126 replies to this topic

[Evilsbane]

The Hero of Men predates TMC which, presumably, predates OoT and therefore the Hero of Time. So there's more than one 'Hero' to which they can be referring. Though it's probably the HoT.

Edited by Evilsbane, 02 February 2007 - 03:10 PM.

[FDL]

But the Hero of Men didn't wear a hat and he didn't have the ToC as far as we know. TMC Link did have a hat but no ToC either.

[Fyxe]

Why does everyone think TMC predates OoT? Did I miss a memo somewhere? Is it because the 'Hero of Men' (is that an official title anyway?) doesn't wear a hat? Is that IT?

[FDL]

Yeah, I think it's because it's supposedly "the story of why Link wears a hat", which isn't really true, seeing as how OoT link wore his clothes because it was Kokiri garb.

[Fyxe]

I don't understand. Is it ever stated that no heroes before the Link in TMC ever wore a hat like that? Is it ever stated that all heroes after TMC will then always wear that hat?

On a side note, the Hero's Spirit in TP wears an odd helmet with a cross shape on it. On a side note to the side note, I believe this is a homage to Link's famous cross shields in the NES games, therefore it suits the Spirit's 'ancient' garb.

Even though the NES games usually are last in most timelines, but that's beside the point of a homage.

[FDL]

It's never stated in-game, but I think Aonuma said something to that effect in an interview, which is ludicrous IMO.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 02 February 2007 - 07:08 PM.

[Crazy Penguin]

I don't understand. Is it ever stated that no heroes before the Link in TMC ever wore a hat like that? Is it ever stated that all heroes after TMC will then always wear that hat?

The implication is there, but there's also the implication that the entire hero's outfit is derived from Kokiri clothes in Ocarina of Time. It's another one of those odd little quirks in the series that doesn't quite seem to add up at first glance. Seeing as Ocarina of Time plays a much more significant role in Zelda lore (arguably THE most significant), and that it explains the origin of the whole outfit, rather than just the hat, I'd lean towards giving it precedence.

So all in all, no, there is no significant evidence of The Minish Cap taking place chronologically before Ocarina of Time.

[FDL]

Yeah, true. I don't even think that every Link wore clothes based on the previous Link. Sometimes, I think it was just coincidence, except for in the case of TMC, TP, and TWW.

[spunky-monkey]

Why does everyone think TMC predates OoT? Did I miss a memo somewhere? Is it because the 'Hero of Men' (is that an official title anyway?) doesn't wear a hat? Is that IT?

1. In the prologue monsters from somewhere else invaded Hyrule.
2. There are no monsters in Hyrule until Vaati sets them free.
3. Minish are responsible technology/magic and for all the items every Link finds lying around under rocks/grass.
4. As mentioned above TMC is set in Hyrule (with a Lon Lon Ranch) but the storyline isn't about Ganondorf or the Triforce.
5. Hero of Men revealed as the first Hero.
6. The creation of the Four Sword and the origin of Vaati.
7. Elzo gives Link a cap at the end which becomes the traditional garment for every Hero after.

Hope I haven't overlooked anything...

[Crazy Penguin]

1. In the prologue monsters from somewhere else invaded Hyrule.

Somewhere else? Must have missed that part. Where was it mentioned?

2. There are no monsters in Hyrule until Vaati sets them free.

Ahh, but do not forget that there were monsters before the "hero of men" story and that at the end of The Minish Cap we see Princess Zelda rid the land of monsters once again.

3. Minish are responsible technology/magic and for all the items every Link finds lying around under rocks/grass.

The Minish Cap also leads us to believe that the Minish have been around in Hyrule for a loooooooooong time, so this isn't of much significance.

4. As mentioned above TMC is set in Hyrule (with a Lon Lon Ranch) but the storyline isn't about Ganondorf or the Triforce.

I can't see any significance here either.

5. Hero of Men revealed as the first Hero.

Nitpick - that's "hero of men", no special capitalisation. Where was he revealed to be the first hero?

6. The creation of the Four Sword and the origin of Vaati.

All this really tells us is that TMC takes place before FS, FSA and ALttP (taking Palace of the Four Sword into consideration).



Personally I'm more interested in TMC's references to the Oracle games, particualrly Nayru and Din's figurine profiles and the book in the library. Anyone spotted any others?

[FDL]

What book? I remember Din and Nayru's descriptions, but I don't remember anything else like that.

