187 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on Aug 29 2006, 08:10 PM, said:

could you tell us what actually happens to the Dark World after AST? I doubt there are credits to that game, but do we maybe see the overworld palette changing? I hope not..

There is a credits sequence, but it's not a landscape. Basically once you've defeated Ganon you have a short while (13 minutes at most) to fool around, which you can do in the Dark World or Light World indifferently. After that, you'll be escorted to the Master Sword pedestal by Zelda and Sahasrahla, and the game will end.


Personally, I'm one of those who assume the Dark World comes into being when a evil heart seizes the Triforce, so its return in AST puzzles me quite a bit. But then so it did in OoX too.

[LionHarted]

Duke Serkol, on Aug 29 2006, 04:25 PM, said:

Personally, I'm one of those who assume the Dark World comes into being when a evil heart seizes the Triforce, so its return in AST puzzles me quite a bit. But then so it did in OoX too.

OoX uses the same terminology (in the Japanese) used to describe Ganon's return in TWW ("depths", as in, literal depths, under the earth--not above the earth as the Sacred Realm is) and I think it used the same word used as "underworld" in AoL to describe its Dark Realm.

FSA also shows that Dark World portals lead UNDER the ground, while the Sacred Realm is said to be high above the world.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 August 2006 - 04:32 PM.

[Arturo]

The Sacred Realm doesn't transform into the Evil Realm because of an evil man possessing the Triforce, but because of an evil man ENTERING in the Realm.

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The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Aug 29 2006, 04:37 PM, said:

The Sacred Realm doesn't transform into the Evil Realm because of an evil man possessing the Triforce, but because of an evil man ENTERING in the Realm.

Which explains why it is part of the Realm in OoT, ALttP, and KnS, but not FSA.

Besides, FSA's Dark World is UNDER the world, while the Sacred Realm is in the "heavens."

[Arturo]

LionHarted, on Aug 29 2006, 11:38 PM, said:

Besides, FSA's Dark World is UNDER the world, while the Sacred Realm is in the "heavens."

Prove it. Give me quotes.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Aug 29 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

Prove it. Give me quotes.

Deku Scrub said

...we're trying to build an underground road that will let us go anywhere...

[Arturo]

And?

Dekus are not in the Dark World, but in Lost Woods. They need an underground tunnel, becasue they must dislike sunshine. This quote doesn't prove that the Dark World is subterranean.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Aug 29 2006, 05:12 PM, said:

And?

Dekus are not in the Dark World, but in Lost Woods. They need an underground tunnel, becasue they must dislike sunshine. This quote doesn't prove that the Dark World is subterranean.

And they recruit you to help build this road. And you go into the Dark World.

[Arturo]

LionHarted, on Aug 30 2006, 12:14 AM, said:

And they recruit you to help build this road. And you go into the Dark World.

As far as I remember, the road is on Light World, you find it using the shovel.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Aug 29 2006, 05:17 PM, said:

As far as I remember, the road is on Light World, you find it using the shovel.

Is it the road, or their hidden base of operations? I don't remember if they ever actually say what/where the road is.

Unfortunately, there's no text dump to clarify.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 August 2006 - 05:19 PM.

[Arturo]

LionHarted, on Aug 30 2006, 12:19 AM, said:

Is it the road, or their hidden base of operations? I don't remember if they ever actually say what/where the road is.

Unfortunately, there's no text dump to clarify.

Quote

But we're trying to build an
underground road that will
let us go anywhere...

Anyway, we've hidden
every single shovel we
could find!

If there are no holes, no
one will find our road.
We're absolutely brilliant!

Edited by Arturo, 29 August 2006 - 05:23 PM.

[Fyxe]

Ok, now he's so literal that he thinks an 'underground road' means the Dark World.

I think Pinglesworth is just messing with us. o.o

[LionHarted]

Deku Scrubs are not very smart. They could easily be stupid enough to think that shovels could open the Dark World.

