156 replies to this topic

[Raien]

As you all know, after the events of OoT had ended, the Triforce of Courage split into eight shards when the Hero of Time lost the elements that made him a Hero. Take a look at the final meeting between Link and Zelda, after Link was sent back in time. Notice that Link has the mark of the Triforce of Courage on the back of his hand.



Now, in the Child Timeline, the Triforce was never taken by Ganondorf, so according to the split timeline theory, there are now two pieces of the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline and no pieces in the Adult Timeline. But since we know TWW takes place in the Adult Timeline, this situation is impossible. Therefore, we know that a Single Timeline must occur.

On top of this is what Ganondorf tells Link in TWW: ...surely you are the Hero of Time reborn... This statement also becomes impossible if Link dies in another timeline altogether.

PS: For all of you who think that TWW messes up with the OoT-ALTTP connection, I have evidence that TWW was actually intended to fulfil a major event that is the one overlooked inconsistency between OoT and ALTTP, not to change the timeline as many people assume. I will make a new topic to explain this.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 October 2006 - 12:54 PM.

[LionHarted]

Well, if you want to get technical, the Triforce doesn't necessarily split after the events of OoT (looking at the timeline), but it is certainly so with respect to Link. We don't actually know exactly when it split. But you're right--it certainly can't have split before he got to the past, since obviously he still carries it when he gets back.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 01:09 PM.

[Keen]

Does the mark of the Triforce necessarily mean that he still has the Triforce, or just that he once held it?

[LionHarted]

Does the mark of the Triforce necessarily mean that he still has the Triforce, or just that he once held it?

Those two parts will be held within others chosen by destiny, who will bear the Triforce mark on the backs of their hands.

In-game text ftw.

[mmmmm_PIE]

Neither, it is only a mark of status.
Link (in AOL) receives the mark due to the ancient spell of a long dead King.

Therefore, I have decided to cast a spell on all of Hyrule. A crest will
appear on a young man with that character who has been brought up correctly,
has gained many kinds of experiences and reached a certain age.

Link (in OoX) is marked as an ambassador, the Hylain Hero, to other lands. It is the mark by which he is recognised.

I see a (triforce symbol) on the back of your left hand. That is the sign of a Hyrulean hero!

Link (in tWW) is marked not when he completes thew Triforce, but when he offeres it as a sign to the gods.
Link (in OOT) posesses the Triforce for most of the game with no mark at all.

The mark on Link's hand post OOT doesn't nesassarily mean anything...

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 18 October 2006 - 01:25 PM.

[LionHarted]

In both OoT and TWW, though, we see the Piece of Courage glowing on his hands, as we see in the end of OoT. In AoL and OoS/OoA, it is implied that he has the "birthmark" on his hand, not the actual Triforce piece.

[mmmmm_PIE]

http://gallery.zelda...a...um=23&pos=6

Looks farily authentic to me...

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 18 October 2006 - 01:28 PM.

[LionHarted]

http://gallery.zelda...a...um=23&pos=6

Looks farily authentic to me...

None of them particular pieces is glowin' more than the others, though, if I be not mistaken.

Yarr.

http://zelda.salagir...rad/trilink.jpg

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 01:32 PM.

[mmmmm_PIE]

Yarr... so? It was a concept in the making.

Besides, this whole thing is about as relevant as the Ocarina inconcistency. If the developers really **did** intend a DT, they wouldn't nesassarily have accounted for every possible little detail.

[LionHarted]

Yarr... so? It was a concept in the making.

"A birthmark will appear on the back of the hand of one who is raised properly and has the Hero's values" [/bad paraphrase]
is not the same as
"Those two parts will be held within others chosen by destiny, who will bear the Triforce mark on the backs of their hands."

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 01:40 PM.

[Keen]

"Those two parts will be held within others chosen by destiny, who will bear the Triforce mark on the backs of their hands."

That doesn't say that that mark is erased when they give the Triforce up. It also doesn't say that someone cannot have the mark without holding the Triforce at all.

[LionHarted]

That doesn't say that that mark is erased when they give the Triforce up. It also doesn't say that someone cannot have the mark without holding the Triforce at all.

