156 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

That doesn't answer the question of where this spare Triforce of Courage came from. Ganon has the Triforce of Power in the adult timeline, Zelda has Wisdom, and in order for the events in TWW to make sense Courage must have exploded into 8 parts throughout Hyrule because you can't take the Triforce out of its original timeline. Yet in the child timeline Link clearly has the ToC, Zelda is shocked, and stranger still Ganondorf was sealed away with the full Triforce before his evil reign could even start.

Let's see. TWW is in the Adult Timeline. So when Link leaves Child Hyrule, he's separated from the elements that make him a hero, and is split (maybe by Zelda) into eight pieces. In the Child Timeline, Link has the ToC, because he had it in the Adult one, and Ganondorf has touched the Triforce. When he leaves Hyrule, he is "separated from the elemnts that make him a hero" and the ToC goes to Ganon, because it tends to combine.

And Lionharted, can you not understand that you cannot analyze the texts literally? It's translated from Japanese, you know, a really different language. And their concept of reincarnation (and MPS can elaborate much more than me on this) is much different to ours.

[Keen]

So when Link leaves Child Hyrule, he's separated from the elements that make him a hero, and is split (maybe by Zelda) into eight pieces.

Ouchies. Poor Link. I'm kidding, of course.

Edited by Lord Toran, 19 October 2006 - 08:33 AM.

[LionHarted]

[delete/ignore this post -- it added nothing to discussion, so I removed its content]

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 11:05 AM.

[Jumbie]

That doesn't answer the question of where this spare Triforce of Courage came from.

Oh, so you have missed how I actually did answer your question, some lines above what you just quoted of me? Instead of scrolling down to the part of my post where I commented on your question, you should have also read what I commented on jhurvid:

There is one ToC in each timeline, logically. Adult Link left his ToC in the future when he travelled back, while Young Link received the ToC of the past as soon as he re-emerged in the Child timeline.

There's nothing more to explain here. The three Triforce pieces exist once in each timeline, basta.

And why can't the Triforce exist outside of Hyrule? Its appearance in Oracle series ending seems to disprove that theory.

You're making a grave mistake here (the same one as Lord Toran, btw). What do you think is the reason I referred to Hyrule and Termina as two separate dimensions, instead of separate countries?!
- If you take the Triforce from Hyrule to Labrynna, which both exist in the same dimension, everything is fine.
- If you take the Triforce from Hyrule to Termina however, which are two parallel worlds, the Triforce is lost from Hyrule's dimension forever (well, Link might bring it back to Hyrule of course, but the natural laws cannot possibly rely on Link bringing it back, if you know what I mean).

That makes absolutely no sense. Time Travel even in theory doesn't work like that at all, and Science has no mention of the 'soul' either.

It was just a crappy attempt of me to explain it, whereas nobody else ever bothered to explain it.

Ouchies. Poor Link. I'm kidding, of course.

Lol

[Arturo]

I dopn't think the Triforce can be brought to Labrynna or Holodrum, because it's tied only to Hyrule. In the Oracles we see it in a castle, that is, almost certainly, Hyrule Caste.

[Hero of Slime]

The triforce can be taken into the Dark World, it is not entirely bound to the world Hyrule. There might be somthing about the world of Termina that keeps the triforce out of that world alone.

Since Holodrum and Labrynna are part of the same plane as Hyrule I see no reason one could not take the triforce to those places.

[Hero of Legend]

Before time began, before spirits and life existed... Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule...

...

The three great goddesses, their labors completed, departed for the heavens. And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world.

Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence. And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm.

The Triforce is "the basis of our world's providence." "Our word" being the World of Hyrule that the Goddesses created. The Sacred Realm/Dark World is a part of this world (indeed, it was created by the Triforce itself!)

In other words, the Triforce can exist everywhere in the World of Hyrule (The Kingdom of Hyrule, Labrynna, Holdorum, etc) but not in other worlds like Termina, because those worlds were not created by the Goddesses.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 October 2006 - 04:13 PM.

[LionHarted]

In other words, the Triforce can exist everywhere in the World of Hyrule (The Kingdom of Hyrule, Labrynna, Holdorum, etc) but not in other worlds like Termina, because those worlds were not created by the Goddesses.

We see Triforce effigies in Termina, as well. I don't have any images, but look at the obelisks on the road leading from Clock Town to Ikana, and you'll see that, on each corner, the Triforce is etched into the stone.