Either way, I don't care about this argument anymore.

There is enough to suggest that the portals to the Dark World are probably sealed at the end of FSA (along with all other "darkness"), and that is enough to qualify FSA as a candidate as the prequel to ALttP.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 August 2006 - 05:40 PM.

[Arturo]

LionHarted, on Aug 30 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

Deku Scrubs are not very smart. They could easily be stupid enough to think that shovels could open the Dark World.

Either way, I don't care about this argument anymore.

The problem is that you actually go to that road using a shovel.

LionHarted, on Aug 30 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

There is enough to suggest that the portals to the Dark World are probably sealed at the end of FSA (along with all other "darkness"), and that is enough to qualify FSA as a candidate as the prequel to ALttP.

The darkness repheres, to Ganon, he's sealed inside of the Four Sword. And in ALttP, as far as I remember, Ganon is not inside a stupid sword.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Aug 29 2006, 05:45 PM, said:

The problem is that you actually go to that road using a shovel.

Is the way to the temple the road, though? Not sure. Don't remember.

Don't care anymore.

Quote

The darkness repheres, to Ganon, he's sealed inside of the Four Sword. And in ALttP, as far as I remember, Ganon is not inside a stupid sword.

ALttP doesn't even say that Ganon was sealed. Just that the "magic portals" into the Dark World were.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Aug 29 2006, 11:38 PM, said:

Besides, FSA's Dark World is UNDER the world, while the Sacred Realm is in the "heavens."

.... That's it. Congrats for stepping completely out of your mind..!

Quote

Is it the road, or their hidden base of operations? I don't remember if they ever actually say what/where the road is.

Nobody ever says which of the several holes that Link digs up near the end of the stage the tunnel is, but common sense dictates which one it is.

Fyxe, on Aug 30 2006, 12:32 AM, said:

I think Pinglesworth is just messing with us. o.o

I wish it was so...

Anyway, this eternal "Everyone versus LionHarted" has got me bored by now. Why are we supposed to defend our theory against one person? What's up with the thread starter? Be it as it may, it looks like you won't ever proselytize us, so..

[coinilius]

Quote

OoX uses the same terminology (in the Japanese) used to describe Ganon's return in TWW ("depths", as in, literal depths, under the earth--not above the earth as the Sacred Realm is) and I think it used the same word used as "underworld" in AoL to describe its Dark Realm.

The term used in AoL was 'makai' which translates to 'world of spirits' or 'hell', and is the same term used in OoT to describe the Sacred Realm when it is corrupted. The 'dark world' that you enter through portals and is depicted on the GBA in FSA is refered to using this term, I believe. Level 5, on the otherhand, is refered to in Japan as 'ankoku no sekai' - acording to Zethar-II when he posted here on the subject sometime ago:

Quote

The Dark Realm or whatever is the same one used in the Japanese OoT and LttP. The FSA one (the one you go to with the GBA) seems to also be the same one.

Level five in FSA is "ankoku no sekai" Which is like world of darkness still, but in a slightly different sense.

[Mad Scrub]

LionHarted, on Aug 30 2006, 08:09 AM, said:

Deku Scrubs are not very smart. They could easily be stupid enough to think that shovels could open the Dark World.

Could we keep the Deku Scrub bashing to a minimum please ?

[Jumbie]

coinilius, on Aug 30 2006, 02:34 AM, said:

The term used in AoL was 'makai' which translates to 'world of spirits' or 'hell', and is the same term used in OoT to describe the Sacred Realm when it is corrupted. The 'dark world' that you enter through portals and is depicted on the GBA in FSA is refered to using this term, I believe. Level 5, on the otherhand, is refered to in Japan as 'ankoku no sekai' - acording to Zethar-II when he posted here on the subject sometime ago:

Cool coinilius, you've solved the riddle of the Dark World! I mean, some of you actually had had it solved all the time, but I didn't know that post of Zethar-II. So it's the same name in OoT, ALttP, OoX, FSA and AoL - just like our theories say, and the 5th level of FSA is not meant to mean the same as the Dark World. That's just great, now I can go to bed at more ease.

