126 replies to this topic

[Khallos]

Hmmm, well looking at this thread it does seem to be taken a bit too seriously, but then again I don't exactly check out Zelda Storyline very often, only when a new game comes out, so like I know.

But, after meeting him for the penultimate time yesterday, I did notice a certain problem with this Knight thing. Simply put, he's huge. I'm going to say Link is pretty tall, but we have no way of comparing that; none the less, this Knight guy is big. Link barely comes up to his nipples. So unless Everyone has shrunk since Ocarina of Time, it does seem unlikely for a corpse to get bigger. Personally, I just think he's a knight blessed/cursed to teach Link ancient combat techniques.

However until I get rock hard evidence (preferably from Nintendo itself) I'm not going to discount the fact, that he could be the Hero of Time, as after all he does have several similarities with him.

[Hero of Winds]

It's just some knight. There are plenty of guys in that bloodline between OoT Link and TP Link, and if they'd meant for the ghost to be the Hero of Time, they'd have him look the part. It's not like they were shy with the fan service in this game or anything.

Since when are knights considered heroes? He doesn't even look like a knight! He looks more like a Stalfos or Darknut.

This is the same argument as to whether or not OoT is the Imprisoning War. This is the same argument as to whether or not the Legend of the Fairy is a reference to Tingle's role in MM. It seems like anytime Nintendo tries to establish a little continuity between games, you guys freak out over it and pass of it as irrelevant.

[Vertiboy]

Well, since this figure can turn into a golden wolf, I would think that he could turn into a 6 foot + Knight of Hyrule. Hey, that's just me, though.

Edited by Vertiboy, 31 December 2006 - 08:29 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

He was a hero long ago but nothing else is mentioned. Seriously, if Nintendo wanted him to be the Hero of Time they would have modelled him to look the same by giving the character a green tunic.

I dunno but that guy looks like a gladiator, not a knight. Apart from them both being able to turn into wolves there's not much to relate them together. Why there's a wolf spirit anyway? It feels like Nintendo have a lot to expand upon here...

Edited by Ricky, 30 December 2006 - 08:16 PM.

[Hero of Winds]

He was a hero long ago but nothing else is mentioned. Seriously, if Nintendo wanted him to be the Hero of Time they would have modelled him to look the same by giving the character a green tunic.

Except that same green tunic is being worn by TP Link.

For what it's worth, the Hero's Spirit has green (leaves/vines/something) all over his armor.

[Tri-Enforcer]

It seems like a ghost can take any image it wants in the Zelda series. The King of Red Lions in TWW, appeared not only as freakin' boat, but he also had the image of a living person. Also, the ghost of the sages Fado and Laruto in TWW, didn't have the ghostly image of their decomposed bodies, but rather of their living bodies. So it's not impossible for the ghost of the Hero of Time to appear in a green tunic as opposed to a rotting corpse in armor. Plus why would the ghost of the Hero of Time want to appear as a rotting corpse?

[spunky-monkey]

Except that same green tunic is being worn by TP Link.

As Tri-Enforcer said, a ghost in Zelda can take on any form it wants, or has to. Since gladiator doesn't look anything like HoT then we figure he must somehow be related to this Link instead, or both of them merely have this 'Hero's spirit' (wolf) which quite possibly is the actual incarnation of the Hero of Time.

Besides I don't think Nintendo want to write off the Hero as being 'dead' just yet as it can open up new post-MM installments in the Zelda series.

[Kish]

This is the same argument as to whether or not OoT is the Imprisoning War. This is the same argument as to whether or not the Legend of the Fairy is a reference to Tingle's role in MM. It seems like anytime Nintendo tries to establish a little continuity between games, you guys freak out over it and pass of it as irrelevant.

I'm actually all for those connections. But this one isn't nearly as convincing.

[Hero of Legend]

So it's not impossible for the ghost of the Hero of Time to appear in a green tunic as opposed to a rotting corpse in armor.

It is very impossible, as the game makes it very clear that there is only one hero's tunic, and it has already been passed on to Link from the Hero's Spirit. Thus he cannot wear it.

Plus why would the ghost of the Hero of Time want to appear as a rotting corpse?

