187 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

Kaepora Gaebora

I think it is implied by the fact that Link and Zelda (and a few others) are the only ones ever stated to be reincarnated, and they have that whole destiny thing going on.

[MikePetersSucks]

So what about the Valiant Comics Zelda then?

What about her?

[coinilius]

What about her?

Well, one, I was joking, which was why I had the at the end

but two - her personality is not quite the same as the cartoon version of Princess Zelda's, and if you're going to be mentioning the cartoon Zelda, then I don't see how the Valiant Comic version isn't just as 'valid' for consideration for LoZ Zelda's personality.

[Jumbie]

The original, whole Zelda had Higher, Spiritual Wisdom straight from the Goddesses while LOZ Zelda might simply just be brainy, since the cartoon Zelda lacks the maturity and spiritual enlightenment the true Zelda possessed.

Hey, this slightly reminds me of Tetra compared to Zelda. Maybe another instance where Shinentai might explain something? Or maybe not..

if you're going to be mentioning the cartoon Zelda, then I don't see how the Valiant Comic version isn't just as 'valid' for consideration for LoZ Zelda's personality.

So we're trying to attest LoZ Zelda a certain personality. The game gives no base at all, so fanfic (or taking inspiration from non-canon sources) can't be avoided. Then again, what are we doing this for after all?!

It's ironic that here we're talking about Sleeping Zelda and LoZ Zelda, while in the Sleeping Zelda thread a debate about major timeline issues is going on..

[MikePetersSucks]

Hey, this slightly reminds me of Tetra compared to Zelda. Maybe another instance where Shinentai might explain something? Or maybe not..

Well, here Triforce of Wisdom IS split, and the King of Hyrule has high, Spiritual Wisdom while lacking a bit of common sense ^^ But no, it's probably not shinentai. More like how a person can't acquire Higher Wisdom without having an epiphany of some sort like Tetra had. A simpler metaphor would be Eve and the Apple. the Christians see it as the first sin, but in the Gnostic cosmology, the taste of the apple is what makes Eve an individual with true intelligence and wisdom instead of some monkey.

[coinilius]

So we're trying to attest LoZ Zelda a certain personality. The game gives no base at all, so fanfic (or taking inspiration from non-canon sources) can't be avoided. Then again, what are we doing this for after all?!

I knew why we were talking about cartoon Zelda, I was just pointing out that cartoon Zelda wasn't the only depiction of LoZ Zelda in other media, and so we don't actually have any sort of 'definitive' non-canon personality for her. You can use one version to support the arguement, but someone else can use the other version to counter it. Then again, in the Valiant comics LoZ herself was the one who was put into the eternal sleep, and there was no 'sleeping Zelda' from the past at all, so I guess it's irrelevent anyway (well, more irrelevent than it was already)

(I didn't get enough sleep last night and I'm still tired, so I have no idea if what I just wrote even makes sense, BTW)

It's ironic that here we're talking about Sleeping Zelda and LoZ Zelda, while in the Sleeping Zelda thread a debate about major timeline issues is going on..

Yeah, I had to double check what thread this was in

[Jumbie]

You can use one version to support the arguement, but someone else can use the other version to counter it.

Someone countering one of the rare attempts to explain the issue of the two Zeldas would be very cruel

[Duke Serkol]

Someone countering one of the rare attempts to explain the issue of the two Zeldas would be very cruel

But is there even an issue to explain? I mean, we have two princesses named Zelda, one of which is the other's ancestor who was put into a magical slumber (not a direct ancestor of course, at least, I assume being a princess she had no heirs).
I don't see any issues with their co-existance, unless you're worried about the people in the castle going mad while trying to tell them apart (assuming they look alike, which we don't know )

If any the real issue is determining the time when the sleeping beauty was born, but that's been debated to death

Ah, except for monolinkists and monozeldists, but I reckon they are nearing extinction

[Jumbie]

But is there even an issue to explain? I mean, we have two princesses named Zelda, one of which is the other's ancestor who was put into a magical slumber (not a direct ancestor of course, at least, I assume being a princess she had no heirs).
I don't see any issues with their co-existance, unless you're worried about the people in the castle going mad while trying to tell them apart (assuming they look alike, which we don't know )

Well, there is an issue to explain. Assuming that each incarnation of Link and Zelda has the same eternal soul inside, it was quite a problem to have two Zeldas coexisting. So the only logical explanation is that Zelda's soul is split, and one half of it is reincarnated inside the LoZ Zelda.

