.

[Showsni]

Since the hero always comes from the knight's bloodline (according to ALttP), they never are entirely wiped out.

[Kairu Hakubi]

And there were -definitely- knights in OoT, and they had a big part of whatever IW had gone on.. we got to hear about it personally from dying-guy-in-the-alley ;_;

[Fyxe]

Showsni, it was just THAT hero that came from the bloodline, to be fair.

And Kairu, those were guards, not necessarily knights. But the knights almost certainly exist in OoT, probably within Hyrule Castle. The shield that Link uses is a shield used by knights.

Which just emphasises the fact that Link represents the Hylian Knights.

[Showsni]

It seems to be an ongoing prophecy, though.

[Hero of Legend]

That prophesy only aplies when Ganon has the (entire) Triforce. Which is pretty much never.

The other Links are more into that destiny thing. The gods evidently do not need prophesies to send their champions (Link & Zelda + Guest stars, according to TP) to smite some evil butt.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 April 2007 - 05:21 PM.

[garsh]

Where's this interview with Aonuma even at? I've been snooping all over trying to find it, but the only source I can come up with is TSA's site and a link from there back to a Japanese source. At first when I read this thread I took it as fact that Aonuma had once and for all established the timeline split, because I know how you guys are here. But not it looks a lot less definite to me. I'm not willing to accept a fan translation from The Hylia as gospel, despite their good track record.

Also, what impact has Twilight Princess had? I played it and everything, but aside from the Temple of Time stuff, (which I liken to Ocarina of Time, obviously) I don't remember noticing anything at all in the game that led me to think one way or another about where it fit in relation to other games, but I'm sure some of you must have picked things out.

Forgive me for not having the patience to read this whole thread, I've read bits and pieces over the last couple weeks, but today I have other things to do. So if someone already linked to a source for the Aonuma quotes and stuff, then you'll just have to excuse me. Basically, I just want to have some grasp on what the current state of how fans regard the timline.

[The Missing Link]

I'm not willing to accept a fan translation from The Hylia as gospel, despite their good track record.

The word "parareru" (パラレル) is there in black and white, which translates to the word "parallel" (sound it out for yourself, you'll see it) with reference to Wind Waker. We've analysed that sentence ten ways from Sunday, and the only other way something could be "parallel" (as Aonuma-san describes it) is that it's taking place at the same time... which is rather difficult to justify.

Also, what impact has Twilight Princess had? I played it and everything, but aside from the Temple of Time stuff, (which I liken to Ocarina of Time, obviously) I don't remember noticing anything at all in the game that led me to think one way or another about where it fit in relation to other games, but I'm sure some of you must have picked things out.

As far as what Twilight did, most of the grief lies strictly with the ending of the game. Ganondorf appears to have died, but even if you interpret that liberally, he likely wasn't sealed in the Dark World as is required by both Wind Waker and Link to the Past. And we know from what they intended that it is supposed to be an Ocarina of Time sequel, and there are enough references to that game to feed an army.

That's the short and sweet of it.

[LionHarted]

Strictly speaking, Ganondorf was sealed in *a* Dark World before he died in TP.

[Showsni]

That prophesy only aplies when Ganon has the (entire) Triforce. Which is pretty much never.

Yes, but he's always got a chance of getting it, which means that the knight's line must continue so that the Prophecy of the Great Cataclysm can swing into action when needed.

[garsh]

Thanks guys, particularly you, The Missing Link. That was pretty much exactly the kind of quick run down I was looking for.

To be honest, though, I barely even remember what happened at the end. I recall dodging the bull/pig/whatever form, then the tedious horse chase, and then a boring and anti-climactic one-on-one sword fight. Afterward, though, I don't recall anything anything that led me to think of Ganon as being "dead". If this game is supposed to take place prior to Link to the Past, though, I can see the conflict. Personally, I believe Ocarina of Time *is* the Imprisoning War (it baffles me when someone argues against that), and if Ganon isn't left sealed away, then Twilight Princess pretty much steps in and ruins the continuity, unless there really is a split timeline.

[LionHarted]

Unless Twilight Princess really is before The Wind Waker, and Ganon returning from the "depths of the earth" in that game's backstory really meant "from death."
Which you could certainly argue for.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 April 2007 - 12:31 PM.

[The Missing Link]

To be honest, though, I barely even remember what happened at the end. I recall dodging the bull/pig/whatever form, then the tedious horse chase, and then a boring and anti-climactic one-on-one sword fight. Afterward, though, I don't recall anything anything that led me to think of Ganon as being "dead".

That's actually much the problem with this. Link goes all stabby with the Master Sword and nails Ganondorf through the heart... but then nothing. He doesn't fall to the ground. He isn't shown being vaporised. Nothing. All we know is that the Triforce glow disappears and that Zant's neck cracks, causing(?) Ganondorf to gasp again... whatever that means. It's all highly interpretive, and if you wanted Ganondorf to not die, I suppose you could, but I also don't imagine that Link and Zelda would let a living Ganondorf just rot out in the field. He could have disappeared, but once again... the scene is really more artistic than informative.

If this game is supposed to take place prior to Link to the Past, though, I can see the conflict. Personally, I believe Ocarina of Time *is* the Imprisoning War (it baffles me when someone argues against that), and if Ganon isn't left sealed away, then Twilight Princess pretty much steps in and ruins the continuity, unless there really is a split timeline.

Well, the difficulty even with the standard split timeline (WW <-- OoT --> MM --> TP) is that Link to the Past has a difficult time fitting after either game. Ganondorf needs to be sealed in the Dark World for LttP to fly, and if Ganondorf dies in TP (see above) and is sealed in stone in WW... what do you do with LttP? The short answer is that it goes neither place cleanly.

Which means that you have to do one of two things: (1) fanfiction your way around the whole mess, at which point everything is legitimate (as LionHarted alluded to), or (2) create one of these so-called "gaiden timelines" (read: parallel universes) and split the continuity into two separate realms. Neither is pretty; neither is elegant. But that's the problem we're all looking at.