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Skyward Sword's ending (in spoiler tags)


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#91 joeymartin64

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:02 AM

"Hey so uh that incarnation of hatred guy is going to come after us, and if it knows who I am they may or may not try to sacrifice me or my next incarnation to revive their true self as Demise or something?"

"Yea, let's do some MIB shit and remove Hylia from the records. Everyone'll think she's a lake lol"

I thought of that, and the future villains actually don't tend to make a beeline for the royals, now that I think about it (with the odd exception), so check.

Ehhh...I liked TP's implication that the Sacred Realm was physically part of Hyrule until the Twili War thing caused the Goddesses to hide it in a new manner, dividing the world. Maybe the "Sacred Realm" is defined as "Wherever the Triforce is" until said split occured?

I must need a refresher on TP, because I'm having a hard time remembering that implication.

EDIT:

The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm.


KAY

Edited by joeymartin64, 12 December 2011 - 12:06 AM.


#92 SOAP

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:30 AM

"Hey so uh that incarnation of hatred guy is going to come after us, and if it knows who I am they may or may not try to sacrifice me or my next incarnation to revive their true self as Demise or something?"

"Yea, let's do some MIB shit and remove Hylia from the records. Everyone'll think she's a lake lol"

I thought of that, and the future villains actually don't tend to make a beeline for the royals, now that I think about it (with the odd exception), so check.

Ehhh...I liked TP's implication that the Sacred Realm was physically part of Hyrule until the Twili War thing caused the Goddesses to hide it in a new manner, dividing the world. Maybe the "Sacred Realm" is defined as "Wherever the Triforce is" until said split occured?

I must need a refresher on TP, because I'm having a hard time remembering that implication.

EDIT:

The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm.


KAY


Wait!? Did that say lands specifically? As in lands plural? What if the providences in TP and SS are named so after the specfic spots each Goddesses touched down on the earth and cahnged the surrounding geography. Din hit first and caused a volcanic eruption and creating the landmass of Hyrule. The resulting volcano becomes Death Mountain later on. Nayru touched down in the Lanayru area and did something. Maybe it rained [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] and caused created rivers and lakes. Dunno. And Farore touched down in Faron and that specific spot just exploded with all kinds of life, particularly plant life. Perhaps the very specfic spot she touched down gave rise to the Deku Tree.

#93 joeymartin64

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:44 AM

That shit's directly Ctrl-C Crtl-V'd in from a game script a quick spin of the Googlemobile found. I doubt it's wrong. Either way, though, I don't think I'd read into the significance of the plural there. People say "lands of [Single Location Name]" the same way they say "waters of [Single Body of Water.]"

#94 SOAP

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:54 AM

That shit's directly Ctrl-C Crtl-V'd in from a game script a quick spin of the Googlemobile found. I doubt it's wrong. Either way, though, I don't think I'd read into the significance of the plural there. People say "lands of [Single Location Name]" the same way they say "waters of [Single Body of Water.]"


Still I kinda like the theory. I kinda thought along those lines since TP introduced the whole concept of the Providences even though they could be just names people gave to them because the regions reminded them of that specfic Goddesses. "Oh a volcanoe. That reminds of Din's fiery arms that moldedthe landscape. Let's name this region Eldin after Din." Something like that. Dunno. I'm tired.

#95 joeymartin64

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:00 AM

Well, when it comes to the name origins for the provinces, we've got characters with those derivative names. The problem SS brought up (That's two! Ding!) is why the Dragons have the same names as the Light Spirits.

#96 SOAP

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:13 AM

Well, when it comes to the name origins for the provinces, we've got characters with those derivative names. The problem SS brought up (That's two! Ding!) is why the Dragons have the same names as the Light Spirits.


I see it two ways. Either the Dragons ARE the Light Spirits and the Light Spirits are just ethereal forms they took on in TP(Kinda like how the Sages are all weird spirit looking guys with masks in TP but in other games they're mortals). Or the Dragons are named the way they are for the same reason the Light Spirits are: They're named after the region they watch over.

