187 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

She says Link is possibly the last of that line. She doesn't know for sure - there could be other people descended from the knights still alive. The Prophecy of the Great Cataclysm states that the hero always comes from the knight's bloodline, so in fact the knight's bloodline must exist in every game, and if it doesn't continue past ALttP then ALttP must be the very last game in the timeline, and if ever an evil person gets the triforce after that the world is doomed.

[Fyxe]

I only need to say one thing to question the accuracy of your so-called 'proof'.

Prove that the knights are of the same knight bloodline rather than simply being Nintendo reusing a similar idea (which happens loads) and using the same name in the US versions of the games?
We don't even know what the knights are called in the Japanese version of FSA, whether they are given a specific name or not.

Also, ALL of the Links are clearly heros, to say otherwise is nonsense. They aren't all THE hero mentioned in the phrophecy about THE 'Great Cataclysm' (don't call it Catastrophy, they mean the same thing and frankly Cataclysm is just a hell of a lot more empathatic. A catastrophy is a city burning down, a cataclysm is an end-of-the-world type event), but that doesn't mean other heros can't appear throughout history.

Edited by Fyxe, 21 August 2006 - 09:28 PM.

[Showsni]

Please take note that this is just a fan's translation of things, and that it is subject to have errors in it. Oh, and the story of the "Great Catastrophe" is more specific. It states that when the "Great Catastrophe" occurs, a Knight of Hyrule will rise up and wield the Master Sword. Here, I'll just give you an exact quote.
The prophecy is a whole lot more specific, and could actually apply to a few games. (OoT and ALttP) A Hero carrying three "crests" will wield the Master Sword and will defeat the evil one that caused the "Great Catastrophe." The "Great Catastrophe" is supposed to occur when an evil person gets their hands on the Triforce, as stated in the following quote.
According to this, the "Great Catastophe" occurs when one with an evil heart claims the Triforce. This occurs in both ALttP and OoT. Both of those Links are Heroes, whereas other Links are not called a Hero.

I feel that this post is somewhat lost, or something. I was caught up in an IM conversation, so I kinda lost my train of thought a few times.

True, the Prophecy need only kick in when an evil person gets the triforce. That still means that it's most likely in effect for LoZ, ALttP, OoT and TWW - all games where Ganon has the triforce. So the knight's bloodline still exists during all those games (and by extension during AoL, LA and MM too). Since LoZ at least is practically guaranteed to occur after AlttP, the bloodline can't have died out completely after ALttP (even if Link has to propogate it alone...) so there are still knights around after ALttP, and it's not a good enough excuse alone to stop FSA happening after ALttP.

[MikePetersSucks]

For all we know, LTTP Link could've used the Triforce to revive the old Knights, or the King started a new family of Knights. Gasp!

Either that or Link got seriously busy with Marin, but...no.

[Hero of Legend]

Either that or Link got seriously busy with Marin, but...no.

Marin wasn't real. Zelda, on the other hand...

[Jumbie]

I will start with them, as it is the stronger of my two points.

The Knights of Hyrule is a totally weak argument for most of us, so what is your other point?

Notice the similarities between the two? Both groups gaurded an artifact of some importance, and they are also known to serve the Royal Family.

So we have similarities between ALttP and FSA, sure thing. But how is that supposed to exclude that FSA comes after ALttP?

the "Great Catastophe" occurs when one with an evil heart claims the Triforce. This occurs in both ALttP and OoT. Both of those Links are Heroes, whereas other Links are not called a Hero.

If called a Hero or not doesn't matter. Common sense dictates that each and every Link is a Hero for kicking Ganon's, Vaati's or Majora's ass. And please don't bother if it's written in capital letters or not - remember, Japanese doesn't even have capital letters.
Do you want to know where the prophecy of the Great Cataclysm most likely comes from? The person usually responsible for having visions and prophecies in the Zelda series is - big surprise - Princess Zelda. Seeing as ALttP happens 1 or 2 centuries after OoT, the prophecy of the Great Cataclysm are the words that Adult Zelda gave Link on his way back to the past:
"Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again reign in this world... for a time."
In context with Ganondorf's threat to break the Seal and come back for revenge one day (which he is seen to do in both ALttP and before TWW), it's obvious that this sentence of Zelda is what over time turns into the prophecy of the Great Cataclysm.

the powers of the Knights of Hyrule were bestowed upon them. They cannot simply have them given to them by the King or any other noble figure.

