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tMC and FS are the first two


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#211 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 05:13 PM

Yes, but that means they're still the same thing.


I don't think we can be too sure of that. I'm not ruling out the possibility, it does seem very likely, but still not something that has been confirmed (unless I'm missing something here).

#212 Zythe

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 05:18 PM

OK, that's fine and I know what you mean "Nothing is certain" but then, if you take HA to be the retconned LttP BS or at least part of it, then of course, you can still assume another group of sages arose later without reeking of fish.

#213 Fyxe

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 06:40 PM

There's no real background about the Maidens in FSA, which might lead us to assume they are decendants of the Seven Sages in some form or other, but they are still not sages themselves. They are maidens. So there would need to be a seperate bunch of Seven Sages who show up from somewhere to make it work as a backstory, and even then it doesn't work. Why would they seal Ganon in the FS THEN seal him in the Sacred Realm? That's like going 'hmm, we've got all the evils in the world locked up in Pandora's Box. Now, just incase it opens, why don't we take the box and put it in the same place where the greatest power ever known lies'.

It's not just bizarre. It's plain moronic.

Even if it's retconned, it still doesn't make any sense. There's no talk of the Triforce in FSA. The whole point of ALttP's backstory was that Ganondorf accidentally discovered the gateway to the Sacred Realm and got the Triforce. In FSA, the Sacred Realm is already the Dark World. You can't seal him, THEN shove him in the Sacred Realm for kicks. It's just messed up.

Also I'd take issue with the Imprisoning War being retconned *twice*. First it was done in OoT, far more accurately I might add and with actual quotes from designers to suggest it was intended to be the Imprisoning War.

Then they do it again, switch everything around, remove the Triforce from the whole story, seal Ganon completely differently and the ONLY reason people think it's the Imprisoning War is because there are some bloody Knights of Hyrule (of some form or other) that showed up. Yet nobody thinks it's a retelling of ALttP just because it has Maidens in it, do they? Or a retelling of OoT because Malon shows up?

Other than *some* Knights of Hyrule (nothing to say they're the SAME Knights of Hyrule, nobody really thinks the Maidens are the same ones, after all) making an appearance and Ganon being sealed in some form or other, there are no outward similarities in plot to the Imprisoning War.

#214 SOAP

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 07:15 PM

There's no real background about the Maidens in FSA, which might lead us to assume they are decendants of the Seven Sages in some form or other, but they are still not sages themselves. They are maidens. So there would need to be a seperate bunch of Seven Sages who show up from somewhere to make it work as a backstory, and even then it doesn't work. Why would they seal Ganon in the FS THEN seal him in the Sacred Realm? That's like going 'hmm, we've got all the evils in the world locked up in Pandora's Box. Now, just incase it opens, why don't we take the box and put it in the same place where the greatest power ever known lies'.

It's not just bizarre.  It's plain moronic.

Even if it's retconned, it still doesn't make any sense. There's no talk of the Triforce in FSA. The whole point of ALttP's backstory was that Ganondorf accidentally discovered the gateway to the Sacred Realm and got the Triforce. In FSA, the Sacred Realm is already the Dark World. You can't seal him, THEN shove him in the Sacred Realm for kicks. It's just messed up.

Also I'd take issue with the Imprisoning War being retconned *twice*. First it was done in OoT, far more accurately I might add and with actual quotes from designers to suggest it was intended to be the Imprisoning War.

Then they do it again, switch everything around, remove the Triforce from the whole story, seal Ganon completely differently and the ONLY reason people think it's the Imprisoning War is because there are some bloody Knights of Hyrule (of some form or other) that showed up. Yet nobody thinks it's a retelling of ALttP just because it has Maidens in it, do they? Or a retelling of OoT because Malon shows up?

Other than *some* Knights of Hyrule (nothing to say they're the SAME Knights of Hyrule, nobody really thinks the Maidens are the same ones, after all) making an appearance and Ganon being sealed in some form or other, there are no outward similarities in plot to the Imprisoning War.