#97 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 05:08 AM

Or they're connected in an indirect way the same way Levias/The Windfish/The Ocean King/Jabu Jabu/Jabun are.

Hyrule has way too many whale deities, goddamn.

#98 joeymartin64

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 05:13 AM

And, hey, the elemental affinities change with the state of the area, too.

"Yo, you're over there, so you're Lanayru. Look a fish. What? Desert? No, man, that was years ago. This shit's a lake now. Fish."

...Good God, I shouldn't do this when I'm tired.

#99 SOAP

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:41 AM

And, hey, the elemental affinities change with the state of the area, too.

"Yo, you're over there, so you're Lanayru. Look a fish. What? Desert? No, man, that was years ago. This shit's a lake now. Fish."

...Good God, I shouldn't do this when I'm tired.


But Faron is still a Forest and has a Water Dragon (which kinda makes sense since plant life is dependant on water). And besides the TP Light Spirits don't really have elements other than all of them being related to Light. Hence the name, Light Spirits.

#100 Nerushi

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 09:56 AM

I used to think that the Sages weren't really 'present' in TP, and that they used identical celestial bodies to appear in certain locations. Not that it matters, but the light spirits may have done something similar, or it is just specific theme used for deities and higher beings in TP as opposed to SS more light-hearted style.

#101 FDL

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:58 PM

I don't think the dragons and the light spirits are the same entities, though they could share the same spirits, and I think the way the light spirits worked in TP makes it very easy for them to never show up again/not have even existed until the Twili's ancestors tried to steal the Triforce. Plus, given how far back in time SS must take place, I wouldn't be shocked if sickness and the various monsters that exist in Hyrule didn't slowly kill off the dragons even if they can't die of old age. Or hell, maybe they still do exist, they're just hidden like Levias and Eldin were.

#102 Showsni

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:47 PM

Aside from the admittedly minor time paradox at the end of the game, I don't think this game really brought up any hard or significant questions. Everything pretty much clicks together perfectly. And the game does give pretty much the best explanation for "The Legend of Zelda" herself so far.


So, let's discuss this "minor" time paradox.

How does time travel work in SS? Well, from the tree of life we can see that changing the past has an immediate effect on the future, rewriting it instantly. Link removes the seed from the past, the sickly tree vanishes in the future. Link plants the seed in the past, the tree has always been growing in the temple. Zelda goes to sleep to keep Demise sealed, and indeed his seal is still just about holding in the present day.

Hey now wait a minute, that's different. Link had to move the tree in the past before we saw it move in the present; but presumably Zelda is already sleeping in the temple at the start of the game, or else the seal would be broken already/Impa wouldn't be watching over the temple/Impa wouldn't have Zelda's bracelet.

Okay, that's a minor paradox, we can live with that; in gameplay terms, it wouldn't be obvious to travel back in time and plant a tree you can already see (there's no real reason too, here it is already!).

But what about Demise? Well, since he is still sealed at the start of the game, it seems the time travel that affects him is the first version, like the tree - when Girahim wakes him up and feeds him Zelda's soul, the future changes immediately to reflect that. Which wpuld rewrite the future where he's sealed... which would remove the need for Link to wish Demise dead on the triforce.

My basic point is... Link totally got gipped out of his wish! With Demise already dealt with by himself in the past, there's no need for the changed future Link to use his wish to kill Demise. Alternatively, Link could use his wish in a more sensible way, to totally remove Demise (and his echoes or hatred) from history. The triforce is meant to be a supremely powerful device, whose wish will last as long as Link lives. What wish is it fulfilling exactly? No wish at all? Will Demise's remains (in the Master Sword) disappear when the timeline reaches the point Link should have made the wish? Or did the change in history cause Link to make a different wish?

Edited by Showsni, 12 December 2011 - 03:48 PM.


#103 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:10 PM

How does time travel work in SS? Well, from the tree of life we can see that changing the past has an immediate effect on the future, rewriting it instantly. Link removes the seed from the past, the sickly tree vanishes in the future. Link plants the seed in the past, the tree has always been growing in the temple. Zelda goes to sleep to keep Demise sealed, and indeed his seal is still just about holding in the present day.

