126 replies to this topic

[FDL]

Actually, I think we can look to Kaepora Gaebora to find why everything is okay at the end of MM. Both times we meet Kaepora Gaebora in MM, he mentions that Link may be able to change the "fate" of the land(s). Therefore, I think that every time he got one of the Masks or possibly even did something with the notebook, he righted what went wrong, and changed it's "fate".

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, also, I don't see how he could prevent Ganon from getting the Triforce anyway. The King didn't believe his own daughter, I doubt some kid would sway his decision.

"LOL I HAVE THE TRIFORCE." "Hmm. Even though you have undeniable proof that you were chosen by the Gods, and you were in my Daughter's Dream for half a year, I'm still not gonna listen to a word you have to say."

Not really, the young Link possessing the Triforce of Courage leaves Hyrule for Termina. The Goddess of Time probably protects Link from the various paradoxes that occur and corrects everything good accomplished like in Majora's Mask ending.

Even Goddesses are subject to logic. The Goddess of Geometry can't make a Triangle who's angles don't add up to 180 degrees and the Goddess of Time can't magically solve Paradoxes that should exist.

[Duke Serkol]

"LOL I HAVE THE TRIFORCE." "Hmm. Even though you have undeniable proof that you were chosen by the Gods, and you were in my Daughter's Dream for half a year, I'm still not gonna listen to a word you have to say."

Kings will do that. Especially in fairytales.

Even Goddesses are subject to logic. The Goddess of Geometry can't make a Triangle who's angles don't add up to 180 degrees and the Goddess of Time can't magically solve Paradoxes that should exist.

Isn't the whole point of being a God that you're the one making the rules?

[FDL]

"LOL I HAVE THE TRIFORCE." "Hmm. Even though you have undeniable proof that you were chosen by the Gods, and you were in my Daughter's Dream for half a year, I'm still not gonna listen to a word you have to say."

If he already had the Triforce then why would he need to prevent Ganondorf from getting the Triforce? We are told, plain as day, that Link got the Triforce because Ganon got into the Sacred Realm and tried to take the Triforce. Without a balanced heart, he only got the part he was actually meant to have while two who represented the virtue of the other pieces got those pieces. That's how Link got the Triforce of Courage. He is seen with the Triforce of Courage at the end of OoT.In TP, we're told that he once owned the Triforce of Courage. Therefore, Ganon also had the Triforce of Power at that time. So, he wouldn't ahve to warn the King in the first place. The only way it could work is if Link got the Triforce of Courage and yet Ganondorf somehow did not get his respective piece. Nothing in any game has ever said that a piece of the Triforce can be stolen out of the SR or given to someone without the others following suit, in fact, many things suggest this can't happen. We have seen a Triforce piece left without a master and still stay in Hyrule before, so this isn't any different. There you go, we can say Link warned the King and go against canon or we can say that there were other circumstances that made the child time slightly different. When it all comes down to it, we know Link had the ToC and we know he got it because Ganondorf tried to steal the ToP. Whether this is AT or CT or Single timeline, we know this to be true. So, it really makes no sense having him sent back in time to warn the King when he either A) Did not have the Triforce and thus had no means to prove his credentials, this is also inconstistent with TP and OoT's ending, or B ) He did, but so did Ganon. I sorta rambled there, sorry.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 05 February 2007 - 02:00 PM.

[Mgoblue201]

No, Renado, Ashei, Shad, Auru, Impaz, Gor Liggs, Gor Ebizo, the Zora merchant, and Rutela(debatebly). There may be a couple more but that's all I know of.
Edit: Also, one thing I noticed replaying TWW is that only the people who are really in the know refer to Link as the Hero of Time. Most of them refer to him as the legendary hero, just as they do in TP. I'm not sure if it means anything, but it's something I noticed.

Well I was talking about common, common people. Impaz is a descendant of Impa. Ashei, Shad, and Auru seem to know about the history of Hyrule. The Zoras and Gorons know him from the items he used. It's really impossible to gauge what they know though. It's all a bit of a misnomer anyway. OOT Link isn't the only hero that's done anything special, so refering to a legendary hero is probably just a cool reference to OOT and not meant to be taken too deeply.

None of the people really know about the Hero of Time outside of Outset. In fact, no one knows about the flood either. Basically the only people who do know anything are those in the know. At least Wind Waker mentioned the Hero of Time ten times, ten more times than TP.