When did Link give the Triforce up? =/

And why would you assume conditions outside of the presented ones exist?

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 01:51 PM.

[Keen]

Suppose that someone other than Ganondorf was destined to hold the Triforce of Power. Even though that person never actually received the Triforce, would they still have a mark for being destined to receive it?

[Raien]

Suppose that someone other than Ganondorf was destined to hold the Triforce of Power. Even though that person never actually received the Triforce, would they still have a mark for being destined to receive it?

No. If someone holds a Triforce piece, the Triforce mark appears on the back of their hand with the piece that the person holds glowing brightly on the mark. If a Hero is chosen by destiny (only in AoL and Oracles so far), then that individual will possess the Triforce mark without a glowing symbol because that Hero does not possess the Triforce pieces. If you think about it, Link in OoT gained the Triforce mark at the time he was announced the Hero of Time. Link in TWW also gained the Triforce mark at the same time he gained the title "Hero of Winds".

In conclusion, the Triforce mark is related to destiny and especially to the Hero. Those who receive the Triforce pieces are destined to receive them and so they are given the Triforce mark with the glowing symbol to show their connection with destiny.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 October 2006 - 02:31 PM.

[Arturo]

As you all know, after the events of OoT had ended, the Triforce of Courage split into eight shards when the Hero of Time lost the elements that made him a Hero. Take a look at the final meeting between Link and Zelda, after Link was sent back in time. Notice that Link has the mark of the Triforce of Courage on the back of his hand.



Now, in the Child Timeline, the Triforce was never taken by Ganondorf, so according to the split timeline theory, there are now two pieces of the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline and no pieces in the Adult Timeline. But since we know TWW takes place in the Adult Timeline, this situation is impossible. Therefore, we know that a Single Timeline must occur.

On top of this is what Ganondorf tells Link in TWW: ...surely you are the Hero of Time reborn... This statement also becomes impossible if Link dies in another timeline altogether.

PS: For all of you who think that TWW messes up with the OoT-ALTTP connection, I have evidence that TWW was actually intended to fulfil a major event that is the one overlooked inconsistency between OoT and ALTTP, not to change the timeline as many people assume. I will make a new topic to explain this.

How do you know that Ganondorf doesn't get the Triforce? The opposite is clealy possible. We see that the Door of Time is open, so Link must have already got the Ocarina of Time. But Zelda is back at Hyrule Castle, so Ganondorf can't be around anymore. Where is him? Sealed in the Sacred Realm, as said on our timeline-trascending-seal theory. He has already touched the Triforce. If he hadn't he would not have had it in ALttP.

And also, what does the quote have to do with that? If all Hyrule is split, Link's soul must have been, necessarily. So he can reincarnate freely.

[spunky-monkey]

I've been wondering this for a long time now... Where the hell did that other Triforce of Courage come from?

The Triforce belonging to the adult timeline remained there with Ganon and Zelda while Link's exploded into 8 shards after he closed the road between times. But in the child timeline the entire Triforce is obviously in the sacred/evil realm with Ganondorf who was sealed when Link closed the Door of Time.

This spare ToC is clearly not a birthmark because it is shining on Link's hand, but what's odd is that Triforce part isn't seen in Majora's Mask. Did it go 'dormant' again like in OoT?

[Arturo]

I think that Ganondorf did in fact touch the Triforce, and that for some reason, Zelda didn't receive the ToW this time. So when Link goes to Termina, he's separated from the elements that make him a hero, and it goes to Ganondorf, since we know the Triforce tends to combine into one when it has no holder

[Hero of Slime]

since we know the Triforce tends to combine into one when it has no holder

Why? What is this based on?

Edited by The Zol, 18 October 2006 - 03:22 PM.

[Arturo]

Again??????????????????

Anyway:

Ganondorf:

The Triforce parts are resonating...
They are combining into one again...

And also we see it in TWW, when Ganondorf makes his and Link's Triforce appear, Zelda's Triforce also gets out of her, because she's to weak then to keep it.

Edited by Arturo, 18 October 2006 - 03:28 PM.

