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Why there might not be an Evil Spirit within the Magic Trident after all...


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#31 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:07 PM

You. Made. This. Up.


No, I inferred this with all the evidence I provided in my last post that you conveniently ignored.

Curiously enough, this is the same concept used in Christianity. Only... Christianity doesn't believe that evil people have demonic souls--they're just evil for one reason or another, usually because they're tempted by other evil beings.


Ever head of the Book of Revelations? Ever seen the Omen? One human is in fact a demon and will bring humanity to an end. Ganondorf is the same principle.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 01:09 PM.


#32 LionHarted

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:13 PM

No, I inferred this with all the evidence I provided in my last post that you conveniently ignored.

You are still ignoring the quote that says that the Evil King Ganon was born of the Triforce's power.

#33 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:17 PM

You are still ignoring the quote that says that the Evil King Ganon was born of the Triforce's power.


No. You said it yourself that his identity was born from the Triforce's power. Do you think darkness had a name before it was born in Hyrule? Ganon is a Gerudo name for example.

There are plenty of implications that Ganondorf's soul was that of darkness and OoT's transformation is no evidence of the opposite argument when the exact same thing occurred in FSA.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 01:24 PM.


#34 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:24 PM

You know jhurvid, the Darkness in Zelda is a servant to the Goddesses, as evident by the fact that there is a Shadow Temple.

Uh-oh! Bye bye baseless Christian fan fiction!

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 November 2006 - 01:26 PM.


#35 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:26 PM

You know jhurvid, the Darkness in Zelda is a servant to the Goddesses, as evident by the fact that there is a Shadow Temple.


The elements in OoT have literally no relevance to the powers of the Sages. They had no relevance to the power in TWW or ALTTP and lets face it, they are just dungeon themes.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 01:27 PM.


#36 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:28 PM

The elements in OoT have literally no relevance to the powers of the Sages. They had no relevance to the power in TWW or ALTTP and lets face it. They are just themes.

Except they symbolize the elements of the word.

#37 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:33 PM

Except they symbolize the elements of the word.


Do they? What defines the elements of the Temples? Darunia says that the Sage of Fire is powered by Fire Spirits. Does this mean the Sage of Spirit is powered by Spirit spirits? Immediately, you see the contradictions within applying the elements of the Temples to the storyline.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 01:33 PM.


#38 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:50 PM

Do they? What defines the elements of the Temples? Darunia says that the Sage of Fire is powered by Fire Spirits. Does this mean the Sage of Spirit is powered by Spirit spirits?

No, that just means the Spirit Sage is in control of the non-elemental Spirits.

Immediately, you see the contradictions within applying the elements of the Temples to the storyline.

I see how you make up contradictions that don't exist.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 November 2006 - 01:51 PM.


#39 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:51 PM

No, that just means the Spirit Sage is in control of the non-elemental Spirits.


I thought the Sages represent elements of the world. Now you're telling me that one of the Sages represents spirits that don't have elements? This argument died before it begun.

#40 LionHarted

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:52 PM

No. They don't represent the elements. They dwell in/guard the temples in which various spirits are worshipped. Forest spirits in the forest temple, fire spirits in the fire temple, etc. I can find the quotes for this, if you want.

Forest is not an element; it is a region. Remember, the "elements" are Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind.

Spoiler : click to show/hide
Interestingly enough, "spirits of light" are featured in Twilight Princess.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2006 - 01:57 PM.


#41 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:55 PM

No. They don't. They guard the temples in which various spirits are worshipped. Forest spirits in the forest temple, fire spirits in the fire temple, etc.

Forest is not an element; it is a region. Remember, the "elements" are Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind.


I was just elaborating his argument. I don't actually believe that, as you well know.

#42 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:00 PM

I thought the Sages represent elements of the world. Now you're telling me that one of the Sages represents spirits that don't have elements?

The Spirits themselves are the element, only they're not affiliated with the other forces of nature.

No. They don't represent the elements. They dwell in/guard the temples in which various spirits are worshipped. Forest spirits in the forest temple, fire spirits in the fire temple, etc. I can find the quotes for this, if you want.

Forest is not an element; it is a region. Remember, the "elements" are Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind.

You do know how many other definitions of "elements" there are, right?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 November 2006 - 02:03 PM.


#43 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:07 PM

The Spirits themselves are the element, only they're not affiliated with the other forces of nature.


Shadow is a force of nature? The evidence is that darkness directly opposes nature. Both Light and Order are created by the Gods and Darkness has been proved to directly oppose both forces. Therefore, Shadow cannot be a creation of the Gods or it must be totally unrelated to Darkness.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 02:07 PM.


