158 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

1. You can't really use interpretation as an argument, though.

The king being dead is your interpretation, not an argument.

Yes, that's what I was saying.


2. Well, for one, if he didn't break the seal and later went back in ALttP's backstory I don't see why he could escape in the same way...
-- Not the same Ganon.

...Also, those two seals are completely different.
-- Circular reasoning?

I mean, we can't be sure the properties are at all the same because it's never said.
-- Seven sages; seal on the Sacred Realm. That's all we're told, in both cases.

Oh yeah, and if this was just some spectre of Ganon as is impied about the other seal why wouldn't he jus dispel said fake Ganon when he was nearly killed?
-- Never said that.


3. Ugh, it's backstory mentions specifically that people are still researching these old legends even after all these years, and many people recal legends to you in-game.

Yeah.

Gee.

That's what I said. :/


4. Not when the Sages aren't related at all, and what not. The Sages in TP are actually more similar.

What?

5. I don't think they were ever called maidens. And, again, in one case we have girls being sacrificed to break a seal and in another we have a specific girl being searched for with others mistakenly being captured instead.

Yes. They were. Play the game beyond the main story. Talk to NPCs. You tend to learn a lot that way.

Edited by LionHarted, 26 April 2007 - 09:51 PM.

[The Missing Link]

Regarding the seal:

KING OF RED LIONS
I suppose you saw him... The shadow that commands that monstrous bird... His name is...Ganon... He... who obtained the power of the gods, attempted to cover the land in darkness and was ultimately sealed away by the very power he hoped to command. He is the very same Ganon... The emperor of the dark realm the ancient legends speak of... I do not know why the seal of the gods has failed, but now that Ganon has returned, the world is once again being threatened by his evil magic. Tell me, Link... Do you still wish to save your sister from him? (emphasis mine)

[LionHarted]

I do not know why the seal of the gods has failed, but now that Ganon has returned, the world is once again being threatened by his evil magic.

He's referring to Ganon's return in the present.

Which means from the flood seal, which is not the sages' seal.

The seal of the gods
which failed to contain him, for whatever reason
but we know it is still active.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 April 2007 - 01:12 AM.

[The Missing Link]

Which means from the flood seal, which is not the sages' seal.

And you've got a quote to back it up, I presume?

[LionHarted]

And you've got a quote to back it up, I presume?

Your own quote. He's referring to the present threat.

The "sages' seal" is not the "seal of the gods", sir. If that was his intention, he would not have referred to him as being sealed away "by the very power he hoped to command" (the power of the gods), but as being sealed away by the hero, as the legends say.

Remember, Ganon had already escaped the Sacred Realm long, long before he began to threaten the Great Sea. Hundreds of years, in fact. And once he escaped his prison below the waves (the seal the king would have to be referring to), then he managed to become a threat once again.

[The Missing Link]

Your own quote. He's referring to the present threat.

The "sages' seal" is not the "seal of the gods", sir. If that was his intention, he would not have referred to him as being sealed away "by the very power he hoped to command" (the power of the gods), but as being sealed away by the hero, as the legends say.

Let's parse sentences, shall we:

I do not know why the seal [that] the gods [made] has failed...
I do not know why the [Sage's] seal [that] the gods [blessed] has failed...

Metaphor runs rampant. Show than the second interpretation is invalid, and since you're attempting to disprove an alternate interpretation, you'll need to use a different quote to do so.

Remember, Ganon had already escaped the Sacred Realm long, long before he began to threaten the Great Sea. Hundreds of years, in fact. And once he escaped his prison below the waves (the seal the king would have to be referring to), then he managed to become a threat once again.

Let's ponder this.

(1) The Sages sealed Ganondorf within the Sacred Realm. This is known from Rauru's quote: "The Sages' Seals will contain all the evil power in the void of the Realm..."

(2) Ganondorf escaped the Sacred Realm in Wind Waker. (I certainly hope I don't have to prove this.)

Now, let us investigate the word "seal" as used by Ocarina of Time to divine a meaning for it.

ZELDA
But the entrance [to the Sacred Realm] is sealed with a stone wall called the Door of Time.

GORON IN FRONT OF DODONGO'S CAVERN
On top of that, a Gerudo in black armor used his magic to seal the entrance with that boulder!

DARUNIA
Nothing has made me happier than helping you seal the evil [of the Fire Temple] here!

SHEIK
With one exception, the Zoras are all now sealed under this thick ice sheet...

SHEIK
Impa, the leader of Kakariko Village, had sealed the evil shadow spirit in the bottom of the well.... But the force of the evil spirit got so strong, the seal of the well broke, and it escaped into the world!!

ZELDA
After you opened the door of time, the Master Sword sealed you away in the Sacred Realm...