[Fyxe]

It does mean that 'Dark World' is actually a more general term in Japanese though, so one *might* argue that the 'makai' mentioned in AoL isn't the same makai as that you visit in ALttP.

But it probably is.

[Hero of Legend]

Thing is, there is no 'makai' in ALttP.

Like coinilius said, makai is the Japanese name for the corrupted Sacred Realm, otherwise known as the Evil Realm, a name quite different from that of the 'Dark World' ('Yami no Sekai'). Of course, the Japanese version of OoT does use both names to describe the Sacred Realm, so yeah.

However, the same thing can not be said for AoL’s makai, which I would assume is a more generic hell-like place where Ganon’s demonic followers come from.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 August 2006 - 03:05 PM.

[Fyxe]

Yami no Sekai seems very similar to Ankoku no Sekai. What do Yami and Ankoku mean?

Is it 'World of Darkness' and 'Land of Darkness'? I assume that's the difference.

If the Dark World is the only thing ever called 'makai' in Zelda games, I think we should assume that the Dark World is the same makai the other games refer to. Unless the makai in FSA is hell itself, which it's even less likely to be.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yami and Ankoku both mean darkness. It's the context around them that matters.

[Hero of Legend]

Fyxe said

If the Dark World is the only thing ever called 'makai' in Zelda games, I think we should assume that the Dark World is the same makai the other games refer to. Unless the makai in FSA is hell itself, which it's even less likely to be.

No no, you got it backwards.

Yami no Sekai = Dark World
Makai = Evil Realm = ('hell')

Also, note that the name for the "Evil Realm" in OoT probably originated from the fact that Ganondorf became the 'devil' (Translated by NOA as "King of Evil/Evil King") when he obtained the ToP. Therefore, OoT's makai probably has nothing to do with AoL's makai.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 August 2006 - 05:37 PM.

[Fyxe]

There's only one mahou (devil) and makai (hell) in Zelda. Those names are vague anyway. As far as we know, if Ganon is the 'devil' (or 'demon king' is an accurate translation of mahou) then the Dark World is the only makai we know of. That was my point.

Therefore it's likely that any reference to 'makai' is the same 'makai' mentioned in OoT, therefore the Dark World.

[Hero of Legend]

But Nintendo intentionally differentiated the two names. Saying that they are the same because we only know of one evil place is like saying that "Ankoku no Sekai" is THE Dark World...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 August 2006 - 06:23 PM.

[Jumbie]

Hero of Legend, on Sep 1 2006, 01:22 AM, said:

But Nintendo intentionally differentiated the two names. Saying that they are the same because we only know of one evil place is like saying that "Ankoku no Sekai" is THE Dark World...

All we know is that the Evil Realm changed into the Dark World after the end of OoT, but what exactly was changed in it, is unknown. Our best guesses are that Evil Realm and Dark World are very similar things, so similar in fact that they can be equated without doing major harm to the storyline.

Quote

However, the same thing can not be said for AoL’s makai, which I would assume is a more generic hell-like place where Ganon’s demonic followers come from.

Quote

Also, note that the name for the "Evil Realm" in OoT probably originated from the fact that Ganondorf became the 'devil' (Translated by NOA as "King of Evil/Evil King") when he obtained the ToP. Therefore, OoT's makai probably has nothing to do with AoL's makai.

I still see no reason to separate the Evil Realms/Dark Worlds in all 5 games they've appeared in from each other.
Why don't we ever consider the religious aspect of Sacred Realm and Evil Realm? If Ganon's title "King of Evil" is used to say "devil" in Japanese, shouldn't Ganon be associated with the religious concept of devil? Of course, Satan was a fallen angel whereas Ganondorf was a mere human, but still both of them started off as beings minor to God(desses). And Ganon is the constant nemesis of Hyrule, after all.