[FDL]

Yeah, but all I'm saying is that the only people who know him as the Hero of Time are the real important people. The Outsetians only refer to him as the legendary hero. I agree that the TP references to the hero may not be meant to be taken seriously, but I personally think they are. The way he's included in the cutscene after the Twilightified Faron Woods and made out to be very important is something that makes me feel this way. He's the legendary hero, a title not passed around lightly. Even if the patrons of Telma's Bar know Hylian history, I doubt they'd be offended that Link was wearing the clothes of the hero if he was only a hero amongst the Gorons and Zoras. And they way he is known as the "savior" by Impaz makes me feel that he is very well known for doing something major.

[MikePetersSucks]

Isn't the whole point of being a God that you're the one making the rules?

Yes, but once the rules are set, even the gamemaster has to play the game as designed.

If he already had the Triforce then why would he need to prevent Ganondorf from getting the Triforce? We are told, plain as day, that Link got the Triforce because Ganon got into the Sacred Realm and tried to take the Triforce. Without a balanced heart, he only got the part he was actually meant to have while two who represented the virtue of the other pieces got those pieces. That's how Link got the Triforce of Courage. He is seen with the Triforce of Courage at the end of OoT.In TP, we're told that he once owned the Triforce of Courage. Therefore, Ganon also had the Triforce of Power at that time. So, he wouldn't ahve to warn the King in the first place. The only way it could work is if Link got the Triforce of Courage and yet Ganondorf somehow did not get his respective piece. Nothing in any game has ever said that a piece of the Triforce can be stolen out of the SR or given to someone without the others following suit, in fact, many things suggest this can't happen. We have seen a Triforce piece left without a master and still stay in Hyrule before, so this isn't any different. There you go, we can say Link warned the King and go against canon or we can say that there were other circumstances that made the child time slightly different. When it all comes down to it, we know Link had the ToC and we know he got it because Ganondorf tried to steal the ToP. Whether this is AT or CT or Single timeline, we know this to be true. So, it really makes no sense having him sent back in time to warn the King when he either A) Did not have the Triforce and thus had no means to prove his credentials, this is also inconstistent with TP and OoT's ending, or B ) He did, but so did Ganon. I sorta rambled there, sorry.

I don't know. Frankly, I don't care. My point was that the King would believe him if he had the Triforce. Not WHAT he was being asked to believe. Even if Ganondorf does have the Triforce, he can still warn the royal family that he has it so they can hurry and seal him without the seven year hassle.

[FDL]

No, I agree something changed because of Link's return to his original time, I just don't think he prevented Ganondorf getting the Triforce. For all we know, Nintendo doesn't even have an explanation, just that Link's being there changed events. But I don't think Ganondorf got the Triforce at the Arbiter's Grounds. I think he still got it from the Sacred Realm, and I think that makes Ganon's line to Zant much cooler.

[Evilsbane]

No, I agree something changed because of Link's return to his original time, I just don't think he prevented Ganondorf getting the Triforce. For all we know, Nintendo doesn't even have an explanation, just that Link's being there changed events. But I don't think Ganondorf got the Triforce at the Arbiter's Grounds. I think he still got it from the Sacred Realm, and I think that makes Ganon's line to Zant much cooler.

Nintendo DOES have an explanation of what going back in time did: Eiji Aonouma was actually quite unambiguous on the subject, but many people just don't believe him and say that he's wrong.

[FDL]

What did he say, then? The quote about there being two endings isn't what I'm talking about. We know nothing about the state of events after OoT's ending, especially the child time. We don't know what happened and what didn't, other than the fact that OoT Link was known for something, which is why you and I are arguing at this very moment. Also, we have conflicting stories, with the interviews of the Zelda Box saying that Ganon broke free in TWW because of MM, while most evrything else goes against it.

[Mad Scrub]

In relation to the Hero's Shade and him possibly being the HoT, what if the HoT got lost for a period of time in the Lost Woods at the end of MM? He is a Hylian and when a Hylian gets lost in the Lost Woods they become Stalfos or (depending on their age) a Stalchild. Just a thought.

[FDL]

Yeah, that does work, although admittedly the Shade is somewhat different than a Stalfos. He's more of a ghost who happens to take the form of a rotting corpse, while Stalfos appear to literally be corpses, albeit enchanted ones.

[Fyxe]

Why does everyone call him the 'Hero's Shade'? The official name is Hero's Spirit.

[MK.]

Why does everyone call him the 'Hero's Shade'? The official name is Hero's Spirit.

My Prima Strategy Guide calls him Hero's Shade, so I guess that's where that name came from.