[Jumbie]

Now, in the Child Timeline, the Triforce was never taken by Ganondorf,

Of course it was taken by Ganondorf! Link returned to the Child timeline with Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm, so Ganondorf has got his ToP and Link his ToC.

according to the split timeline theory, there are now two pieces of the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline and no pieces in the Adult Timeline.

Completely wrong. There is one ToC in each timeline, logically. Adult Link left his ToC in the future when he travelled back, while Young Link received the ToC of the past as soon as he re-emerged in the Child timeline.

PS: For all of you who think that TWW messes up with the OoT-ALTTP connection, I have evidence that TWW was actually intended to fulfil a major event that is the one overlooked inconsistency between OoT and ALTTP, not to change the timeline as many people assume. I will make a new topic to explain this.

Fine, bring it on.

Does the mark of the Triforce necessarily mean that he still has the Triforce, or just that he once held it?

1) The usual Triforce (birth)mark is just a symbol on someone's hand that has a slightly darker skin tone.
2) The mark of a Triforce bearer, however, is that same symbol *plus* up to three smaller triangles glowing with a golden light.
About 1) we have lots of different information from AoL, Oracles and TP, which suggests that the reasons for its emergence may differ greatly.
We know for sure though how 2) works, namely as soon as someone receives an actual piece of the Triforce, this mark appears with one triangle glowing. So logically, as soon as the Triforce leaves their body again, also the golden glow has to cease. I cannot say if also the darker tone symbol vanishes then, but that's not important for the issue of Young Link in OoT's child ending bearing the ToC.

I've been wondering this for a long time now... Where the hell did that other Triforce of Courage come from?

The Triforce belonging to the adult timeline remained there with Ganon and Zelda while Link's exploded into 8 shards after he closed the road between times. But in the child timeline the entire Triforce is obviously in the sacred/evil realm with Ganondorf who was sealed when Link closed the Door of Time.

So we should assume, yes. But the shining mark means that Link *does* have the ToC without a doubt, so Ganondorf simply can't have it at that point in time That's all the explanation we get.

This spare ToC is clearly not a birthmark because it is shining on Link's hand, but what's odd is that Triforce part isn't seen in Majora's Mask. Did it go 'dormant' again like in OoT?

No, most certainly the Triforce cannot be taken away from the Hyrule dimension, as this would break the natural laws just as much as taking the Triforce away from a different timeline. Therefore the ToC would leave Link's body as soon as he entered Termina. Staying behind in the Hyrule dimension, the ToC logically has to retreat to the place where it has always been kept, the Sacred Realm. There, however, is now the imprisoned Ganondorf, who is sure to snatch it with glee. That sums it up.

Why? What is this based on?

What Arturo said. And where, do you think, would a released Triforce piece go, if not to the Sacred Realm? Would it go to the Lost Woods, to Lake Hylia or to Death Mountain?!

[MikePetersSucks]

Of course it was taken by Ganondorf! Link returned to the Child timeline with Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm, so Ganondorf has got his ToP and Link his ToC.

That's only an assumption. One could easily say that Link returned to the Child timeline at just a few seconds after he originally lifted the sword, then put it down, preventing Ganon from messing with it, and the mark on his hand is like, some sort of mark of destiny.

No, most certainly the Triforce cannot be taken away from the Hyrule dimension, as this would break the natural laws just as much as taking the Triforce away from a different timeline. Therefore the ToC would leave Link's body as soon as he entered Termina. Staying behind in the Hyrule dimension, the ToC logically has to retreat to the place where it has always been kept, the Sacred Realm. There, however, is now the imprisoned Ganondorf, who is sure to snatch it with glee. That sums it up.

Proof? That's just an assumption on your part.

[LionHarted]

And also, what does the quote have to do with that? If all Hyrule is split, Link's soul must have been, necessarily. So he can reincarnate freely.

Link never dies in your version of the Adult timeline--he leaves the Adult timeline completely for the Child timeline. How is he supposed to be reincarnated?

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 05:35 PM.

[Jumbie]

and the mark on his hand is like, some sort of mark of destiny.

This wouldn't make any sense, as I explained about the two types of Triforce marks in my last post.

Proof? That's just an assumption on your part.

It's an assumption, but the most logical one.