[Arturo]

This is reaching the limits of surrealism, while in the Sleeping Zelda topic they are speaking about whether it's correct for me to assume SW=OoT, here it's about Sleeping Zelda. About the two Zeldas....

Maybe one is in South Hyrule and the other in North Hyrule. Another possibility is that the LoZ has already died, this would ex`plain why Link has the ToW Zelda had in AoL. But that would be simply cruel.

[Showsni]

Well, there is an issue to explain. Assuming that each incarnation of Link and Zelda has the same eternal soul inside, it was quite a problem to have two Zeldas coexisting. So the only logical explanation is that Zelda's soul is split, and one half of it is reincarnated inside the LoZ Zelda.

Why on earth should the Zeldas have the same souls? They're nothing to do with each other, bar the name and being related. There's no reason to suppose Zelda reincarnates as a later Zelda.

[Arturo]

Why on earth should the Zeldas have the same souls? They're nothing to do with each other, bar the name and being related. There's no reason to suppose Zelda reincarnates as a later Zelda.

If Link reincarnates "You are the Hero of Time, reborn" and Ganondorf also, why shouldn't Zelda reincarnate.

Zelda, Link and Ganon(dorf) are tied by a link, proved for example in FSA, where Ganon recognizes Zelda without having ever seen her and Zelda identifies him with the ANCIENT DEMON REBORN. Also, the King implies that the name of Zelda is not a name, but a condition. If he was just remembering the naming tradition, why would Tetra's character, clothes and aspect (even the skin colour) change?

Ha! At long last, I have found you...
Princess Zelda

Tell me... If you are not Zelda, then why
do you have this fragment of the Triforce?

[Showsni]

Whenever an evil person gets the triforce, the legendary hero appears to stop him. (PotGC) So Link reincarnates; that's fine and dandy.

Either Ganon must have left something in the trident that possessed Ganondorf in FSA, making him the ancient demon reborn, or else it's merely a figure of speech. In either case there's no reason Ganondorf should reincarnate either.

Why wouldn't Ganon recognise Zelda in FSA? She's quite a prominent figure. And in TWW, he recognises the ToW. He knows that it was left in the hands of Zelda, and he's been searching for her descendant who, by the naming tradition, will also be called Zelda and be the princess. He doesn't know the tradition has been lost.

When The ToW is reunited in TWW, Tetra changes her appearance. This is either due to A) the ToW's power, B) Tetra's own power, C) Daphnes' power or D) Some other reason, but I think one of the first three is most likely. It's probably not Tetra's power, unless it happens unconsciously, though it's possible. I can't see why the king would do it, unless he's got weird issues about dressing people up as his dead daughter. So it's most likely the triforce itself that effects the change, something that it's never been know to do before. Your theory is that she changes because she is a reincarnation of an earlier Zelda. Why? Because she used to be a princess, the triforce now gives her princessy clothes and make up? Do souls remember the clothes they wore in life? The ToW says something like: "In your former life you looked like this, so now I'll make you look like it again despite your new body." It could just be granting her an appearance that matches her status as a princess; "You now realise that you are royalty, so I will endow you with a more royal appearance." It doesn't prove or disprove anything about possible former lives. Occam's Razor; if we're not told of a former life, don't assume one for the sake of it.

[Arturo]

Whenever an evil person gets the triforce, the legendary hero appears to stop him. (PotGC) So Link reincarnates; that's fine and dandy.

Indeed

Either Ganon must have left something in the trident that possessed Ganondorf in FSA, making him the ancient demon reborn, or else it's merely a figure of speech. In either case there's no reason Ganondorf should reincarnate either.

