174 replies to this topic

[Crazy Penguin]

But who's to say that the entire Zelda series doesn't happen over tens or hundreds of thousands of years?

[Tri-Enforcer]

It's not clear how many years may go by in between games and other events in the Zelda storyline. In this case, with the time lapse between SZ and AoL, one would imagine that a great deal of time has passed by. Especially if you consider that there was a different language at the time of SZ. By the time of AoL it was an obsolete language. It takes a very long time for a region to pick up a new language, while the prior one becomes lost or rare.

It may not be entirely necessary to put a game or games inbetween SZ and LoZ/AoL, including those that don't involve the Triforce. (Not that I'm against it) But it would be nice if they had a game that mentions how Ganon returned, which allowed him to steal the ToP again by the start of LoZ.

[Fatgoron]

The Triforce was already split by the time the final battle started with Ganon in OOT. It split when Ganon touched it, after Link allowed him access to the Sacred Realm. The ToC was hidden within Link during his 7 year sleep. The Triforce is not even whole during or after the final battle in OOT. Whereas in TWW, the Triforce is whole at the start of the battle, then Nohansen makes his wish...the final battle ensues but the Triforce is still whole, thus Ganon doesn't have the ToP (or any Triforce part) on him at the end of TWW. We even see the Triforce whole for a short period of time after Ganon was defeated, in TWW. Basically, I'm saying there's a clear distinction in the state of the Triforce between the final battles in OOT and TWW.

The triforc splits and flies off in three different directions before Ganon attacks Link and Tetra during the final battle. It's split during the battle.

[Fyxe]

Alright, we need to sort this out for good. Someone needs to check a few things...

1 - After Link gets the Triforce of Courage, does it appear on his hand during gameplay at any point other than cutscenes?

2 - Does the Triforce of Wisdom appear on Zelda's hand outside of cutscenes *before* the final battle?

3 - Does the Triforce of Wisdom and Power appear on the hands of Zelda and Ganon during the final battle? Same for Link.

4 - Do they appear during the final cutscenes (does Ganon have it when he's defeated, do our heros still have their pieces before they leave)?

If 2 is the case, then 3 might not matter, unless Link has it in 3. However, if 4 is the case, then we can only assume they still all have their pieces.

[Tri-Enforcer]

The triforc splits and flies off in three different directions before Ganon attacks Link and Tetra during the final battle. It's split during the battle.

Ok, they probably do I vaguely remember that part, but that still doesn't really mean much in terms of Ganon getting the ToP back, at the end of TWW. However I clearly remember this, we SEE the Triforce parts leaving the bodies of Zelda, Link, and Ganon before the final battle, then Nohansen makes his wish...but we don't see the Triforce parts go back inside any of them, it just splits in the air and the parts go their merry way.

Fyxe that's something that will have to be checked into indeed, but even if they all still show the mark, I think this explanation me and Lazurukeel spoke about a little earlier in this thread could explain this:

I was thinking pretty much the same thing. The Triforce parts correspond to what the holder wants most (this is a canon fact by the way). Ganon desired power the most, so he retained power when it split on him in OOT's past. Zelda is more inclined to wisdom, and of course courage to Link. Perhaps once a Triforce part leaves a person, as long as the person lives, the Triforce mark may resonate off and on as an indicator that the former holder once held a part, or would be the most likely holder.

Yeah I agree with that except for the bit about what they want. I always thought it was more a reflection of what was in their nature, as in the best candidate to represent each piece, which is kind of the same I guess. Yeah, as long as said candidate lives, then they still are the best representation of the piece of the Triforce, whether it is split or not. If it is not, then they represent it, if it is then they HAVE it.

[Fyxe]

Unfortunately that's fanfic. The only reason we have for the crest appearing in OoT and WW (ignoring the crests in other games, they're different) is that the ones with the crest hold a piece of the Triforce (and the brightest piece on the crest shows this).

