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#61 Vertiboy

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 01:16 PM

Did I say '03?
I meant '05.

But that's beside the point.
The split timeline was not confirmed in '03. In fact, the only thing that was confirmed in '03 was that Adult Link did indeed defeat Ganon, and that that was not erased by the child ending of OoT. That the two endings were "parallel" was not confirmed until December of '06.


I see a lot of typing, but I don't see any quotes proving what you say. :D

Anyway, though the quotes from then clearly prove the split timeline back then, as well, in specific detail, this debate is about why someone would interpret the '02-'03 quotes to be inconsistent with the '06 quote when that clearly contradicts how the human mind unconsciously works. As I have proved with my kickball example, if the mind will subconsciously interpret two quotes to compliment one another if they can. The complements from '02, '03, and '06 can compliment each other, so I see no reason to adopt the interpretations that contradict one another, unless you are simply trying to be a thorn in the sides of those who are simply reiterating the official timeline to others who do not know.

I have no problem with people such as yourself who believe that the single timeline would have worked better than the split timeline back before games were made around the concept of the split, but I do have a problem when people try to pass it off as if it still has a chance at being official, especially after TWW and TP came out. People who still believe that the single is correct have a similar mindset to those who believe that the Holocaust never happened. Obviously, the Zelda timeline doesn't impact the world as much as the Holocaust did, which is why I said that it is a similar mindset, not the same. In both cases, there is all kind of evidence against a certain side (single timeline, Holocaust was an elaborate hoax), yet people still choose ignorance and old beliefs over hard, direct facts. I usually word some phrases wrong and accidentally insult people, but this is not one of those times. If you believe that the single timeline is the official timeline, then you are ignorant.

Even if you don't, and you merely think that the single timeline would have been a less complex explaination at one time, don't bring it here without clearly saying that is what you wish to discuss. This board is about the Zelda storyline and what is possible, not the Zelda storyline and what was possible. Yes, I agree that if the creators decided to stick with a single timeline, things may have been less complex. To be honest, though, the time in which Aonuma can say, "I lied when I said there was a split timeline. It's single," is long gone. Stop debating about the single timeline as if it were a fact. Yes, the split timeline is not perfect, but the single is a lot worse, especially if you figure TWW and TP into that equation. Ganon has been killed 5 times. He has only been revived in-game once, and he was killed shortly afterwards (that is included in the total of 5 deaths). No mention of a Ganon revival in a backstory has been made. How exactly would you address that? "He just keeps coming back, but nobody knows how. We can write fan fiction about it, but we can't actually prove it as a fact." What about the giant leap of faith that it takes to make the TWW -> ALttP connection? "Yes, Hyrule, the Triforce, the Master Sword, and Ganon himself were lost at the end of TWW, but then everything comes back and goes back to normal, just as if the flood never happened. That's our explaination." People who believe that a single timeline involving all games post-TWW would be less complicated than a split timeline clearly don't think everything through.

If I were to guess, off of the top of my head, the split timeline has just as many plotholes as the single timeline. If you want to sit down and count every single one of them out, be my guest, but it is irritating when people say that the single timeline has way less plotholes than the split.

That is why I am done replying to this particular thread. It seems pointless to me to talk about what could have been when we know what is official. I regret dignifying this thread with a response in the first place, and I also regret starting the thread "Why split, Aonma?" (which, BTW, I haven't visited in a while, except to post one sarcastic remark).

Edited by Vertiboy, 09 April 2007 - 05:06 PM.


#62 Chaltab

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 06:05 PM

It depends on why he is saying that. Is he saying it because he truly has changed his mind, or is he just saying it because he is just trying to make SW fans mad? Is he saying it for a completely different reason? Anyway, if Lucas truly changes his mind and wants AotC to come afte RotJ, then yes, I would accept it as fact. Even if he never makes any movie(s) bridging the gap between Ep. VI and I, if the creator wants to change his intent, then so be it.


Eugh... This is why I'll never accept creator interviews as the final word on timelines. (No offense, Vertiboy.)

#63 LionHarted

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:02 AM

Anyway, though the quotes from then clearly prove the split timeline back then, as well, in specific detail, this debate is about why someone would interpret the '02-'03 quotes to be inconsistent with the '06 quote when that clearly contradicts how the human mind unconsciously works.


The same reason why they'd interpret the "OoT is first" statement as being inconsistent with the "FS is the oldest tale" statement. One is not compatible, in the mindset of some people, with the other, therefore one or the other is wrong (usually the earlier statement). "TP is between OoT and TWW" does not outright prove a single timeline, but it keeps one plausible. If someone fully believes that a single timeline is the only possible solution, then it is impossible for the developers to make a statement that confirms it unless they use the words "split" or "timeline" while on-the-record, preferably both in succession, though not necessarily in that order.