Hey now wait a minute, that's different. Link had to move the tree in the past before we saw it move in the present; but presumably Zelda is already sleeping in the temple at the start of the game, or else the seal would be broken already/Impa wouldn't be watching over the temple/Impa wouldn't have Zelda's bracelet.


I believe I've mentioned before that Zelda, and things directly related to her, are the only things that exist in a stable time loop, since the Tree Of Life and everything with the Timeshift mechanic seem to allow time-rewriting.

But what about Demise? Well, since he is still sealed at the start of the game, it seems the time travel that affects him is the first version, like the tree - when Girahim wakes him up and feeds him Zelda's soul, the future changes immediately to reflect that. Which wpuld rewrite the future where he's sealed... which would remove the need for Link to wish Demise dead on the triforce.


Demise is dealt with in the past, but the Imprisoned still breaks out of his seal at EXTREMELY CONVENIENT TIMES FOR LINK I MIGHT ADD for temporal continuity. There's no metaphysical reason for it except for preserving Zelda's timeline so there isn't two of her running around. Since she is a legit, straight up divine entity, there really should not be duplicates of her active in the world.

My basic point is... Link totally got gipped out of his wish! With Demise already dealt with by himself in the past, there's no need for the changed future Link to use his wish to kill Demise. Alternatively, Link could use his wish in a more sensible way, to totally remove Demise (and his echoes or hatred) from history. The triforce is meant to be a supremely powerful device, whose wish will last as long as Link lives. What wish is it fulfilling exactly? No wish at all? Will Demise's remains (in the Master Sword) disappear when the timeline reaches the point Link should have made the wish? Or did the change in history cause Link to make a different wish?


The Triforce is what it is because it regulates the laws that make up the universe; it maintains the order of what the Goddesses created. It's basically the lynchpin of reality. It destroyed Demise in a way that didn't mess with time because that would be directly against it's Prime Directive, so Demise is destroyed in the present. Demise's destruction in the past is all fine and all, but the Imprisoned aspect still acts up to keep timeline continuity, because unmaking a Triforce's wish in a looping Grandfather Paradox scenario is probably SUPER BAD for the stability of reality.

#104 ganonlord6000

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:22 PM

Aside from the admittedly minor time paradox at the end of the game, I don't think this game really brought up any hard or significant questions. Everything pretty much clicks together perfectly. And the game does give pretty much the best explanation for "The Legend of Zelda" herself so far.


So, let's discuss this "minor" time paradox.

How does time travel work in SS? Well, from the tree of life we can see that changing the past has an immediate effect on the future, rewriting it instantly. Link removes the seed from the past, the sickly tree vanishes in the future. Link plants the seed in the past, the tree has always been growing in the temple. Zelda goes to sleep to keep Demise sealed, and indeed his seal is still just about holding in the present day.

Hey now wait a minute, that's different. Link had to move the tree in the past before we saw it move in the present; but presumably Zelda is already sleeping in the temple at the start of the game, or else the seal would be broken already/Impa wouldn't be watching over the temple/Impa wouldn't have Zelda's bracelet.

Okay, that's a minor paradox, we can live with that; in gameplay terms, it wouldn't be obvious to travel back in time and plant a tree you can already see (there's no real reason too, here it is already!).

But what about Demise? Well, since he is still sealed at the start of the game, it seems the time travel that affects him is the first version, like the tree - when Girahim wakes him up and feeds him Zelda's soul, the future changes immediately to reflect that. Which wpuld rewrite the future where he's sealed... which would remove the need for Link to wish Demise dead on the triforce.

My basic point is... Link totally got gipped out of his wish! With Demise already dealt with by himself in the past, there's no need for the changed future Link to use his wish to kill Demise. Alternatively, Link could use his wish in a more sensible way, to totally remove Demise (and his echoes or hatred) from history. The triforce is meant to be a supremely powerful device, whose wish will last as long as Link lives. What wish is it fulfilling exactly? No wish at all? Will Demise's remains (in the Master Sword) disappear when the timeline reaches the point Link should have made the wish? Or did the change in history cause Link to make a different wish?


