187 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

Am I the only one who is lost?

Could you make a summary about the names the Dark thing gets in each game please?

[Hero of Legend]

Fyxe said

No, they hadn't thought of the Dark World in AoL, but in creating a makai in the mythology of Zelda they have since defined what that makai is - the Dark World. A little bit of retconning but not much. All they did was define it.

Maybe, but I see nothing indicating that they did retcon it. 'Makai' could be referring to any number of evil places separate from the Dark World.

Quote

'Mahou' should not be confused with a religious thing at all. It's a 'demon king'. If required, Japan's mythology can have MANY demon kings.

The word has several homonyms, but they all mean roughly the same thing (a 'devil' is a 'demon king'). At any rate, you are right in that the word has nothing to do with the Christian “Devil”.

Jumbie said

But what if we took it to another level: Sacred Realm = "Heaven" of TloZ, Dark World = "Hell" of TLoZ? I mean, with all the afterlife aspects to it?

Um... What afterlife aspects?

Quote

Also, the Evil Realm is desrcibed as a void, and only later as the Dark World it actually contains a ground to walk on (that's at least what some people believe based on in-game quotes, I personally am not entirely sure).

I agree. There seems to be some kind of physical difference between the Evil Realm and the Dark World. Perhaps it was changed somehow after Ganon was sealed within it?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 01 September 2006 - 05:38 AM.

[Fyxe]

Actually, the line is 'the void of the Evil Realm'. This doesn't mean the whole of the 'Evil Realm' is a void. I don't know how that is translated. It sounds a bit too vague. Why would they refer to it as a void all of a sudden?

We know it's not a complete void though, as the Temple of Light still exists.

Edited by Fyxe, 01 September 2006 - 03:26 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

But what if we took it to another level: Sacred Realm = "Heaven" of TloZ, Dark World = "Hell" of TLoZ? I mean, with all the afterlife aspects to it?

What Afterlife aspects?

And even still, Hyruleans reincarnate or become ghosts.

[Jumbie]

Arturo, on Sep 1 2006, 09:56 AM, said:

Could you make a summary about the names the Dark thing gets in each game please?

I won't leave you waiting:

- Dark World -
ALttP: Yami no Sekai = "Dark World"
OoT: Yami no Sekai = "Dark World"
FSA: Yami no Sekai = "Dark World"
*also in FSA appears the "Level 5: Dark World", which in Japanese is called "Ankoku no Sekai" (which translates to the same, but with a different connotation)

- Evil Realm -
AoL: Makai = "World of Spirits" (NoA translation: underworld)
OoT: Makai = "World of Spirits" (NoA translation: Evil Realm)
OoX: Makai = "World of Spirits" (NoA translation: Dark Realm)

Fyxe, on Sep 1 2006, 10:26 PM, said:

We know it's not a complete void though, as the Temple of Light still exists.

Sure, but what's of interest is if the Evil Realm looks different than the Dark World. In Japanese OoT there are both names, Makai and Yami no Sekai, given to the same world, which must have some reason.

MikePetersSucks, on Sep 1 2006, 11:42 PM, said:

What Afterlife aspects?
And even still, Hyruleans reincarnate or become ghosts.

It may have sounded like I was implying that we actually see afterlife aspects to the Sacred Realm/Dark World, but I only meant that we *could* possibly attribute them.
Yes, the reincarnation principle in Hyrule seems to make an afterlife useless, but what about the evil souls? Sure, the poes and ghinis are not quite friendly, but some admit it's part of their 'job' to act nasty. The real bad boys are the living ones.
However, the whole "bringing back monsters from the Dark Realm" ado in OoX and AoL makes it seems like the Dark World is some kind of hell equivalent where all baddies go after being killed (only since the time when Ganondorf tainted the Realm). Or think about Ganondorf in OoT bringing Volvagia back to life - maybe from the Evil Realm?
Hey, this would also give a new depth to the line of Laruto in TWW, "Ganon was revived"..

If all of this was the basic idea of the developers (you may never know, with a game that wildly mingles Japanese and Western mythology), this would explain a lot, I think.

