156 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

But Zelda doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom in that ending so that means Link's ToC was a double.

Correct.

Now where's the ToC in the Adult timeline? You know, the one that gets split before TWW?

It alters your chronology, which in itself is a paradox.

Notice that I asked "how". I don't care if you say it alters my chronology. I want to know how it does

Read up on it here for more references to other people's work on paradoxes:-
http://en.wikipedia....dfather_paradox

A split timeline creates a grandfather paradox. If Link erases his trip into the future, then his trip[s] into the past could never have existed, and therefore he can no longer exist (after having returned from the nonexistent trip to the future).

Edited by LionHarted, 20 October 2006 - 06:54 PM.

[Mad Scrub]

The split timeline must of changed since I was last on here. I never knew that any version of the split stated that there are two ToC pieces in the Child Timeline. Also, why the heck would Link retain the future ToC? If two ToC exists in the Child timeline, then there will be two pieces of Courage in every Zelda game thereafter—existing at the same time in the same dimension. Whoever made that version of the split—must have been seriously smoking something. (Please share some of that—puff…puff…give, cuz I’d like to get screwed up like that.) Or did you misinterpret the split theory?

There wouldn't be two ToC's in every Zelda Legend that occurs afterward. When Link is lured into Termina the ToC he brought with him from the future would split. So although the ToC that the HoT had would be sent with him to the past it would still exist in the future only this time it would be split and hidden throughout Hyrule in Treasure Chests. TWW mentions this and hints to the events of MM in The Legend of the Fairy. If you believe in a split timeline then this wouldn't work. Sorry for the late reply.

[Jumbie]

First off... Oh my God, what have you done, Tri-Enforcer!
So you read jhurvid's initial post, and maybe one or two more, but you didn't read on to how we have already disproven what he said? Now we have a huge mess here... I didn't even read the 5 latest posts, as everything has been said before.

Anyway, some one things are open:

Ah it now makes sense, if time was correcting itself to adapt to this new timline's presence, except why hasn't Zelda got the Triforce of Wisdom in the OoT ending as well?

This is simply not answerable. All we know is that Young Zelda doesn't have her ToW in the Child ending, although we would suppose her to have. We have to take this for canon, without understanding *why* it is as it is.

So him going to Termina in the Child timeline causes the Triforce to split in the Adult timeline? (the one he took out of the Adult line with him, no less) What? I'm severely confused.

No, Link going back to the past causes the ToC in the Adult timeline to leave his body. What happens to the ToC afterwards, and how it ends up split into shards in time for TWW's events, we don't know yet. Maybe Adult Zelda did it, but we will have to wait for TP to depict it.

Jumbie, you seem to be using the "Shinentai" trend to argue that Link's soul can exist in both timelines

Not knowingly..

It doesn't disintegrate. It becomes interdimensionally misplaced. If his soul WAS split, then both Links would be emotionless zombies or something.

With the word "disintegrate" I referred solely to his Adult body, if you remember, not to the soul. As for the soul, I simply didn't know what to with it, which is the reason why I mentioned your name inside all that rubbish.

Perhaps when Zelda sent back Link's soul, the Adult Link body wasn't disintegrated, but returned to the soul of the Link that properly lives in that body.

I don't really care where the body is brought to, fact is it vanishes from the Adult timeline. My theory was, as said long ago, just a crappy attempt to explain it since no one else tried. Now you have done so, so congrats.

Either way, Link's soul does not split, or he would have some severe mental and emotional issues.

Now I only need to know where TP Link gets his soul from, if it's not the one of Adult OoT Link reincarnated?

Isn't there a hypothesis that Termina is meant to represent a land of the dead? That would explain the Triforce images appearing there, as well as everyone's inability to take the Triforce there.

I've never heard of this, and I don't find it very plausible..

Now, don’t anyone say, ‘Link was separated from the elements. That’s why we don’t see the mark on Link while he’s in Termina.’ Before any of you say that—MM didn’t start in Termina—the game started off in Hyrule! During the brief time Link is shown in Hyrule—he displays no mark.