#44 Arturo

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:10 PM

The world is dualist. There can't be the concept of man without the concept of woman, day without night, light without darkness...

Darkness is necessary to exist. If it didn't exist, light wouldn't either.

#45 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:13 PM

Shadow is a force of nature? The evidence is that darkness directly opposes nature.

And yet the Sheikah are a tribe of Shadows...

Both Light and Order are created by the Gods and Darkness has been proved to directly oppose both forces.

Where do you get this? Certainly not from any Zelda game.

Therefore, Shadow cannot be a creation of the Gods or it must be totally unrelated to Darkness.

The Goddesses created everything in Zelda. EVERYTHING. That includes Darkness.

Period.

#46 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:14 PM

The world is dualist. There can't be the concept of man without the concept of woman, day without night, light without darkness...

Darkness is necessary to exist. If it didn't exist, light wouldn't either.


More importantly, if the power of Light is creation of the Gods (which it is, as stated with the origins of the Master Sword, and the Order that makes Hyrule (which is embodied within the Triforce) is also a creation of the Gods, then the force of darkness that both smothers light and corrupts order (both proved) cannot be a creation of the Gods. It exists as an opposition to what they stand for.

And yet the Sheikah are a tribe of Shadows...


Read the OoT script. They are the "shadows of the Hylians".

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 02:15 PM.


#47 LionHarted

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:15 PM

You do know how many other definitions of "elements" there are, right?

The word "elements" isn't even used in OoT, so I can't see why it would matter.

More importantly, if the power of Light is creation of the Gods (which it is, as stated with the origins of the Master Sword, and the Order that makes Hyrule (which is embodied within the Triforce) is also a creation of the Gods, then the force of darkness that both smothers light and corrupts order (both proved) cannot be a creation of the Gods. It exists as an opposition to what they stand for.

I would have to agree with this, although it doesn't necessarily entail anything with respect to Ganondorf possessing a demon soul--just enough evil to obtain powers contrary to the powers of light.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2006 - 02:17 PM.


#48 Showsni

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:25 PM

Shadow is a force of nature? The evidence is that darkness directly opposes nature. Both Light and Order are created by the Gods and Darkness has been proved to directly oppose both forces. Therefore, Shadow cannot be a creation of the Gods or it must be totally unrelated to Darkness.


Darkness is merely the absence of light. It is not evil. It does not oppose anything; it's certainly not a sentient force working to bring down the goddesses!

He's not completely human; his soul is that of the demon.

What? How do you work that out? He's just a thief who gets lucky and takes the triforce. Does teh world of Zelda even have "demons" in the traditional sense?

You need to understand that humanity is being defined by the body as well as as the soul and that there is no direct transition from just "complete human" to "complete demon". Ganondorf in TWW had already become "the devil" but he still thought about his homeland, the emotions of that situation, which shows he had not lost all of his humanity.

Zelda doesn't have a devil, or at least we've never been told of one.

Ganon is not just a human who becomes evil with power, he is the actual key to Hyrule's destruction. Whenever evil is revived, it is always through him.

No; any unworthy force who obtains the triforce will trigger the Prophecy of the Great Cataclysm. Ganon's the only one we've seen do this in games, but that doesn't mean he's the only one who is capable of it, or who has in events we're not shown. In any case, it's still argued by some that we see different people called Ganon in some games.

We know that both light and order are creations of the Gods. We know that darkness wants to destroy order and is repelled by the light.

Um, no... Darkness doesn't want anything! It's incapable of thought!

In other words, the power of the darkness is the opposite to everything that the Gods stand for. Reading the text again, I'll grant you that the use of the term "chaos" does not appear in LoZ's intro. However, if there is an opposite to order, it would have existed from the very beginning of time, as chaos. If darkness is against the light and seeks to destroy the order, then we can infer that it is chaos in a physical/metaphorical form.

As long as darkness existed since the beginning of time, the embodiment of darkness existed, which is Ganon. He is the incarnation of darkness.

The Zelda goddesses don't stand for anything. They came, created a bunch of stuff, and left again. They sent a few oracles, and flooded the world. That's about all we know of them. Yes, Nayru created the laws that govern the world, including light and so on - but also including chaos, which is merely the rules working so complexly that it's hard to see how.
Ganon is not the incarnation of darkness. He's just a man. Darkness doesn't have an embodiment.

Hardly, you're trying to tell me that Ganondorf didn't have unnatural power as a Gerudo thief when it is the only sensible explanation of events before he took the Triforce of Power.