There is no reason but he does. He is reborn as a Gerudo in FSA, he is a different Ganondorf from the OoT one.

Why wouldn't Ganon recognise Zelda in FSA? She's quite a prominent figure.

They have never met before, they recognise themselves instinctly. And no-one except Zelda remembers Ganon as REBORN

And in TWW, he recognises the ToW. He knows that it was left in the hands of Zelda, and he's been searching for her descendant who, by the naming tradition, will also be called Zelda and be the princess. He doesn't know the tradition has been lost.

The tradition hasn't been lost. Because it's no traditin. He says she's Princess Zelda, not a mere, the Holder of the ToW, but the Princess, as last descendant of the crown.

When The ToW is reunited in TWW, Tetra changes her appearance. This is either due to A) the ToW's power, B) Tetra's own power, C) Daphnes' power or D) Some other reason, but I think one of the first three is most likely. It's probably not Tetra's power, unless it happens unconsciously, though it's possible. I can't see why the king would do it, unless he's got weird issues about dressing people up as his dead daughter. So it's most likely the triforce itself that effects the change, something that it's never been know to do before. Your theory is that she changes because she is a reincarnation of an earlier Zelda. Why? Because she used to be a princess, the triforce now gives her princessy clothes and make up? Do souls remember the clothes they wore in life? The ToW says something like: "In your former life you looked like this, so now I'll make you look like it again despite your new body." It could just be granting her an appearance that matches her status as a princess; "You now realise that you are royalty, so I will endow you with a more royal appearance." It doesn't prove or disprove anything about possible former lives. Occam's Razor; if we're not told of a former life, don't assume one for the sake of it.

Former life? It's not that I am talking about a former life. It's just that every Zelda has the very same essence. I think that the ToW turns her to her TRUE appearance, that of the Princess of hyrule, in the same way the ToW turns Sheik into Zelda.

[Hero of Legend]

Whenever an evil person gets the triforce, the legendary hero appears to stop him. (PotGC) So Link reincarnates; that's fine and dandy.

And we are told that Link and Zelda's fates are linked. From this we infer that whatever prophesies apply to Link apply to Zelda as well.

Either Ganon must have left something in the trident that possessed Ganondorf in FSA, making him the ancient demon reborn, or else it's merely a figure of speech.

Says you.

In either case there's no reason Ganondorf should reincarnate either.

And what about the fact that has returned from death without explanation multiple times?

And in TWW, he recognises the ToW. He knows that it was left in the hands of Zelda, and he's been searching for her descendant who, by the naming tradition, will also be called Zelda and be the princess.

No. What Ganondorf says is that the princess with the ToW IS Princess Zelda.

We know this because:

King: The Triforce of Wisdom is none other than the sacred power of the gods that we have kept from Ganon's clutches for so many long years.

The gods placed upon your ancestors the task of protecting it from evil's grasp.

You, too, must abide by the laws of the past...and so the time has come for me to teach you the fate into which you were born, the very reason that you live.

Zelda: My...fate...

King: You are the true heir of the royal family of Hyrule...the last link in the bloodline.

You are Princess Zelda.

So, basically, the King says there is a connection between the ToW, Zelda's fate, her heritage, and her name. This has nothing to do with some naming tradition, but it has everything to do with OoT Zelda being the original keeper of the ToW.

So it's most likely the triforce itself that effects the change, something that it's never been know to do before.

Ganondorf was transformed by the Triforce into a being that reflected his heart (or his "true form") This is no different.

Occam's Razor; if we're not told of a former life, don't assume one for the sake of it.

That would have been true if we had a reason to believe Link and Zelda have different separate, and that they were not reborn. But in reality, it is quite the contrary.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 11 September 2006 - 04:45 PM.

[Jumbie]

Maybe one is in South Hyrule and the other in North Hyrule.

Yes, that's certainly so. While the kingdom of LoZ Zelda (and her father, possibly) was down south of Death Mountain, the Sleeping Zelda has rested up in the North Castle

Another possibility is that the LoZ has already died, this would ex`plain why Link has the ToW Zelda had in AoL. But that would be simply cruel.