The three Triforce pieces exist once in each timeline, basta.

So Zelda, a human being, can use her time-splitting powers to literally create not only an entirely new reality, but an entirely new Triforce? Does she duplicate the gods and goddesses as well, because, if so, I think we have a major paradox going, here.

How can one have the power to literally "create" a deity?

[Hero of Legend]

We see Triforce effigies in Termina, as well. I don't have any images, but look at the obelisks on the road leading from Clock Town to Ikana, and you'll see that, on each corner, the Triforce is etched into the stone.

That is true. However, the presence of an image does not equal the presence of the Triforce itself. We know for a fact that people can travel between the two dimensions. It is possible that a Hylian who came to Termina simply told the Terminians (or rather, Ikanians, or possibly the ones who built the Stone Tower) about the Triforce, and they engraved it on their obelisks, presumably without knowing its true nature (Like the people on Outset).

[LionHarted]

How do we know that the goddesses didn't create Termina?

[Jumbie]

So Zelda, a human being, can use her time-splitting powers to literally create not only an entirely new reality, but an entirely new Triforce? Does she duplicate the gods and goddesses as well, because, if so, I think we have a major paradox going, here.
How can one have the power to literally "create" a deity?

Such a load of rubbish! The Goddesses stand above everything else - above the Adult timeline, Child timeline and possibly also the Termina dimension. This is the very reason why their seal transcends the two Hyrulean timelines, together with the Goddesses themselves.
Anyway, who said Zelda was responsible for the timeline split in the first place? The reason why the timeline had to eventually split was Link's unnatural, seven-year long stasis between past and future. He was robbed of seven precious years of his life by destiny, the sole reason for the timeline split. This is why the past was saved for him to travel to, as well as the future. So the timeline has been split ever since Link awoke in the future for the first time. What Zelda did by sending Link back to the past in the ending was only to "close the road between times", as she correctly says.

[LionHarted]

So the timeline has been split ever since Link awoke in the future for the first time. What Zelda did by sending Link back to the past in the ending was only to "close the road between times", as she correctly says.

Why split the timeline when you can just split Link, without having to explain why a whole new Triforce comes about?

[Jumbie]

Why split the timeline when you can just split Link, without having to explain why a whole new Triforce comes about?

Link is the Hero of Time. It wouldn't be very appropriate to split him in two.

[LionHarted]

Link is the Hero of Time. It wouldn't be very appropriate to split him in two.

That's what you wind up doing anyway, isn't it?

[spunky-monkey]

Let's see. TWW is in the Adult Timeline. So when Link leaves Child Hyrule, he's separated from the elements that make him a hero, and is split (maybe by Zelda) into eight pieces. In the Child Timeline, Link has the ToC, because he had it in the Adult one, and Ganondorf has touched the Triforce. When he leaves Hyrule, he is "separated from the elemnts that make him a hero" and the ToC goes to Ganon, because it tends to combine.

Being 'separated from the elements that made him a hero' doesn't necessarily mean getting separated from his Triforce part as it merely explains that, apart from Epona, everyone he ever knew or loved he left behind in Hyrule. Only the Royal Family recognised his deeds and battles across time, though to common folk in the child timeline they were nothing more than 'fairy tales'.

There's nothing more to explain here. The three Triforce pieces exist once in each timeline, basta.

Ah it now makes sense, if time was correcting itself to adapt to this new timline's presence, except why hasn't Zelda got the Triforce of Wisdom in the OoT ending as well?

You're making a grave mistake here (the same one as Lord Toran, btw). What do you think is the reason I referred to Hyrule and Termina as two separate dimensions, instead of separate countries?!

DAMN IT. >_<

[LionHarted]

So him going to Termina in the Child timeline causes the Triforce to split in the Adult timeline? (the one he took out of the Adult line with him, no less)

What? I'm severely confused.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 06:10 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It seems my name was mentioned when this....rubbish about Link's soul was brought up.

Jumbie, you seem to be using the "Shinentai" trend to argue that Link's soul can exist in both timelines, something about his body disintegrating and yadda yadda.

It doesn't disintegrate. It becomes interdimensionally misplaced. If his soul WAS split, then both Links would be emotionless zombies or something. "Shinentai" only comes into effect when the original body is alive, but unusable. Link's body is fine no longer how you look at it. The timeline is split, Link goes back to the Child timeline and reincarnates throughout that timeline.