What are we basing his "official" name on, a Nintendo Strategy Guide? The Prima one was too awesome and had gold pages and the Triforce on the cover, I had to get it

I see no evidence he is the deceased Hero of Time or not. In fact, he even refers to the ancient hero in 3rd Person.

He's just an ancient swordsman, or the essense of a swordsman/hero I'd guess. He COULD be tied to the ancient hero, but there's no evidence of it except that he knows awesome ancient swordplay.

Edited by MK., 20 February 2007 - 09:56 PM.

[FDL]

Also that he has the spirit of the wolf and tells us that he chose life as the hero. The fact that he says this could be interpreted as confirmation as he specifically says "the" instead of "a". Whenever a Link is mentioned, he's always called "the" hero, never "a" hero.

[Jumbie]

Has anybody noticed that the points for and against it have been repeated throughout this thread *over and over* by now? Someone might want to make a list of the pros and the cons (are there cons at all?), or else just accept that the Hero's Spirit is meant to be the legendary Hero.

Another thing, what do you think is the reason that nowhere in TP are the words "Hero of Time" mentioned? Because Link never became known as the Hero of Time previous to TP, he was just a child that helped the Gorons and the Zoras and saved the world of Termina. Those three achievements must suffice for him to be remembered in TP as the ancient Hero (while it may be doubted that anybody learned of his Termina adventure). Because if you look, in TP it's with the Gorons and with the Zoras where most references of the Hero are found.

[FDL]

I'm still against that idea, it works well enough, but here are the quotes that make me think something else probably happened(his deeds in the future were remembered, he went on another adventure, TP is actually in the adult time, etc.):

It is said that the hero who long ago saved Hyrule from danger wore these.

This is the description given by the game itself, not one of the characters, so there is probably less bias. It establishes that the hero save Hyrule from danger, and not just the Gorons and the Zoras.

Well, what have we here, hm? That's quite an outfit you have on, old boy.
That timeless design... You're sporting the legendary hero LOOK, aren't you?
Tell me, where did you buy it? Wait... Please don't tell me you made it
YOURSELF?!
Oh, dear, I'd love to wear something like that!

and

...Are you an actor or something?
Dressing like the legendary hero... Wow, gutsy.
If you want to get stared at, why not just join the circus or something?

These establish that he is known amongst the Hylian people as the legendary hero, and not as just the Hero of the Gorons and the Zoras. I mean, there's a good chance that people like Shad would know about a hero who saved the Zoras and Gorons in the past because of his background as a history buff, but he would not be commonly known as the "legendary" hero if that was why they knew of him. Both TWW and ALttP only refer to a "legendary" hero as one who has actually saved Hyrule/the world. This, as well as other connotations sprung from that word, is another things that makes me feel this way. Combine this with the fact that he had the Triforce of Courage, and he sounds quite a bit like the Hero of Time, in my opinion.

Then there is this, in the similar vein of the last two:

The howls of the beasts... They've faded into silence...
Wait, are you...
The savior! It's you, the savior!
Please, please forgive me...for not opening up the door.

By someone not involved with the Gorons and the Zoras(atleast in OoT), the hero is referred to as "The savior" and she says this excitedly. This is another thing that seems to be against the idea that the "many tales" that Renado mentions merely refer to his actions in child OoT. While he did many great things, in child OoT no one aside from the Zoras and the Gorons appear to view him with any reverence. In fact, many people ignore him.

And, for the hell of it, these two quotes, one of which sorta goes against the theory that the Hero's Bow is merely a reference to MM, as well as quote from the Hero's Spirit which debatebly alludes to the various evils throughout Hyrule(perhaps even Ganondorf) being involved with the previous hero, though this is a tenuous connection, really. Still, the first quote is at least interesting:

The Hero's weapon you claimed...
That weapon is said to have defeated the most powerful evils this world has
ever known.

and this:

You must persist on the lonely path of the sword to obtain true courage and
earn the strength to conquer the great evils of this world!

Well, there's some quotes. Have fun with them.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 20 February 2007 - 11:32 PM.

[Fyxe]

My Prima Strategy Guide calls him Hero's Shade, so I guess that's where that name came from.

What are we basing his "official" name on, a Nintendo Strategy Guide? The Prima one was too awesome and had gold pages and the Triforce on the cover, I had to get it

The Prima guide does appear to have many official names, but when the Nintendo guide *does* name things, we should assume their names to be more canon. Most of the time the names are identical to the ones given in the Prima guide, but they specifically refer to the Stalfos guy as the 'Hero's Spirit'.