Edited by Jumbie, 01 September 2006 - 09:26 PM.

[Mad Scrub]

Hold up. Evil Realm could = Twilight Realm.

People who don't have special qualities die on entry. Just a thought.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 01 September 2006 - 09:57 PM.

[Crazy Penguin]

Jumbie, on Sep 2 2006, 03:22 AM, said:

- Dark World -
ALttP: Yami no Sekai = "Dark World"
OoT: Yami no Sekai = "Dark World"
FSA: Yami no Sekai = "Dark World"
*also in FSA appears the "Level 5: Dark World", which in Japanese is called "Ankoku no Sekai" (which translates to the same, but with a different connotation)

- Evil Realm -
AoL: Makai = "World of Spirits" (NoA translation: underworld)
OoT: Makai = "World of Spirits" (NoA translation: Evil Realm)
OoX: Makai = "World of Spirits" (NoA translation: Dark Realm)

Thanks, been wanting that information for a while now.

Jumbie, on Sep 2 2006, 03:22 AM, said:

Sure, but what's of interest is if the Evil Realm looks different than the Dark World. In Japanese OoT there are both names, Makai and Yami no Sekai, given to the same world, which must have some reason.

Could you give some examples of where each term is used within Ocarina of Time?

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

It may have sounded like I was implying that we actually see afterlife aspects to the Sacred Realm/Dark World, but I only meant that we *could* possibly attribute them.
Yes, the reincarnation principle in Hyrule seems to make an afterlife useless, but what about the evil souls? Sure, the poes and ghinis are not quite friendly, but some admit it's part of their 'job' to act nasty. The real bad boys are the living ones.

Evil souls....like....reincarnate too. If Ganondorf reincarnates, I'm sure everyone else does.

Quote

However, the whole "bringing back monsters from the Dark Realm" ado in OoX and AoL makes it seems like the Dark World is some kind of hell equivalent where all baddies go after being killed (only since the time when Ganondorf tainted the Realm). Or think about Ganondorf in OoT bringing Volvagia back to life - maybe from the Evil Realm?
Hey, this would also give a new depth to the line of Laruto in TWW, "Ganon was revived"..

1. the Dark Realm thing in AOL seems to refer to a network of caverns, and probably for OoX too, if they're gonna be the same thing.
2. Ganon wasn't revived, though. He broke out of a seal, and Laruto was probably misinterpreting the old legend.

[Hero of Legend]

Crazy Penguin said

Could you give some examples of where each term is used within Ocarina of Time?

'Yami no Sekai' is used only once; By Zelda after Ganondorf has been sealed. 'Makai' is used during the rest of the game.

MikePetersSucks said

And even still, Hyruleans reincarnate or become ghosts.

How does that affect the existence of an afterlife? Only people with lingering regrets become ghosts in the Zelda series (and they move on when their problems have been solved), and reincarnation seems to be mostly reserved for semi-divine/demonic people.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 September 2006 - 01:10 PM.

[Jumbie]

Crazy Penguin, on Sep 2 2006, 04:16 PM, said:

Thanks, been wanting that information for a while now.

You're welcome. Just ask

Quote

Could you give some examples of where each term is used within Ocarina of Time?

Hero of Legend already did it, but in case you're looking for the exact quotes:

Quote

Rauru: Ancient Creators of Hyrule! Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!! (Japanese term: "Makai")

Sheik: Ganondorf had become the Evil King, and the Sacred Realm became a world of evil. (Japanese term: "Makai")

Zelda: Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! (Japanese term: "Yami no Sekai")

MikePetersSucks, on Sep 2 2006, 07:00 PM, said:

Evil souls....like....reincarnate too. If Ganondorf reincarnates, I'm sure everyone else does.

Non-human monsters and demons as well? 'Cause, that's my point.

Quote

1. the Dark Realm thing in AOL seems to refer to a network of caverns, and probably for OoX too, if they're gonna be the same thing.

