Retcon?The Link of TP would have had no idea where the Temple of Time really was. I mean, sure you can argue that the Temple was somehow moved, but why?
There doesn't have to be a reason, does there?
Posted 06 April 2007 - 12:20 PM
Retcon?The Link of TP would have had no idea where the Temple of Time really was. I mean, sure you can argue that the Temple was somehow moved, but why?
Posted 06 April 2007 - 12:50 PM
Small point, but this isn't the case. Ganon escapes from the Dark World before the flood. Those windows could have been made after his escape and before the flood.
So the Door of Time is open in the ending. There's pehaps a fifteen second time window in between Link opening the Door of Time and pulling the Master Sword, thus making it not be "moved" from the Temple of Time. I will also add that child Link is in the Temple of Time during this entire spiel, is rather conscious.
So if I understand you correctly, when the split happens, Link would HAVE to return during this brief time span and most likely reinhabit Link's body. However, this is not doing what Zelda intended, for Link to return the Master Sword and close the pathways of time forever. In fact, the path of time was never opened, and I don't believe that's what the ending of Ocarina of Time was trying to say. (This is beside the point that Ganondorf is closely watching Link just outside and is just yearning to grab the Triforce once Link does this... which Link isn't going to do.)
The question that I keep asking--and nobody has explained with enough verbage to make it crystal clear--is WHERE this sword that "already exists" in the child timeline comes from. So tell me if I'm reading between the lines properly or not because that's what it appears you're saying.
But the Master Sword is nowhere near the Temple of Time in Twlight Princess.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 01:06 PM
The Master Sword in TWW serves as a seal on Hyrule, and on Ganon's power.Why would they create a shrine celebrating the sealing of Ganon after Ganon has escaped that seal?
Posted 06 April 2007 - 01:18 PM
The Master Sword in TWW serves as a seal on Hyrule
Posted 06 April 2007 - 01:23 PM
It's subtle.When was this mentioned?
The Master Sword, while in the pedestal, did the following:By the way, boy... When you drew that
sword of yours out of its pedestal...
Did you by chance notice how all of the
monsters frozen in time down there
suddenly began stirring again?
Do you understand precisely what that
means? ...I highly doubt you do.
Foolish child. While that sword is indeed
the blade of evil's bane, at the same time,
it has long played another role...
You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!
By withdrawing the blade, you have
broken that seal...
Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2007 - 01:23 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 02:20 PM
Posted 06 April 2007 - 02:40 PM
This isn't a good analogy because there is no logic at all in re-ordering the Star Wars films. Each of them makes a clear and obvious progression into the next.
Edited by Vertiboy, 06 April 2007 - 04:03 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 04:53 PM
Isn't the implication that both the Master Sword and Link's body are brought to the Sacred Realm after he draws it the first time? Which means that if Link goes back after he first draws it, the Master Sword is already in the sacred realm and on it's way to the future, or if the timeline does split, the Adult Timeline.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 04:59 PM
The fact of the matter is that he is incorrect, whether he has a logical reason or not.While he is intitled to his own opinion, the fact of the matter is that the movies were structured around that order.
Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2007 - 05:00 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 05:06 PM
The fact of the matter is that he is incorrect, whether he has a logical reason or not.
The films do happen in that order.
Edited by Vertiboy, 06 April 2007 - 05:10 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 05:17 PM
Meh. Twice that I know of, one of which we didn't have an actual quote for.Aonuma has confirmed it multiple times.
Actually, it is possible for a single timeline to still work, if this Aonuma statement is viewed as invalidating the previous that TWW is after the adult ending specifically. It would be speculative beyond belief, but without reaffirming that TWW is indeed after the adult events in that interview, one could interpret "parallel" as "occurring alongside". Most single-timeliners who still practice take that approach.He even went into great detail, saying that after Link returned from the adult timeline, he talked to Zelda about Ganondorf, etc. The split timeline is a fact.
Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2007 - 05:18 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 05:36 PM
Actually, it is possible for a single timeline to still work, if this Aonuma statement is viewed as invalidating the previous that TWW is after the adult ending specifically.
It would be speculative beyond belief, but without reaffirming that TWW is indeed after the adult events in that interview, one could interpret "parallel" as "occurring alongside".
Posted 06 April 2007 - 05:54 PM
1) Single-timeliners can now claim that Adult OoT doesn't carry into other games. Without specific errors in "fact" (that is, things we can prove).How can it be viewed that way?
That would mean Twilight Princess and The Wind Waker both took place at the same time. I hope I don't have to point out how absurd such an idea is with a single timeline.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 06:05 PM
2) No. That would mean that Twilight Princess is TWW's parallel. The events that close TP would end, and a string of events that lead into TWW would begin. The ending of TP would then be "parallel" to TWW.
Of course, if you take both interviews into account, then it's obviously that "parallel" means "after the other ending."
Posted 06 April 2007 - 06:06 PM
Actually, it is possible for a single timeline to still work, if this Aonuma statement is viewed as invalidating the previous that TWW is after the adult ending specifically.
The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time.
Edited by Vertiboy, 06 April 2007 - 06:08 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 06:41 PM
having the same direction, course, nature, or tendency
In an '03 interview, he said TP came between OoT and TWW.In the '03 interview, he said TWW was hundreds of years after the adult OoT ending.
Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2007 - 06:42 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 06:59 PM
You took those words out of context from the whole description.having the same direction, course, nature, or tendency
Posted 06 April 2007 - 07:18 PM
If he did, then you should have no trouble finding a quote to prove it...In an '03 interview, he said TP came between OoT and TWW.
Edited by Vertiboy, 06 April 2007 - 07:20 PM.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 07:23 PM
Small point, but this isn't the case. Ganon escapes from the Dark World before the flood. Those windows could have been made after his escape and before the flood.
How does that prove anything? The Link of TP would have had no idea where the Temple of Time really was. I mean, sure you can argue that the Temple was somehow moved, but why? I suppose the Sacred Grove is a more secure location, but since Link took the Ocarina to Termina, there was no way past the Door of Time.
Posted 06 April 2007 - 09:13 PM
Edited by Vertiboy, 06 April 2007 - 09:17 PM.
Posted 07 April 2007 - 12:44 AM
Let's see:Well, there's no proof that it's not. The portal Link goes through could just as easily have led him to the same place the Temple was in Ocarina. But the Master Sword is nowhere near the Temple of Time in Twlight Princess.
That's precisely my point.Yes, the more we analyze this, the less sense it makes.
*sigh* Even after making clever diagrams, people still don't understand what I'm trying to say. Even worse, no one is still explaining the one thing I want explained.Huh? You're making this more complicated than it is. I'm not entirely sure what it is you're even asking.
Posted 07 April 2007 - 02:00 AM
CASE I: X > A.
From the perspective of the normal flow of time:
Time 0: Link opens the Door of Time.
Time A: Link enters the Temple of Time and draws the Master Sword. The Master Sword should now be in the Sacred Realm with Link.
Time X: Link appears by the Master Sword in the Temple of Time. Contradiction since the sword isn't there???
Posted 07 April 2007 - 04:27 AM
Thank you. That is precisely what I wanted to hear.The explanation for the contradiction is the same for the explanation for Link being in the Temple of Time rather than the Sacred Realm, since the Master Sword has been in his hands since Time A. There are a few explanations I can use, which I mentioned in my last post, but the main one is that Link's body (along with the Master Sword) was returned to the Temple of Time the moment his spirit arrived (Link is transported to and from the Sacred Realm all the time, so this trip couldn't be that hard.)
Except Link wouldn't have the Ocarina of Time any more since he gave it to the future Zelda.We can also simply say Majora's Mask time travel laws apply here, which means that there will never be more than one Link and any objects that were in his possession at the point he was sent back from will find its way to him at the point in time he was sent to (meaning there would be no Master Sword in the Temple of Time back in Ocarina of Time, and no Hero's Bow in the chest in Woodfall Temple.)