Anything else is fanfic. We must assume that if they have the crest, they have their piece. Especially if they left them in on the final cutscenes, after the king has made his wish. If they appear in-battle that could be more down to the character models not being changed, and if Zelda had it during gameplay earlier that could support this. But if they have them during the final scenes, that's a bit harder to argue against.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I just call it like I see it. We see the Triforce parts literally leaving their bodies. If they can show us a scene in which the Triforce parts leave their bodies, then they would've shown a scene with the parts going back inside them, but this is not shown. What is shown are the parts leaving...coming together...wished upon...then split away seperately. If the parts returned to their bodies then it would've been shown. Now, all that is canon because that is what we see. Why show one thing and not the other? My previous fanfic explantion would help explain why their hands are still glowing without resorting say, "It must of been a technical flaw." (which it probably was)

[Fyxe]

At the same time, we also see their crests vanish as the Triforce parts leave, I believe. Don't they? I thought they did, but of course I may be wrong. This would be a vital piece of information.

There is NOTHING to suggest that the crests are anything to do with anything more than merely possessing a piece of the Triforce. Until we check exactly when the characters do and do not have the crests, I don't think we should make any judgements, and we certainly shouldn't resort to fanfic.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I don't know...all I know is what I saw. If an item is taken away from me, the only way I can get it back is if I go get it or if it is given back to me. I know this is fantasy and all, but that's just logical.

[Hero of Slime]

My question is, why would the Triforce split up after the wish was made? If the King did not have a balanced heart the Triforce would have split before he could make the wish.

[Nevermind]

I don't think the crests appearing in and out of cutscenes has anything to do with storyline Fyxe. That's all coding stuff there. I'm thinking they just had the models of characters, and only animated the triforces on their hands during cutscenes. And I'm think, myself, that their possession of said pieces was meant to be ASSUMED whether or not it appeared outside of a cutscene or not.

As for the final cutscene, I'm not sure if they are there or not, but I'm also thinking that the main cutscenes in which the triforce pieces were the subject, is where they were meant to make an impact, and after seeing that, only a very scrutinising audience would look for them in every other cutscene, which would most likely not be the intention of the developers.

Take note, also, that Link has the piece on his hand in that final image of him going back to her garden.

[Tri-Enforcer]

My question is, why would the Triforce split up after the wish was made? If the King did not have a balanced heart the Triforce would have split before he could make the wish.

Good question. Maybe, King Nohansen had it split. The AoL backstory made it a canon fact that the Triforce can be split by someone who bears the Triforce. In the AoL backstory the king "maintained the peace in Hyrule using the Triforce". This indicates that the king (not to be confused with King Nohansen) of that time controlled the Triforce. The king in AoL backstory said he kept the ToP and ToW in the kingdom, while he hid the ToC elsewhere. All this indicates to me that the bearer of the Triforce can split or hide the Triforce as he or she pleases.

So there are two canon scenarios in which the Triforce usually splits.

1) In OOT the Triforce split due to Ganon having an unbalanced heart. This shows the bearer in this case, has no control over the Triforce splitting.

2) In the AoL backstory, the king seperated the Triforce willingly, for protection from evil.

[Doopliss]

At the same time, we also see their crests vanish as the Triforce parts leave, I believe. Don't they? I thought they did, but of course I may be wrong. This would be a vital piece of information.

There is NOTHING to suggest that the crests are anything to do with anything more than merely possessing a piece of the Triforce. Until we check exactly when the characters do and do not have the crests, I don't think we should make any judgements, and we certainly shouldn't resort to fanfic.

Hmm, but the crest also appears in AoL because Link is destined to possess it, so maybe, since it split, Zelda, Link and Ganondorf where the only ones who could possess the parts of the Triforce. Anyaway, we need to check if they have it during the battle.

As Tri-Enforcer said, it could have split because the king desired it, or maybe he was already dead, though there is no evidence for that, except that the Essence of the Triforce says that the Triforce will serve the owner as he/she lives.

I think that a good way to explain why Hyrule's tongue changed is because of the flood.