In the Adult timeline, which is identical to the Child timeline up to the lifting of the Master Sword, The Adult Timeline Link's soul would have "dissapeared" at the point that the Child Link's soul entered the timeline and did his thing.

Perhaps when Zelda sent back Link's soul, the Adult Link body wasn't disintegrated, but returned to the soul of the Link that properly lives in that body.

Either way, Link's soul does not split, or he would have some severe mental and emotional issues.

"Link! Kill that Moblin and save the Princess!" "Muuurrr!" *taps his fingers against his palm like a retard.*

[LionHarted]

Technically the souls are the same, are they not? The soul is just being "sealed with in the Sacred Realm" (along with the body, the first time and apparently the last), and sent through time to inhabit the body (or bodies). Somehow this faculty of time travel contributes to his inventory--how, we cannot quite be sure.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 07:29 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well yea, it is, but if you have two timelines, everything is doubled over. I would assume the same applies to Link's soul. No reason to split it.

[Keen]

Isn't there a hypothesis that Termina is meant to represent a land of the dead? That would explain the Triforce images appearing there, as well as everyone's inability to take the Triforce there.

[LionHarted]

Well yea, it is, but if you have two timelines, everything is doubled over. I would assume the same applies to Link's soul. No reason to split it.

Fine. "Doubled over". Doesn't matter what wording you use--a split timeline is essentially a more drastic version of the double-Link theory that extends to the timeline outside of OoT.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 11:46 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Jhurvid) Now, in the Child Timeline, the Triforce was never taken by Ganondorf, so according to the split timeline theory, there are now two pieces of the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline and no pieces in the Adult Timeline. But since we know TWW takes place in the Adult Timeline, this situation is impossible. Therefore, we know that a Single Timeline must occur.

The split timeline must of changed since I was last on here. I never knew that any version of the split stated that there are two ToC pieces in the Child Timeline. Also, why the heck would Link retain the future ToC? If two ToC exists in the Child timeline, then there will be two pieces of Courage in every Zelda game thereafter—existing at the same time in the same dimension. Whoever made that version of the split—must have been seriously smoking something. (Please share some of that—puff…puff…give, cuz I’d like to get screwed up like that.) Or did you misinterpret the split theory?

(Ricky) This spare ToC is clearly not a birthmark because it is shining on Link's hand, but what's odd is that Triforce part isn't seen in Majora's Mask. Did it go 'dormant' again like in OoT?

You’re right the mark isn’t shown on Link in MM. Now, don’t anyone say, ‘Link was separated from the elements. That’s why we don’t see the mark on Link while he’s in Termina.’ Before any of you say that—MM didn’t start in Termina—the game started off in Hyrule! During the brief time Link is shown in Hyrule—he displays no mark.

Yeah…yeah…’The mark usually displays only when the holder is close to someone else with a Triforce piece...’ Uhmmm sounds good, but—NO. If Link were sent back to a point after Ganon seized the Triforce, then everyone should end up getting there respective pieces. If that’s so, then Zelda’s mark should have been glowing right along with Link’s in the courtyard. However that is not the case—we only see Link’s mark.

Has anyone seen clips of Twilight Princess, and also the promo art for TP? Well Link isn’t standing next to anyone with a Triforce piece in the scenes that we’ve seen, but the mark is there (the scenes of him in Touro Village, when he’s dressed in village clothing). Also we see that mark in AoL, and no one else is around him with a Triforce part—heck AoL Link doesn’t have any Triforce part to himself at that point of the story at least. Trust me it’s the same mark—the artist of that time depicted the whole mark as being evenly shiny.

It’s safe to assume that all the marks shown in the Zelda series are pretty much intended to be the same. It would be stupid and confusing—for a video game story at that—to say that at point in time a mark appeared only if you had the Triforce piece, then later it not only appears when you have it…but the mark also appears before you’ve gained a Triforce when you’re destined for it and have proven yourself—due to a King’s spell. How about the King’s spell was caste long before we ever saw any Triforce mark on any Link.

Why did I go into all this? To show that Link does not have to be in possession of a Triforce part to have the mark.


(Ricky) Of course it was taken by Ganondorf! Link returned to the Child timeline with Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm, so Ganondorf has got his ToP and Link his ToC.

Assuming that this happens, then why doesn’t Zelda have her mark, when she and Link are in the courtyard?