...

Anyways, Zythe, the way I got around that is that the FS itself is some sort of portal to Dark Wold, much like the Magic Mirror, only it doesn the user, just whatever you slice enough times with your sword.

But I don't think FSA is the IW anymore. Unless the FSA Maidens ARE the Wise Men/Sages or something.

#215 Fyxe

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 07:48 PM

...What, am I not allowed to even argue in the same topic as you anymore?

Holy hell.

And what has the FS got to do with the Sacred Realm/Dark World anyway? Where'd that come from? Other than convenient fanficiness.

#216 Doopliss

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 10:21 PM

Someone possessed the Triforce by FSA because of the existence of the Dark World (everything suggests that it's Ganon, because no other evil being has ever been mentioned to possess the Triforce), so it's impossible for it to be the Imprisoning War, apart from the game's inconsistencies which are more Ocarina of Time's.

(Why can't you people believe the Imprisoning War to not be a game.)

#217 Zythe

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 04:55 AM

The way I see it, there were two imprisoning wars, and the way it's told in LttP is sort of a summarised version of OoT, TWW, and HA so as not to spend two pages explaning.

#218 Fyxe

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:26 AM

Except it doesn't mention any of the events of WW or FSA.

#219 Showsni

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 07:36 AM

And not many of the events of OoT either. And it adds a lot of events which aren't in any of those games.

Which is why I think the IW has no game.

#220 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 10:58 AM

And what has the FS got to do with the Sacred Realm/Dark World anyway? Where'd that come from? Other than convenient fanficiness.

Right, and rewinding your own molecules isn't conveinent fanfiction.

But your earlier post that Mario JR. Ignored I agree with 100%

Someone possessed the Triforce by FSA because of the existence of the Dark World (everything suggests that it's Ganon, because no other evil being has ever been mentioned to possess the Triforce), so it's impossible for it to be the Imprisoning War, apart from the game's inconsistencies which are more Ocarina of Time's.


Ganon doesn't have the Triforce in FSA.

And yes, it's pretty obvious that FSA =/= Imprisoning War.

#221 Zythe

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 11:16 AM

Except it doesn't mention any of the events of WW or FSA.


That's what I'm saying, it condensed the story. Rather than say, "once upon a time a man tried to get the Triforce, then we sealed him again, then he tried again, then we turned him to stone and he died, then he came back to life somehow... then we sealed him again but this time double" it could be "the man who was after the Triforce got sealed away many years ago".

And MPS, we could always do like you, and place the IW post-HA.

#222 SOAP

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 11:33 AM

Except whatever was left of the Knights of Hyrule are already dead, Zythe. They're an important reference since without them FSA has no connection with the IW at all. I don't think FSA is the IW but it may take place in close proximity to it. I think it may take place between the IW and ALttP. It can't take place after because Ganon has ownership of the FS in ALttP.

But anyhow, he's what I believe now:

(Sleeping Zelda) LoZ-AoL

(Imprisoning War) ALttP-AST-LA

(Fierce Wars) OoT-MM

(Flooding of Hyrule) TWW-TT

(Hero of Travels) FS-FSA

(Hero of Men) TMC

Each games, excluding direct sequels, have backstories that pertian only to them and no game is the backstory of another game. They may relate to each other is some detail but anything other than that is purely speculative.

The Hero of Travels is still debatable since TMC's supposive sequel might still be FS's backstory.

And in all fairness, Fyxe is right.

#223 Zythe

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 11:42 AM

Except whatever was left of the Knights of Hyrule are already dead, Zythe.


That's MPS's theory. And it's not like Knights are hard to recruit, dude.

#224 SOAP

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 12:23 PM

The Knights of Hyrule seems to a be proper name of a specific group of knights, like a brotherhood of some sort and not just knights that happen to live in Hyrule. The KoH are long dead in ALttP but you still see Hyrulean knights running around don't you? If you say that that's it different recruit of knights you might as well break off any connection with IW altogether in FSA.