Because Nintendo thought it was a cool design. Seriously, that's like arguing about Ganon's (not Ganondorf's) appearance being different from in OoT or something.

Anyway, you guys want proof? Fine, I'll give you proof.

O brave youth... In the land covered in twilight, where people roam as spirits, you were transformed into a blue-eyed beast...

That was a sign... It was a sign that the powers of the chosen one rest within you...and that they are awakening.

Look at your awakened form...

*Shows Link in his traditional green clothes*

The green tunic that is your garb once belonged to the ancient hero chosen by the gods...

His power is yours. His is the true power that slept within you.

Your name is Link.

You are the hero chosen by the gods.

So, Link is the chosen hero of the gods, as was his predecessor. It is through his power (which we know consists of two things - the ToC and the spirit of the beast) that he turned into a wolf when he entered the Twilight Realm. He also wore the green tunic of Link while he was alive.

Now...

A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has courage.

You may be destined to become the hero of legend...but your current power would disgrace the proud green of the hero’s tunic you wear.

You must use your courage to seek power...and find it you must. Only then will you become the hero for whom this world despairs.

If you do find true courage, and you wish to save Hyrule from horrors it now faces...

Then you will be worthy to receive the secrets I hold!

*Learn the ending blow*

Hmm. That was a pinpoint strike. Never overlook your opportunity to finish with *A-Button*!

The first hidden skill, the ending blow, has been passed on!

There are still six hidden skills for you to learn.

Those are only for the one who carries the blood of the hero...the one whose spirit is that of the sublime beast.

Grow powerful. Test your courage. And when you find that you need another skill to overcome the threats that face you...

Search for the statues that howl with the sound of the wind. Seek the sound that calls for the spirit of the beast to awaken me again.

A sword wields no strengths unless the hand that holds it has courage. Remember those words...

Farewell!

Firstly, we learn that the Hero's Spirit is well aware of exactly what the hero's tunic is. It is implied that he last wore it, because he says only he knows how to make Link worthy of it. We then learn that the power of the ancient Hero, which Faron said resides inside Link, can only be awakened by having the Hero's Spirit "pass it on" to Link, and only then can Link become the true hero. As if that wasn't enough, the Hero’s Spirit then says these skills can only be learned by those carrying the blood of the hero, and that they both posses the spirit of the "sublime beast" which is in fact the power Link inherited from the ancient hero. Not to mention, latter on the Hero's Spirits says he once was the hero, and that Link, his heir, now has become that chosen hero through his guidance. Thus we know, if Link is the hero chosen by the gods, then so was the Hero's Spirit.

In short, he was Link. He was the Hero of Time. This is a fact - unless of course, you want to make up some other hero that existed between OoT and TP just for the sake of it without any evidence from the game/creators whatsoever.

Besides I don't think Nintendo want to write off the Hero as being 'dead' just yet as it can open up new post-MM installments in the Zelda series.

Actually, they all say they want to move on, so I'm not at all surprised they killed off the Hero of Time.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 December 2006 - 09:36 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

What's dumb is seeing how blatant both the creators and the game itself establish connections to OoT, and then when someone comes along and calls himself a hero, passing off said person as just some random hero/knight.

He LOOKS like a random hero/knight.

Wtf is that supposed to be? Is that a part of your argument, or were you just unable to say anything remotely intelligent?

You don't have to be an asshole. Debate maturely or don't debate at all. You said that since Link is wearing the Hero's Clothing, then that means the Ghost can't wear it.

Um...Ghost clothes are usually made of ghostly material. As in it doesn't physically exist. Ghosts almost always wear whatever they died in or some such. I don't think Link of OOT would ever wear that kind of armor. Frankly, I would think his ghost would wear a Tunic.

(Btw, had OoT Link entered the Twilight Realm, he would've transformed into a wolf as well. That transformation occurs because of the Triforce of Courage.)

The Transformation occurs because of the Triforce of Courage, yes, but it's perfectly possible that the Triforce is turning Link into a form that reflects his heart. Otherwise a wolf is obscenely random.

And then he returned at the end. Lolz.

Prove it. Lolz.

There is? Cuz I sure haven't seen any.

Just because we haven't seen any doesn't mean they don't exist.