[Raien]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but...

The wolf spirit says that he "accepted life as the hero" after Link learned the final hidden skill. I'll find the direct quote as soon as I can but, this IMO proves that he is the Hero of Legend.

[FDL]

Yeah, the fact that he says "the" hero instead of "a" hero and the hero of TP's backstory(who I believe is the HoT) is almost exclusively referred to as "the" hero makes me think this as well.

[Fyxe]

His final lines were the revelation that he is indeed the spirit of the hero that everyone else mentions in TP, who is likely the hero from OoT, but not necessarily. Although his name, the Hero's Spirit, is a bit of a givaway too.

Edited by Fyxe, 03 February 2007 - 05:02 PM.

[FDL]

So who do you think the ancient hero is if not OoT Link? Maybe the Link of the next game? Because I doubt it's any current Link aside from the one of OoT.

[Fyxe]

Well, considering various events *must* have occured between OoT and TP (significantly, Ganon's escape from the Sacred Realm/Dark World), then it's perfectly possible that there was another hero inbetween each game.

[Mgoblue201]

"Although I accepted life as the hero, I could not convey the lessons of that life to those who came after. At last, I have eased my regrets."

Obviously we know that there's more than one hero, but the game constantly refers to the legendary hero, which is OOT Link. I think we can all assume that's true. I mean there's overwhelming evidence that TP is basically "a love letter to OOT". I think with all of the other stuff, the wolf form, the name, all of that, it's a probability that he's a former Link. I don't know about getting lost in the woods though. That seems a bit of a stretch.

As for TMC, the hat might not be a huge fact alone, but isn't it a good probability that the creators put that in the game to hint at a placement at the beginning of the series? What else would they have meant? Plus, if Aonuma truly believes that Four Swords is "the oldest tale", and if TMC predates that, then it's first according to Aonuma.

Edited by Mgoblue201, 03 February 2007 - 05:20 PM.

[Fyxe]

I DID say it was probably OoT Link, but nothing is proved. It might not be.

And, um, the hat doesn't mean anything on it's own. How is it a hint? I never even paid any attention to it until people started going on about it. It's a hat. Big deal. o.o How does Link wearing a hat in TMC somehow force all later Links to also wear that hat?

[FDL]

So, Mgoblue201, what's your idea of how Link is still considered a legendary hero and a savior despite the fact that you're a split-timeliner? I've got my own ideas as to how that might have happened if there is indeed a spit timeline and I've heard other people's ideas, but I'm not sure I've heard yours.

[Mgoblue201]

The hero of men in the backstory did not have a hat. Link in TMC does not have a hat until Ezlo appears. They then go out of their way to point out how nice Link looks in his new hat. Again, if we put all proof in its place then that alone does not mean much. It's the fact that there seems to be clear creator intention to explain the hat legend. No, it obviously does not mean much for the rest of the series. Link didn't get his hat in OOT because some other hero wore it. It's just a cute little nod. And combined with Aonuma's words, I think it's a strong possibility that TMC was meant to go first.

I've explained the legendary hero bit before. He still saved half of Hyrule, for example every other race besides the Hylians, if you factor out the adult events. He also saved Termina, if those events could potentially reach Hyrule. And he did all of that by the time he was ten or twelve. It would be an obvious assumption that he did much, much more than that unless he just never returned to Hyrule. But I'd say the fact that the legendary hero wasn't known for defeating Ganon is far better proof that he did other things apart from that.

[Fyxe]

It's just a cute little nod.

That's the point though. That's all it is.

And combined with Aonuma's words, I think it's a strong possibility that TMC was meant to go first.

Aonuma said FSA was the first adventure in the series, which clearly makes no sense.

[Crazy Penguin]

What book? I remember Din and Nayru's descriptions, but I don't remember anything else like that.

The part where you have to shrink in the library, one of the books is called "Fushigi no Kinomi". In Japan Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons were called "Fushigi no Kinomi - Jikuu no shou" and "Fushigi no Kinomi - Daichi no shou". It doesn't necessarily have any significance beyond that of an easter egg, but it's there none the less.

[FDL]

I've explained the legendary hero bit before. He still saved half of Hyrule, for example every other race besides the Hylians, if you factor out the adult events. He also saved Termina, if those events could potentially reach Hyrule. And he did all of that by the time he was ten or twelve. It would be an obvious assumption that he did much, much more than that unless he just never returned to Hyrule. But I'd say the fact that the legendary hero wasn't known for defeating Ganon is far better proof that he did other things apart from that.

