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#61 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 05:00 PM

The living people in ALttP are not called Hylian. They are only said to have some Hylian ancestors.


Ok, humans who lived 1000 years ago (just an example) are our ancestors as well. Does that mean we're no longer human like they were. We may be different in what we're aqcuanted with and live by, but we're still human like they were.

#62 Hero of Slime

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 05:13 PM

Thats a little different, Human is a species but hylian is only an ethnic group. In reality there are some ancient ethnic groups that are no longer around today. Plus in ALttP they never call the living people Hylians.

#63 Fatgoron

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 06:23 PM

Triforceless

That's only a problem if you believe he didn't have the ToP at that point. The bright glowing triangle on the back of his hand throughout the final battle, after the wish was made, seems to suggest otherwise though.

#64 Doopliss

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 06:51 PM

Even if the creators intended the Imprisoning War to be OoT the facts that Tri-Enforcer has presented us prove they aren't the same event. If the creators intended something, but the games provide enough information to prove it wrong it should't be taken into account because the game itself has more weight than the creator's intentions.

#65 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 06:57 PM

Thats a little different, Human is a species but hylian is only an ethnic group. In reality there are some ancient ethnic groups that are no longer around today. Plus in ALttP they never call the living people Hylians.


In LTTP they really don't refer to themselves as anything, so one would assume Hylian. Also Hylian are not an ethnic group, they're a race.

That's only a problem if you believe he didn't have the ToP at that point. The bright glowing triangle on the back of his hand throughout the final battle, after the wish was made, seems to suggest otherwise though.



We see with our own eyes the Triforce being assembled and wished upon, and doing what the wisher (the Nohansen) has asked. That wouldn't happen if Ganon still had the ToP to himself.

#66 Hero of Slime

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 07:40 PM

In LTTP they really don't refer to themselves as anything, so one would assume Hylian. Also Hylian are not an ethnic group, they're a race.


The way that the Hylian Race is taked about in ALttP by the living people suggests the Hylians were a different race than the present people.

Hylian can be both a race and an ethnic group.

#67 Doopliss

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 07:45 PM

I think it's a variety among the human species because they are born with magical powers that other humans don't have.

#68 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 07:57 PM

Like I said before there really wasn't any difference between the people in LTTP and OOT. They all had similar attributes, with some being skilled in magic and some were not. There was no difference between the powers of OOT Zelda and LTTP Zelda, they both were clairvoyant and telepathic.

#69 Doopliss

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 08:05 PM

But the Zelda from AlttP was a descendant from the sages of the IW, and Zelda from Ocarina of Time had powers before she was awakened as a sage (even if we don't know from who she descends), while the one from ALttP seems to always have known that she had powers, so we don't really know if the one from ALttP was a Hylian.

#70 Hero of Slime

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 08:12 PM

We know Zelda from ALttP is part Hylian. Therefore, all the other Zeldas would also be part Hylian.

#71 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 08:31 PM

All this still aknowledges that the people of in LTTP are still Hylian, that goes for the maidens, the royal family and of course Link.

#72 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 08:44 PM

Even if the creators intended the Imprisoning War to be OoT the facts that Tri-Enforcer has presented us prove they aren't the same event. If the creators intended something, but the games provide enough information to prove it wrong it should't be taken into account because the game itself has more weight than the creator's intentions.


Well I guess Tri-Enforcer and Doopliss must be right and Ocarina of Time's script director and character designer must be wrong.

Furthermore the origin of Spider-Man story in Spectacular Spider-Man magazine #2 can't be the same event as the origin of Spider-Man in Amazing Fantasy #15 because some of the details don't match up. Stan Lee wrote both of them, but what the heck does he know. Peter Parker must've become Spider-Man twice. He must've had two uncle Bens as well.

#73 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:19 PM

I'm not saying the creators are wrong, but looking at the trend in the Zelda related games that have come out since OOT (along with the inconsitencies) it would seem they're going in a different direction with this. Creators do this. You see what they did with the graphics shown at Space World 2000 compared to the graphics they came out with in the TWW. Yeah...yeah...you could say you can't compare that to a storyline element, but that was still a huge change. Creators know that when show fans something, they're expecting it and when you tell them something, fans will expect it. Now, people hold imagery in games to be critical elements, if Nintendo can change something like that --knowing it may or may not disappoint everyone--they can certainly switch views on how the storyline can be unfolded.

#74 Doopliss

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:23 PM

That is different because it was literally a mistake. But the fact that some events from the IW don't match with OoT can't be said to be a mistake because those discrepancies can be fixed. What I mean is that the creators intended for the Imprisoning War and OoT to be the same, but they couldn't do as they wished and the result suggests otherwise, but there is no mistake in the games.

#75 Fyxe

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:27 PM

You clearly have no concept of how game design works in the real world...

Thank goodness for Crazy Penguin's sanity on this subject, ironic as that may be.

#76 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:31 PM

You clearly have no concept of how game design works in the real world...

Thank goodness for Crazy Penguin's sanity on this subject, ironic as that may be.


You leech on to anyone who agrees with you for your own convenience. It's insanity to ignore the issue at hand and completely write it off for your own convenience.

#77 Doopliss

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:36 PM

I do know how it works, but that is irrelevant in this case because the reasons Tri-Enforcer has exposed to prove that the Imprisoning War and OoT aren't the same thing are enough to ignore for this time the creators' intentions or to think that they changed their plans when they produced more games in this case. I think it's more important to consider the facts that the game themselves offer than what the creators intended in case that they don't match.