(Jumbie) Link is the Hero of Time. It wouldn't be very appropriate to split him in two.

(Lionhearted) That's what you wind up doing anyway, isn't it?

Guys, what makes you think Zelda knew whether or not the alternate future would continue or be erased, once she sent Link back in time? Also, she doesn’t have the power to duplicate or create dimensions…uhmmm wouldn’t that make her a god if she could? At the end of OOT, the only thing she did on purpose was send Link back in time. It’s the very act of time travel, and Link doing things differently in the past that causes the split. When Link returns to the past the Triforce of Courage is not duplicated.

Keep in mind when Link travels through time, it is through his essence or soul—not body. In a way it’s not really time travel per say—it’s time progressing and regressing as is. If you sleep for so long, then wake up of course time will seem as if it sped up. Whenever Link goes back in time, he basically lies back down inside the Sacred Realm, then time itself travels backwards and Link’s body regresses back into a child state and vice versa. If in the past, I were given a medallion while asleep, then I awaken seven years in the future, in a body that has aged seven years--wearing with that same medallion—isn’t that the same medallion that was given to me in the past? So if I lay back down with that same medallion, and time went backwards, then I awakened seven years younger in the past, I won’t have two medallions or duplicates-I’d have the same one that was given to me from the start.

When he awakens in the past, he has all the memories of the alternate future. The body regresses, but not the soul and mind, which is why Link knows of places to go in the past to help himself out in the future-which is also why Link may do things differently after Zelda sends him back to his original time for the final time. As for the alternate future, it could possibly continue to exist, thus it splits. Both timelines share the same past, but they ‘split’ when events begin to differ.

[LionHarted]

The split timeline must of changed since I was last on here. I never knew that any version of the split stated that there are two ToC pieces in the Child Timeline. Also, why the heck would Link retain the future ToC?

When you arrive in the past, in the ending scene with Zelda, Link's ToC appears on his hand, but Zelda's does not. In any "Child timeline", this is impossible. Either Ganondorf never claims the Triforce, so Link should have no mark on his hand, or Zelda, too, should have her Triforce. Clearly the idea was that Link brought back his Triforce from the future with him to the past--which leaves us with two Triforces of Courage in the past, and none in the future.

You’re right the mark isn’t shown on Link in MM. Now, don’t anyone say, ‘Link was separated from the elements. That’s why we don’t see the mark on Link while he’s in Termina.’ Before any of you say that—MM didn’t start in Termina—the game started off in Hyrule! During the brief time Link is shown in Hyrule—he displays no mark.

You seem to forget something. The mark has never been displayed in just any case. Were that the case, we would see it in the Temple of Time scene at the end, and not just the Zelda courtyard scene.

To show that Link does not have to be in possession of a Triforce part to have the mark.

What about a mark upon which only one triangle is glowing? The mark in AoL has no such description--it's a "birthmark".

Link returned to the Child timeline with Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm, so Ganondorf has got his ToP and Link his ToC.

But Zelda doesn't have her ToW? That's odd. Would you mind explaining that one for the presses?

It’s the very act of time travel, and Link doing things differently in the past that causes the split.

So why don't we see a split every time he goes back in time? Certainly Link is "doing things differently" from the events he fulfilled before his previous trip into the future, isn't he? Shouldn't that create an alternate future?

Keep in mind when Link travels through time, it is through his essence or soul—not body. In a way it’s not really time travel per say—it’s time progressing and regressing as is. If you sleep for so long, then wake up of course time will seem as if it sped up. Whenever Link goes back in time, he basically lies back down inside the Sacred Realm, then time itself travels backwards and Link’s body regresses back into a child state and vice versa.

While I like the "body takes the first trip, soul travels through it" idea, here you run into a pretty major problem.

1: Link pulls the Master Sword from the Pedestal of Time. The Pedestal of Time is empty.
2: Link falls asleep for seven years, and wakes up in the future.
3: Link does his business in the future and replaces the Master Sword to return to the Past.

Okay, so here's the chronology so far. Obviously in order for Step 2 to happen, Step 1 must happen, and for Step 3 to happen, Step 2 must happen. But wait!--we're back in the past at Step 1. Let's continue again.

1: Link is in the Temple of Time, his hands on the Master Sword.
2: Link goes off and does his business in the past.