[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie said

All we know is that the Evil Realm changed into the Dark World after the end of OoT, but what exactly was changed in it, is unknown. Our best guesses are that Evil Realm and Dark World are very similar things, so similar in fact that they can be equated without doing major harm to the storyline.

Zelda names the Evil Realm the "Dark World" after Ganondorf has been sealed, so there is no doubt they are the same thing - In OoT.

Quote

I still see no reason to separate the Evil Realms/Dark Worlds in all 5 games they've appeared in from each other.

So you're saying they had thought of the Dark World when they made AoL? I doubt it.

Quote

Why don't we ever consider the religious aspect of Sacred Realm and Evil Realm? If Ganon's title "King of Evil" is used to say "devil" in Japanese, shouldn't Ganon be associated with the religious concept of devil? Of course, Satan was a fallen angel whereas Ganondorf was a mere human, but still both of them started off as beings minor to God(desses). And Ganon is the constant nemesis of Hyrule, after all.

Devils exist in other mythologies too, you know...

But yeah, I did consider religious aspects when I said the Sacred Realm turned into “hell” when Ganondorf entered it, because he was the devil. Of course, “hell” is not some burning hellhole (for lack of better a word), and Ganondorf isn’t Satan, although Rauru refers to him as the “Ancient Incarnation of Darkness” so I guess he really is evil personified...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 August 2006 - 06:56 PM.

[Fyxe]

Hero of Legend, on Sep 1 2006, 12:22 AM, said:

But Nintendo intentionally differentiated the two names. Saying that they are the same because we only know of one evil place is like saying that "Ankoku no Sekai" is THE Dark World...

You said yourself that makai was used as a word for the Dark World alongside Yami no Sekai in OoT, didn't you? That's what I meant. If makai also means Dark World, and the Dark World is the only makai in Zelda we know of, it's not far to assume that whenever they say makai they mean the Dark World. It'd just be confusing, otherwise...

No, they hadn't thought of the Dark World in AoL, but in creating a makai in the mythology of Zelda they have since defined what that makai is - the Dark World. A little bit of retconning but not much. All they did was define it.

'Mahou' should not be confused with a religious thing at all. It's a 'demon king'. If required, Japan's mythology can have MANY demon kings.

Jumbie, the Evil Realm didn't change into the Dark World. They're the same thing. Did you mean Sacred Realm? If so, we do know what changed it. It began to change as Ganondorf entered it. I think Rauru or someone says this. Basically, Ganon turns it into a 'makai'.

[Jumbie]

Hero of Legend, on Sep 1 2006, 01:51 AM, said:

Devils exist in other mythologies too, you know...

Sure I know, but I was too lazy to give more examples other than the most well-known.

Quote

Of course, “hell” is not some burning hellhole (for lack of better a word), and Ganondorf isn’t Satan, although Rauru refers to him as the “Ancient Incarnation of Darkness” so I guess he really is evil personified...

But what if we took it to another level: Sacred Realm = "Heaven" of TloZ, Dark World = "Hell" of TLoZ? I mean, with all the afterlife aspects to it?

Fyxe, on Sep 1 2006, 02:12 AM, said:

'Mahou' should not be confused with a religious thing at all. It's a 'demon king'. If required, Japan's mythology can have MANY demon kings.

They made your thought pretty clear with the Western name, King of Evil/Darkness. But then again, Zelda is a wild mixture of Japanese and Western mythology, so we can't really say what connotation the developers actually intended to give...

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Jumbie, the Evil Realm didn't change into the Dark World. They're the same thing. Did you mean Sacred Realm?

No, I did mean Evil Realm, but I was extra-careful because of what Hero of Legend said Also, the Evil Realm is desrcibed as a void, and only later as the Dark World it actually contains a ground to walk on (that's at least what some people believe based on in-game quotes, I personally am not entirely sure).