So I'd like to know what's the difference between 'bestow' and 'give to'? Nothing at all. On the contrary, my dictionary explicitly associates noble persons like Kings with that verb!
Apart from this mistake on your side, why in the world couldn't the Knights of Hyrule (which are to serve the Royal Family) not have been appointed this power by the King of Hyrule?! So we know the old army died in the Sealing War (or it's a mere legend altogether), and what in the world should keep the King from calling up all-new Knights of Hyrule after ALttP and before FSA? Nothing, you just claim this in favour of your own theory.

Edited by Jumbie, 22 August 2006 - 05:21 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

It wouldn't matter if Link had children with Zelda, because Zelda isn't a Knight of Hyrule.

And you know this, how?

Also, it is genetically impossible for the traits of the Knight Family to be passed on beyond ALttP Link.

That's just plain false.

Not that I agree with your (mostly baseless) sentiment that the Knights of Hyrule in FSA/ALttP are the same or anything of the sort...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 August 2006 - 05:23 PM.

[Fyxe]

And you know this, how?

Zelda is a decendant of the Sages, not the Knights of Hyrule. They probably would of mentioned it if she was.

[Showsni]

Actually, the prophecy of the Great Cataclysm (you're right, Fyxe, it sounds much better) is a bit more specific. First, it speaks of a Hero. Not a hero, but a Hero. Nowhere in LoZ or AoL (I think, I'll check a bit later) does it ever call Link a Hero of any sort. Also, a Hero will only arise to wield the Master Sword after acquiring three items of some sort. This does not happen in LoZ, nor AoL. Therefore, the prophecy of the Great Cataclysm needs not apply to them. Not only that, but it can't, because the bloodline of the Knight Family has stopped completely with ALttP Link.

It doesn't need to call them Heros. They clearly are. They are incarnations of Link. The Prophecy does not require the use of the Master Sword; the basic prophecy is simply "If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear... ...and he alone must face the person who began the Great Cataclysm. If the evil one destroys the Hero, nothing can save the world from his wicked reign. Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero..." Embellishments such as "The Hero will stand in the desert holding the Book Of Mudora." presumably refer specifically to this particular occasion.
"The Hero's triumph on Cataclysm's Eve Wins three symbols of virtue. The Master Sword he will then retrieve, Keeping the Knight's line true." is not even said to be part of the prophecy of the Great Cataclysm - it's a seperate prophecy.

And if the knight's line doesn't continue past ALttP, then Hyrule is doomed. For if ever an evil person should get the triforce, no knight's lineage means no hero, and that evil one will triumph, according to the prophecy.

It wouldn't matter if Link had children with Zelda, because Zelda isn't a Knight of Hyrule.

So what if she isn't? Their children would still be "of the Knights of Hyrule" since they are of Link, who is of the Knights.

Also, it is genetically impossible for the traits of the Knight Family to be passed on beyond ALttP Link.

False in any case, (fathers give their children 50% of their genes) but irrelevant nevertheless. Who cares about genetic traits? If my father has a coat of arms, I'm entitled to that coat of arms after him. Ditto my sons, and all down the line. Inheriting a title has nothing to do with DNA.

[Jumbie]

So--what--is--your--second--point, MoALttP?!

[HeroOfTime5]

Has anyone forgot about the trident? In FSA it describes how it came into power and such. The only other zelda game that features the trident is ALttP. Another reason why FSA HAS to come before ALttP.

[Showsni]

No, in FSA the trident already has powers. It's what gives Ganon his powers. It must come after sme event where an evil person has used the trident and left it for a future evil.

[Hero of Slime]

The trident was not only in ALttP, Ganon also used it in OoX and BS Zelda.