Posted 07 April 2007 - 05:08 AM
Posted 07 April 2007 - 12:08 PM
For you. However, I cannot argue with results; I got precisely what I wanted the moment I used it.TML, please stop using algebra. Dear god please stop. My brain switches off every time I see it. Nothing in Zelda is complex enough that algebra is needed to make things simpler. You're just making things more confusing.
Posted 07 April 2007 - 04:38 PM
Except Link wouldn't have the Ocarina of Time any more since he gave it to the future Zelda. ;)
Posted 07 April 2007 - 06:23 PM
It is also possible for the original SW to come before the prequels if you view any statements by Lucas and others as invalid.
Also, he has confirmed it more than twice. He made similar comments about TWW back in 2002 and/or 2003. Aonuma is the director of the games. If he does not know the timeline order of the games, then the timeline is screwed. However, Aonuma has expressed interest in games' stories.
If I was, for whatever reason, basing a single timeline on Aonuma's statements, that analogy might make sense and I would be crazy.Let's play a game. I will describe a kickball that I am picturing in my head, and we will see what you picture in your head. The kickball is large. In your head, you are probably picturing a large kickball that is maybe 2-3 times bigger than an average one. Now let me make another statement about the kickball. The kickball is not tiny. Did the image of the kickball change? Unless you have a different thought process than other humans, then no, it did not. The latter statement only worked to reinforce the first one. They were complementary statements. They do not contradict one another. If your thought process always follows the same logic that you do when you say the two Aonuma quotes contradict one another, then maybe the kickball changed in your head. I said that the kickball was not tiny. The image in your head could have changed from a large kickball to an average sized kickball. After all, an average sized kickball is not tiny. The goal of this game wasn't to successfully picture the same image as I did. The goal of the game was to show you that, most of the time, if two statements can complement one another, a person's mind will interpret them that way.
This can't be right! I am in denial because what I have believed to be true for a long time has been proven false. As a defense mechanism, I will scrutinize every little detail of Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and the Aonuma quote to find a way to secure and justify my beliefs in my own mind. What is this? It seems as if I can interpret this 'parellel' quote in a way which would make it inconsistent with the earlier Aonuma quote. Also, the director and developer quotes have been wrong in the past. Aonuma said that The Wind Waker was going to be the first Zelda story, and it wasn't. I can use this to my advantage and say that I distrust all Aonuma statements since he has been wrong in the past. Yes, this is a great defense mechanism, and I will utilize it."
In other words, people are fooling themselves into thinking that the single timeline could still be official in order to avoid being hurt. You may think that's BS, but this is the kind of basic information that anyone can learn by merely taking high school level psychology. Defense mechanisms are pretty easy to recognize.
Posted 07 April 2007 - 08:14 PM
*sigh* I don't care what is "official"--Aonuma can program whatever he wants to program into a game. Official or not, the timeline as Aonuma described it is flawed.
Not to mention you're basically saying that people who still argue for a split timeline are weak-minded fools trying to prevent emotional trauma. That's insulting to say the least.
If George Lucas came out and said that Attack of the Clones took place after Return of the Jedi, would you accept it as fact?
Posted 09 April 2007 - 10:29 AM
Did I say '03?If he did, then you should have no trouble finding a quote to prove it...
This isn't my interpretation, which you'd know if you read my earlier posts, I imagine. This is the interpretation of stubborn people who won't let go of their single timelines.You took those words out of context from the whole description.
Could be sky.That's actually a good point. I think that may be true, because in the stain glass I think it shows water above Ganon.
Your description of Time X here could just as easily describe any of his other trips to the past.Time X: Link appears by the Master Sword in the Temple of Time. Contradiction since the sword isn't there???
Posted 09 April 2007 - 11:32 AM
Which means that Ganondorf totally has the Triforce of Power and Zelda so shouldn't be in the castle because, you know, her life is at stake here.Your description of Time X here could just as easily describe any of his other trips to the past.