Well, I've always wondered why Zelda leaves both Ganon's ToP and her own ToW to Link, but maybe the simple answer is that Link won both pieces himself, so they're his own

Why on earth should the Zeldas have the same souls? They're nothing to do with each other, bar the name and being related. There's no reason to suppose Zelda reincarnates as a later Zelda.

Maybe you disagree, but many other people think that Link's soul is always the same (even while wielding the Four Sword), Ganondorf's soul is always the same, and Zelda's soul is always the same.

Either Ganon must have left something in the trident that possessed Ganondorf in FSA, making him the ancient demon reborn, or else it's merely a figure of speech. In either case there's no reason Ganondorf should reincarnate either.

Your first line is most likely the correct solution. As for the Goddesses' reason to have Ganondorf reincarnate, it was probably for giving him a chance to come back as a good person, like you see so often in fiction, to be a good guardian for his tribe this time around. Also, if the demon essence of "Ganon" remained in the Trident when he was killed in an earlier game (most say Oracles), the chances for a reborn Ganondorf to become a good person should have been very good. The only problem was that the Trident had been stored in close vicinity to the Gerudo village, able to influence and beckon Ganondorf to "reunite" with it to become Ganon, the King of Evil, once again.
I'm very confident of this theory being true, because it makes 100% sense and there's just no other reasonable way to explain this part of FSA's plot.

When The ToW is reunited in TWW, Tetra changes her appearance. This is either due to A) the ToW's power, B) Tetra's own power, C) Daphnes' power or D) Some other reason

I'd say the ToW is it, since Sheik also used it to transform back into Zelda.

I can't see why the king would do it, unless he's got weird issues about dressing people up as his dead daughter.

Well, this is complicated. Daphnes' daughter must be dead because she was one of those who climbed the mountaintops and then carried on the royal line up until Tetra, while Daphnes himself was one of the few survivors of Ganon's onslaught on Hyrule, so he was frozen in time while most others flew onto the mountains.
But, although Tetra is probably Daphnes' great-great-granddaughter or so, from how he treats her it looks like he doesn't see her as a stranger but as his own daughter reborn. And in fact, why shouldn't this be the case.

So it's most likely the triforce itself that effects the change, something that it's never been know to do before.

Sheik. Other than that, we've never seen a Zelda that had an alter-ego, so we couldn't know that the Triforce has this power as well.

Your theory is that she changes because she is a reincarnation of an earlier Zelda. Why? Because she used to be a princess, the triforce now gives her princessy clothes and make up? Do souls remember the clothes they wore in life?

..That's the theory, yes. We're dealing with fantasy here, right? When in Dragonball Z two persons fuse to one, they are assigned a very special clothing that seems to come from nowhere. How is this possible? No idea, and why should anyone care.

The ToW says something like: "In your former life you looked like this, so now I'll make you look like it again despite your new body."

There's no such thing as a new body. We should assume that Tetra looks *exactly* like OoT Zelda would when dressed up in a pirate costume.

Occam's Razor; if we're not told of a former life, don't assume one for the sake of it.

But we are told about a former life - OoT and soon TP show a Zelda that lived before TWW's Zelda. No one says that TWW Zelda can remember a life before her current one as Tetra, but her soul (without memories) was reincarnated from her predecessors nevertheless.

[MikePetersSucks]

We know for a fact Reincarnation applies to mundane individuals thanks to the Gossip Stones. Why would some people reincarnate and not others? Zelda's pretty clear on the fact that you either become a ghost or reincarnate.

[Showsni]

Agree to disagree? I can't see that it matters too much if it's the same soul or not, and I don't think my arguments could convince you or vice versa.

[Crazy Penguin]

Well, there is an issue to explain. Assuming that each incarnation of Link and Zelda has the same eternal soul inside

It's only a problem if you make that assumption. So leave the assumption behind.

[MikePetersSucks]

For the Record, Master, there are many people, like myself, who've believed in the reincarnation bit since the beginning.