If TWW was after the Adult ending, and TP is after the Child (disregarding all other facts), then either the two endings coexist in one timeline (the one happening after the other), or the one most recently stated is true for both (TP and TWW after the Child). Taking into account the storyline information presented along with the statement that TP was, indeed, after the Child ending, anyone who hoped to preserve a single timeline would have pursued the latter, obviously.

No matter the case, theorists are forced to declare one of the following statements as false:

1) TP is between OoT and TWW (split)
2) TWW is after the Adult ending (single)

Obviously if you religiously follow a single timeline, the choice would be an easy one for you, since neither has been explicitly confirmed or denied on-the-record as of yet. For people who understand the process involved, though, most of us know that the first is less likely to be still correct, since it was a statement about an unfinished game, as opposed to the latter, which was about a finished game.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 April 2007 - 02:03 AM.


#64 Vertiboy

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 06:19 PM

The same reason why they'd interpret the "OoT is first" statement as being inconsistent with the "FS is the oldest tale" statement.

Sorry it took a while to respond. I know that I said I was leaving this thread, but there is nothing else to debate, so I'll talk about this.

Those statements could be consistent. The "OoT is first" statement was the 5th Zelda game made. That was back in 1998. The "FS oldest tale" statement was made about 2002. Back in 1998, OoT may have been the first game, but, if the "FS oldest tale" statement is true, then it would be the first game as of 2002.

I don't know if you see the same problem, though but I don't think that the "FS oldest tale" quote is as reliable as the "OoT is first" statement because Aonuma wasn't that involved in making FS. He wasn't a writer.

That is why I don't see a problem with believing the Aonuma quotes regarding TWW and TP. He was the director of the games, so hopefully he would know what he is talking about.

Really, I don't see why the Aonuma Standard Split ( :D ) is so hard to believe. It merely involves the arc between OoT, MM, TWW, and TP. Personally, that's as far as I interpret that quote. I don't place TLoZ, TAoL, ALttP, or LA in either the child or adult timeline because there is no way of knowing where they go. I don't neccesarily believe that those games fit into the split timeline. Maybe Aonuma is ignoring them, meaning that they go in a separate Miyamoto timeline, along with OoT (meaning a split and gaiden timeline, making it even more confusing).

I don't see a problem though with people believing that the single timeline would have been the best explaination since it doesn't branch of into child, adult, and/or gaiden timelines. Even now, after TWW and TP have been released, even though they were structured around the split, if somone sees the logic in placing them in a single timeline, then I am not going to claim that they don't see that logic. I cannot judge what kind of logic that others find.

#65 The Missing Link

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 08:02 PM

Really, I don't see why the Aonuma Standard Split ( :D ) is so hard to believe.... I don't neccesarily believe that those games fit into the split timeline.

At least for me, you answered your own question. ;)

#66 Vertiboy

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 11:55 AM

At least for me, you answered your own question. ;)

That's where the debating gets harder. Did Aonuma completely ignore TLoZ through LA when writing MM? Did he start his own continuity, retconning the older games out?

When I said that those games didn't fit into the split timeline, I meant that there was no good place to put them. Back when they were made, there was (presumably) a single timeline without gaidens, splits, etc.

As far as OoT, MM, TWW, TP, and PH (which I forgot), I don't think that it is hard to believe a split timeline. As far as TLoZ, TAoL, ALttP, LA, and OoT, I don't think that it is hard to believe in a single timeline. As far as OoA, OoS, FS, FSA, and TMC, they could probably fit into both kinds of timelines or a continuity all their own.

The main reason I think that the original games are hard to fit into a split timeline is because of the Imprisoning War. If it is ever officially retconned from OoT to another event, then it is easier.

What I am wondering is how PH will play out in all of this. Is the Phantom Hourglass some kind of time travel device? Could Link use it to go back and prevent the flood, linking TWW to ALttP? None of that will probably happen, but I guess it is just wishful thinking.

That is why I believe the split and gaiden timeline, since ALttP cannot successfully be linked to any games in the child or adult timeline.

#67 Chaltab

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 03:42 PM

That is why I believe the split and gaiden timeline, since ALttP cannot successfully be linked to any games in the child or adult timeline.


Huh? ALTTP has a direct link to Ocarina, with the Imprisoning War, a possible link to FSA with the Trident, and the question of how the Triforce becomes whole again is solved by The Wind Waker.