Too bad, I've already said that in my very first post in this thread The mark simply isn't seen in MM's Lost Woods because.. because.. ask the developers.

AoL Link doesn’t have any Triforce part to himself at that point of the story at least.

Well, only the ToW that he collected during the events of LoZ, and the ToP that he took from Ganon in the end of LoZ, but other than that, he has no Triforce pieces prior to AoL.

It’s safe to assume that all the marks shown in the Zelda series are pretty much intended to be the same.

Wrong. Again, read the whole topic and you'll find where I said that there exist two different Triforce marks in the Zelda series.

(Ricky) Of course it was taken by Ganondorf! Link returned to the Child timeline with Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm, so Ganondorf has got his ToP and Link his ToC.

This is actually me you quoted there. And I still stand to my point that Zelda doesn't have the ToW in the Child ending for an inexplicable reason.

[Mad Scrub]

We know (in a single timeline at least) that the Royal Family gets their hands on the ToW somehow. If Zelda didn't have the ToW at that time maybe TP will clear that up.

[Jumbie]

We know (in a single timeline at least) that the Royal Family gets their hands on the ToW somehow. If Zelda didn't have the ToW at that time maybe TP will clear that up.

Don't worry, this one issue is the same no matter if Single or Split Timeline

[Mad Scrub]

You could argue that since Link is switching between his child and adult self that his child self would still be equipped with the OoT. But at the beginning of MM we see Child Princess Zelda hand Link the OoT and it doesn't sound like Link's handed it to her and she's declined. This leads some people to believe that when Adult Princess Zelda sends Link to the past he is sent to a point in time before he took the MS from the PoT. Another thing is the MS is already in the PoT when he returns. The only problem with this is that the DoT couldn't possibly be open without the three Spiritual Stones could it? I suppose you could say if Adult Princess Zelda plays the OoT from a time when those three stones are present she could override it somehow but that would be purely based on fanfiction. If Ganon broke free of the seal I imagine he could travel from the SR/DW to Hyrule/LW whenever he wanted to. He would no longer require the OoT.

Come to think of it if Adult Princess Zelda sent Link to the past to a point in time after Ganondorf had gone into the SR Link would have the ToC from the child timeline right? But on his entrance to Termina it splits into eight shards and is locked inside Treasure Chests around Hyrule. In other words if events were to repeat themselves Adult Link wouldn't be able to receive the ToC once he had awoken from his seven year slumber would he? And it would eventually result in two O'soT. *Head explodes*. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 21 October 2006 - 06:32 PM.

[LionHarted]

Mad Scrub just essentially demonstrated the necessity of the double-Link theory. If there are two Links, we essentially side-step any problems with missing Ocarinas and Triforces by placing them in the hands of the second Link as well as the "original". We also avoid the "Link takes the Adult ToC into the Child timeline, so there can be no ToC in the Adult timeline" problem (but that's really only because I'm applying it to a single-timeline).

Edited by LionHarted, 21 October 2006 - 10:09 PM.

[Darunia]

First of all, this will have been my first post in over a year, so forgive my absence. I'm glad to be back.

Secondly, this topic has been debated virtually since OoT was released. To bring one issue in particular up, I'd like to point out an obvious source, the game itself. The issue I'm referring to is the possession of the Triforces being visible on the hands of the bearers.

The only time we know that any of the characters has a triforce within them, the backs of their hands are lit up with the piece they possess. To prove this, Ganon(dorf) has the ToP when he battles Link in OoT. That was apparent at the beginning of the battle, when he showed Link his Triforce mark lit up with power. When he was sealed by the sages, he says he still possesses the ToP. We don't see the back of his hand, but since he possessed it when his hand was lit up, I must logically conclude that it still is. Now, if we follow that same line of logic to the remaining two Triforce bearers, they too must have their respective marks illuminated.

Link, once he returns to his Child Timeline, still has his portion glowing. This can only mean one thing: he still possesses the ToC. There's not any other way to think of it, I don't believe. All of the evidence points to the illumination of the hands as a sign that the fore-ordained bearer is now in possession of their respective piece.