[Arturo]

It's only a problem if you make that assumption. So leave the assumption behind.

If Link in TWW is the re-incartnation of the OoT Link why shouldn't the others be re-incarnations as well?


And if both Link and Ganondorf reincarnate, why can't Zelda? After all they are all united by destiny.....

[Fyxe]

I can't believe this insane argument is still going. You're all looking at it from a very... Obsessive standpoint. Constant desire for a reason and answer to everything, even though it's a *video game*. Nobody explains the exact power that turns people into weird creatures when they enter the Dark World, nobody's explained what the scientific force is, nobody's explained where Ganondorf gets his magical powers from, or what magic is, so why the hell try and explain exactly how the 'reincarnation' thing works, if it exists at all?

A hero called Link appears repeatedly in Hyrule history along with princesses called Zelda. Big whoop. Why? How? Who cares, it's because it's a video game.

Edited by Fyxe, 18 September 2006 - 05:35 PM.

[Jumbie]

It wasn't until TWW that people started to think that all the Links and Zeldas are reincarnations of OoT's Link and Zelda.

So what? TWW was the first (and only, if you care so much about it) game that gave an explanation for it, but I'm sure it retroactively applies to *all* of the games. There's no reason to assume only the Hero of Time and the Hero of Wind are reincarnations of each other.

However, in other games, Zelda seems to have some knowledge of Link in some form. She almost always says that the name sounds familiar.

So, make your three guesses as to just why that might be...!

Based on what we've seen in the games, Link is a very common name in Hyrule, and possibly even more common within the line of the Knights of Hyrule. Zelda may have heard someone else's name, which was Link, and remembered it when she meets with Link for the first time.

Rarely heard such a baseless assumption! Link does NOT have to be a common name, judging by Nabooru's comment about it sounding outlandish, and all we know for sure is that the name appears once per century, roughly.

Now, I do have a better explanation which is slightly hinted at in OoT. If you listen to what the Royal Composer Bros. say before you get the Sun's Song, one of them will say something about the women of the Royal Family posessing special powers. No, I'm not saying that it's the Light Force.

However, you had better say that..!

It is just some sort of magical power that is obviously more prominent in females born to the Royal Family.

No different is the Light Force.

We know that every Zelda has some sort of mystical power, and it almost always has to do with prophetic dreams. Zelda could have known the name, despite never hearing Link's name or meeting Link, because of her prophetic abilities.

Of course she knew his name, or at least it was so familiar to her as if she had known it. Don't forget, also Link had reoccurring visions of Zelda and Ganondorf in OoT's beginning. Zelda may have superior powers than your average Hylian, but Link is no different. It must have to do with being a chosen one of the Triforce.

Anyway, my point is that there could be other explanations as to how Zelda somehow feels as if she's known Link that don't involve reincarnation. We are only told that some character has been reincarnated twice, and they are Link (TWW) and Ganondorf (FSA). Saying that every Link and every Zelda is a reincarnation of the original ones in OoT is a bit close to making things up.

But it doesn't hurt in the slightest, either. There's no reason to doubt that they are always the same soul, and in my understanding of Occam's Razor, it seems easier to apply TWW's explanation on all the games than to find a different explanation with each game.

It's only a problem if you make that assumption. So leave the assumption behind.

No, I have no reason to. Not assuming they reincarnate makes for much more problems.

Because we would be making an assumption, which may eventually take us into the realm of fanfiction. To keep things as factual as possible, we must go off of only what we are told and led to believe. Nothing hints towards all the Links being reincarnations, so there is no reason to believe or assume that they are.