#68 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 04:32 PM

Yea, but there's the whole "GANON IS DEAD" problem with both TWW and TP.

#69 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 05:03 PM

Yea, but there's the whole "GANON IS DEAD" problem with both TWW and TP.

So? Ganon died in ALttP and LoZ. In one of the two (usually LoZ) he has no origin to explain his appearance.

#70 The Missing Link

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 06:23 PM

So? Ganon died in ALttP and LoZ. In one of the two (usually LoZ) he has no origin to explain his appearance.

There's that whole thing about being put into the Dark World that, you know, doesn't happen in either of the timeline branches (sans it happening in OoT). In short, no one's saying LttP isn't linked in some way to OoT; they're saying LttP cannot be cleanly linked to the tail ends of the timeline branches (post-TP and post-WW).

#71 FDL

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 08:44 PM

Huh? ALTTP has a direct link to Ocarina, with the Imprisoning War, a possible link to FSA with the Trident, and the question of how the Triforce becomes whole again is solved by The Wind Waker.

And yet the "Ganondorf dead", "Master Sword buried under the sea", and "Hyrule and much of it's history obliterated" questions are opened. It's just dumb to feel as though ALttP has to be after adult OoT because there are many unanswered questions and it limits many things. I'm not saying it's definetly after TP but if you think that's not just as possible then you're overlooking some stuff.

#72 GuardianNinja

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:09 PM

I hope this shuts up winy bastards about the time line yes END OF ****ING STORY!!! If you don't shut up after watching these then Nothing will convince you and I will kill you!!!


THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 1!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 2!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 3!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 4!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 5!!!
now... shut up kk... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Edited by GuardianNinja, 24 April 2007 - 09:20 PM.


#73 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:18 PM

And yet the "Ganondorf dead", "Master Sword buried under the sea", and "Hyrule and much of it's history obliterated" questions are opened.

Which is about the same as the "Ganondorf dead", "Triforce in pieces", and "No Seal War history at all" problems, if you think about it.

#74 GuardianNinja

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:22 PM

^^^^Real time line above people shut up please damn it ^^^^
^^^^In my first post^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited by GuardianNinja, 24 April 2007 - 09:23 PM.


#75 FDL

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:24 PM

I hope this shuts up winy bastards about the time line yes END OF ****ING STORY!!! If you don't shut up after watching these then Nothing will convince you and I will kill you!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 1!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 2!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 3!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 4!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 5!!!
now... shut up kk... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


No.

Which is about the same as the "Ganondorf dead", "Triforce in pieces", and "No Seal War history at all" problems, if you think about it.


Almost. But it still leaves it as basically the same and the fact that TP has many references to ALttP and even ends with the MS in the woods counts for something I think.

#76 GuardianNinja

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:27 PM

did u watch all of them


No.


finish watching them and then say something god...

#77 FDL

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:31 PM

Why are you here? Those videos are old and have no proof or extra info. They're just as correct as the theories of anyone here.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 24 April 2007 - 09:32 PM.


#78 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:36 PM

But it still leaves it as basically the same and the fact that TP has many references to ALttP and even ends with the MS in the woods counts for something I think.

Name one storyline reference TP has to ALttP (not the Imprisoning War).

Edited by LionHarted, 24 April 2007 - 09:37 PM.


#79 GuardianNinja

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:42 PM

yea right Fierce Deity Link yea right it connects just about everything u need to know to win this argument and don't quote "just about" like a bastard :angry:

#80 The Missing Link

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 12:43 AM

I hope this shuts up winy bastards about the time line yes END OF ****ING STORY!!! If you don't shut up after watching these then Nothing will convince you and I will kill you!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 1!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 2!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 3!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 4!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 5!!!
now... shut up kk... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

First off... the retrospective you mention doesn't even talk timeline... until Part 6, which you failed to include here. Part 6 was, ironically solely about the timeline, in which they put forth their best guess--note the word guess here--at constructing a timeline. They even admit they're guessing to boot.

Not withstanding that, the rest of the retrospective, what you linked, is just a discussion about the Zelda games in order of creation, starting back in 1986 and moving forward to 2006. This was created as a tribute to the two decades of Zelda leading up to Twilight Princess. It's not a discussion about timeline whatsoever.

Therefore, maybe you should watch the sixth part of the retrospective and understand why what you're saying doesn't apply.

#81 Arturo

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 08:57 AM

I hope this shuts up winy bastards about the time line yes END OF ****ING STORY!!! If you don't shut up after watching these then Nothing will convince you and I will kill you!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 1!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 2!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 3!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 4!!!
THE REAL ZELDA TIME LINE PART 5!!!
now... shut up kk... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


I have watched all of them. And the timeline chapter is full of mistakes. I could tell you where all of them are. But I won't. Because I have better things to do.