#78 Hero of Slime

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:37 PM

I think the game's creator's timeline can change. They said OoT was the Imprisoning War over 6 years ago, but that does not mean that they think it now.

#79 Fyxe

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:43 PM

And you fling out insults whatever I say on the matter, because you can't stand having your own little bubble of belief at all damaged.

Listen, you can't say that with the release of one game (Wind Waker), they suddenly changed the ENTIRE timeline of the whole series, suddenly moving OoT to the opposite end of the timeline than they ever intended, and moving ALttP to right near the very start.

Your timeline ruins ALL the references to LoZ and AoL in ALttP, all the obvious connections to ALttP in OoT, merely for the sake of one game.

I can assure you, Nintendo has not destroyed the very basics of a fairly simple timeline just for the sake of one game. They have not reordered the whole series all of a sudden, just because you said so.

Your timeline has just as many inconsistencies as the basic timeline, and some truely glaring ones. And they can't be explained away for the sake of good game design, because you believe for some reason that Nintendo puts a huge amount of thought into the timeline and actually bothers reordering it just to release a new game.

Doopliss, Tri-Enforcer has proved nothing. Everyone has known about the inconsistencies for awhile. It means fuck all, they're still extremely minor when you compare the similarities, the clear references to ALttP in OoT (Ganon's final line, for example), and the quotes from people directly involved in script and character design.

#80 Hero of Slime

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:47 PM

Your timeline ruins ALL the references to LoZ and AoL in ALttP

When does ALttP make references to LoZ and AoL? I don't remember any of these allusions.

#81 Doopliss

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:48 PM

Actually, most of the timeline wasn't thought by any of the creators, the people like us are the ones who have been investigating about it, so most of it was created unconsciously.

#82 Fyxe

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:51 PM

The entire backstory of ALttP is explaining the existence of both Ganon and the Triforce, neither of which had an origin until then. In the Japanese manual the reference that this is how the Ganon the readers know of came to be is directly pointed out.

You'd have to be blind not to see that ALttP was a direct prequel to the first games.

#83 Doopliss

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:55 PM

They could be the same Ganon, though, or Ganondorf from OoT could be a reincarnation of him, how could he have known about the Sacred Realm and how to get there?

#84 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 11:59 PM

 
Your timeline has just as many inconsistencies as the basic timeline, and some truely glaring ones. And they can't be explained away for the sake of good game design, because you believe for some reason that Nintendo puts a huge amount of thought into the timeline and actually bothers reordering it just to release a new game

You know...what we haven't really spoken about the the problems with my timeline. You care to elaborate on those. Before you do so..be warned I'm heavily armed. What references between LTTP and NES Zeldas does my timeline destroy? All that was said about LTTP in realtion to those two games, is that LTTP comes before them and nothing more is elaborated on that. Well lets look at my timeline....hmmme...it looks like LTTP is still before them.

because you believe for some reason that Nintendo puts a huge amount of thought into the timeline and actually bothers reordering it just to release a new game



well you got it all figured out now, don't ya...? oh well lets close up shop...that's the end of debating the storyline, might want to break it to Davo and Khuffie softly.

#85 Fyxe

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 12:01 AM

*Smacks herself in the head*

Yes, by all means, lets ignore all the important stuff, arbitrary queries are all that matter.

OH NO, TRI-ENFORCER IS HEAVILY ARMED.

Seriously, drop that kind of crap, alright? How much bigger can your ego get, anyway? You're acting like some kind of timeline messiah.

#86 Nevermind

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 12:25 AM

To be perfectly honest I don't think you can really fit all of the games into a single timeline. I'm really doubting that there was this one gigantic, epic vision that all of the game stories adhered to.

It was probably more like "Hey that's pretty cool, and it fits, let's add it in."

Which moved to "Hmm, maybe we should explain that bit we added. Hell, we can go and make another game that could incorporate it."

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

Everyone comes up with a timeline theory and claims it's right, but the day that Miyamoto comes and sits down, and presents a gigantic portfolio outling the entire history of Hyrule and it's people and every little thing that happens within all of the games, then I don't think anyone can really say that their timeline IS right. More, that it is 'most likely' right.

#87 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 12:43 AM

*Smacks herself in the head*

Yes, by all means, lets ignore all the important stuff, arbitrary queries are all that matter.

OH NO, TRI-ENFORCER IS HEAVILY ARMED.

Seriously, drop that kind of crap, alright? How much bigger can your ego get, anyway? You're acting like some kind of timeline messiah.



Fyxe, I just ask why..that's all I do...I'm inlcined to doing so.

#88 Nevermind

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 12:52 AM

Wow....no wonder MJ wanted out of this place...




Dude....harsh.

Who the hell runs this place, anyway?

#89 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 12:56 AM

Everyone comes up with a timeline theory and claims it's right, but the day that Miyamoto comes and sits down, and presents a gigantic portfolio outling the entire history of Hyrule and it's people and every little thing that happens within all of the games, then I don't think anyone can really say that their timeline IS right. More, that it is 'most likely' right.



You're right...there is no right or wrong timeline. I feel like I'm being bashed for having a timeline that's different form the the majority. By the same token we should still share ideas, and not bash each other for being different in opinion.

#90 Fatgoron

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 07:02 PM

We see with our own eyes the Triforce being assembled and wished upon, and doing what the wisher (the Nohansen) has asked. That wouldn't happen if Ganon still had the ToP to himself.

By that same line of reasoning Link shouldn't have had the ToC in OoT, since Ganondorf made a wish on/touched the triforce during it.
We see the ToP glowing on the back of Ganondorf's hand during the final battle in WW. It's either there because he has the ToP, or it's there for no reason whatsoever.




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