He's got powerful magic, certainly. But why not? There are lots of powerful magicians in Zelda. Elzo was probably even more powerful than Ganon, since he created a cap that could emulate the triforce.

#49 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:27 PM

Read the OoT script. They are the "shadows of the Hylians".

So why aren't they evil? Do note that Bongo Bongo is the "Great Shadow Spirit" so I doubt it things are as black and white as you make them out to be.

More importantly, if the power of Light is creation of the Gods (which it is, as stated with the origins of the Master Sword, and the Order that makes Hyrule (which is embodied within the Triforce) is also a creation of the Gods, then the force of darkness that both smothers light and corrupts order (both proved) cannot be a creation of the Gods. It exists as an opposition to what they stand for.

Then explain where the darkness came from.

#50 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:27 PM

Alright, here's all the evidence that the Gods did not create Darkness.

Okay, first of all we know that the Gods created Order in Hyrule.

Before time began, before spirits and life existed...
Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule...


In the times long past, before man first emerged, the gods descended upon the world when it was nothing but chaos. Using their various abilities, they brought order and life to the world.


Originally, Hyrule was a world of Chaos and the Gods created Order in Hyrule, from which life began. The Triforce, the power of the Gods, embodied that Order.

After forming all that is, when it was time for them to depart this realm, the gods consummated the land with a symbol forged of their own power, in the form of a sacred, golden, triangle: the "Triforce." Their course finally running to completion, the gods left the Triforce to govern this land.


Now, Ganon's power (the power of Darkness) attacks the Order that the Gods created. In other words, darkness opposes the Gods themselves.

It was the power left behind by the wicked heart of Ganon, that was thoroughly corrupting the order in Hyrule.


To counter the darkness from destroying Hyrule, the Gods directly intervene. They provide prophecies for the people to follow and create the "Heroes" who are destined to defeat the darkness. The power of Light is also the Gods own for the people to wield.

The fact that the Master Sword lost the power to repel evil suggests to me that something has happened to the sages who infused the blade with the gods' power.


I had a dream... In the dream, dark storm clouds were billowing over the land of Hyrule... But suddenly, a ray of light shot out of the forest, parted the clouds and lit up the ground... The light turned into a figure holding a green and shining stone, followed by a fairy...


So with all due respect, the Gods created the power of Light to prevent the Darkness/Chaos from destroying the Order that they had created and remaking Hyrule in the image of darkness.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 02:30 PM.


#51 LionHarted

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 03:29 PM

Then explain where the darkness came from.

Darkness is the absense of light. If the gods created light, anything that defies the gods (the light) is dark. As Twilight Princess puts it:
Spoiler : click to show/hide
People who "shun the light."

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2006 - 03:29 PM.


#52 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 04:53 PM

Now, Ganon's power (the power of Darkness) attacks the Order that the Gods created. In other words, darkness opposes the Gods themselves.

The chaos of war =/= The chaos of cosmos.

And Ganondorf is not the only “dark” being in Hyrule.

To counter the darkness from destroying Hyrule, the Gods directly intervene. They provide prophecies for the people to follow and create the "Heroes" who are destined to defeat the darkness. The power of Light is also the Gods own for the people to wield.

That is (supposedly) because they care for the Hylians, not because they hate Ganondorf.

Darkness is the absense of light. If the gods created light, anything that defies the gods (the light) is dark.

That would make the night evil.

Then again, Ganon is, after all, the "evil incarnation of darkness." That doesn't say much about Ganondorf since he had just used the Power of the Gods to transform into a demon, but clearly there is certain evil in darkness.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 November 2006 - 05:03 PM.


#53 LionHarted

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 05:02 PM

That would make the night evil.

It would make the night dark. ;)

Night and day are often metaphors for the duality of nature.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2006 - 05:02 PM.


#54 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 06:16 PM

The chaos of war =/= The chaos of cosmos.


When did I ever refer to the chaos of war? When did I refer to chaos other than that which existed before the Gods created Hyrule?

And Ganondorf is not the only “dark” being in Hyrule.

Yet all other dark beings serve Ganon at different points in the series.

That is (supposedly) because they care for the Hylians, not because they hate Ganondorf.


It's both. Ganondorf threatens everything that the Gods created, more than just the Hylians. So the Gods intervene directly so that he may be sealed or destroyed.

#55 LionHarted

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 06:20 PM

When did I ever refer to the chaos of war?

Any mention of "chaos" with respect to Ganon has to do with the chaos of war.

Yet all other dark beings serve Ganon at different points in the series

Not Midna. :P

#56 Arturo

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 06:37 PM

Neither does Impa, the Dark (Yami) Sage

#57 Raien

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 08:47 PM

Any mention of "chaos" with respect to Ganon has to do with the chaos of war.


