132 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

lol migrating races. ¬_¬

[Mgoblue201]

It's neither speculative, nor confusing. I will elaborate a bit more:

Ganondorf has two forms: the human form, that is an intelligent being, and the beast form, that is pure rage and bloodthirst. In the beggining, both forms coexisted in Ganondorf's soul, and it was the wish on the Triforce what gave it a physical form. When Ganon was resurrected by Twinrova in OoX, they were only able to summon the raging beast, and this beast remained within the Trident.
The Trident was possibly enshrined in the Pyramid, maybe by Ganon's followers, waiting for his return.
His human form, that wasn't evil per se, reincarnated as a normal male Gerudo, and was destined to guide his Tribe. But, because of the influence of the Trident, he became greedier and greedier, and he decided to look for that power. When he touched the Trident, his beast form and his human form were reunited.

End of the story

I have a problem with what you're saying in that you're rewriting a lot of the history of Zelda because of one or two ambiguous lines. The OOX trident theory is, let's face it, probably something that didn't happen. If Aonuma ever explains this do you really think that would be one of his first explanations? That's one of my litmus tests for a sound timeline theory, and as you might have garnered from my previous posts, I'm a stickler for that kind of stuff. It just sounds like something to suit your theory. Ganon has been killed, he's been sealed away in otherwordly realms, he's been sealed inside weapons. All of these were blatant when they happened. The Oracles don't even make an allusion to this.

My other problem is the makeup of Ganon himself. In every other game we don't see Ganon as a synthesis of any distinct parts. Even in TP, which came after FSA, do we see no allusion to it. The Oracles certainly makes no hint of it (they make the distinction of Ganon simply being mindless as opposed to the revived version being any sort of form). And that still doesn't really explain what these forms are, how they got there, etc.

It's not that this theory is really bad (I find it much more believable than the possession one), but I don't see where it has grounds to stand on. Of course no text in the series proves it wrong necessarily. Why would they? They'd never even have reason to bring this up. However, there's so little evidence for it. All we really have is an ambiguous line about a supposed spirit in the trident from a text that can barely be read.

[Arturo]

I have a problem with what you're saying in that you're rewriting a lot of the history of Zelda because of one or two ambiguous lines. The OOX trident theory is, let's face it, probably something that didn't happen. If Aonuma ever explains this do you really think that would be one of his first explanations? That's one of my litmus tests for a sound timeline theory, and as you might have garnered from my previous posts, I'm a stickler for that kind of stuff. It just sounds like something to suit your theory. Ganon has been killed, he's been sealed away in otherwordly realms, he's been sealed inside weapons. All of these were blatant when they happened. The Oracles don't even make an allusion to this.

I know, but since it's canon that Twinrova summoned a brainless Ganon, it is the best opportunity for the evil spirit to possess the Trident.

My other problem is the makeup of Ganon himself. In every other game we don't see Ganon as a synthesis of any distinct parts. Even in TP, which came after FSA, do we see no allusion to it. The Oracles certainly makes no hint of it (they make the distinction of Ganon simply being mindless as opposed to the revived version being any sort of form). And that still doesn't really explain what these forms are, how they got there, etc.

We are not told this, but we see it. Take TWW. We see in it first a really moderated Ganondorf, but after he doesn't get the Triforce, he suddenly becomes the raging beast. He doesn't transform, but he becomes it. It is clear he has a double personality.

It's not that this theory is really bad (I find it much more believable than the possession one), but I don't see where it has grounds to stand on. Of course no text in the series proves it wrong necessarily. Why would they? They'd never even have reason to bring this up. However, there's so little evidence for it. All we really have is an ambiguous line about a supposed spirit in the trident from a text that can barely be read.

Well, it fits perfectly with what we know, and it is very simple. So,... Occam's Razor, my friend.

[SOAP]

There's a woman named Telma in TP that's supposively Gerudo but lives in Kakariko I believe. I've never seen her myself so I'm not sure. By the time of FSA, the Gerudo are a nomadic race, and even live in temporary huts wheras in OoT they're more stationary. Perhaps the Gerudo became nomadic somewhere between OoT and FSA and now wander around harsh countryside, still looking for their own home.

[Duke Serkol]

Take TWW. We see in it first a really moderated Ganondorf, but after he doesn't get the Triforce, he suddenly becomes the raging beast. He doesn't transform, but he becomes it. It is clear he has a double personality.

I think I would become a raging beast too if I had strived for centuries (many of which spent sealed in an empty and a time deprived lands) to obtain a certain golden relic only to have some kind of ghost beat me to it when I was just one step from it.

There's a woman named Telma in TP that's supposively Gerudo but lives in Kakariko I believe. I've never seen her myself so I'm not sure. By the time of FSA, the Gerudo are a nomadic race, and even live in temporary huts wheras in OoT they're more stationary.