[MikePetersSucks]

Marin wasn't real. Zelda, on the other hand...

Depending on the ending, she can become real.

the bloodline of the Knight Family has stopped completely with ALttP Link.

Unless he has kids.

Like I said before, the powers of the Knights of Hyrule were bestowed upon them. They cannot simply have them given to them by the King or any other noble figure. Also, since we don't know what Link's wish was, it's best not to assume what it is. All we can tell is that things returned to how they were before Agahnim came along, so that would be our best bet of what his wish was.

He wished everything ELSE to happen. And the king IS the one who chooses the Knights. That's why they're knights and not Sages.

It wouldn't matter if Link had children with Zelda, because Zelda isn't a Knight of Hyrule. Also, it is genetically impossible for the traits of the Knight Family to be passed on beyond ALttP Link.

So who did the original Knights marry? Their moms and sisters?

[HeroOfTime5]

No, in FSA the trident already has powers. It's what gives Ganon his powers. It must come after sme event where an evil person has used the trident and left it for a future evil.

What I meant is that it discussed the orgin of the Trident, which was on a plague on the pyramid. If I can find a quote I will post it here.

[Hero of Legend]

Depending on the ending, she can become real.

A seagull is in no position to score with a Hylian, though.

Beside, Link "killed" her (Along with everyone else on Koholint). That can't be good for any relationship.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 25 August 2006 - 11:54 AM.

[LionHarted]

I'm going to try to remain entirely objective for the purposes of this thread:

For the record, FSA has a lot of nods to ALttP as far as locale, scenario, and characters are concerned. There are, of course, the Lost Woods, whose design is based off of ALttP's Skull Woods (which seems to explain why the area is called the "Dark World" on the overworld map), the Eastern Temple, which corresponds to the Eastern Palace, the Desert Temple, which of course corresponds to the Desert Palace, Kakariko Village (complete with a band of thieves), and so on.

FSA also features a lot of scenarios that lead into ALttP, such as Ganon being sealed, Ganon taking the Trident (for seemingly the first time), the thieves in Kakariko vacating to the Lost Woods, and so on. All of these things could explain things spoken of in ALttP (particularly the vacating thieves bit), and none of these things can be explained in a post-ALttP FSA placement.

To be fair, a post-ALttP placement allows FSA to circumvent its lack of definite plot contribution to ALttP, but also fails to explain why in the heck Vaati suddenly became a threat, and when exactly the Maidens took up the mantle of protecting the Shrine. It is still a possibility, but I have yet to see a convincing, textually supported argument for it.

[mohammedali]

I would say that FSA clearly seems to come before aLttP, though there are no hard hard facts to prove it. However, this is similar to how there are no hard facts to prove the sequence of numberous Zelda games.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

The thing is, Ganon is dead at the start of FSA. Ganon is dead at the end of ALttP. The Sages's bloodline has become the Maiden's bloodline at the end of ALttP. The Maidens in FSA are prolific and powerful.

LionHarted, you take the nods to ALttP as meaning it's a prequel, but the nods to ALttP could just as easily mean it's a sequel, especially with the trident and the fact that Ganon the *demon* is dead. Ganon was never killed as a demon before ALttP.

To be fair, a post-ALttP placement allows FSA to circumvent its lack of definite plot contribution to ALttP, but also fails to explain why in the heck Vaati suddenly became a threat, and when exactly the Maidens took up the mantle of protecting the Shrine. It is still a possibility, but I have yet to see a convincing, textually supported argument for it.

They're not the *same* Maidens, just like the Knights aren't the same Knights. FSA is a sequel to Four Swords primarily, a sequel to ALttP secondary, so that's why Vaati is a threat.

I also want to note that the Eastern Temple is the actual name of the East Palace in ALttP's Japanese version, likewise with the Desert Temple.

The Palace of Darkness is the same as the Temple of Darkness and ALSO the same as the Shadow Temple. These all have the same name in all three games in Japan. There may or may not be a connection, but they very similar in theme and design.

Edited by Fyxe, 25 August 2006 - 04:39 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

A seagull is in no position to score with a Hylian, though.