MK., you have the Prima guide? Do you mind if I bug you at some point for some names that I'm not certain on?

Also, guys, on the subject of the 'legendary hero' business... Do not forget the opening to Majora's Mask. I shall note what it says in the manual here...

In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from that land that made him a legend...

Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...

Personally, I find this quote a direct contradiction to the 'traditional' view of the split timeline. It does allow for a split timeline, or a single timeline, but not the standard split timeline where Ganon is sealed while fighting the Knights of Hyrule.

But basically, it *requires* Link to be the one to save Hyrule from Ganondorf/Ganon. Whether this actually occurs *after* the events of Majora's Mask and the manual is just speaking in an omnipotent sense (leading to a single timeline) or Link somehow saved Hyrule from Ganondorf due to being sent back in time (thereby creating a gaiden timeline), we don't know for sure.

But basically, whatever ending to OoT that Twilight Princess follows (and TWW, for that matter), Link in Majora's Mask is, in legend, the boy who saved Hyrule.

Edited by Fyxe, 21 February 2007 - 09:39 AM.

[FDL]

Yeah, I have used that to argue that point as well. That quote goes against the idea that Link was sent to a time prior to when he first met Zelda. Whether Hyrule's people somehow knew what happened in the future, he defeated Ganon before MM, or after MM, there is little chance that he went back in time and lived out a boring, simple life.

[Crazy Penguin]

Another thing, what do you think is the reason that nowhere in TP are the words "Hero of Time" mentioned?

Probably the same reason that the word "Triforce" is never used.

[FDL]

That has been my assumption as well. Others think it's a sign that TP isn't a sequel to OoT, or that it's proof that Link returned to a time before he evn met Zelda, but I disagree. In a game where they never refer to the Triforce by name, even in the legend told to us by Lanayru, it's no stretch to believe that they wouldn't mention the hero by his title either.

[Hero of Legend]

That quote goes against the idea that Link was sent to a time prior to when he first met Zelda.

It does? Why? Not that I think he was sent back before that, but still.

Anyway, another thing that might give some clarity about just how much OoT Link told Zelda about his adventure in the future (and thereby made the MM legend possible) is the fact that TP Zelda knows the Master Sword lies in the Temple of Time, but in OoT, nobody appears to be aware of that fact (probably because the Door of Time has never been opened since the Temple was erected). This means someone must have told OoT Zelda about it, and that someone could have been none other than Link himself.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 February 2007 - 05:30 PM.

[FDL]

That actually works quite well. I have an outlandish, fanficcy "theory" that the Skull Kid in the Sacred Grove could be the same one who Link made friends with, doing him a favor for MM. He doesn't have Tatl or Tael, but he does like hide and seek as well as Saria's Song.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and I say it goes against the idea because we are told that he was made a legend, something which TP appears to enforce, and if the events of OoT were changed to such a degree it's possible that he wouldn't have really done much. Plus, I don't like the idea of Link living out some peaceful life with no one knowing him, nothing in OoT, MM, or TP seems to agree with that.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 21 February 2007 - 07:56 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

That actually works quite well. I have an outlandish, fanficcy "theory" that the Skull Kid in the Sacred Grove could be the same one who Link made friends with, doing him a favor for MM. He doesn't have Tatl or Tael, but he does like hide and seek as well as Saria's Song.

Kinda irrelevant, but okay.

Oh, yeah, and I say it goes against the idea because we are told that he was made a legend, something which TP appears to enforce, and if the events of OoT were changed to such a degree it's possible that he wouldn't have really done much.

He told Zelda about adult Hyrule, and then she told the rest of Hyrule. (Non-existant) 'problem' solved.

Plus, I don't like the idea of Link living out some peaceful life with no one knowing him, nothing in OoT, MM, or TP seems to agree with that.

Why are you making a problem out of this? We KNOW the people knew of him because MM (and TP) says so. We KNOW he had more adventures, because we see it in MM. Why not just go with what the game says?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 February 2007 - 08:33 PM.

[FDL]

Kinda irrelevant, but okay.

Irrelevant how? It's just a theory about the ToT, similar to your theory that Link was the reason why Zelda knew of the MS's location in TP. It's really no big deal.

He told Zelda about adult Hyrule, and then she told the rest of Hyrule. (Non-existant) 'problem' solved.

Just because you don't consider it a problem doesn't mean others don't. It's not non-existant as many people argue that this is how it happened, though I disagree.