I was thinking something along these lines. I've already paid a little visit to ZU and some of them over-analyzing the time travel aspect of SS by saying that the events of the ending already happened before the beginning of the game, which doesn't work out and that the Master Sword was sealed behind that door in the temple the whole, never mind the fact that the pedestal is right behind the Gate of Time(well, what else is new? Posted Image). SS's time travel probably works in a way similar to OOA and the majority of OOT in which changing something in the past automatically affects the future. Minor paradoxes like the bracelet is something that really does not mean anything. My guesses for that are A) Zelda gave Impa the bracelet in the past to see if it was her in the present, or B) it was an error on Nintendo's part, and you really don't see it unless you really pay attention.


As for what happened to Link's wish? I haven't a clue. Maybe he uses it later on to rule Hyrule? (AOL, anyone?)

#105 joeymartin64

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 05:37 PM

But Faron is still a Forest and has a Water Dragon (which kinda makes sense since plant life is dependant on water). And besides the TP Light Spirits don't really have elements other than all of them being related to Light. Hence the name, Light Spirits.

Well, their shapes are based on the wildlife of the area. I would assume that an aquatic creature like the one Lanayru resembled in TP would be water-aligned, as much as that didn't come up in the game itself. Side note on the Light Spirits. I always liked the idea that there were other Light Spirits we didn't see, with names like Parapa or Tantari, from the areas of the greater Hyrule area we didn't go to.

Edited by joeymartin64, 12 December 2011 - 05:37 PM.


#106 ZeldaZealot

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:54 PM

I was thinking something along these lines. I've already paid a little visit to ZU and some of them over-analyzing the time travel aspect of SS by saying that the events of the ending already happened before the beginning of the game, which doesn't work out



How does it not work out? The ceremony that Zelda and Link had at the end of the Wing Ceremony is based off of the one that the Goddess and her chosen hero had... which later in the game, in the past, after Zelda is revealed to be the Goddess Reborn and Link is the Goddess chosen hero they had the ceremony. What about the bracelet that Zelda gave to Impa and that Ancient Impa had since the first time Link meet her how she seems to know more about what is going to happen? Actually she talks a lot about the wheels of fate, how it is Link's fate to save Zelda and save the world, and how it was all destined long ago... like she personally knows what is going to happen like she already saw the events of the game from young Impa's eyes(which would make sense since she is young Impa... except that she is no longer young anymore.)

Also what would happen if the events in the game didn't already happen? The seal on Demise in the past would have failed long before Zelda and Link were born because Zelda wasn't lead to the past to go into the slumber that would strengthen the seal to last till Zelda and Link were born. So Demise is free, based on the fact that Hylia isn't anywhere in the Past when Link and Zelda was there(and you must admit that she would have come if she felt Demise breaking free of her seal.) and also because Demise mentioned that only Link stand between him and the Triforce, Hylia has already started the "incarnation into mortal form" so technically she is dead. And there is no hero is coming since none of the humans at that time is brave enough to fight Demise... So Demise would have found a way to Skyloft and slaughter the rest of the humans, thereby making it impossible for there to be a Link or a Zelda in the "present" that would have gone into the past to stop him.

Let's look at it from one last view. Impa, she was ordered by the Goddesses(most likely right before she starting her incarnation.) to go into the future to lead Zelda to the past. If there is one thing that we know from OoT it is that the events that would play out while a character is in stasis will still play out so she should, by logic of the events of the ending not happening before the game, landed in a time where Demise is free and has control of the Triforce(because of the above 'paragraph'.), but she did not because the events of the ending happened while she was in "stasis".

and that the Master Sword was sealed behind that door in the temple the whole, never mind the fact that the pedestal is right behind the Gate of Time.


You mean the same pedestal that does not appear in the past until after Demise is defeated? If it could appear out of nowhere then it could disappear and reappear again.