Hold on a second! Isn't it a necessary consequence of the original Step 1 that he be asleep in the Sacred Realm right now? So how can he be doing whatever it is he's doing in the past? Doesn't that remove the original Step 2, therefore making Step 3 impossible? Clearly we have a paradox here; Link is supposed to be sleeping in the Sacred Realm right now in order for his deeds in the future to eventually come to pass. But wait--we'll use the splitists' logic to create an alternate future!

Except that doesn't work. All the events of OoT take place on one, single timeline. Link logically needs to be in the Sacred Realm, sleeping away so that he can wake up to do his future deeds, and he also logically needs to be off gallavanting in the past, doing whatever the heck he needs to do. So how do we fix this? It's quite simple--we just have Link literally in two places at once.

1a: Link pulls the Master Sword from the Pedestal of Time. The Pedestal of Time is empty.
1b: Link is in the Temple of Time, his hands on the Master Sword.
2a: Link falls asleep for seven years, and wakes up in the future.
2b: Link goes off and does his business in the past.
(a=first trip to the future, b=first trip to the past)
Two Ocarinas--one in Child Link's hands, one in the sleeping Link's hands--two Master Swords--one always in the Pedestal in the past, one always in the sleeping Link's possession--two of pretty much everything Link ever carries. Until, of course, Adult Link vanishes into the ether, and returns to the past to become MM Link.

As for the alternate future, it could possibly continue to exist, thus it splits.

No; it can't possibly continue to exist, as, like you said, he does things differently. The only way it could "possibly exist" is if he went back in time again and made it happen, which he doesn't and won't do, so it's not possible.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 October 2006 - 08:23 AM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

When you arrive in the past, in the ending scene with Zelda, Link's ToC appears on his hand, but Zelda's does not. In any "Child timeline", this is impossible. Either Ganondorf never claims the Triforce, so Link should have no mark on his hand, or Zelda, too, should have her Triforce. Clearly the idea was that Link brought back his Triforce from the future with him to the past--which leaves us with two Triforces of Courage in the past, and none in the future.

I don't think that's clearly the idea, I've never known anyone until now to assume that. Like I said before, if there's two ToC at the of OOT, then that means that there are two ToC in every game thereafter existing somewhere in Hyrule. Anyway, we don't know the status of Ganon in the past, and we don't know if Link is sent back to a point before Ganon touched the Triforce or after he touched the Triforce. I think that Link was sent back to a point prior to Ganon touching the Triforce, which is why Ganon is still a threat with only foiled plans and why Zelda doesn't have her mark in the courtyard scene. Also, Link is sent back to the past for the final time via Zelda and the Ocarina. She clearly stated that as a 'sage', in conjunction with the Ocarina, she could send Link back to his 'original time'--which she did. After she states this, the next time we see Link is as a child in front of the Master Sword.

You seem to forget something. The mark has never been displayed in just any case. Were that the case, we would see it in the Temple of Time scene at the end, and not just the Zelda courtyard scene.
What about a mark upon which only one triangle is glowing? The mark in AoL has no such description--it's a "birthmark".

But Zelda doesn't have her ToW? That's odd. Would you mind explaining that one for the presses?

Wow, you stated that as if that's a confusing question or as if you got me. Listen, hot shot, I've addressed this several times before. We don't know the status of Ganon in the past, and we don't know if Link is sent back to a point before Ganon touched the Triforce or after he touched the Triforce. I think that Link was sent back to a point prior to Ganon touching the Triforce, which is why Ganon is still a threat with only foiled plans and why Zelda doesn't have her mark in the courtyard scene.

You know I totally forgot that in another post a long time ago, I concluded that the marks are too inconsistent to really draw any kind of argument about. Look at TP, we see the mark on Link, but we don't see anyone around him who has a Triforce piece, but lo and behold he's got the mark displayed. Also, TP is after OOT mind you, so what's up with that?

Also, in TWW, after Ganon TAKES the Triforce pieces from Link and Zelda, and after the King makes a wish on the united Triforce--in certain cut scenes of that final battle we still can see the marks, but in other scenes of that same battle we don't see the marks. Onc again, in case you didn't get it, in certain scenes the marks resonated even though the respective characters no longer had the pieces. It just yet another inconsitancy with the marks. You can't draw conclusions from the marks, and that includes the mark on Link at the end of OOT. To point it out is baseless, since the mark shows up at all sorts of times, including times that we thought the markings shouldn't.