Again, this is just my take on this. I hope it helps some with the discussion.

Darunia - Sage of Legend

[jman]

First of all, this will have been my first post in over a year, so forgive my absence. I'm glad to be back.

Secondly, this topic has been debated virtually since OoT was released. To bring one issue in particular up, I'd like to point out an obvious source, the game itself. The issue I'm referring to is the possession of the Triforces being visible on the hands of the bearers.

The only time we know that any of the characters has a triforce within them, the backs of their hands are lit up with the piece they possess. To prove this, Ganon(dorf) has the ToP when he battles Link in OoT. That was apparent at the beginning of the battle, when he showed Link his Triforce mark lit up with power. When he was sealed by the sages, he says he still possesses the ToP. We don't see the back of his hand, but since he possessed it when his hand was lit up, I must logically conclude that it still is. Now, if we follow that same line of logic to the remaining two Triforce bearers, they too must have their respective marks illuminated.

Link, once he returns to his Child Timeline, still has his portion glowing. This can only mean one thing: he still possesses the ToC. There's not any other way to think of it, I don't believe. All of the evidence points to the illumination of the hands as a sign that the fore-ordained bearer is now in possession of their respective piece.

Again, this is just my take on this. I hope it helps some with the discussion.

Darunia - Sage of Legend

Not to be a 'yes man' but Darunia's explanation is how I perceived OOT the first time that I played it through. I noticed the Glowing portion of the triforce on Child Link's hand, but had never really thought about why Zelda didn't have hers. However, a few irregularities do come up which people interpret differently from this ending. Number 1, my first impression from the ending was if Link had the TOC, that meant that Ganon was sealed in the sacred realm at this point. Now this either means that Link was sent back to a time when Ganon was in the sacred realm OR that the seal was the one thing that was kept constant although Link had been sent back in time.
There is, However one alternative reading which I haven't heard people mention which is that I also thought that when Zelda sent Adult Link to regain his lost years, she was simply returning himself along with herself into a child.... I know some people will probably slaughter me for this but it would explain the triforce thing. Actually touching on what I have just said, hypothetically, if Zelda had returned Link and herself into children (not sending Link back in time) then the seal wouldn't be intact so that probably wouldn't work in any case unless it was held by the 6 sages and not her as the 7th. Plus I'm sure ALTTP talks about the backstory as containing the 7 wise men who implemented the seal, so this would include OOT's adult Zelda as the sage of time.

Also, specific to the ending I have heard people argue that Zelda would not have the power to send Link back in time because that would create a whole new universe with a new triforce (and perhaps another set of the 3 goddesses) which could never happen. So I'm not really sure which way to lean, I originally leant to the side that there was only one timeline, then I was more in favour of the split timeline.. Now I'm not so sure. We know that Zelda is the sage of time, but we don't really know the extent of her powers, timewise.
As for why she didn't have the TOW in OOT's ending, maybe the triforce went to someone else instead, I myself can't think of another way to explain that.

If anyone replies to this, can somebody explain to me how the sages put the seal on Ganon at the end of OOT? I mean when Link, Zelda and Ganon are fighting, they aren't in the SR, they're in the future Hyrule right? then the seal is placed on Ganon and he goes into the SR. Did the seal send him into the SR and lock him in there or just lock him in there?
Also Link and Zelda are floating in a sky, is this the road between times? or just plain symbolism?

[CID Farwin]

Firstly, I don't think I read all of the posts here, so there's a chance I missed something.

Secondly, The Double Link theory is something I have never thought of before, and so I now am very much "split"(Heh, Heh, BAD PUN ALERT!) over single or split timeline.

Thirdly, it doesn't matter how you look at it, there's a problem with the canon. If link is transported to before he pulled out the master sword, then there's an extra ToC. If link is transported to after he pulled out the master sword, then there's an Ocarina materalizing out of mystic ether.

