148 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Okay, I know the ending and the rumors are fake. All I can say it laeds into OoT pretty well, [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of the forgone conclusions people expected to happen do happen. There is only one oddball detail that bugs me that kinda makes me believe LoZ or ALttP or even TP happens next instead of OoT. As strange as that may sound and it all has to do what is shown at literally the very last second.

[Raien]

I just saw the final battle footage and yeah, the 4chan rumours I assumed were true were in fact fake. That said, the real ending is not much better.

Spoiler

The only positive thing to say is that the real ending isn't as downright retarded as the rumour, nor does it fuck over the classic games quite as badly as the rumour did. Zelda doesn't instigate the recurring appearance of Link, Zelda & Ganondorf; Ghirahim does by apparently putting "a curse" on Link and Zelda's descendants and promising his own reincarnation (as if he read ahead in the script). Not only is this ending much more lazy and contrived than the rumour but it still manages to completely undermine the motivations that Ganondorf gave for coveting Hyrule in The Wind Waker.

Ganondorf's motivation has now literally become "A wizard did it".

*Sigh* I think I'm going to need a stiff drink come Friday.

EDIT: For clarification:

Spoiler

I've just learned the final boss is not a form of Ghirahim but a different villain called Demise. So it's Demise that cursed Link and Zelda and reincarnated as Ganondorf.

Edited by Raien, 16 November 2011 - 06:14 PM.

[SOAP]

I just saw the final battle footage and yeah, the 4chan rumours I assumed were true were in fact fake. That said, the real ending is not much better.

Spoiler

The only positive thing to say is that the real ending isn't as downright retarded as the rumour, nor does it fuck over the classic games quite as badly as the rumour did. Zelda doesn't instigate the recurring appearance of Link, Zelda & Ganondorf; Ghirahim does by apparently putting "a curse" on Link and Zelda's descendants and promising his own reincarnation (as if he read ahead in the script). Not only is this ending much more lazy and contrived than the rumour but it still manages to completely undermine the motivations that Ganondorf gave for coveting Hyrule in The Wind Waker.

Ganondorf's motivation has now literally become "A wizard did it".

*Sigh* I think I'm going to need a stiff drink come Friday.

Spoiler

To me that just seem like them reusing Ganondorf's villian speech TP. The longer one that got cut. They're almost the same even. It did not seem retarded to me at all. It just makes Demise the ur-Evil of the Zeldaverse instead of Ganon.

Still I would have done it differently.

Edited by SOAP, 16 November 2011 - 12:34 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Spoiler

Link's and Zelda's descendants are cursed in every fucking game, big deal.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Spoiler

Honestly, I think it's better than the rumors, though not all that different. I like it for the sole reason, that there's actually an explanation for why and how the different Links and Zeldas constantly meet up, but that's just me.

[ZeldaZealot]

Hmm, Well the only way that ZZ can see for Raien to be happy(at least partially) with the storyline would be that FSA comes before OoT so that...

Spoiler

that Ganon would be the reincarnation Demise(which would somewhat also explain the "Ancient Demon Reborn" line in the game. And then that Ganon would still be sealed during the events of OoT making OoT's Ganondorf not be an incarnation of Demise, making him free to have his own motives(which he explains in WW.).

[Sir Turtlelot]

Spoiler

I don't think that's quite what was intended. From my understanding, ALL of the main villains in the series are supposed to be an incarnations of Demise/a product of his curse.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 17 November 2011 - 12:56 PM.

[ZeldaZealot]

Possibly, but ZZ was just trying to set the games up in a way that would make Raien at least a little happier with the story progression of OoT's Ganondorf's motive.

[SOAP]

Possibly, but ZZ was just trying to set the games up in a way that would make Raien at least a little happier with the story progression of OoT's Ganondorf's motive.

Trust me, that's a lost cause.

[martinDTanderson]

I was quite happy with the ending, as it explained quite a few things, while introducing a couple more new bits of information...