[spunky-monkey]

Has anyone seen clips of Twilight Princess, and also the promo art for TP? Well Link isn’t standing next to anyone with a Triforce piece in the scenes that we’ve seen, but the mark is there (the scenes of him in Touro Village, when he’s dressed in village clothing). Also we see that mark in AoL, and no one else is around him with a Triforce part—heck AoL Link doesn’t have any Triforce part to himself at that point of the story at least. Trust me it’s the same mark—the artist of that time depicted the whole mark as being evenly shiny.

There's a BIG difference between a birthmark that's shaped like the Triforce and an actual triangle of the golden power embedded in your hand. Link returns to the past with the clearly visible Triforce of Courage that should have been left in the future (causes a plothole in TWW). However, this scene in OoT ending was deliberately included by the game designers themselves because the camera focuses on Link's hand to show he still has Courage in an alternate timeline of Hyrule.

(Ricky) Of course it was taken by Ganondorf! Link returned to the Child timeline with Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm, so Ganondorf has got his ToP and Link his ToC.

How did he manage to do that when he's trapped in the sacred realm as Link has already closed the Door of Time and put the Master Sword back?

When Link returns to the past the Triforce of Courage is not duplicated.

What have we just been talking about? The full Triforce is already in the past, and it exists in the future Hyrule as 3 seperate parts. Link always makes these time travel trips back to the moment after Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm meaning the Triforce is still in there, yet despite this, Link comes back with the Triforce of Courage anyway. This means that unless a filler explains how ToC returns to its original time then the events in TWW should not have happened - it would have been impossible for Ganon to complete the Triforce since the Hero of Time left with a part of it.

1: Link pulls the Master Sword from the Pedestal of Time. The Pedestal of Time is empty.
2: Link falls asleep for seven years, and wakes up in the future.
3: Link does his business in the future and replaces the Master Sword to return to the Past.
Okay, so here's the chronology so far. Obviously in order for Step 2 to happen, Step 1 must happen, and for Step 3 to happen, Step 2 must happen. But wait!--we're back in the past at Step 1. Let's continue again.

Except you're forgetting that time paradoxes are possible in the Zelda Universe because it's fictional. Link has made various bizarre changes to the original chronology involving the Pedestal of Time like getting the Lens of Truth and the Song of Storms. The chronology was being rewritten as Link continued to make changes to the child timeline.

Hold on a second! Isn't it a necessary consequence of the original Step 1 that he be asleep in the Sacred Realm right now? So how can he be doing whatever it is he's doing in the past? Doesn't that remove the original Step 2, therefore making Step 3 impossible? Clearly we have a paradox here; Link is supposed to be sleeping in the Sacred Realm right now in order for his deeds in the future to eventually come to pass. But wait--we'll use the splitists' logic to create an alternate future!

The splitists' logic?

Fyxe and I have already talked about this before, a time paradox is not considered a cataclysmic event in the Zelda universe because given substantial change, time corrects itself to form a new working timeline. Majora's Mask is crawling with multiple timelines that all resulted in the destruction of Termina UNTIL Link finally stopped Majora's Wrath causing time to correct itself for the Dawn of a New Day. Seriously, this shit has been in science-fiction for years.

[Arturo]

I mam quite sure that Ganonodrf has already touched the Triforce when he was sealed. That Link has the ToC is a proof for it.

I also don't think there were ever lines conducting to destruction in MM. There are events that once they happen, they can't happen again, like Mikau's death or Skull Kid having the Ocarina. Because of this little things I think that Link doesn't go back in time, but makes all Termina do it. But there are some things that even the Goddess of Time's power can do, like resurrecting people from death or duplicating items, so some things don't become how they were in the past. This would also explain why you can call the giants even when the mosnter was possesing them.

[LionHarted]

To point it out is baseless, since the mark shows up at all sorts of times, including times that we thought the markings shouldn't.

Marks in which one of the triangles is glowing always indicates possession of the respective Triforce piece.

Except you're forgetting that time paradoxes are possible in the Zelda Universe because it's fictional. Link has made various bizarre changes to the original chronology involving the Pedestal of Time like getting the Lens of Truth and the Song of Storms. The chronology was being rewritten as Link continued to make changes to the child timeline.

How does Link obtaining the Lens of Truth and learning the Song of Storms affect the future, aside from the fact that he'll carry them when he returns? It doesn't.