My guesses for that are A) Zelda gave Impa the bracelet in the past to see if it was her in the present, or B) it was an error on Nintendo's part, and you really don't see it unless you really pay attention.


You should really watch the ending again. Zelda gave it to Impa believing that she would not see Impa again. And based on how important they based that reveal on the bracelet it is most likely not an error on Nintendo's part.

#107 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:57 AM

The entire above post is invalidated by the Tree of Life and the Timeshift stones. Time Travel in Skyward Sword is not consistent within itself, therefore Zelda's sleeping timeloop isn't evidence of a damn thing.

#108 ZeldaZealot

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 09:55 AM

The entire above post is invalidated by the Tree of Life and the Timeshift stones. Time Travel in Skyward Sword is not consistent within itself, therefore Zelda's sleeping timeloop isn't evidence of a damn thing.


Except for the whole fact that if the events of the ending didn't happen before the game even started then the game wouldn't happen either. And ZZ already pointed out Impa wearing Zelda's bracelet, because it also means that Link have already defeated Demise in the past.

And as ZZ already said, it is not like time traveling inconsistency have not happen before(OoT, MM, OoA.). ZZ is going to have to view the Timeshift stones and the Tree of Life as the same thing as the time stuff in the Goron section in OoA, time traveling puzzles that doesn't seem to mean anything compared to the game's main theme in time traveling.

ZZ doesn't want to do that, but he can't deny what Impa's bracelet is showing him, the tales of Goddess and her chosen hero(about the ceremony and about the sailcloth.), where young Impa landed when she went into the future(which would be before everyone else went to the past.), and by what should have happened if the events of the ending did not happen before the game.

Edited by ZeldaZealot, 13 December 2011 - 09:58 AM.


#109 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 04:06 PM

Except for the whole fact that if the events of the ending didn't happen before the game even started then the game wouldn't happen either. And ZZ already pointed out Impa wearing Zelda's bracelet, because it also means that Link have already defeated Demise in the past.


Why would the game not happen if the events of the ending didn't happen? Explain that.

As for Impa, I already addressed that. Zelda's temporal continuity is consistently shown as not being the same as the WORLD'S temporal continuity, whatever the deeper implications of that might be.

And as ZZ already said, it is not like time traveling inconsistency have not happen before(OoT, MM, OoA.). ZZ is going to have to view the Timeshift stones and the Tree of Life as the same thing as the time stuff in the Goron section in OoA, time traveling puzzles that doesn't seem to mean anything compared to the game's main theme in time traveling.


The point I'm making is that you're making assumptions based on incomplete and contradictory data; that's a very WRONG thing to do for anyone, no matter your position. You're positing that the game NEEDS to be in a stable time loop, but we have no real, legitimate reason to think so, and lots of reasons to doubt the idea.

ZZ doesn't want to do that, but he can't deny what Impa's bracelet is showing him, the tales of Goddess and her chosen hero(about the ceremony and about the sailcloth.), where young Impa landed when she went into the future(which would be before everyone else went to the past.), and by what should have happened if the events of the ending did not happen before the game.


You're still not answering the question. How does the beginning of the game not happen if the ENDING of the game doesn't occur?

Bear in mind that Zelda being asleep is not the end of the game, and she's a special case anyway because she's an atemporal deity in human form.

#110 ZeldaZealot

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 04:38 PM

As for Impa, I already addressed that. Zelda's temporal continuity is consistently shown as not being the same as the WORLD'S temporal continuity, whatever the deeper implications of that might be.


Except that the only way that Zelda's temporal continuity with Impa's bracelet works is if Link was already destined to defeat Demise.

You're positing that the game NEEDS to be in a stable time loop, but we have no real, legitimate reason to think so, and lots of reasons to doubt the idea.


Oh so Impa's bracelet, the tales of the Goddess and her chosen one in the present and the ceremony they had in the past, and Impa's knowledge and insistence that only Link can save Zelda/the world, like she personally know it first hand, Zelda going into the past to hold the seal on Demise for thousands of years, otherwise he would have broken free, does not exists in the game? Because those are legitimate reasons to believe that the game is in a stable time loop.