You've mixed this up with LoZ.. This is the explanation given on ZL's manual comparison:

Quote

"Underworld" [in AoL's US manual] is a complete misnomer. One might think that this refers to the Underworld from LoZ, but this is not the case. In LoZ, the word for Underworld translates literally to "underground." (Overworld is translated from a word meaning "above ground.") So in LoZ the Underworld is literally underground. But here in AoL, the word given translates to "world of spirits" or "hell." This is the same word used in OoT by Zelda and Rauru when they tell Link what happened to the Sacred Realm when Ganondorf got the Triforce. (In the U.S. version of OoT this translates to "world of evil" or "world filled with evil.") So, it appears, Ganon's army is not being called up from the Underworld, but from the tainted Sacred Realm!

Quote

2. Ganon wasn't revived, though. He broke out of a seal, and Laruto was probably misinterpreting the old legend.

I'm aware of that, but if we went with this new interpretation (that being in the Dark World is a comparable state to being dead), we would have no problem to take Laruto's quote literal. Of course Link wanders between the worlds in ALttP and is well alive, but in many mythologies living people are at times allowed to visit the here-after..

Hero of Legend, on Sep 2 2006, 08:09 PM, said:

How does that affect the existence of an afterlife? Only people with lingering regrets become ghosts in the Zelda series (and they move on when their problems have been solved), and reincarnation seems to be mostly reserved for semi-divine/demonic people.

No, even such nobodies as Tingle, Malon, Talon or the postman are reincarnated in Hyrule, which means that the Goddesses make no picks but send each and everyone on 'one more round'. This in return implies that their souls don't stay in an afterlife for too long, right?

[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie said

No, even such nobodies as Tingle, Malon, Talon or the postman are reincarnated in Hyrule, which means that the Goddesses make no picks but send each and everyone on 'one more round'. This in return implies that their souls don't stay in an afterlife for too long, right?

Nobodies, you say? Haven't all of those people you listed played part in Link's quest, or otherwise aided him? I believe they have. And saying that “each and every one is reincarnated” is, well, a load of bull, as there are numerous people who DON’T return.

Aside, one should never confuse the reappearance of a side character with the plot-driven return of a main character. The FS games use old characters, such as Malon, as a way to appeal to consumers and say “This is still a Zelda game!” However, none of the main Zeldas do this. That is why Malon wasn't in TWW - That is why she isn’t in TP.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 September 2006 - 04:28 PM.

[Jumbie]

Hero of Legend, on Sep 2 2006, 11:28 PM, said:

Nobodies, you say? Haven't all of those people you listed played part in Link's quest, or otherwise aided him?

Of course they helped Link, but that doesn't necessarily save them from being relative minor figures in the overall scheme of things. In fact, what was the historically memorable deed of TMC's postman again?

Quote

And saying that “each and every one is reincarnated” is, well, a load of bull, as there are numerous people who DON’T return.

..Aha, and you know that?! So you can say for sure that the salesman in LoZ can't be the reincarnation of the bazaar keeper in OoT? And you have counted all the restless people that roam the towns in AoL and checked that they can't possibly be reincarnations of the people from ALttP? Don't be silly. We just can't prove who is reincarnated and who not, but to assume that some people will never make a return throughout Hyrule's history for no obvious reason, that's the actual bullshit.

Quote

Aside, one should never confuse the reappearance of a side character with the plot-driven return of a main character. The FS games use old characters, such as Malon, as a way to appeal to consumers and say “This is still a Zelda game!” However, none of the main Zeldas do this. That is why Malon wasn't in TWW - That is why she isn’t in TP.

Nintendo's character recycling customs have no bearing at all on the storyline explanation we may find for the reappearance of certain characters. If Tingle is reincarnated on the level of game mechanics as well as on the storyline level, why can't Syrup the witch be reincarnated on both levels, too?
Also, the true reason why Malon wasn't in TWW is that it would've been slightly idiotic to have a ranch with horses on a tiny island in the sea
And how the hell can you claim Malon won't appear in TP, before the game is even finished? The game will start out in a cowboy-style environment, so there is a chance that other ranches may appear later on in the game. The only reason why Malon could possibly not make a return in TP is in case they've realized that they have overused her by now.

Edited by Jumbie, 02 September 2006 - 06:28 PM.