Finally, if link IS transported to a time after he pulled out the master sword, then technically Ganon would already be sealed. By the origional seal, no less. As far as I know, the gateway can only be opened by someone pulling out the Master Sword. This actually explains a few things in ALttP, assuming a split timeline of course.

1.The Master Sword in ALttP appears to be in the exact location of the hidden chamber of the Temple of Time.
2.Ganon "Rediscoveres" the gateway to the Sacred Realm. Or maybe he finds another way out?
3.The whole thing with the seven maidens being "Human" or at least Humanoid(Like or near human.)

Feel free to correct me if you see fit, but please actually correct me, and not miss my points.

P.S. Your abscence is officially forgiven great Darunia, Sage of FIRE!

Edited by CID Farwin, 02 November 2006 - 08:24 PM.

[Ogmios22188]

Alright, how are we working out the multiple Ocarinas, though? This is something I just started thinking of again recently, and it's driving me a little nuts. The only way I could think of this occurring would be if Link was sent back to before he even began his quest. This way, Zelda could've given him the Ocarina of Time and upon returning from Termina, he'd give it back, so she could give it to the Link from her timeline. Still, there's time between the ending of Ocarina of Time and the movie in Majora's Mask, since Link has Epona and a different shield. Something must've happened between these two times, but there's really no way of knowing what.

[Jumbie]

Again, this is just my take on this. I hope it helps some with the discussion.

Well it doesn't outright help me, as all you said is just what I'm convinced of, but it's always nice to see others realize the same logic

my first impression from the ending was if Link had the TOC, that meant that Ganon was sealed in the sacred realm at this point. Now this either means that Link was sent back to a time when Ganon was in the sacred realm OR that the seal was the one thing that was kept constant although Link had been sent back in time.

We should establish the club of OoT's-ending-comprehenders!

I also thought that when Zelda sent Adult Link to regain his lost years, she was simply returning himself along with herself into a child....

Haha, sounds much like what happens to Son-Goku in Dragonball GT! (sry, couldn't spare this one.. just accidentally watched a DBGT episode today)
But anyway, how would you explain the existence of Hyrule Castle in the future? And did Zelda also turn Epona back to being a foal, as she is in MM?

I mean when Link, Zelda and Ganon are fighting, they aren't in the SR, they're in the future Hyrule right?

Right.

then the seal is placed on Ganon and he goes into the SR. Did the seal send him into the SR and lock him in there or just lock him in there?

Ganon was lying down in Hyrule, and ended up in the Sacred Realm, so.. I don't know. The initial plan of Zelda was to lure Ganon back into the open door to the Sacred Realm, and then close it from outside.. or was it from inside? Can't remember right now. Anyway, the final events seem to have turned out different, as Zelda was kidnapped, but.. don't ask me

Also Link and Zelda are floating in a sky, is this the road between times? or just plain symbolism?

Plain symbolism... I'd say.

[LionHarted]

Ganon "Rediscoveres" the gateway to the Sacred Realm. Or maybe he finds another way out?

1) Ganon rediscovers the gateway "to the Sacred Realm", i.e., "to" the Realm, from Hyrule;
2) This means that he's rediscovering the way in, not the way out, which means he can't be sealed there

The whole thing with the seven maidens being "Human" or at least Humanoid(Like or near human.)

How does a split timeline explain this at all? *scratches head*

[Darunia]

There is, However one alternative reading which I haven't heard people mention which is that I also thought that when Zelda sent Adult Link to regain his lost years, she was simply returning himself along with herself into a child.... I know some people will probably slaughter me for this but it would explain the triforce thing. Actually touching on what I have just said, hypothetically, if Zelda had returned Link and herself into children (not sending Link back in time) then the seal wouldn't be intact so that probably wouldn't work in any case unless it was held by the 6 sages and not her as the 7th. Plus I'm sure ALTTP talks about the backstory as containing the 7 wise men who implemented the seal, so this would include OOT's adult Zelda as the sage of time.