That actually depends on how you define the "chaos of war". Ganon's power was said to "corrupt the order in Hyrule", and in OoT/FSA Ganon's power tried to cover Hyrule and transform it into the Dark World, which supports the statement as the order that was created by the Gods had been threatened by darkness.

The fact is that the metaphorical opposite of "order" is "chaos" and so the fact that darkness corrupts order in the exact same respect that darkness corrupts light (where both order and light are powers of the gods), implies that the darkness that existed since the beginning of time is related directly to the chaos that existed before the beginning of time. Darkness corrupts Order; it is therefore Chaos.

Neither does Impa, the Dark (Yami) Sage


Impa's power cannot be that of darkness because darkness seeks to destroy Hyrule, not to protect it. Perhaps TP will explain the differentiation of the terms or perhaps it will ignore it to show that the elements have no genuine relevance in the timeline. It is possible that Darkness uses other metaphorical forms of energy such as Shadow and Twilight as vessels for its power.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 08:48 PM.


#58 LionHarted

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:29 PM

It is possible that Darkness uses other metaphorical forms of energy such as Shadow and Twilight as vessels for its power.

Darkness =/= evil.

#59 Alardonin

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:17 PM

Ganondorf did not possess the power to ruin the world, the title of "King of Evil/Darkness", or the ability to transform into a monster until he took the Triforce/Trident. Being evil does not automatically mean someone is possessed by a demon. Is Vaati possessed by a demon?


That really is a short definition of demon if you asked me..... the word "demon" does not only define a different entity from anything the human mind or body could conceive, it can also be characterized by Human actions and [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] more then that.

With a pair of witches as his surrogate mothers, I wouldn't be surprised if he could fly, too.


Even if that was sarcasm, he actually can.


As long as darkness existed since the beginning of time, the embodiment of darkness existed, which is Ganon. He is the incarnation of darkness.


I don't know if this is correct, but i just couldn't find the patience to check "Ancient Creators of Hyrule! Now, open the sealed door and send the "evil incarnation of darkness". Into the void of the evil realm! "


No. They don't represent the elements. They dwell in/guard the temples in which various spirits are worshipped. Forest spirits in the forest temple, fire spirits in the fire temple, etc. I can find the quotes for this, if you want.

Forest is not an element; it is a region. Remember, the "elements" are Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind.

Spoiler : click to show/hide
Interestingly enough, "spirits of light" are featured in Twilight Princess.


:o
Spoiler : click to show/hide
And the Twilight Realm could actually be the expansion of this "chaos" that jhurvid has been addressing in this entire topic.
:P .


You could be asking youselves, this question: Alardonin your not really buying into this c***, right? My answer to that would be, Why should i be buying yours over his? This is Zelda we are talking about people...although you all know that, so..... i'm making a fool out of myself.

Provide me with some proof, showing that he is wrong? Better yet: Your Gods destroyed you! Provide me with some solid proof that his interpretation of this words, is more "wrong" then yours?

This actually turned out to be an interesting topic and i must say jhurvid that i never saw the legends from that perspective or at least that very little part of it concerning Ganondorf. Even if you just took some of it, if not mostly all of it out of your arse :P.

#60 Raien

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 07:18 AM

Darkness =/= evil.


No. You have to take these terms as metaphors as well as physical forces. The power of Darkness/Chaos represents evil whereas the power of the Gods (Order/Light) represents good and peace in the world. Any character who supports or empowers "good" will be empowering Order and Light whereas any character who empowers "evil" will empower Darkness and Chaos as well. Take Vaati in TMC: when he transformed, it was into a being of darkness and Hyrule Castle was transformed into "Dark Hyrule Castle". Even though he did not possess the power of darkness, that is what his heart/Light Force transformed him into.

This actually turned out to be an interesting topic and i must say jhurvid that i never saw the legends from that perspective or at least that very little part of it concerning Ganondorf. Even if you just took some of it, if not mostly all of it out of your arse :P.


I used quotes to support my darkness/chaos explanation and inferred from OoT and FSA that Ganondorf possesses the soul of a demon. It is altogether possible that Ganondorf is simply an evil man who gains power but I think that there is such an extreme emphasis on Ganondorf as pure evil that he must possess some form of omnipotence not unlike Damien from The Omen. Then there is the "Evil Spirit" quote in FSA which, if it speaks to the reader and not of the Trident itself, proves that Ganondorf's soul is tainted.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 November 2006 - 07:20 AM.





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