[Fyxe]

Hero of Legend, on Sep 2 2006, 07:09 PM, said:

'Yami no Sekai' is used only once; By Zelda after Ganondorf has been sealed. 'Makai' is used during the rest of the game.

That seems to imply an even greater connection to ALttP than originally. Imagine if the whole game referred to the tainted Sacred Realm as 'world of spirits' or 'world of evil' and then, at the crux of the game, Zelda calls it the 'Dark World'. That's essentially what she's doing. The player would then go 'aha! It IS the Dark World! It's all set up for ALttP now'.

This is lost upon the US audience, who only see it called 'Evil Realm' every time, which looses the subtle change in terminology that hints at the future.

[Jumbie]

Fyxe, on Sep 3 2006, 01:32 AM, said:

That seems to imply an even greater connection to ALttP than originally. Imagine if the whole game referred to the tainted Sacred Realm as 'world of spirits' or 'world of evil' and then, at the crux of the game, Zelda calls it the 'Dark World'. That's essentially what she's doing. The player would then go 'aha! It IS the Dark World! It's all set up for ALttP now'.
This is lost upon the US audience, who only see it called 'Evil Realm' every time, which looses the subtle change in terminology that hints at the future.

Exactly, and the mistranslated US version of ALttP only adds up to the whole misunderstanding. So it's no wonder that so many people don't realize the obvious connection between OoT and ALttP. (The only wonder is why they won't listen... )

[Fyxe]

They won't listen because...

a - They have their own timeline that they've attached themselves to.

And b - They take everything very literally and every inconsistency with far more seriousness than the designers themselves.

Or c - They claim retconning cos retconning can make even obvious connections just 'go away'.

[Crazy Penguin]

I wouldn't be too sure that characters in the Zelda series are reincarnated in the literal sense. I see it to work the same way as in many cartoons, where characters' ancestors are near-identical to their present day descendants. The main difference in Zelda being that technology, fashion sense and names don't change much through the centuries. And that the Links may not actually be related, but the point remains.

Let us not forget that there was a Zelda sleeping for several centuries or so whilst new ones were popping up. Even when she was awaken the Zelda from the original game must surely have still been around as well.

[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie: Our different arguments both have a chance of being true. You say because we see people reincarnate in some cases, they logically always do so. I would have agreed with this, if not for the fact that Link and Zelda, along with a few others, are stated to be reborn because they are special, and so it would make no sense if everyone was suddenly reincarnated.

I hope TP will clarify this, and perhaps bring an end to this decade long debate.

Also, I promise you Malon won’t be in TP. If she is, I will... Do something horrible to myself. (Feel bad about yourself for making me do this! )

Crazy Penguin said

Let us not forget that there was a Zelda sleeping for several centuries or so whilst new ones were popping up. Even when she was awaken the Zelda from the original game must surely have still been around as well.

Jumbie has a rather neat explanation for that. Myself, I am so boring that I simply blame Nintendo's lack of precognitive ability while simultaneously invoking the awesome power of retconing.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 September 2006 - 02:14 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Sleeping Zelda = Shinentai Myth

[coinilius]

Quote

Also, the true reason why Malon wasn't in TWW is that it would've been slightly idiotic to have a ranch with horses on a tiny island in the sea

Aryll was originally going to be called Maryll (Mararu) as a reference to Marin/Malon - this is still evident in her dress and her affinity with seagulls (Marin references).

[Jumbie]

Crazy Penguin, on Sep 3 2006, 04:00 AM, said:

And that the Links may not actually be related, but the point remains.

I also don't think that all the Links are related. Many take this much too serious and even model their timelines in a way that ensures that certain Links can be blood-related. But in fact, the time between two games is much too long to allow the exact same genes for physical appearance to be passed on.

Quote

Let us not forget that there was a Zelda sleeping for several centuries or so whilst new ones were popping up. Even when she was awaken the Zelda from the original game must surely have still been around as well.