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, she just sent him back, not both of them. This would explain why, when they meet for the "first time" in the garden, that Zelda seems to not recognize him. Besides, I also thought that she used the Ocarina to send him back, which would mean that she held it in the future timeline. Maybe I'm wrong on that one. I'll have to go back and watch the end clips again.

Also, specific to the ending I have heard people argue that Zelda would not have the power to send Link back in time because that would create a whole new universe with a new triforce (and perhaps another set of the 3 goddesses) which could never happen. So I'm not really sure which way to lean, I originally leant to the side that there was only one timeline, then I was more in favour of the split timeline.. Now I'm not so sure. We know that Zelda is the sage of time, but we don't really know the extent of her powers, timewise.
As for why she didn't have the TOW in OOT's ending, maybe the triforce went to someone else instead, I myself can't think of another way to explain that.

If what I've outlined above is accurate, then she doesn't have the ToW at the end because as a child, she hasn't found it yet. Link possesses his piece because he fought Ganon(dorf), won, and was returned to his missed childhood. True, he was returned to a time before he learned anything of Ganon(dorf), but he still has the ToC in him from his battle in the future.

It's confusing, I know, but it can be seen pretty clearly when you follow the subtle clues ever so carefully. To be totally honest, I like the Single Timeline theory myself, and I'm gonna have to go back and revise my old one with the new information. I need to write all of this up, with all of the new stuff included. With that said, I haven't completely signed off to it yet, as the evidence hasn't quite presented itself clearly enough to make a clearcut determination. I reserve that for a later date.

If anyone replies to this, can somebody explain to me how the sages put the seal on Ganon at the end of OOT? I mean when Link, Zelda and Ganon are fighting, they aren't in the SR, they're in the future Hyrule right? then the seal is placed on Ganon and he goes into the SR. Did the seal send him into the SR and lock him in there or just lock him in there?
Also Link and Zelda are floating in a sky, is this the road between times? or just plain symbolism?

Actually, I always percieved the "future" to be more of the Sacred Realm than the true future. Consider for a minute the location of the Triforce before the Door of Time was opened. As far as we know, it's safely resting in the SR, untouched by any forces. However, as soon as Link opens the door to unlock the Master Sword, Ganondorf runs in and acquires the ToP. How else could this have happened, unless the "future" is actually the SR, which was tainted by Ganon(dorf)'s own malcontent?

Actually, this idea would explain a lot of the inconsistencies with the storylines that I've seen so far, since the SR and the "future" have never been separated. Maybe I'm onto something... Maybe not. I just dunno for sure. If anyone thinks of something, pitch a reply.

Darunia - Sage of Legend (and Fire )

[jman]

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, she just sent him back, not both of them. This would explain why, when they meet for the "first time" in the garden, that Zelda seems to not recognize him. Besides, I also thought that she used the Ocarina to send him back, which would mean that she held it in the future timeline. Maybe I'm wrong on that one.

Yeh on closer inspection, thats seems right. I think she just sent him back, but to me it still seems weird that she creates a new timeline, or has the power to do that. If she isn't creating a new timeline and sending Link back to before he pulled out the MS for the very first time, then that means in the child timeline OOT wasn't the imprisoning war... Both these scenarios do seem a bit iffy, unless there is another SW which follows. I always thought that OOT was the SW, whether Zelda split into two timelines or stayed as one, but now I'm unsure.

If what I've outlined above is accurate, then she doesn't have the ToW at the end because as a child, she hasn't found it yet. Link possesses his piece because he fought Ganon(dorf), won, and was returned to his missed childhood. True, he was returned to a time before he learned anything of Ganon(dorf), but he still has the ToC in him from his battle in the future.

That is a pretty good explanation for why she doesn't have the mark. Link had it because he beat Ganon etc. and the fact that he was sent back in time doesn't reverse this. Also I do have a feeling that when OOT was made, the ending was made to be ambiguous i.e. a 'split' or 'no split' scenario which would be up to the player.

It's confusing, I know, but it can be seen pretty clearly when you follow the subtle clues ever so carefully. To be totally honest, I like the Single Timeline theory myself

As did I. Looking at the series as a whole, it seems weird if there actually is a split, yet there are inconsistencies both ways aswell.