Beside, Link "killed" her (Along with everyone else on Koholint). That can't be good for any relationship.

Did you miss that entire scene after Link wakes up where Marin is singing somewhere with seagull wings, alive and well?

[Fyxe]

Did you miss that entire scene after Link wakes up where Marin is singing somewhere with seagull wings, alive and well?

'Marin with seagull wings' was actually changed to a nice little sequence where you see Marin (or rather, the memory of Marin or her essense, or something) turns into a proper seagull in the DX version.

Shame really, I like the idea of Marin with wings.

[Hero of Legend]

The Sages's bloodline has become the Maiden's bloodline at the end of ALttP. The Maidens in FSA are prolific and powerful.

Problem: In ALttP, the Maidens say they have lost the powers of their ancestors, and the general population isn't even Hylian. However, the Maidens in FSA are both powerful and Hylian. So, that part of your argument doesn't really make sense. At all.

Did you miss that entire scene after Link wakes up where Marin is singing somewhere with seagull wings, alive and well?

As Fyxe said, that was changed in LA DX.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 25 August 2006 - 05:41 PM.

[Fyxe]

Problem: In ALttP, the Maidens say they have lost the powers of their ancestors, and the general population isn't even Hylian. However, the Maidens in FSA are both powerful and Hylian. So, that part of your argument doesn't really make sense. At all.

The Maidens clearly hadn't lost all their powers, in fact it's not say they had lost all their power, just some over time. They opened Ganon's Tower and had the inherant power to break the seal of the Sages in in the first place. Besides, I'll say again, they are *not* the same maidens. Nintendo reuses concepts.

Is it ever explicitly stated in FSA that the Maidens are Hylian? And is anyone in ALttP called anything other than Hylian despite the fact that the blood of the *ancient* Hylians had been lost over time? I'm not sure if a big enough distinction is ever made between being an ancient Hylian and being a modern Hylian.

[Jumbie]

FSA also features a lot of scenarios that lead into ALttP, such as Ganon being sealed

But didn't already OoT depict the sealing of Ganon?! ..Of course it did, that's being sarcastic

Ganon taking the Trident (for seemingly the first time)

..For the first time after his reincarnation, that is. Ganon had had the Trident from the start in OoT: Phantom Ganon bore it, and Pig Ganon wielded two swords that could easily be a transfiguration of the Trident.

the thieves in Kakariko vacating to the Lost Woods

And where is Blind in FSA? Shouldn't he have entered the Dark World once his band vacated, as hinted in ALttP?

none of these things can be explained in a post-ALttP FSA placement.

Well no, but can you explain things like how the Dark Tribe was sealed in the Dark Mirror? Probably not, nobody can (yet), but what harm does this to the overall timeline?!

fails to explain why in the heck Vaati suddenly became a threat

Maybe, just maybe, because only some centuries after ALttP the power of the Four Sword began to fade?

when exactly the Maidens took up the mantle of protecting the Shrine.

Whenever Zelda first appointed them! Strictly this could've been even after FS GBA, though that's only a rash guess.

It is still a possibility, but I have yet to see a convincing, textually supported argument for it.

You won't find one (I suppose). And it's not that I would look for one. To me, FSA's placement after ALttP simply works, whereas a placement before ALttP would be much too retcon-y for my taste.

Edited by Jumbie, 25 August 2006 - 09:07 PM.

[Sentient]

Seeing as ALttP happens 1 or 2 centuries after OoT,

What the? ALttP happens a couple of centuries after OoT? Yeah right! Considering that the first part of the timeline has been confirmed (OoT - MM - TP - TWW - PH) by Nintendo themselves, and TWW is hundreds of years after OoT, I don't see how it's possible for ALttP to happen that soon after OoT. If you want to disagree, fine, but you'd just be arguing against evidence given by the guys who make Zelda, so you'll never win.

[mohammedali]

ZeldaGamer21, where did you get that info from?
OoT was confirmed to be the prequal to aLttP, just like WW was. Though I agree that there is no way of knowing how many centuries between them.

Mohammed Ali