I am a moderator of this Forum, and you cannot come and insult other members just like this. You simply can't. Also, use an understandable grammar and don't kill my eyes by using a million of emoticons. They are annoying.

Read the Rules of the Board

Oh boy.

#82 Vertiboy

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:22 PM

Huh? ALTTP has a direct link to Ocarina, with the Imprisoning War, a possible link to FSA with the Trident, and the question of how the Triforce becomes whole again is solved by The Wind Waker.

I should have been more specific. ALttP connects to OoT, but it cannot be connected to MM, TWW, or TP. It cannot officially fit into the split timeline.

#83 FDL

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:15 PM

Name one storyline reference TP has to ALttP (not the Imprisoning War).


Master Swrd placement, Sages, and many, many things in common with the manual. And TWW doesn't have any at all if I remember correctly.

yea right Fierce Deity Link yea right it connects just about everything u need to know to win this argument and don't quote "just about" like a bastard :angry:


It's a guess, and most of the people here probably know more about the timeline than the people on this site. Oh, yeah, "just about". Whatever that means.

#84 LionHarted

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:27 PM

So just one? (Master Sword placement)

Since, you know, everything else you're talking about has to do with events not exclusive to TP, much less its timeline, most of them related to a time before OoT.

Of course, TWW has a few as well.

1) Triforce is whole.
2) Sacred Realm was actually sealed.
3) Long ears apparently scarce (blood of the Hylians thinned in ALttP).
4) Sage powers inherited through bloodline.
5) Ganondorf kidnapping maidens.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 April 2007 - 06:31 PM.


#85 FDL

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:45 AM

So just one? (Master Sword placement)

Since, you know, everything else you're talking about has to do with events not exclusive to TP, much less its timeline, most of them related to a time before OoT.


Um, the words of the Triforce for one? Plus, in TWW everyone has forgotten almost everything about Hyrule that ALttP references from OoT and TP.

Of course, TWW has a few as well.

1) Triforce is whole.
2) Sacred Realm was actually sealed.
3) Long ears apparently scarce (blood of the Hylians thinned in ALttP).
4) Sage powers inherited through bloodline.
5) Ganondorf kidnapping maidens.


1. The state of the Triforce is incredibly ambiguous in the end of TWW.
2.And said seal was broken in TWW's backstory.
3.Good point, but in ALttP this was going on in Hyrule and people were aware of Hyrule's history, which isn't so in TWW.
4.Not the same Sages, though. The Sages who sealed up Ganondorf in OoT appear to be long gone, including their bloodlines.
5.For an entirely different reason.

And atleast TP doesn't have a few things that are jarringly not in accordance with a TWW-ALttP connection like the seal being made and then broken, the Master Sword being underwater, and Hyrule being utterly destroyed.

#86 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 11:48 AM

1) Triforce is whole.
2) Sacred Realm was actually sealed.
3) Long ears apparently scarce (blood of the Hylians thinned in ALttP).
4) Sage powers inherited through bloodline.
5) Ganondorf kidnapping maidens.


1) Says Who?
2) Says Who?
3) What else is new?
4) Says Who?
5) Again, what else is new?

#87 LionHarted

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 01:08 PM

1) Says Who?
So the king wished on it when it wasn't whole, and something different happened to it when he died than what happened to it when Ganon died in ALttP?

2) Says Who?
It was sealed in OoT. It was never sealed in the Child timeline as far as we know.

3) What else is new?
It's not the case in TP.

4) Says Who?
Says both the sages. :/

5) Again, what else is new?
Not the case in TP, once again.


1. The state of the Triforce is incredibly ambiguous in the end of TWW.
Same situation as ALttP. Person touches whole Triforce, makes wish, dies. I'll go with the precedent, thank you.

2.And said seal was broken in TWW's backstory.
I'm still waiting for a quote on this.

3.Good point, but in ALttP this was going on in Hyrule and people were aware of Hyrule's history, which isn't so in TWW.
Who said people aren't aware of Hyrule's history in TWW? "Its legend survived on the wind's breath."

4.Not the same Sages, though. The Sages who sealed up Ganondorf in OoT appear to be long gone, including their bloodlines.
Point? That's a reference to ALttP that doesn't appear in TP, which was what I was listing.

5.For an entirely different reason.
See above.

Edited by LionHarted, 26 April 2007 - 01:10 PM.