Actually, I always percieved the "future" to be more of the Sacred Realm than the true future. Consider for a minute the location of the Triforce before the Door of Time was opened. As far as we know, it's safely resting in the SR, untouched by any forces. However, as soon as Link opens the door to unlock the Master Sword, Ganondorf runs in and acquires the ToP. How else could this have happened, unless the "future" is actually the SR, which was tainted by Ganon(dorf)'s own malcontent?

You do have a point, and this would explain why when Link pulls up the Master sword he goes straight into the future. I always found distinguishing from the future and the SR to be a bit hard, plus people have theories like yourself where the SR became some dark, twisted version of Hyrule in OOT when Ganon touched the TOP. Although Ganon could have very easily acquired the TOP and gone back into Hyrule to take over it, which makes sense cos in the future Ganon's temple replaces Hyrule castle. We also know that in ALTTP Ganon wanted to rule both LW and DW/SR, and wasn't satisfied with the DW/SR alone. Plus in OOT he did vow vengeance by destroying Zelda and Link's ancestors.

[LionHarted]

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, she just sent him back, not both of them. This would explain why, when they meet for the "first time" in the garden, that Zelda seems to not recognize him.

Not necessarily. She just seems surprised to see him.

True, he was returned to a time before he learned anything of Ganon(dorf), but he still has the ToC in him from his battle in the future.

Hmm. Impossible. He can't appear in the Temple of Time at any point before the Door of Time is open, because then he can't leave.

Actually, I always percieved the "future" to be more of the Sacred Realm than the true future. Consider for a minute the location of the Triforce before the Door of Time was opened. As far as we know, it's safely resting in the SR, untouched by any forces. However, as soon as Link opens the door to unlock the Master Sword, Ganondorf runs in and acquires the ToP. How else could this have happened, unless the "future" is actually the SR, which was tainted by Ganon(dorf)'s own malcontent?

Ganondorf's magic tainted the Sacred Realm the moment he entered it. He has been slowly spreading that power to Hyrule over seven long/short (depending on who you ask ) years. His mission, his quest to find the other two Triforce parts, is so he can gain "complete mastery of the world" (i.e., of Hyrule). Also, the characters make several mentions of the Sacred Realm and Hyrule as separate entities.

Ganondorf, the Gerudo King of Thieves, used it to enter this forbidden Sacred Realm!
He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil...
His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule, and in seven short years, it transformed Hyrule into a world of monsters.

The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm.
I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.
Thus, Ganondorf the Evil King will vanish from Hyrule.

[Raien]

To Jumbie, I re-read this topic just recently and I want to ask a couple of questions.

1) If Link's soul travels to another timeline, then how can the Hero of Winds be the Hero of Time reborn again? I have no idea where you're getting this "disintegrating energy" or "Link's soul splitting to both timelines" speculation from. Travelling =/= Copying

2) If Link and Zelda standing in the sky is plain symbolism, then why can't Link and Zelda's meeting in the past also be symbolic? We don't have to erase the whole event to take it as symbolism but it is obvious that the purpose of that meeting had an emotional message to put forward than it being something essentially important to the story. Link's quest was already over after all.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 November 2006 - 05:22 PM.

[Ogmios22188]

Well, maybe Link told Zelda about the future, and in doing so, would've created a split in the timeline, since Zelda never meet Link before.

[Paviel]

Well, maybe Link told Zelda about the future, and in doing so, would've created a split in the timeline, since Zelda never meet Link before.

Zelda had met Link before. They met for the first time before Link opened the Door of Time, and Adult Zelda sent Link back to after he had opened the Door of Time, and thus after they had already met for the first time.

Edited by Paviel, 03 November 2006 - 08:47 PM.

[Ogmios22188]

Zelda had met Link before. They met for the first time before Link opened the Door of Time, and Adult Zelda sent Link back to after he had opened the Door of Time, and thus after they had already met for the first time.