Why would the game not happen if the events of the ending didn't happen? Explain that.

You're still not answering the question. How does the beginning of the game not happen if the ENDING of the game doesn't occur?


ZZ will just quote himself :

Also what would happen if the events in the game didn't already happen? The seal on Demise in the past would have failed long before Zelda and Link were born because Zelda wasn't lead to the past to go into the slumber that would strengthen the seal to last till Zelda and Link were born. So Demise is free, based on the fact that Hylia isn't anywhere in the Past when Link and Zelda was there(and you must admit that she would have come if she felt Demise breaking free of her seal.) and also because Demise mentioned that only Link stand between him and the Triforce, Hylia has already started the "incarnation into mortal form" so technically she is dead. And there is no hero is coming since none of the humans at that time is brave enough to fight Demise... So Demise would have found a way to Skyloft and slaughter the rest of the humans, thereby making it impossible for there to be a Link or a Zelda in the "present" that would have gone into the past to stop him.



#111 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 05:38 PM

Except that the only way that Zelda's temporal continuity with Impa's bracelet works is if Link was already destined to defeat Demise.


What if Old Impa always wore that bracelet and Zelda's actions just changed its origins, without the act of Zelda Giving the Bracelet being predestined?

What if in the uninterrupted passage of events, Impa is given the Bracelet when Zelda initially goes to sleep? We don't know.

Oh so Impa's bracelet, the tales of the Goddess and her chosen one in the present and the ceremony they had in the past, and Impa's knowledge and insistence that only Link can save Zelda/the world, like she personally know it first hand, Zelda going into the past to hold the seal on Demise for thousands of years, otherwise he would have broken free, does not exists in the game? Because those are legitimate reasons to believe that the game is in a stable time loop.


Impa's bracelet is addressed above, the Goddess and her Chosen one are predestined by prophecy as is Impa's knowledge regardless of her personal experience, and Zelda goes back in time and keeps a seal for thousands of years to wake up in modern day EVEN IF Demise dies in the past. There is a very noticeable disconnect in continuity no matter what we do. Even if there is a time loop, it is not a STABLE one.

Your quote isn't useful: You specifically said the ENDING last time, not the events of the game. There is a difference.

#112 SOAP

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:32 AM

Of course I need to finish the game (I had the ending spoiled so it's no biggie for me) but maybe the answer is way more simple than we think. The reason things don't appear in the present until Link goes into the past and make them appear, such as planting the Tree of Life in the Temple of Hylia, is because we're playing the game from Link's perspective. To anyone else, it's as if the tree was always there, but to Link, he remembers it not being there because he was the one who caused the change in the past to begin with. The reason he sees the bracelet on Impa and such is because these are changes in the past that Zelda created, not him. It's entirely possible that from Zelda's perspective, Old Impa never had the bracelet until she gives it to Young Impa in the past but from Link's perspective, she always had it.

#113 joeymartin64

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 06:18 AM

Sorry, but that doesn't work. If there's no tree planted, Groose will say how awesome it would be to have a tree there, very much noticing the lack of one.

#114 Altum

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 08:20 PM

I haven't been able to play the game yet, but since I've seen some talk of destiny/dharma/whathaveyou and how it can or cannot be changed, I look at the time paradoxes in different ways. There are generally two ideas for time travel, both actually summed up pretty well in the show Lost. There's the idea that history can't be changed, and by going back in time to change something, you end up causing it in the first place. Paradoxical, yes, but it basically means that everything is predetermined and part of some grander, intelligent design. Then there is the idea that, maybe, just maybe, you can do something different and change history.

I would assume that the weird loops where things seem to have happened already were part of the plan, whereas things like the tree being moved may be something that was not originally intended.

I don't see why the game has to adhere to only one or the other. Do both? Especially with Zelda/Hylia being associated with time. I'd look at it as Link's actions are separate from Zelda/Hylia's, which tend to be more internally consistent from a historical sense. He's kinda changing history by acting "outside the system," much like the Hero of Time does when traveling up and down the (at that time, single, as Zelda hadn't split it yet) timeline.