Spoiler

Demise is not a person, but more like the source of all that is evil. His strength draws others with evil intent, and gives them power. The Master Sword is known as "The Blade of Evil's Bane" because it destroyed and sealed away this source of evil. But as Demise was defeated, he said his influence will be reincarnated in others who will rise to try to take the Triforce and bring darkness to the world. Girahim, Agahnim, Vaati, Ganon, The Dark Interlopers - All under the influence and strengthened by one original source of evil - Not controlled by it.

Spoiler

Hyrule is named after the Goddess which was left to look after the Triforce and the World, took on a mortal form - Hylia. Those descended from her, the Hylia people, are the ones chosen by the Gods. The name comes from either "Hylia's Rule" or "Hylia's Realm"

All the previous knowledge of the Triforce...

Spoiler

Impa and Hylia/Zelda decided to keep it hidden for the most part.

[Crimson Lego]

For anyone who's seen the ending...

Spoiler

Happen to know the name of the song that plays around 3:00 and around when Zelda's pleading to Impa for them to go back to the future with her, Groose, and Link? I want it for my iPod.

[FDL]

I greatly preferred this to TWW's "explanation", which I never really considered a large part of the character anyway. I don't know why the fandom placed such importance on that line from TWW anyway. Ganondorf's greed is clearly not just because the desert sucks.

[MikePetersSucks]

The fandom liked it because it made him a three-dimensional character, I suppose. I imagined that Ganondorf had legitimate grievances, but because of his jealousy, it turned into full out greed and whatnot. Or maybe it was all something he just told himself to justify his atrocities. The madness of losing everything he tried to conquer could easily lead to him concluding, "No one should stop me because I'm SAVING Hyrule, and when I saave it I deserve to be King!"

whatever the case, being the embodiment of someone else's hatred does a great job explaining how he got so easily corrupted.

[FDL]

Well I'm not trying to totally devalue it, but yeah that last sentence there is sort of what I'm saying. He was always this embodiment of evil and greed and I think this is a suitably grandiose origin for that. I honestly think this new revelation doesn't retcon the other factors anyway, he was still raised in a harsh environment by two evil witches. I guess my issue with the fandom's reaction to TWW's line would especially be the way it was treated as though Ganondorf was this noble character and his embodiment of evil-ness was suddenly overlooked by many fans.

[MikePetersSucks]

Alternatively, instead of being a supernatural being incarnated as some human, Demise's curse was a dharma, and Ganondorf just happened to inherit it, but it could fall onto other candidates, such as Vaati, so long as the successor binds the dharmas of Link and Zelda to eternal suffering and conflict.

Interestingly, as the timeline seems to go (in my interpretation anyway), Link and Zelda drift apart over the millenia, becoming less and less affectionate and more and more formal due to not knowing each other well what with their dtrifting-apart social stations and the whole Save The World thing.

Maybe that's the true curse, here. They're together forever, but it's becoming less meaningful for them to be so. Someone want to comb through all the games and see how a timeline would look like on a scale based on this idea? Like, for example, TMC has them more affectionate than OOT, so TMC comes first, etc?

[FDL]

Demise's words could definitely apply to more than just Ganondorf, though I think with them being voiced by the same guy and both lusting for the Triforce, plus the fact that Aonuma described the game pre-release as touching on why Ganondorf specifically showed up, I get the sense the connection between Demise and Ganondorf is stronger than his connection to other villains, Zant and Aghanim obviously being exceptions.

[MikePetersSucks]

I would wager the affair is something like "Ganondorf is the one who embodies the dharma of Demise's hatred, but when Ganon is incapacitated, a spiritual balance demands someone takes his place as Demon King."

[Hooded Warrior]

Personally I never really cared for Wind Waker's version of Ganondorf.
I didn't like the way that Nintendo tried to give him more depth. It felt forced, and it came without foreshadowing. So I'm open to another plot device that explain's Ganondorf's origins.