Why would Zelda go back to the castle after the Door of Time was opened? It looked like Impa ran away with Zelda and never came back. He had to have been sent back to before they met, since Zelda has that shocked look on her face, like when they meet the first time.

[Showsni]

Why would Zelda go back to the castle after the Door of Time was opened?

Because they left in such a hurry they couldn't pack her stuff. Why shouldn't she go back to the castle? Ganon's gone, the gerudos have left, and it's the safest place, what with all the soldiers.

[Ogmios22188]

Because they left in such a hurry they couldn't pack her stuff. Why shouldn't she go back to the castle? Ganon's gone, the gerudos have left, and it's the safest place, what with all the soldiers.

Do Zelda and Impa know that Ganon and the Gerudos have left? Don't think so, and probably by the time they'd have gotten back, Ganon would've already exited the Sacred Realm with the Triforce of Power in hand, wreaking havoc and conquering the Castle. I find her coming back to the Castle very unlikely.

[Paviel]

And it's far less likely that Link could have been sent back to before he opened the Door of Time, given that we can clearly see it open behind him, and given that he has had the Kokiri Emerald since day one.

In any case, Zelda could have had a vision that Ganon was gone, and that it would be safe to return to Hyrule Castle.

Edited by Paviel, 03 November 2006 - 11:44 PM.

[Darunia]

Not necessarily. She just seems surprised to see him.

I can buy that I suppose. It was just a feeling on that anyway.

Hmm. Impossible. He can't appear in the Temple of Time at any point before the Door of Time is open, because then he can't leave.

What do you mean impossible? The whole reason for his being returned to his childhood is so that he could live it out in peace, not having to worry about any of the evils that happened. Effectively, sending him back allowed the creators to come back later and retell the story with more depth and detail. Why else would Zelda have sent him back to the point that she did? If we remember right, he was sent back to before he found anything out about Ganondorf and his evil schemings. In his new life, however, he's blissfully unaware that Ganondorf is no where to be found, and Zelda is merely spying on her dad the King of Hyrule as she always does.

I see nothing in either what I've stated, nor in any canonical sources that shows this to be anything but the truth. True, some things are left up to interpretation, but there are a few that are meant to be very obvious. When Link was returned to his childhood is one of those sublte clues as to what it's all about. Then again, it's not even really all that subtle when Zelda tells Link why he's being sent back. Who knows? Maybe I'm the only one that sees it this way. Please, if you or anyone sees anything wrong with this, do correct me.

Ganondorf's magic tainted the Sacred Realm the moment he entered it. He has been slowly spreading that power to Hyrule over seven long/short (depending on who you ask ) years. His mission, his quest to find the other two Triforce parts, is so he can gain "complete mastery of the world" (i.e., of Hyrule). Also, the characters make several mentions of the Sacred Realm and Hyrule as separate entities.

So, what you're effectively saying is that there isn't a split timeline, right? If the "future" is nothing more than the SR, then the split is not possible nor is it necessary, since they are merely different dimensions. It wouldn't be a split timeline because that timeline was closed off when Link was sent back by Zelda at the end. Everything from the point of Link entering the SR till his return is nullified, all except for the fact that Ganon(dorf) is missing in the child timeline. This is easily explained by his being trapped in the SR by the 7 sages, Adult Zelda included.

Again, these are just my thoughts on this. I still defend the single timeline theory vigorously, sicne to me, it seems the most complete. I look forward to any and all thoughts on this.

Darunia - Sage of Legend

Zelda had met Link before. They met for the first time before Link opened the Door of Time, and Adult Zelda sent Link back to after he had opened the Door of Time, and thus after they had already met for the first time.

And yet at the very end of the game, you see them meet again, just as they did in the beginning. Did this event even happen? Or was it merely put in there for dramatic effect?

Darunia - Sage of Legend

Edited by Darunia, 04 November 2006 - 03:36 AM.