Oh, and Tusl is left handed, by the way.

Since when are knights considered heroes?

Since LTTP. Lol.

He doesn't even look like a knight! He looks more like a Stalfos or Darknut.

Yea, which are knight-based monsters. Lol.

Except that same green tunic is being worn by TP Link.

So what? He's a GHOST! If he can materialize armor out of nowhere to wear in his human corpse form, he can materialize a tunic just as easily.

For what it's worth, the Hero's Spirit has green (leaves/vines/something) all over his armor.

That's nothing. That's an artistic allusion used in the East all the time to represent ghosts, just like white sheets in the west.

This is the same argument as to whether or not OoT is the Imprisoning War. This is the same argument as to whether or not the Legend of the Fairy is a reference to Tingle's role in MM. It seems like anytime Nintendo tries to establish a little continuity between games, you guys freak out over it and pass of it as irrelevant.

I'm actually all for those connections. But this one isn't nearly as convincing.

Ditto.

It is very impossible, as the game makes it very clear that there is only one hero's tunic, and it has already been passed on to Link from the Hero's Spirit. Thus he cannot wear it.

It doesn't have to be the actual tunic. It just has to look the part. And again, Ghosts wear ghost clothing ANYway, so it doesn't f*cking matter if TP Link is wearing it. Seriously, if that's the best arguement you guys have, then it's really weak.

[Hero of Legend]

Just because we haven't seen any doesn't mean they don't exist.

So that gives us the right to make them up?

Oh, and Tusl is left handed, by the way.

Rusl is right handed. You sorta have to reverse it when playing the Wii version.

It doesn't have to be the actual tunic. It just has to look the part. And again, Ghosts wear ghost clothing ANYway, so it doesn't f*cking matter if TP Link is wearing it.

But that would go against the entire point of Link having the hero's tunic in the first place, with the whole "passing on the torch" dealie. He is not the hero anymore, you know.

Seriously, if that's the best arguement you guys have, then it's really weak.

Huh? That's not an argument at all. You are the one not accepting the explanation given in the game. And you ignored my entire post.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 December 2006 - 05:03 PM.

[D~N]

So what? He's a GHOST! If he can materialize armor out of nowhere to wear in his human corpse form, he can materialize a tunic just as easily.

Youe guys keep calling him a ghost, but he's not. He's a physical being. Link's sword 'clangs' against this guys'. You physically stab him in training. Thus, he's a rotting corpse of some kind, and not a ghost, unless I can be proven wrong.

btw, what's so bad about him being the HoT? I mean, if he looks like him, and acts like him, and talks of bloodline and all that, can't we just say he is? It shouldn't affect any timeline really....It's in the eye's of the beholder, I suppose...

[Hero of Winds]

He LOOKS like a random hero/knight.

Have you seen the Knights? Hero's Spirit =/= a Hylian knight.

You don't have to be an asshole. Debate maturely or don't debate at all.

Hypocrite much?

Prove it. Lolz.

Why don't you beat the game? Lolz.

Just because we haven't seen any doesn't mean they don't exist.

That's a pretty dumb point. The Zelda series has specifically shown no other left-handed swordsmen besides the various Links (who have all been heroes). Additionally, the only people to become heroes have been Links. Transitive property says that the Hero's Spirit is a Link (and since the Hero of Time was the only hero prior to TP, this would mean that the Hero's Spirit is the Hero of Time), but I won't bore you with the math.

Since LTTP. Lol.

Knights are knights, not heroes. Otherwise, any one of them could've pulled out the Master Sword as opposed to getting slaughtered.

Yea, which are knight-based monsters. Lol.

I must've missed the memo that Darknuts are considered "Knights of Hyrule."

So what? He's a GHOST! If he can materialize armor out of nowhere to wear in his human corpse form, he can materialize a tunic just as easily.

If that's the case why doesn't he just materialize some flesh? And a right eye?

That's nothing. That's an artistic allusion used in the East all the time to represent ghosts, just like white sheets in the west.

Do you have any proof to these "That's how the Japanese percieve ghosts and wolves" claims?

Seriously, if that's the best arguement you guys have, then it's really weak.

And your argument is that he's some other hero? Newsflash: prior to TP, there is only one hero who saves Hyrule. I'll give you three guesses as to who that is.