Edited by Hooded Warrior, 04 December 2011 - 07:20 AM.

[Showsni]

Maybe that's the true curse, here. They're together forever, but it's becoming less meaningful for them to be so. Someone want to comb through all the games and see how a timeline would look like on a scale based on this idea? Like, for example, TMC has them more affectionate than OOT, so TMC comes first, etc?

You'd have Spirit Tracks coming before Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass, which seems slightly problematic.

[BenKelly]

Really enjoyed the ending. Having an agency motivating evil in the Zelda world does interfere with the motives of the characters. Religions and philosophy that attempt to explain evil do not negate individual motivation.

I think the game itself has interesting implications on the future of the storyline. The existence of a more futuristic world in the past free of the Master Sword and Ganondorf tropes, while allowing creative freedom to the world could be explored in prequels. Alternatively, a sequel could focus on Ganondorf trying to break free of the will of Demise with a little help from his "friends". Redemption story for a Nintendo villain?


The guys taking over the Zelda creative reings are certainly more story-oriented so anything's possible.

[MikePetersSucks]

You'd have Spirit Tracks coming before Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass, which seems slightly problematic.

Derp. Well, I don't know, Link and Tetra seemed to have a hell of a thing going on by Phantom Hourglass.

But then Spirit Tracks comes after a seemingly permanent death of Ganondorf anyway. The curse might be full-on broken by King Daphne's wish.

I think the game itself has interesting implications on the future of the storyline. The existence of a more futuristic world in the past free of the Master Sword and Ganondorf tropes, while allowing creative freedom to the world could be explored in prequels. Alternatively, a sequel could focus on Ganondorf trying to break free of the will of Demise with a little help from his "friends". Redemption story for a Nintendo villain?

I wouldn't be interested in any of these possibilities, honestly. They're way too fanfiction-y.

[Masamune]

Ganondorf, I feel, has too much pride to just be a puppet of Demise or destiny. If he was ever to try and 'break free' of Demise's influence, it would be so he could escape the whole "Doomed To Fail" clause.

[Person]

Ganon's perma-death in TWW might have just let Bellum and then Malladus take over as the main bearers of the curse.

Edited by Person, 05 December 2011 - 06:13 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Or they're just big ass demons that accumulated a lot of power. Regardless of Demise's curse, there's monsters, demons, and demon lords throughout the world, along with evils that don't have Demise as the root cause, such as Majora's Mask and the Wind Fish's Nightmare.

[BenKelly]

I wouldn't be interested in any of these possibilities, honestly. They're way too fanfiction-y.

So is an implied Link-Zelda romance and they did that (quite well at that). It would seem to be strange to introduce a new Big Bad into the Zelda mythos, not kill him off in the end and use him to explain the source of evil in the world and then not use him again. He surely will show up again and so will Ganondorf because he's Ganondorf. The prequel addiction that the Zelda team is hooked on certainly hasn't been closed off by the Skyward Sword storyline either.

[MikePetersSucks]

So is an implied Link-Zelda romance and they did that (quite well at that).

Zelda/Link romance has been around since the first two games, especially with the cartoon.

. It would seem to be strange to introduce a new Big Bad into the Zelda mythos, not kill him off

Errr...well, they kind of did. His body is destroyed and his soul is slowly rotting to nothing, sealed in place by Fi's slumber. That's pretty damn dead as you can expect an immortal quasi-deity Maou to get.

The prequel addiction that the Zelda team is hooked on certainly hasn't been closed off by the Skyward Sword storyline either.

I'd wager that it is; atleast it should be for a good decade, given the significance of Skyward Sword's release.

I mean, there's not much further back they could GO.

[BenKelly]

So is an implied Link-Zelda romance and they did that (quite well at that).

Zelda/Link romance has been around since the first two games, especially with the cartoon.