Oh yeah, I remember that. So, I'm assuming you don't think he was sent back to before he met Zelda then? Because then he wouldn't even have done that other stuff. However, if he isn't known for defeating Ganon, he must be known for some major thing. Many Hylians know of him, and seem to revere him as more than just some guy who saved the Gorons and the Zoras. Plus, we have the description of the Hero's Clothes which I believe is something like "It is said that the hero who long ago saved Hyrule from danger wore these." So, if it is indeed in the child timeline and he didn't stop Ganon then I think there is one main thing that makes him so revered by the more human reidents of Hyrule(Hyians, Sheikah). As much as I hate endless sequels involving the same character, I wouldn't mind seeing OoT Link return for one more big adventure. Really, he's the only Link with any chance of Nintendo being able to use a third time, anyway. In fact, many casual gamers who aren't big into the timeline used to believe that the Oracle Link was the same one, I believe.

Edit: Oh yeah, thanks for the info, CP.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 03 February 2007 - 09:49 PM.

[Mgoblue201]

The fact that it's a cute nod means everything. It means it's evidence. We cannot simply discount it. If Nintendo meant it to explain the hat legend, then that shows creator intention to put it first. And FSA doesn't make sense anywhere. Well his exact words were "Four Swords is what we're thinking as the oldest tale", and then he said FSA was a sequel to that, but the context dealt with chronology, so the inference is that FSA is a sequel to Four Swords in both chronology and spirit. But Vaati's quest for the entire Light Force thing just seems to smack of a pre OOT placement. The fact that the game says the Light Force "will echoe through the ages" also seems to be that they're setting up the future legend. It's just small things like that. I haven't played FSA so I can't speak to that, but I think the beginning is the most likely place for a TMC placement.

I actually don't have a firm belief on when Link went back in time. I'd like to think that it was after saving the Zoras but before Ganon invaded the castle. That would seem to be the optimum time for my belief system. But just for dramatic purposes it would be cool to think that it was their "first" meeting. Some people believe that Link actually warned the king, although I do not. That would automatically make him a hero I suppose. But I like to think that Link had no part in that. I'd simply like to think that he corrected his mistake and did not open the Door of Time, letting things play out. Thus men of greater stature were able to subdue Ganon and bring him to justice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Renado the only common person that tells you of the legendary hero? It seems like it's mostly the light spirits espousing his deeds. Of course Renado tells you that the hero's deeds are told quite a bit, but it seems to me that most Hylians don't even care.

[FDL]

No, Renado, Ashei, Shad, Auru, Impaz, Gor Liggs, Gor Ebizo, the Zora merchant, and Rutela(debatebly). There may be a couple more but that's all I know of.


Edit: Also, one thing I noticed replaying TWW is that only the people who are really in the know refer to Link as the Hero of Time. Most of them refer to him as the legendary hero, just as they do in TP. I'm not sure if it means anything, but it's something I noticed.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 04 February 2007 - 09:09 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Assume Link came back to before he first met Zelda... don't you think that being Link he'd help out the starving Gorons and the eaten Ruto? (Wait, are those problems... complementary? I mean just give Ruto to the Gorons for eating et voila, problems solved )

[FDL]

No, I think if he warned the King as people who theorize that he went back to before he Zelda met and the King actually believed him, changing events, the King would've helped the Gorons and Zoras. That's why it doesn't work, IMO. Plus, the fact that he's known among all in Hyrule as the "Savior"and the "legendary hero" makes me think he did something major rather than only being known as the hero of the Gorons and Zoras.

[MikePetersSucks]

Going back to any time before the time he drew the Master Sword doesn't work because it means there'd be two Links running around, when Link only time travels through spirit.

[FDL]

Well, also, I don't see how he could prevent Ganon from getting the Triforce anyway. The King didn't believe his own daughter, I doubt some kid would sway his decision.

[spunky-monkey]

Going back to any time before the time he drew the Master Sword doesn't work because it means there'd be two Links running around, when Link only time travels through spirit.

Not really, the young Link possessing the Triforce of Courage leaves Hyrule for Termina. The Goddess of Time probably protects Link from the various paradoxes that occur and corrects everything good accomplished like in Majora's Mask ending.