[MikePetersSucks]

Rusl is right handed. You sorta have to reverse it when playing the Wii version.

The fact that he could've been left handed in atleast one of the versions should be enough. Besides, it's unreasonable to think that Link is the one and only swordsman in all of the universe whose left handed.

But that would go against the entire point of Link having the hero's tunic in the first place, with the whole "passing on the torch" dealie. He is not the hero anymore, you know.

Then why's he called the Hero's Spirit?

Youe guys keep calling him a ghost, but he's not. He's a physical being. Link's sword 'clangs' against this guys'. You physically stab him in training. Thus, he's a rotting corpse of some kind, and not a ghost, unless I can be proven wrong.

Ghosts can interact physically. IE Poltergeists. Besides, he's called the Hero's Spirit. There's also the possibility that all the training the Spirit gives Link is in his mind or something.

Have you seen the Knights? Hero's Spirit =/= a Hylian knight.

LOLZ FSA, LTTP, OOX.

Hypocrite much?

I might not be the nicest debator, but I never claim a person has no intelligence. "you just unable to say anything remotely intelligent?"

Why don't you beat the game? Lolz.

I did. I see Link in a forest. Doesn't mean he's in Hyrule.

I must've missed the memo that Darknuts are considered "Knights of Hyrule."

I'm not, but they look like knights, what with swords and armor and such. And we are talking about looks, here.

If that's the case why doesn't he just materialize some flesh? And a right eye?

I don't know, because he's a necrophiliac?

Do you have any proof to these "That's how the Japanese percieve ghosts and wolves" claims?

Not on hand, but it should be as easy to find as anything else based on mythology. It's all really just folklore I grew up with, so it's not like I read it off a website.

And your argument is that he's some other hero? Newsflash: prior to TP, there is only one hero who saves Hyrule. I'll give you three guesses as to who that is.

Says who? The timeline is so convulted now that there's little to no absolutes anymore.

[D~N]

Ghosts can interact physically. IE Poltergeists. Besides, he's called the Hero's Spirit. There's also the possibility that all the training the Spirit gives Link is in his mind or something.

Hmm, I see. My interpretation of ghosts is weird, I guess >_>

It is VERY convinient that my sister just got up to the forest temple. She just passed the wolf/knight, and I watched very carefully. He wears a tunic. A tatered, destroyed, armored tunic. He is very tall, and wears a stalchild's helmit. He has vines on his right shoulder. Most of his armor is on his upper arms. His 'lower' armor is in the shape of a tunic. His sword is very identical to Link's. His shield is round.

What impresses me is the tunic-shapped lower-part that I never noticed before. I don't know what you can make of that, but it seems to support my theory nicely. I'll try to find a picture that depicts this if possible. Until then, or until someone proves me wrong (like always =P) I'll continue to search for more stuff.


EDIT:
Wikipedia sums this all up very nicely:
The Hero's Spirit (also called the Hero's Shade due to his dark skeleton like appearance) appears many times when Link, in wolf form, mimics the tunes of various howling stones located throughout Hyrule, some tunes being from Ocarina of Time, and some from Majora's Mask (some are yet unidentified). When Link then locates the wolf after a primary meeting, he transports Link to a surreal white plane with some visual similarities to various Hylian landmarks. Although he first appears as a golden wolf (also called the White Wolf by the official game guide), he proceeds to transform into an undead soldier wearing gilded armor, and teaches Link "Hidden Techniques". Once all seven of these techniques are successfully learned (over the entire course of the game), the Hero's Spirit tells Link that he "accepted the path of the Hero", but was unable to pass on his learnings, and so by teaching Link, he is able to finally able to move on. When the swordsman says his farewells and proceeds to the afterlife, he says to Link "Go and do not falter, my child." It is hinted in this way that the undead hero is an ancestor to the current Link and, in turn, another "Link" generation before him, most likely the Link from Ocarina of Time. He directly states that some of the techniques he teaches Link are only passed down through their blood-line. Also, the Spirit's ability to transform into a wolf might also hint that he and Link are the same in some way, since Link can also turn into a wolf in this game. Midna states in the game to Zelda that Link (who is now in wolf form by this point) is not exactly the help she had in mind which has made some fans believe that she had heard of the Hero's Spirit/Shade and wanted his help (and since the said hero has a wolf form too it could be a possible hint to why Midna was drawn to Link). If the Hero's Spirit really is the Ocarnia of Time Link, he would most likely be a grand-father or a great-grand-father to the current Link due to all the decades that have passed.