[Fyxe]

I think it's obvious that possessing the Triforce allows the wielder to have each part seperate if need be. In the Oracle games the Triforce is shown as three seperate triangles in Hyrule Castle. In the AoL backstory the Triforce pieces are never even talked about as being together.

As for the Triforce splitting at the end of WW, this may merely be to show that it's acting upon the wish of the king. Maybe when each part flies away, they vanish and return to Link, Zelda and Ganon. Who knows.

Laz, if the crests disappear when Ganon is removing each piece of the Triforce, then there's no logical reason why the crests would appear during the final cutscene unless they wanted them to be there. If they appear during the battle this may be down to a more technical standpoint, but cutscenes are a little different.

Seriously, someone needs to check. It wouldn't take long if someone has a save near the final battle. I'd check myself but I only saved after beating the 'flashback' bosses, and didn't save throughout the whole final section.

Also, Doopliss, you've got the reason for AoL's crest appearing incorrect. It actually had nothing to do with the Triforce, it was merely to show that Link possessed the traits that the king thought was needed. It was due to the king's spell, not to do with the Triforce.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Oh sure, i could check that for ya Fyxe. I have a saved file right before puppet ganon. So what exactly do you want me to check? (sorry i didnt bother reading the rest of the pages because im kinda busy)

[Fyxe]

1 - After Link gets the Triforce of Courage, does it appear on his hand during gameplay at any point other than cutscenes? (Just check anytime during gameplay for the crest)

2 - Does the Triforce of Wisdom appear on Zelda's hand outside of cutscenes *before* the final battle?

3 - Does the Triforce of Wisdom and Power appear on the hands of Zelda and Ganon during the final battle? Same for Link.

4 - Do they appear during the final cutscenes (does Ganon have it when he's defeated, do our heros still have their pieces before they leave)?

Ignore point 2, you can't check that.

But also...

5 - When Ganon removes the Triforce pieces, do their crests also disappear during the cutscene?

[Mystic Kitsune]

Alrighty, ill check into that as soon as i get offline. Ill post my report in this thread.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Fyxe) In the AoL backstory the Triforce pieces are never even talked about as being together.

The following statements clearly show that the Triforce was whole before the king in the AoL backstory died.

It is said that a long time ago, when Hyrule was one country, a great ruler maintained the peace in Hyrule using the Triforce...

.....You who'll control the Triforce of the future. I shall hand down to you the secrets of the Triforce. There are three kinds of Triforce - Power, Wisdom, and Courage. When these three are brought together, the Triforce will show its maximum power. Of the three, I have left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom. but the Triforce Courage I have hidden for a reason.

Those quotes clearly show that the Triforce pieces were together at some point during the AoL backstory. This is the king who has possession of it at that time. Once again this shows that the bearer can seperate the parts as they please, to ensure the Triforce's safety.

[Fyxe]

Actually, that's wrong, just because he possessed all the pieces doesn't mean he joined them together. It's likely he did, all I'm saying is that the Triforce pieces do not HAVE to be joined together.

In fact, other than the crest, it wasn't until ALttP that we saw the three pieces of the Triforce joined together in such a fashion.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Actually, that's wrong, just because he possessed all the pieces doesn't mean he joined them together. It's likely he did, all I'm saying is that the Triforce pieces do not HAVE to be joined together.

In fact, other than the crest, it wasn't until ALttP that we saw the three pieces of the Triforce joined together in such a fashion.

The king in the AoL backstory USED the Triforce to maintain the piece. Go back and read that part. If the Triforce parts are not joined together, then he wouldn't even possesse them. They would end up splitting on him probably. Only a worthy person can possesse all three pieces at once, and in order for the Triforce to be used to 'maintain the peace', it would have to be joined together.

*I noticed that you replaced "rubbish" with "wrong"...but that's cool though.*

[Fyxe]

I realise saying everything's rubbish all the time might come across as too personally offensive, although it's never intended that way.