Right. Sleeping Zelda was born much earlier than LoZ Zelda, so SZ must contain the original "Zelda soul". Then again, think of what happened to Link when he drew the Four Sword: his body and soul were split into four. In this special case, the same could've happened to the two Zeldas - both contain one half of the eternal Zelda soul. This would justify LoZ Zelda as the rightful owner of the Triforce of Wisdom, while SZ's mind is asleep during all of LoZ Zelda's life. Now, guess what becomes of the two at the moment Link awakens SZ...

Hero of Legend, on Sep 3 2006, 09:59 AM, said:

I would have agreed with this, if not for the fact that Link and Zelda, along with a few others, are stated to be reborn because they are special.

Why don't you show me that quote? I'm sure we'll be able to.. take care of it

Quote

Also, I promise you Malon won’t be in TP. If she is, I will... Do something horrible to myself. (Feel bad about yourself for making me do this! )

Don't worry, I'm not going to take your bet anyway Odds are against me with an estimated 75% chance that Nintendo (or Capcom?) have learned their lesson about recycling by now.

MikePetersSucks, on Sep 3 2006, 06:43 PM, said:

Sleeping Zelda = Shinentai Myth

Is the theory I've given above also what you had in mind saying Shinentai?

coinilius, on Sep 4 2006, 01:14 AM, said:

Aryll was originally going to be called Maryll (Mararu) as a reference to Marin/Malon - this is still evident in her dress and her affinity with seagulls (Marin references).

..Really? I didn't know that bit about her name, although the seagull thing was of course an obvious hint. Where did you get that info from?

[coinilius]

Jumbie, on Sep 3 2006, 11:49 PM, said:

..Really? I didn't know that bit about her name, although the seagull thing was of course an obvious hint. Where did you get that info from?

From the Zelda Box that was released in Japan.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

Is the theory I've given above also what you had in mind saying Shinentai?

actually yes. In Japanese mythology and new age parapsychology, the consciousness will divide itself to perservere. Hence, if the soul is rendered unable to act (Sleeping Zelda) It splinters off a piece. Usually, the pieces will lack traits that the other lacks. Thus explaining why LOZ Zelda is such a bitch compared to the other Zeldas

[Jumbie]

coinilius, on Sep 4 2006, 02:23 AM, said:

From the Zelda Box that was released in Japan.

I almost guessed that. I've got the whole book downloaded from ZL, but it will take me some time to translate it, especially considering that I don't speak a word of Japanese

MikePetersSucks, on Sep 4 2006, 07:45 PM, said:

actually yes.

Yay! I heard that term Shinentai for the first time yesterday, and still my theory about Sleeping Zelda was based on that concept all along..?! That's not a bad thing, I guess.

Quote

In Japanese mythology and new age parapsychology, the consciousness will divide itself to perservere. Hence, if the soul is rendered unable to act (Sleeping Zelda) It splinters off a piece.

It makes indeed sense for them to "secretly" base their game ideas on Japanese myths. And there we had got everyone saying AoL's backstory was an unblushing 'Sleeping Beauty' rip-off...
So this shows again that it can't harm to explain a certain aspect of Zelda with a simple "It's based on Japanese mythology".

Quote

Usually, the pieces will lack traits that the other lacks.

Makes sense for the concept, but how much of that made it into Zelda? Could we say that for example in Four Swords, the four Links have not the exact same personalities, just like the manga depicts it?

Edited by Jumbie, 04 September 2006 - 04:12 PM.

[Fyxe]

MikePetersSucks, on Sep 4 2006, 06:45 PM, said:

Thus explaining why LOZ Zelda is such a bitch compared to the other Zeldas

Uh, what?

[coinilius]

"THANKS LINK, YOU'RE THE HERO OF HYRULE."

She doesn't sound all that bitchy to me... a bit rough around the edges for a princess, maybe, but not bitchy

Unless you're just talking about the cartoon.

[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie said

Why don't you show me that quote? I'm sure we'll be able to.. take care of it

There is no single quote that I am referring to. Rather, I think it is implied by the fact that Link and Zelda (and a few others) are the only ones ever stated to be reincarnated, and they have that whole destiny thing going on.

Hopefully, we will see in TP.