Edited by D~N, 31 December 2006 - 07:08 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

The fact that he could've been left handed in atleast one of the versions should be enough.

News flash: The Wii version isn't canon. Nintendo mirrored the entire game, so you have to reverse it if you want any sort of canonity from the game in that regard.

Besides, it's unreasonable to think that Link is the one and only swordsman in all of the universe whose left handed.

Not in a fictional fantasy universe where some green-clad kid gets reborn to fight an evil wizard dude over and over again.

Simply put, there are no such left handed swordsman until Nintendo creates one, and they haven't as of yet.

Then why's he called the Hero's Spirit?

Because he is the spirit of the ancient hero that resides within Link. But, as he says, he is not the hero anymore. Link is the hero. His new incarnation, and stuff.

[Vertiboy]

He was a hero long ago but nothing else is mentioned. Seriously, if Nintendo wanted him to be the Hero of Time they would have modelled him to look the same by giving the character a green tunic.

I dunno but that guy looks like a gladiator, not a knight. Apart from them both being able to turn into wolves there's not much to relate them together. Why there's a wolf spirit anyway? It feels like Nintendo have a lot to expand upon here...

Well, without trying to sound rude, we don't work for Nintendo, so we are not the ones to say whether or not they would have gave him a green tunic if he was the Hero of Time. I think that is for them to decide, not us. If they want to make the Hero of Time appear as a purple elephant, then so be it because they are Nintendo, and we have little to no say over what they should do.

[Hero of Winds]

The fact that he could've been left handed in atleast one of the versions should be enough. Besides, it's unreasonable to think that Link is the one and only swordsman in all of the universe whose left handed.

You're confused. When Link is left-handed (GCN version), everyone else is right-handed. When Link is right-handed (Wii version), everyone else is left-handed. The point is that the Hero's Spirit uses the same hand as Link, whereas everyone else uses the opposite hand.

LOLZ FSA, LTTP, OOX.

First of all, none of those knights look like the Hero's Spirit (not that we see any Knights of Hyrule in ALttP anyways). Secondly, as I said earlier, being a knight =/= being a hero.

I did. I see Link in a forest. Doesn't mean he's in Hyrule.

Link is in the Lost Woods before going to Termina, and then we see him in a similar forest after leaving Termina. You're really reaching if you think the forest at the end is a different area (which doesn't even make sense, as he would be abandoning his search for Navi).

I don't know, because he's a necrophiliac?

Is this another of one your "unable to say anything remotely intelligent" comments?

Not on hand, but it should be as easy to find as anything else based on mythology. It's all really just folklore I grew up with, so it's not like I read it off a website.

So basically you've tried to refute this argument with claims about Japanese mythology that have no source? Tip for the future: when arguing, or refuting an argument, making baseless claims hurts your credibility.

Says who? The timeline is so convulted now that there's little to no absolutes anymore.

Fact: TP is a sequel to OoT
Theory: There are Zelda games preceding OoT

There could be other Links from before OoT, or in-between OoT and TP. But given how much Miyamoto and Aonuma have gone out of their way to cement TP's status as an OoT sequel (regardless of what timeline you adhere to), and considering the game only makes mention of one hero, I think it's pretty obvious that the intention is Hero's Spirit = Hero of Time.

[Duke Serkol]

wears a stalchild's helmit.

Stalchilds' had helmets?
MM only perhaps? I do remember they were soldiers in that one... always made me wonder if the average Ikanian was akin to a pygmy.

[D~N]

^yes, similar to what they wore in MM

[Showsni]

Simply put, there are no such left handed swordsman until Nintendo creates one, and they haven't as of yet.

Link's uncle is left handed in official art.


It seems clear that the ghost was a Hero, or a Link if you will. This doesn't necessarily mean he was the Hero of Time in particular, though. He could have been any past Link, or one we haven't seen.