#88 FDL

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 02:46 PM

1. The state of the Triforce is incredibly ambiguous in the end of TWW.
Same situation as ALttP. Person touches whole Triforce, makes wish, dies. I'll go with the precedent, thank you.

2.And said seal was broken in TWW's backstory.
I'm still waiting for a quote on this.

3.Good point, but in ALttP this was going on in Hyrule and people were aware of Hyrule's history, which isn't so in TWW.
Who said people aren't aware of Hyrule's history in TWW? "Its legend survived on the wind's breath."

4.Not the same Sages, though. The Sages who sealed up Ganondorf in OoT appear to be long gone, including their bloodlines.
Point? That's a reference to ALttP that doesn't appear in TP, which was what I was listing.

5.For an entirely different reason.
See above.


1. The King appears to have already been dead, and the Triforce splits into three and flies off into different directions IIRC. That's nothing like ALttP.
2. Oh, please. It was broken. Give it a rest. If you want a quote you'll have to ask Arturo 'cause he's the one who said there was a quote. But even if there wasn't, he broke the damn seal.
3. The game says it. Just play the game. All indications given are that it's culture is gone(people no longer aware of the Triforce, Hylian a dead language, the misconceptions about the HoT, etc.)
4. No, it's not the same thing at all.
5. Again, no, it's not a reference to ALttP. It's a similarity and nothing else.

#89 LionHarted

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 03:15 PM

1. The King appears to have already been dead, and the Triforce splits into three and flies off into different directions IIRC. That's nothing like ALttP.
Which is why we use this thing called "interpretation."

2. Oh, please. It was broken. Give it a rest. If you want a quote you'll have to ask Arturo 'cause he's the one who said there was a quote. But even if there wasn't, he broke the damn seal.
He escaped the seal of the gods (the flood) without breaking it. Why can't he escape the Sacred Realm seal without breaking it? I should think escaping the seal of the gods would be more difficult.

3. The game says it. Just play the game. All indications given are that it's culture is gone(people no longer aware of the Triforce, Hylian a dead language, the misconceptions about the HoT, etc.)
Yes. And how much of the culture is known in ALttP, besides an apparent resurgence of interest in the Triforce/Golden Land/sage bloodlines? (none of which seem to be of any interest in TP, either)

4. No, it's not the same thing at all.
Having sage bloodlines isn't a reference to the idea that there are sage bloodlines?

5. Again, no, it's not a reference to ALttP. It's a similarity and nothing else.
That they are called "maidens" is a throwback, regardless.

Similar, I'd say, to the Master Sword being in a pedestal in the woods.

#90 FDL

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 08:06 PM

1. The King appears to have already been dead, and the Triforce splits into three and flies off into different directions IIRC. That's nothing like ALttP.
Which is why we use this thing called "interpretation."

2. Oh, please. It was broken. Give it a rest. If you want a quote you'll have to ask Arturo 'cause he's the one who said there was a quote. But even if there wasn't, he broke the damn seal.
He escaped the seal of the gods (the flood) without breaking it. Why can't he escape the Sacred Realm seal without breaking it? I should think escaping the seal of the gods would be more difficult.

3. The game says it. Just play the game. All indications given are that it's culture is gone(people no longer aware of the Triforce, Hylian a dead language, the misconceptions about the HoT, etc.)
Yes. And how much of the culture is known in ALttP, besides an apparent resurgence of interest in the Triforce/Golden Land/sage bloodlines? (none of which seem to be of any interest in TP, either)

4. No, it's not the same thing at all.
Having sage bloodlines isn't a reference to the idea that there are sage bloodlines?

5. Again, no, it's not a reference to ALttP. It's a similarity and nothing else.
That they are called "maidens" is a throwback, regardless.

Similar, I'd say, to the Master Sword being in a pedestal in the woods.


1. You can't really use interpretation as an argument, though. I could say Vaati is Link's father and when people gave proof otherwise I could just cry "interpretation". That wouldn't make it correct.

2. Well, for one, if he didn't break the seal and later went back in ALttP's backstory I don't see why he could escape in the same way. Also, those two seals are completely different. I mean, we can't be sure the properties are at all the same because it's never said. Oh yeah, and if this was just some spectre of Ganon as is impied about the other seal why wouldn't he jus dispel said fake Ganon when he was nearly killed?

3. Ugh, it's backstory mentions specifically that people are still researching these old legends even after all these years, and many people recal legends to you in-game.

4. Not when the Sages aren't related at all, and what not. The Sages in TP are actually more similar.

5. I don't think they were ever called maidens. And, again, in one case we have girls being sacrificed to break a seal and in another we have a specific girl being searched for with others mistakenly being captured instead.




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