Edited by Altum, 15 December 2011 - 08:26 PM.


#115 SOAP

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:38 AM

Sorry, but that doesn't work. If there's no tree planted, Groose will say how awesome it would be to have a tree there, very much noticing the lack of one.


From Link's perspective, Link remembers Groose saying that because that's part of his experiences of how reality was up until the point where he goes back in time and changes things. What would make it not work, and I'm not that far in the game yet so forgive me if I'm wrong, is if Groose himself acted like the tree just popped out of nowhere and remembered having made the suggestion to begin with. For my theory to work, from Grooses perspective, any changes to past would have seemed like they were always there to him. Almost as if his memories are being rewritten everytime when in reality, it's the whole universe being rewritten. Then again, if he was the actual catalyst for the change, then he'd remember things as they were before the change and for him it would seem like any changes popped out of nowhere.

Edited by SOAP, 16 December 2011 - 01:48 AM.


#116 joeymartin64

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:49 AM

Well, Groose does act as though it's always been there once you plant it. I think I misread you before, but I think I've got it now. I guess it makes as much sense as can really be made out of it. The way the game handles changes in the past is inconsistent as all hell. The ending treats it two different ways for two items within the same scene.

#117 SOAP

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 02:51 AM

Well, Groose does act as though it's always been there once you plant it. I think I misread you before, but I think I've got it now. I guess it makes as much sense as can really be made out of it. The way the game handles changes in the past is inconsistent as all hell. The ending treats it two different ways for two items within the same scene.


Well to me it's consistent. It just appears inconsistent because Link is not the only Time Traveler, yet the player can observe how the universe changes according from Link's perspective. Any changes Link makes seem instantaneous to us as soon as we return to the present. To other characters, they react as if the changes had always been a reality. Any changes in history Link himself does not make seem like they had always been to us players. It's consistent, just a matter of perspective. That's not to say it's not confusing as hell. The easiest way for me to understand SS's time travel, is to think of the universe and everyone in it as a recording tape that can be written on and rewritten over and over. The one who makes the changes is like a splice of of the original recording that gets taken out and repasted in the new recording therefore, all their memories and experiences of how things were remain intact why everyone else remembers thing differently. This to avoid something like a grandfather paradox where Link removes the original purpose of going back in time to begin with. Otherwise if Link changes the past to where the tree was always there and thousands of yaers into the future Link grows up in Skyloft then goes to the surface and sees the tree there as if it's always been there then there's no reason for him to go back in time to plant it which means that it won't grow inside the temple which means it wouldn't have always been there and oh dear I've gone cross-eyed now.

Edited by SOAP, 16 December 2011 - 02:51 AM.


#118 Nerushi

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 04:30 PM

Petrhaps it is a part of Links power as the choosen of the gods to be immune to any sort of time-alteration? Would be the perfect counter against Demise - who according to Fi has mastered time and space itself, but Link stands as a counter to that by being outside time and space itself. Sort of. >.>

#119 Jarsh

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:36 PM

I think the Tree of Life and timeshift stones are the exceptions to the overall timeloop that is SS rather than the Tree of Life and timeshift stones proving the game isn't a timeloop. Demise's remaining consciousness being sealed in the Master Sword leads quite well into The Imprisoned being a "vessel," as Fi calls it.

The Imprisoned coming out of where Link fought him thousands of years ago also makes sense since the sealing stone wasn't there in the past where Hylia's original seal took place. The purple "gash" below in the sealing stone in the ground where The Imprisoned comes out of looks similar to the purple portal thing Demise made in the past.

Edited by Jarsh, 16 December 2011 - 07:36 PM.


#120 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:57 PM

I think the Tree of Life and timeshift stones are the exceptions to the overall timeloop that is SS rather than the Tree of Life and timeshift stones proving the game isn't a timeloop.


The Master Sword follows the same mechanics as the Tree of Life and the Timeshift Stones, and it's a plot thing. It's not that easy.




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