[FDL]

I'd like to add something even though I guess some of this stuff was messed up from a crash or something. I think that the point that OoT/MM Link never used some of the Shade's moves really isn't a good point at all. The last move he teaches you is a move that only the HoT used, which is the red, more powerful, spin attack. Link learns this in MM from the Great Fairy and he's the only Link who learns a more powerful spin attack that isn't the hurricane spin. So, really, I don't think you can neccessarily use moves as evidence. Also, I'd like to mention in regards to the point that he doesn't wear a green tunic, the Darknuts in TWW DO wear a green tunic-esque thing under their armor, are they the Hero of Time instead?

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 15 January 2007 - 10:54 AM.

[Arturo]

Maybe it has been suggested before, but isn't the fact that he teaches you OoT-MM songs enough to be sure he's the HoT?

[Tekky]

What really swung it for me was him telling Link that he too chose the path of the Hero...

[FDL]

I sort of think that he might be the HoT. I mean, it seems to be somewhat wishful thinking that he definetly is, but there are some things that point to that. I mean, after playing through it a second time and seeing the initial encounter with him again, it seems he has some hunch that Ganondorf may be behind this stuff. And we don't know that even if it's in the CT, Link didn't encounter Ganondorf anyway and possibly helped subdue him.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Even though my own personal fanon has the HoT growing up and wandering away from Hyrule and becoming really badass and cloak-wearing, and how completely suitable it would be for him to become a shade, wandering around forever searching for Navi, ..... I really think this is just another Link. Possibly the hero of the TP backstory (assuming there was a Link involved when Ganondorf escaped and got banished to the twilight realm. prolly was). Still, considering those moves were moves from windwaker and AoL, we'd best not look too hard into -that-

[Evilsbane]

TBH, I believe that it's the HoT but it seems that some of the people who share my view are being jerks. I'd outline it this way:
The armour doesn't prove a single thing one way or another. It's different, but on the other hand it'd make sense if OoT Link changed his clothes every once in a while.
He's referred to as a Hero, and says that he chose the path of the Hero for himself.
It's in a game where almost every second sentence is an homage to OoT.
You contact him by howling OoT/MM songs.
Aonouma said that the entire point of the aesthetic of the game was to 'make Link look cool'. A one-eyed skeleton is pretty cool, so I don't consider anything of how different the Spirit looks to be important.
He says that he can only teach the hidden skills to those 'of our bloodline'.
He immediately says that TP Link is a disgrace to the tunic. This implies that he knows he, himself, wasn't.

Nevertheless, there is no conclusive proof and even if one accepts that it's the spirit of a former Link, one need not necessarily accept that it is the HoT. It could be the Hero of Men for all we know.
But I doubt it.

[FDL]

Even though my own personal fanon has the HoT growing up and wandering away from Hyrule and becoming really badass and cloak-wearing, and how completely suitable it would be for him to become a shade, wandering around forever searching for Navi, ..... I really think this is just another Link. Possibly the hero of the TP backstory (assuming there was a Link involved when Ganondorf escaped and got banished to the twilight realm. prolly was). Still, considering those moves were moves from windwaker and AoL, we'd best not look too hard into -that-

The hero of the TP backstory seems to be the HoT to me. I mean, we're told that the ToC that TP Link has was once the ancient hero's. So, anyway, because they only refer to one ancient hero throughout TP, and refer to him as THE hero rather than A hero, and in the end the Wolf says he chose life as THE hero, I think we've got the HoT. Also, the thing he says the last time "Return Hyrule to it's former splendor" makes me imagine OoT Link, seeing the land he loves destroyed, takes on an apprentice in his great grandson.

[Wanchimaera]

So, anyway, because they only refer to one ancient hero throughout TP, and refer to him as THE hero rather than A hero, and in the end the Wolf says he chose life as THE hero, I think we've got the HoT.

They did this in OoT, too. When Sheik talks to Link for the first time, he/she mentions that Link (holding the Master Sword) looks like THE legendary hero, not A legendary hero.

[FDL]

Well, what's your point? In OoT, she was referring to THE hero prophesized to appear, while in TP they're talking about THE hero who already did. Either way, there's only on hero that's mentioned.