. It would seem to be strange to introduce a new Big Bad into the Zelda mythos, not kill him off

Errr...well, they kind of did. His body is destroyed and his soul is slowly rotting to nothing, sealed in place by Fi's slumber. That's pretty damn dead as you can expect an immortal quasi-deity Maou to get.

The prequel addiction that the Zelda team is hooked on certainly hasn't been closed off by the Skyward Sword storyline either.

I'd wager that it is; atleast it should be for a good decade, given the significance of Skyward Sword's release.

I mean, there's not much further back they could GO.

There was no romance implied except on the part of the fans. When on earth did the cartoon impact the games? Now that's fan-fiction!

As for implications based on Zelda traditions if we were to go there, redemption has been a prominent zelda theme since the new guard started taking over circa MM. Skullkid, Staven/Byrne, WW King of Hyrule, Midna are all examples of this, even Ganondorf starts showing depth to his actions in WW. Zelda has been away moving from black and white/good and evil for a while now. And Demise is "sealed", a surefire indication he is indeed alive.

They certainly can go back further if Lanayru desert is populated by robots and moblins carry tazer swords in the past that they don't carry in the present.

[joeymartin64]

So I guess I'm the only one that didn't see Demise place a curse. It read more to me like he was stating the old "good and evil will always exist" deal. Fi's analysis says he's the "source of all monsters," so maybe the guy we saw really was the source of evil in the Zeldaverse given form. That would mean that him saying his hate never perishes, and that he would rise again is simply him saying that evil will never be totally eradicated.

As for the prequel addiction, hey, with the robots and tech we saw, maybe they can do that sci-fi Zelda some people were wanting, just in the far past instead of the far future. Hell, maybe setting that up was the whole point of including it, you think? Eh? Ehhh? Yeah, me neither.

[MikePetersSucks]

There was no romance implied except on the part of the fans. When on earth did the cartoon impact the games? Now that's fan-fiction!

Zelda kisses Link in the second game.

As for implications based on Zelda traditions if we were to go there, redemption has been a prominent zelda theme since the new guard started taking over circa MM. Skullkid, Staven/Byrne, WW King of Hyrule, Midna are all examples of this, even Ganondorf starts showing depth to his actions in WW. Zelda has been away moving from black and white/good and evil for a while now. And Demise is "sealed", a surefire indication he is indeed alive.

All those examples of redemption are people who weren't evil to begin with, and depth of action doesn't equate to sympathy or redemption.

Even dead villains are sealed in Zelda, as indicated by the many sealed ghosts or ruined dark treasures of the Twili. Either way, Demise is "ROTTING AND DISSOLVING", so he'll never be as strong as he was. He's effectively out of the picture.

They certainly can go back further if Lanayru desert is populated by robots and moblins carry tazer swords in the past that they don't carry in the present.

Yea, and there's also no Hylians living on the surface, and the sky barrier had never been penetrated before the events of Skyward Sword. The marvelous adventures of Tazer Moblin, I guess.

So I guess I'm the only one that didn't see Demise place a curse. It read more to me like he was stating the old "good and evil will always exist" deal. Fi's analysis says he's the "source of all monsters," so maybe the guy we saw really was the source of evil in the Zeldaverse given form. That would mean that him saying his hate never perishes, and that he would rise again is simply him saying that evil will never be totally eradicated.

Eh, yes and no. He literally said they'd be dogged by an incarnation of his hatred; that was pretty specific wording and I would give it significance. I like to think that Hylia's plans only called for one Link and Zelda, but Demise bound them with eternal dharmas so that they, and Hyrule, would suffer forever.

[joeymartin64]

Eh, yes and no. He literally said they'd be dogged by an incarnation of his hatred; that was pretty specific wording and I would give it significance. I like to think that Hylia's plans only called for one Link and Zelda, but Demise bound them with eternal dharmas so that they, and Hyrule, would suffer forever.

Could be. It still read more to me like he was stating an established fact, as if something like this had happened before, rather than enacting something, though.