MikePetersSucks said

In Japanese mythology and new age parapsychology, the consciousness will divide itself to perservere. Hence, if the soul is rendered unable to act (Sleeping Zelda) It splinters off a piece. Usually, the pieces will lack traits that the other lacks.

Hm... That explains a great deal. Both in Zelda and other games.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 05 September 2006 - 02:01 AM.

[Jumbie]

coinilius, on Sep 5 2006, 02:30 AM, said:

She doesn't sound all that bitchy to me... a bit rough around the edges for a princess, maybe, but not bitchy

Hm, that little joke (at least, I took it as one) of MPS has everyone pondering, huh?

Hero of Legend, on Sep 5 2006, 09:01 AM, said:

There is no single quote that I am referring to. Rather, I think it is implied by the fact that Link and Zelda (and a few others) are the only ones ever stated to be reincarnated, and they have that whole destiny thing going on.

Ah ok, so there was never a need for me to worry.

Master of ALttP, on Sep 5 2006, 10:46 PM, said:

Alright, what are you all talking about now? I know I could just read through everything, but I think it'd just be easier if I asked you all. I think that'd also give me a better answer.

Yea, the topic of this thread has changed quite a bit, but that's only because there came no more arguments we had to counter from either you or your pal.
The best thing for you to do is really to read through the whole thing. It may cost some time, but it's definitely worth it since there came up a couple of very interesting points that you should learn of (regarding the Dark World primarily).

Quote

I decided to take a small break from timeline debating. It's all seemed to have died down quite a bit

Of course it has, with all you whirlwinds gone! Time for everyone's poor little stressed-out timeline theories to recover..

Quote

but I'm sure it'll be intense as ever once Twilight Princess comes out in a little more than two months.

Well, you weren't exactly away that long that the general interest in timeline debating would've changed by now..!
Anyway, I don't think TP will explain that much about the overall timeline. To be honest, I don't expect TP to make any references to chronologically following or past games, apart from games of the already known sequence OoT>TP>TWW>PH. This would possibly be references to OoT and maybe hints at events that precede TWW.

Quote

Anyway, if somebody could fill me in on what's going on right now, then I'd really appreciate it.

Okay okay, the last thing was about the issue of Sleeping Zelda (but I just see, the better place to continue this is in the other thread!), before that we talked about reincarnation of the Hyrulean people, before that about if the Dark World is Hell, and so on. Anyway, you'd do much better reading everything yourself, because it's absolutely necessary in case you ever want to continue with your FSA>ALttP debate!

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

Uh, what?

The bitchy cartoon Zelda

Quote

There is no single quote that I am referring to. Rather, I think it is implied by the fact that Link and Zelda (and a few others) are the only ones ever stated to be reincarnated, and they have that whole destiny thing going on.

Kaepora Gaebora

Quote

Makes sense for the concept, but how much of that made it into Zelda? Could we say that for example in Four Swords, the four Links have not the exact same personalities, just like the manga depicts it?

For the Four Swords thing, I always thought so.

As for Zelda, I'd have to make assumptions, because LOZ Zelda has little to no personality, unless you count the cartoon. Zelda could be compared to Sophia of Gnostic myth, who was divided in Higher and Lower Wisdom. The original, whole Zelda had Higher, Spiritual Wisdom straight from the Goddesses while LOZ Zelda might simply just be brainy, since the cartoon Zelda lacks the maturity and spiritual enlightenment the true Zelda possessed.

[coinilius]

MikePetersSucks, on Sep 5 2006, 10:15 PM, said:

The bitchy cartoon Zelda
Kaepora Gaebora
For the Four Swords thing, I always thought so.

As for Zelda, I'd have to make assumptions, because LOZ Zelda has little to no personality, unless you count the cartoon. Zelda could be compared to Sophia of Gnostic myth, who was divided in Higher and Lower Wisdom. The original, whole Zelda had Higher, Spiritual Wisdom straight from the Goddesses while LOZ Zelda might simply just be brainy, since the cartoon Zelda lacks the maturity and spiritual enlightenment the true Zelda possessed.

So what about the Valiant Comics Zelda then?

Edited by coinilius, 05 September 2006 - 06:21 PM.