[Mad Scrub]

If the "future" is nothing more than the SR then you're saying that TWW is nothing more than the SR too because it's set after the future events of OoT. This is proven by the TWW's backstory and the stained glass windows in Hyrule Castle. I think the idea of OoT's future being the SR is absurd.

[Arturo]

Because they left in such a hurry they couldn't pack her stuff. Why shouldn't she go back to the castle? Ganon's gone, the gerudos have left, and it's the safest place, what with all the soldiers.

Impa clearly implies in the Chamber of Sages taht they never came back to the Castle. Why should they then in the Child Timeline? With the same circumstances they should do the same. But they don't do the same because the circumstances atre not the same. Ganon has been sealed.

[Darunia]

If the "future" is nothing more than the SR then you're saying that TWW is nothing more than the SR too because it's set after the future events of OoT. This is proven by the TWW's backstory and the stained glass windows in Hyrule Castle. I think the idea of OoT's future being the SR is absurd.

Actually, I'm saying that TWW is the extension from OoT/MM/TP, but you're not reading all of the backstory. As quoted from The Wind Waker manual:

Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden. One day, a man of great evil found this power and took it for himself, and with it at his command, he spread darkness across the kingdom. But then...just as all hope had died, a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere. Wielding a blade that repelled evil, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This boy, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time. The boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend.

If you'll notice, it says the boy's tale was passed down. That's a very significant piece of information, since it tells us that Link told his side of the story to everyone after he was sent back. He was a boy, not an adult. The only way this could have happened is if he WAS sent back to the Child Timeline after defeating Ganon. The people just chose to believe this tale that he told, and it became legend from there. Maybe he used his possession of the ToC as evidence of said tale, who knows. All that is clear is that Link told his side of the story, and that, in effect, is the backstory of TWW.

As if to further emphasize my point, the next paragraph in the manual adds more proof to this:

And then a day came when a fell wind began to blow across the kingdom, and the great evil once again crept forth from the depths of the earth. The people believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them. But the hero did not appear...

Why else would this Hero of Time not appear? Simply because he wasn't old enough yet. The OoT Link must have died just before this Link was born, since this Link is about 9 when this "tale" begins.

I hope this sheds some light on the situation, as it does get confusing sometimes. If you have anymore issues with this, don't hesitate to post em.

Darunia - Sage of Legend

P.S.

As a matter of fact, when Link takes the Master Sword for the first time, and Ganondorf enters, he thanks Link for leading him "to the gates of the Sacred Realm". That can mean only one thing; that the future IS indeed the SR. As proof, watch the cutscene again, where it's shown in black and white.

Edited by Darunia, 04 November 2006 - 06:02 AM.

[Arturo]

P.S.
As a matter of fact, when Link takes the Master Sword for the first time, and Ganondorf enters, he thanks Link for leading him "to the gates of the Sacred Realm". That can mean only one thing; that the future IS indeed the SR. As proof, watch the cutscene again, where it's shown in black and white.

That is a misinterprataion. What he says is that he has led him to the entrance to the Sacred Realm, where he obtained the Triforce. Afte that, he came back to Hyrule. Note that in the whole Adult half they speak of the Sacred Realm as a separate dimenssion:

Rauru:

He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil...
His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule, and in seven short years, it transformed Hyrule into a world of monsters.
My power now has only little influence, even in this Sacred Realm...

Sheik:

When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages, who dwell in the five temples.

Impa:

That is when we, the six Wise Ones, will seal up the Evil King and return peace to Hyrule.

Zelda:

The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm.
I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.
Thus, Ganondorf the Evil King will vanish from Hyrule.

Rauru:

Ancient Creators of Hyrule!
Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!

And so on...

Edited by Arturo, 04 November 2006 - 06:32 AM.

[Darunia]

Was the Triforce not stored in the SR when Ganondorf acquired it? I may have missed something, but all of my canon says that it was stored there until Link opened the Door of Time, and Ganondorf grabbed the ToP.

If you could help me with this, I'd be ever grateful.

Darunia - Sage of Legend

Edited for clarity.

Edited by Darunia, 04 November 2006 - 07:06 AM.