Why are you making a problem out of this? We KNOW the people knew of him because MM (and TP) says so. We KNOW he had more adventures, because we see it in MM. Why not just go with what the game says

Again, I'm not the one making a problem out of it. Some people disagree with that MM quote I guess, because I have heard people say exactly what I said I disagree with.

[Hero of Legend]

Irrelevant how? It's just a theory about the ToT, similar to your theory that Link was the reason why Zelda knew of the MS's location in TP. It's really no big deal.

It has little to do with what we discussed – that’s what I meant.

Just because you don't consider it a problem doesn't mean others don't. It's not non-existant as many people argue that this is how it happened, though I disagree.

Then those people are idiots who ignore canon facts. Nothing more to it. Nobody on this forum does that kind of crap anyway, so there is no point in you making an issue out of it here.

Again, I'm not the one making a problem out of it. Some people disagree with that MM quote I guess, because I have heard people say exactly what I said I disagree with.

Again, you can't really disagree with an in-game fact and retain any sort of decent credibility. And what was it you said that other said which made them disagree with you, again?

[FDL]

It has little to do with what we discussed – that’s what I meant.

Fine, but I was just sharing it.

Then those people are idiots who ignore canon facts. Nothing more to it. Nobody on this forum does that kind of crap anyway, so there is no point in you making an issue out of it here.

I have seen people on this forum who say exactly that they believe Link went back to a time before he met Zelda, and now you're just arguing for the sake of it. We already have one quote-battle going, we don't need another.

Again, you can't really disagree with an in-game fact and retain any sort of decent credibility. And what was it you said that other said which made them disagree with you, again?

What they said was that Link was probably sent back before he met Zelda and then warned the King of Hyrule, thwarting Ganondorf. I disagree with this, as many things stated in OoT don't agree with that idea.

[Hero of Legend]

I have seen people on this forum who say exactly that they believe Link went back to a time before he met Zelda, and now you're just arguing for the sake of it. We already have one quote-battle going, we don't need another.

What? What does it matter what time Link was sent back to? It is still a fact that he embarks on that personal journey. Those things are totally unrelated.

What they said was that Link was probably sent back before he met Zelda and then warned the King of Hyrule, thwarting Ganondorf. I disagree with this, as many things stated in OoT don't agree with that idea.

For the record, I say Link was sent back to after he pulled the MS, warned the King, and then events turned out differently leading up to TP. What I don't get is how this has anything to do with the fact that MM happened.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 February 2007 - 04:21 PM.

[FDL]

What? What does it matter what time Link was sent back to? It is still a fact that he embarks on that personal journey. Those things are totally unrelated.

No, it has nothing to do with his personal journey, it has to do with the fact that he is said to have been made a legend, and the fact that nothing says he was forgotten, while there are things appear to disagree with the idea of his not being known as a hero. The personal journey itself has aboslutely nothing to do with it.

For the record, I say Link was sent back to after he pulled the MS, warned the King, and then events turned out differently leading up to TP. What I don't get is how this has anything to do with the fact that MM happened.

Warned the King of what, though? The people I'm talking about say he warned the King about Ganondorf being evil and wanting the Triforce, which is something I don't think happened because if Link had the ToC in OoT's ending as is shown in the game, Ganondorf also would have had his piece of the Triforce. I'm not unopposed to his changing of the future, just opposed to the idea that he prevented Ganondorf from getting the Triforce, something which no game seems to support.

[Hero of Legend]

No, it has nothing to do with his personal journey, it has to do with the fact that he is said to have been made a legend, and the fact that nothing says he was forgotten, while there are things appear to disagree with the idea of his not being known as a hero. The personal journey itself has aboslutely nothing to do with it.

Come again? If I understand you correctly, you are saying there are things that would somehow contradict what we learn in MM's intro? Like what? Not OoT itself, as both the adult and child ending has people that are aware of Link deeds and are sure to spread that knowledge (Zelda in particular). Not MM, which tells us that Link was remembered as a legend. Certinaly not TWW, where some people still think he will return and save the world from evil. And not TP, where he is remembered as the legendary hero. So, again, I kinda fail to see the problem.

Warned the King of what, though?

Well, actually not the King, since he'd be dead by that time (I assume Ganondorf killed him in his first 'attack' on Hyrule Castle). And what Link warned the Hylians about would be nothing other than Ganondorf’s impeding conquest of Hyrule, which would start as soon as he returned from the Sacred Realm. Once Ganondorf returns, events play out as said in TP, with him rallying the Gerudo in a war against the Hylians, ending with his eventual defeat and banishment.