Link never dies in your version of the Adult timeline--he leaves the Adult timeline completely for the Child timeline. How is he supposed to be reincarnated?

Link leaves the future, so he is essentially not existing there anymore - Adult Link is "dead" because his adult body disintegrated into energy which is left in the future to keep the mass-energy system in balance. His soul, however, travels both back to the past with Young Link, and stays in future Hyrule, free to be reincarnated in time for TP.

[LionHarted]

Adult Link is "dead" because his adult body disintegrated into energy which is left in the future to keep the mass-energy system in balance.

No, I'm sorry, metaphorical deaths don't count. He can be metaphorically reincarnated now, though.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 06:26 PM.

[Jumbie]

No, I'm sorry, metaphorical deaths don't count. He can be metaphorically reincarnated now, though.

Uh... they "don't count"?! Adult Link disappears *materially*. To say he dies, would sound a bit strange as we all know Link doesn't really die, just go back to the past. His adult body disintegrates though, or how else would you describe his disappearance.

[LionHarted]

Uh... they "don't count"?! Adult Link disappears *materially*. To say he dies, would sound a bit strange as we all know Link doesn't really die, just go back to the past. His adult body disintegrates though, or how else would you describe his disappearance.

"Disintegrates"? Hardly. More like it's yanked out of the space-time continum and plopped in the past. As TWW puts it, he "disappeared", or "journeyed into the flows of time." He didn't disintegrate.

There's no death involved there; without death, there cannot be reincarnation.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 06:34 PM.

[Jumbie]

There's no death involved there; without death, there cannot be reincarnation.

Say you! It'd be interesting to know what MikePetersSucks thinks of this statement..

[LionHarted]

Who needs MikePetersSucks? All we need is a basic knowledge of the meaning of the word.
"Reincarnation (n.) the belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form."

And with that, I'm done arguing over this. If you're going to contest the primary dictionary definition, I don't want to deal with you.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 06:44 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

No, most certainly the Triforce cannot be taken away from the Hyrule dimension, as this would break the natural laws just as much as taking the Triforce away from a different timeline. Therefore the ToC would leave Link's body as soon as he entered Termina. Staying behind in the Hyrule dimension, the ToC logically has to retreat to the place where it has always been kept, the Sacred Realm. There, however, is now the imprisoned Ganondorf, who is sure to snatch it with glee. That sums it up.

That doesn't answer the question of where this spare Triforce of Courage came from. Ganon has the Triforce of Power in the adult timeline, Zelda has Wisdom, and in order for the events in TWW to make sense Courage must have exploded into 8 parts throughout Hyrule because you can't take the Triforce out of its original timeline. Yet in the child timeline Link clearly has the ToC, Zelda is shocked, and stranger still Ganondorf was sealed away with the full Triforce before his evil reign could even start.

And why can't the Triforce exist outside of Hyrule? Its appearance in Oracle series ending seems to disprove that theory.

Link leaves the future, so he is essentially not existing there anymore - Adult Link is "dead" because his adult body disintegrated into energy which is left in the future to keep the mass-energy system in balance. His soul, however, travels both back to the past with Young Link, and stays in future Hyrule, free to be reincarnated in time for TP.

That makes absolutely no sense. Time Travel even in theory doesn't work like that at all, and Science has no mention of the 'soul' either.

[Keen]

That doesn't answer the question of where this spare Triforce of Courage came from. Ganon has the Triforce of Power in the adult timeline, Zelda has Wisdom, and in order for the events in TWW to make sense Courage must have exploded into 8 parts throughout Hyrule because you can't take the Triforce out of its original timeline. Yet in the child timeline Link clearly has the ToC, Zelda is shocked, and stranger still Ganondorf was sealed away with the full Triforce before his evil reign could even start.

And why can't the Triforce exist outside of Hyrule? Its appearance in Oracle series ending seems to disprove that theory.

Perhaps another game in the line will explain why the Triforce is in all these different places at different times. But one cannot make much of an arguement against the split timeline unless there is some object that is in two different places at the same time. And even in that case, there remains a possible time-travel explanation. And what piece of canon says that the Triforce cannot go wherever it darn well pleases?