There is. Imagine for a second that all the games used the graphics style of TP - why should Link's facial features look different in each game?! Yes, the hairstyle and clothing style may differ, but I think not the hair colour. Although he seemed to be brown-haired in the first couple of games, I blame this on a different understanding of what colour should be used to depict a blond person. Princess Zelda was seemingly brunette in the first two games as well!
People often say that Link's personality in TWW is a different one than in OoT. This cannot be denied, of course, but I'm sure the reason for this is his different upbringing, not his genes. OoT Link lived among many other children without any adults around, so he had to be responsible for himself, while TWW Link had both a grandmother and a sister who cared for him and he for them. So it's natural that OoT Link wasn't afraid of anything, while TWW Link first needed a real aim, the rescue of his sister, to lose all his fear. Therefore the different personalities of two Links do in no way imply that they can't be the same soul reincarnated.
What the games did teach us though is that a hero is destined to appear every time evil threatens the world. There's no reason for the Goddesses to pick a different soul to do the job every time (with KnS being the only exception), so they may as well "reuse" the same eternal Hero soul in a boy that eventually grows up to become that Hero.

[coinilius]

There is. Imagine for a second that all the games used the graphics style of TP - why should Link's facial features look different in each game?! Yes, the hairstyle and clothing style may differ, but I think not the hair colour. Although he seemed to be brown-haired in the first couple of games, I blame this on a different understanding of what colour should be used to depict a blond person. Princess Zelda was seemingly brunette in the first two games as well!

Even if Link and Zelda do reincarnate (which I happen to think is the case), there's no need for each and everyone of them to be comepletely identical in terms of features and hair colour - they are still in different bodies, after all. Also, I prefer the brown haired, less 'pretty boy' looking Link of the earlier games

[Fyxe]

*Bangs her head against a wall*

More productive.

[Arturo]

*Bangs her head against a wall*

More productive.

I appreciate mine too much for that

So, I will not ellaborate much on this, I will just give quotes:

Ganondorf TWW

Yes, surely you are the Hero of Time,
reborn...

King TWW to Zelda

You, too, must abide by the laws of the
past...and so the time has come for me to
teach you the fate into which you were
born, the very reason that you live.

Zelda FSA (as you might have noticed my favourite Zelda quote)

Ganon... this beast was once
of the Gerudo... Once human.
He was called Ganondorf!

King of Darkness, ancient
demon reborn. The wielder
of the trident!!

TMC Ending

But surely, this is not the end of Zelda
and Link's adventures in Hyrule.

I find tremendously interesting this last quote, and checked all the European versions, and I found something really interesting in the Spanish one, it says: "Aunque... Hyrule siempre necesitará
la presencia de Link y de Zelda..." that translated means "Although... Hyrule will always need Link's and Zelda's presence".

[Hero of Legend]

I find tremendously interesting this last quote, and checked all the European versions, and I found something really interesting in the Spanish one, it says: "Aunque... Hyrule siempre necesitará
la presencia de Link y de Zelda..." that translated means "Although... Hyrule will always need Link's and Zelda's presence".

Hmm... You say so? I have always taken that line as yet another piece of evidence for Link and Zelda's reincarnation, as it speaks of them as the same entities throughout the ages. The Spanish version supports my theory. But what's important to note here is that the European version was translated directly from Japanese, so therefore it holds that much more credibility.

Zelda FSA (as you might have noticed my favourite Zelda quote)

You might also quote Ganon here:

The princess of Hyrule and all her power amounts to nothing!

Zelda! I, Ganon, now seal you away forever!

In short: "Stay gone this time, bitch!"

Even if Link and Zelda do reincarnate (which I happen to think is the case), there's no need for each and everyone of them to be comepletely identical in terms of features and hair colour - they are still in different bodies, after all.

Though, it IS implied that they are identical. In TWW, Link looks pretty much like the HoT (Who looks nothing like he did in OoT, BTW), and Zelda looks exactly like the princess on the painting. In TMC, Link looks more or less like the HoM, and Zelda looks exactly like the princess in the stained glass window.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 September 2006 - 12:56 PM.

[Arturo]

Hmm... You say so? I have always taken that line as yet another piece of evidence for Link and Zelda's reincarnation, as it speaks of them as the same entities throughout the ages. The Spanish version supports my theory. But what's important to note here is that the European version was translated directly from Japanese, so therefore it holds that much more credibility.

Huh? Maybe I haven't spoken clearly, but I have given this as an evidence for reincarnation. And yes, my very own Spanish version supports it.