Fyxe and I have already talked about this before, a time paradox is not considered a cataclysmic event in the Zelda universe because given substantial change, time corrects itself to form a new working timeline. Majora's Mask is crawling with multiple timelines that all resulted in the destruction of Termina UNTIL Link finally stopped Majora's Wrath causing time to correct itself for the Dawn of a New Day. Seriously, this shit has been in science-fiction for years.

You'll be hard-pressed to demonstrate "this shit" in Zelda, though, without it ever explicitly referenced. You can't just assume that outside logic applies. That's inductive reasoning, which is entirely interpretational. The only valid cues are cues from within the game, none of which ever mention "split realities", "time correcting itself" or "time paradoxes."

Edited by LionHarted, 20 October 2006 - 04:01 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

I mam quite sure that Ganonodrf has already touched the Triforce when he was sealed. That Link has the ToC is a proof for it.

But Zelda doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom in that ending so that means Link's ToC was a double.

I also don't think there were ever lines conducting to destruction in MM. There are events that once they happen, they can't happen again, like Mikau's death or Skull Kid having the Ocarina. Because of this little things I think that Link doesn't go back in time, but makes all Termina do it.

I've can't understand those time-travel mechanisms from a scientific point of view, but basically it's a game design issue so that items/masks don't reappear everywhere.

How does Link obtaining the Lens of Truth and learning the Song of Storms affect the future, aside from the fact that he'll carry them when he returns? It doesn't.

It alters your chronology, which in itself is a paradox.

You'll be hard-pressed to demonstrate "this shit" in Zelda, though, without it ever explicitly referenced. You can't just assume that outside logic applies. That's inductive reasoning, which is entirely interpretational. The only valid cues are cues from within the game, none of which ever mention "split realities", "time correcting itself" or "time paradoxes."

Read up on it here for more references to other people's work on paradoxes:-
http://en.wikipedia....dfather_paradox

[Tri-Enforcer]

There's a BIG difference between a birthmark that's shaped like the Triforce and an actual triangle of the golden power embedded in your hand. Link returns to the past with the clearly visible Triforce of Courage that should have been left in the future (causes a plothole in TWW). However, this scene in OoT ending was deliberately included by the game designers themselves because the camera focuses on Link's hand to show he still has Courage in an alternate timeline of Hyrule.

Dude why do you keep over looking the fact that Zelda's mark isn't glowing, if you're considering that Link arrives at a point after Ganon touched the Triforce. Technically is he touched the Triforce in the past--in the same manner--then he still has an unbalanced heart--thus the Triforce will still split and the parts will go to its respective owners. However this is not the case since Zelda does not have her mark. Each character's respective mark resonates when close to someone else with a Triforce piece.

Just tell me what do you think happens in the past, when Link goes back for the final time? If Ganon is still inside the sacred realm, when Link returns to the past, then the Triforce should still be split since Ganon still has an unbalanced heart. Since that is established...where the hell is Zelda's mark. Also, I have the OOT speedrun saved on my computer I look at the ending over and over. Yes, I see the Triforce of Courage mark on Link in the courtyard--however the camera does not 'focus' or zoom in on the mark--it just shows Link and Zelda starring at one another. Even if there is a duplicate ToC that was brought back from the future--Zelda should still have her mark--and the Triforce should still be split up--if Link is sent back after Ganon touched the Triforce.

Marks in which one of the triangles is glowing always indicates possession of the respective Triforce piece.

Apparently you haven't taken notice of the last battle sequence in TWW, cuz I noticed you didn't comment on why the heck we see the marks (their respective triangles glowing) resonating on the characters hands, after all of their Triforce pieces were taken away and even wished upon, then went away--after all that their marks are still glowing--explain that. Like I've said before the marks could also mean that the respective character once beared a Triforce piece. Or we can just consider the marks as too illegitimate, to help understand the Zelda storyline chronology. The marks whether birth marks or symbols of possession are just too sporadic--the marks come sometimes serve as plotholes.

Also, the mark in AoL is not a birthmark--if that were the case AoL Link would've been noticed the mark long before his 16th birthday. I think that if Child Link in OOT had never traveled into the future--along with Ganon never touching the Triforce--Child Link would of grown up the normal way and came of age--he'd probably acquire the same mark we see in AoL. However since the events of OOT happened the way that they did, Link received the mark early, since the Triforce of Courage was now in him. We also see an unresonated mark on TP Link--it's safe to assume that he's already of age in that game, however he doesn't possesse the ToC early on (I'm sure he may get it later in that game).