#225 Hero of Slime

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:13 PM

but you still see Hyrulean knights running around don't you?

When do you see Knights running around?

#226 Zythe

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:18 PM

^^ Not really. The four dead knigts are special. Otherwise, what with there being an Imprisoning War, it seems more like just an army. And I'm not saying that... I'm assuming this is MPS's theory.

#227 SOAP

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 04:13 PM

When do you see Knights running around?


Who are the guys in armor chasing Link around in ALttP then?

#228 Hero of Slime

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 05:11 PM

Ordinary Hylian soldiers.

#229 SOAP

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:01 PM

Ok. Whatever. If they're not the same guys from ALttP's bs, then FSA has no other real connection to FSA. I still say it's before ALttP because ganon's possesion of the Four Sword. So yeah: FSA>>IW>>ALttP. Unless anyone can give me a real reason to believe otherwise.

#230 Fyxe

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:02 PM

Or, if you want, Darknuts.

Oh them silly Darknuts. Damn Tartknuckles.

#231 Doopliss

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:32 PM

Ganon doesn't have the Triforce in FSA.

How do you know that he doesn't have the Triforce of Power? Why would the Dark World exist then?

#232 SOAP

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:42 PM

I think Nintendo was being intionally ambigous with the Triforce. We simply don't know who has it.We are lead to believe that the royal family has it but there's no evidence to back that up. But if Ganon has it already then why go after a lame trident and a mirror? He could just wish for those things. And even if he had just onee peice, he was perfectly able to conquer Hyrule without any of those things with just the ToP. I do think he may have the TOP and stole the Trident and the Mirror in order to take a different approach in conquering Hyrule. If FSA ever has a sequel I bet he'll come back to finish the job and try to claim the remaining peices. It would be cool if he actually succeds but the Sages seal him up in the Dark World he had previously created thus becoming ALttP's backstory.

#233 Doopliss

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:49 PM

What I think is that OoT happened, and then the FS games. Ganon only had the Triforce of Power at the end of OoT, so he wouldn't be so powerful, and the Triforce being split would explain why the Dark World exists; no one had touched the whole Triforce since Ocarina of Time.

#234 SOAP

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 07:13 PM

I'm starting to think that too Doopliss. And given that ALttp says he created Dark world, then, after a time, evilness start issuing forth gives plenty of time for Ganon to pick up a trident and a pretty mirror inbetween.

#235 Fatgoron

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 07:43 AM

I still beleive the IW is OoT, but the timeline theory/theories to which I subscribe lead me to believe that the IW story itself is a slightly confused version of events, with elements drawn from other events in Hyrule's history.(Yes, I'm trying to explain away the inconsistencies with a bare minimum of fan-wank, and relying on Nintendo having caused this to happen retroactively through their newer games)

#236 Showsni

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 08:35 AM

Remember the hero is always of the knight's bloodline. Which means that the knights are more than just soldiers, they are related by blood. And Link, in every game, is part of the kinght's bloodline. The knights themselves have descendants alive in every game.

#237 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 10:23 AM

Remember the hero is always of the knight's bloodline. Which means that the knights are more than just soldiers, they are related by blood. And Link, in every game, is part of the kinght's bloodline. The knights themselves have descendants alive in every game.


I think that only applies to Link to the Past.

#238 Doopliss

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 01:39 PM

Remember the hero is always of the knight's bloodline. Which means that the knights are more than just soldiers, they are related by blood. And Link, in every game, is part of the kinght's bloodline. The knights themselves have descendants alive in every game.

Showsni, you have a great knowledge of Zelda, but I don't remember anywhere saying that the Link from TWW, for example, belongs to the bloodline of knights, I agree with Crazy Penguin.

#239 Hero of Slime

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 02:00 PM

Isn't there something that says only a descendant of a Hylian Knight can use the Master Sword?

#240 SOAP

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 02:06 PM

No, you just have to be a "true hero" to be able to use it. This can apply to anyone truly heroic, even Zelda, as she was able pick up the sword in TWW.




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