Telma is not a Gerudo, she has pointed ears (and not everybody in TP does).
By the way, I've been thinking about Gerudos... isn't it strange that they are not in TP? I'm not saying "OMG they are most definitely not in the desert!", as it could expand beyond what we've seen, but the thing is, we meet none.
After OoT was released, I had this belief that the Gerudo without their king had to mingle with Hylians and their direct descendants became the thieves of ALttP (there's one that really looks like Ganondorf, only shorter).
Their absence in both TWW and TP could support this... except they are still around centuries later to let Ganondorf be born again in FSA. So I guess either they are still around in TP too, unseen, or the various development teams at Ninty have different ideas on the subject

Edited by Duke Serkol, 20 December 2006 - 11:37 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Take TWW. We see in it first a really moderated Ganondorf, but after he doesn't get the Triforce, he suddenly becomes the raging beast. He doesn't transform, but he becomes it. It is clear he has a double personality.

I think I would become a raging beast too if I had strived for centuries (many of which spent sealed in an empty and a time deprived lands) to obtain a certain golden relic only to have some kind of ghost beat me to it when I was just one step from it.

Yeah, especially if the ghost in question then proceeded to using that certain relic to wish the life out of me. No, I wouldn’t be very happy at all.

By the way, I've been thinking about Gerudos... isn't it strange that they are not in TP?

Not really. We know Ganondorf led them in their invasion of Hyrule, but as you know, he was defeated, and latter sentenced to death. I don't think the Hylians were very forgiving of the Gerudo, if you get my point.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 20 December 2006 - 12:28 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

I don't think the Hylians were very forgiving of the Gerudo, if you get my point.

Not quite actually... are you suggesting they were forced to flee to more distant lands? Or that the Hylains exterminated/banished through the mirror them?

I though, that suppose you mean the first (given FSA and the Hylia not being so evil)

[Hero of Legend]

I don't think any Gerudo other than Ganondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm, otherwise the Twili would have noticed. But you are right about the other things. Either they were exiled or destroyed. More likely the former, as you say, though.

But I wonder, how do you figure FSA is after TP?

[Duke Serkol]

Speaking of that... how come ganondorf showed up as a giant flaming face in the world of the Twili? One that needed a host body (it's not like Link's body gets destroyed when he enters it...)

Well, I already places FSA before ALttP, and TP looks like it goes between OoT and ALttP. And if you consider that in TP Ganon dies, FSA actually becomes instrumental to connecting the games.
I could elaborate further, but I think that should suffice.

[Hero of Legend]

Speaking of that... how come ganondorf showed up as a giant flaming face in the world of the Twili? One that needed a host body (it's not like Link's body gets destroyed when he enters it...)

Well, Link only became a wolf (as opposed to a mere spirit) because he had the ToC, so I would assume the ToP had something to do with Ganondorf's state in the Twilight Realm.

Well, I already places FSA before ALttP, and TP looks like it goes between OoT and ALttP. And if you consider that in TP Ganon dies, FSA actually becomes instrumental to connecting the games. I could elaborate further, but I think that should suffice.

Fair enough. I'm not sure what to think about the FS series, but I feel they are definitely connected to TP. Especially TMC, and of course, the Dark Mirror in FSA. But maybe it’s just a connection in concept...

[MikePetersSucks]

I would assume it was part of the Sage's Seal or something. "Hey, you guys, let's make him a disembodied spirit before sealing him up." "LOL TOTALLEE!"

[Hero of Legend]

The sages weren't really in the position of doing anything like that since they kinda improvised a little when Ganondorf broke lose and killed one of them after they failed to execute him and stuff.

[Duke Serkol]

Well, Link only became a wolf (as opposed to a mere spirit) because he had the ToC, so I would assume the ToP had something to do with Ganondorf's state in the Twilight Realm.

Ah, yes that sounds like it could really be it. Though I don't believe they actually had the Triforce parts, but whether that is the cause or their being chosen by the gods, the result is what matters.
So does this mean all prisoners sent through lost their body and became wandering spirits? Midna does say her ancestors, the interlopers that were banished there, "became shadows". Now they don't look like the spirits you see in Hyrule (you don't even need wolf senses to see them) but it could be because "life" adapted to their new world?

Fair enough. I'm not sure what to think about the FS series, but I feel they are definitely connected to TP. Especially TMC, and of course, the Dark Mirror in FSA. But maybe it’s just a connection in concept...

Yes, that's what we call a redundant plot

The sages weren't really in the position of doing anything like that since they kinda improvised a little when Ganondorf broke lose and killed one of them after they failed to execute him and stuff.

Is killed the right word here? I mean, maybe it's just something I assume wrongly, but aren't those sages all mere spirits?
I actually thought (while watching the "flashback") that maybe we were seeing them as spirits during ganondorf's banishment because that's how Link knows them (same way as he and Ilia "acted out" the other vision), but seeing as he disappears in a puff of smoke leaving only a mask, I guess they really were spirits already back then. Which is weird, because ghosts don't usually meddle in earthly affairs like banishing evil warmongers