Hold it. Who says the Triforce has to be joined to be used? As long as one possesses each piece, they can use it. Joining them seems a mere formality. In the Oracle games it's seperate and transports Link to wherever anyway.

Presumably they join mainly so you can wish on them. But even so, nothing ever says that the king ever wished upon the Triforce, merely that he used it's abilities to maintain a peaceful and prosperous kingdom. Link uses his courage to face Ganon, Zelda uses her wisdom to aid Link and Hyrule, and Ganon uses his power to attack Hyrule. These are all abilities seperate to the whole wishing thing.

We're never sure if the king ever used the Triforce's maximum power anyway. For all we know he used just Wisdom and Power and didn't trust himself to use Courage.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Sorry to interupt, but heres the results.

During gameplay, the triforce crest is not visible, i checked both hands and saw no sign or whatsoever during both day and night.

During the final Cutscenes, zelda's crestis visible, so is ganons, and link's. Although during the puppet ganon cutscene he didnt have the trifoce symbol on his hand.

When actually fighting Ganon, zelda still has it visible on her hand, but both link and ganon dont have it. But then when you do the attack, thus placing the sword in ganon's head, he does have the triforce...

When Ganon is removing the triforce, zelda still has it, i couldnt see link's hand, because his head was blocking the way, and ganon's hand was facing the other way, so i couldnt see that either. But when the King Nohansen is talking about his wish to the triforce, it shows zelda for a second, and she still has the symbol.

When leaving, nobody (zelda and link) has the triforce symbol.

Hope you found that helpful, and tell me if i missed something, because my notes are out of order.

[Tri-Enforcer]

@Fyxe

You possesse all three parts, but you can't use the Triforce's full power? Usually if someone accesses the whole Triforce but can't use it's full power would imply that person has an unbalanced heart...and what happened the last time a person with an imbalanced heart touched the Triforce--it split on him (Ganon in OOT). Leaving him with only the part that corresponded to his heart--power. If you're not worthy to use the Triforce's full power, then you can't possesse all three parts at one time.

[Fyxe]

It doesn't necessarily mean the king was unbalanced, and for all we know the split only occurs once (after all, Ganon can regain his missing pieces without it splitting once more).

But yes, even if the Triforce trusted him (and for all we know, it didn't, he could of just aquired each piece seperately), it doesn't mean the king trusted himself.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's very possible the king did use the whole Triforce, but we don't know that for sure.

It's really interesting that Ganon doesn't have the crest during the Puppet Ganon sequence and during the fight, but that he does have it during the final cutscene. Hmm.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Oh, i think you heard me wrong, during the cutscene before puppet ganon, ganon does have it (did i forget to include that?) and i couldnt see zelda's, and for sure link didnt have it.

[Fyxe]

I see. I remember Ganon having it before Puppet Ganon, I thought you meant immediately after you beat Puppet Ganon. No matter.

Well, during gameplay it may be that the model they use for Zelda always has the crest. We'd need someone to check whether she has it during gameplay earlier, after she first becomes Zelda. I have a feeling she has it then, which is why she has it during the battle.

However, that doesn't explain why Ganon has the Triforce crest when he's being defeated. Was it visible on Link and Zelda during Ganon's defeat?

[Mystic Kitsune]

Nope, i double checked that one, zelda didnt have it at that point, neither did link. When Ganon turned to stone, it wasnt visible on him at that point. Although it was before he turned to stone. I think its more of a programming thing than anything else.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Nope, i double checked that one, zelda didnt have it at that point, neither did link. When Ganon turned to stone, it wasnt visible on him at that point. Although it was before he turned to stone. I think its more of a programming thing than anything else.

I think so too. It just doesn't make sense why at certain times in the battle we see a mark here,, then a mark there, but not a mark here, or a mark there.

[Fyxe]

By 'before he turned to stone', you mean when Link has delivered the final blow but before Ganon begins to turn to stone?

[Mystic Kitsune]

Yeah, thats exactly what i meant.