Each of these quotes include the word "seal," and over them all we can come up with the intended connotation. Each of these talks about some sort of barrier--whether it be physical or metaphorical--to keep something separate from something else. The Sacred Realm was kept separate from Hyrule, Dodongo's Cavern was kept separate from the Gorons, the evil of the Fire Temple was kept separate from the rest of the world, the Zoras were kept separate (contained from) the rest of the world, Bongo Bongo was kept separate from Kakariko, and Link was kept separate from the flow of time in Hyrule. All of these references have a common thread. Therefore:

(3) Because of (1) and the intended connotation of the word "seal," the Sage's seal was intended to keep Ganondorf from Hyrule.

But we know that didn't happen forever. However it happened, Ganondorf broke out of the Sacred Realm to attempt to conquer the world. Certainly he didn't have his power because of the Master Sword--indeed, some other seal altogether apparently, he got out. This violates what the intention of the seal was; Zelda even mentions herself that the seal isn't going to hold forever: "Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again reign in this world...for a time" (emphasis mine). Thus, there is an easy conclusion:

(4) Because (2) opposes (3), it is obvious that the seal mentioned within (3) failed.

Of course, you can look at this in two ways:

(5a) Ganondorf physically broke the seal.
(5b) Ganondorf found a way around the seal, thus making it seal imperfect.

Logically speaking, at least one of (5a) and (5b) must be true.

You, so far, have shown a case for (5b). So let's add that to the court record.

(6) (5b) is possibly true.

However, (5b) being true says nothing about (5a) since they're are not mutually exclusive statements; all that is guaranteed is that at least one is true. Thus, we give the benefit of the doubt to (5a) since it has not been disproven.

(7) (5a) is possibly true.

If (5a) is true, then (5b) need not be true. So,

(8) By (7) and (5), (5b) need not be true.
(9) By (8), (5b) is not fact.

Therefore, as of present, you're using interpretive spin and guestimation to say that you cannot be proven wrong. But that doesn't mean you've gotten a proof to prove anyone else wrong either.

[LionHarted]

I do not know why the seal [that] the gods [made] has failed...
I do not know why the [Sage's] seal [that] the gods [blessed] has failed...

Ganondorf escaped the sages' seal and was sealed again by the gods during the flood before The Wind Waker. Tell me, why would the King continue to refer to a seal that he knows Ganon had already escaped hundreds of years, instead of the other more recent seal, which Ganon seems to have only recently escaped?

(2) Ganondorf escaped the Sacred Realm in Wind Waker.

Ganondorf escaped the Sacred Realm long before Wind Waker. The people prayed for the return of the Hero of Time, who did not come; Hyrule had to be flooded and sealed in time; the Master Sword came to serve as a seal on the kingdom and on Ganondorf's power. Ringing any bells?

Of course, you can look at this in two ways:

(5a) Ganondorf physically broke the seal.
(5b) Ganondorf found a way around the seal, thus making it seal imperfect.

(1) "Seal of the gods" is not broken until you withdraw the Master Sword. (Stated by Ganondorf.)
(2) Ganondorf is not sealed long before you draw the Master Sword. (Obviously; you encounter him in the Forsaken Fortress before obtaining it.)
(3) Ganondorf escaped "seal of the gods" without "seal of the gods" being broken.

[FDL]

1. You can't really use interpretation as an argument, though.

The king being dead is your interpretation, not an argument.

Yes, that's what I was saying.
2. Well, for one, if he didn't break the seal and later went back in ALttP's backstory I don't see why he could escape in the same way...
-- Not the same Ganon.

...Also, those two seals are completely different.
-- Circular reasoning?

I mean, we can't be sure the properties are at all the same because it's never said.
-- Seven sages; seal on the Sacred Realm. That's all we're told, in both cases.

Oh yeah, and if this was just some spectre of Ganon as is impied about the other seal why wouldn't he jus dispel said fake Ganon when he was nearly killed?
-- Never said that.
3. Ugh, it's backstory mentions specifically that people are still researching these old legends even after all these years, and many people recal legends to you in-game.

Yeah.

Gee.

That's what I said. :/
4. Not when the Sages aren't related at all, and what not. The Sages in TP are actually more similar.

What?

5. I don't think they were ever called maidens. And, again, in one case we have girls being sacrificed to break a seal and in another we have a specific girl being searched for with others mistakenly being captured instead.

Yes. They were. Play the game beyond the main story. Talk to NPCs. You tend to learn a lot that way.

1. There is evidence for the King being dead or not an entirely normal entity.

2. Give me one reason why he's not the same Ganon. You apparently have selective canon if you think he isn't.

3. No, you said we don't know what people know. We do, to an extent.

4. The sages aren't the same.

5. I don't think that's true.

(1) "Seal of the gods" is not broken until you withdraw the Master Sword. (Stated by Ganondorf.)
(2) Ganondorf is not sealed long before you draw the Master Sword. (Obviously; you encounter him in the Forsaken Fortress before obtaining it.)
(3) Ganondorf escaped "seal of the gods" without "seal of the gods" being broken.

You're wrong, because he hadn't actually escaped the seal. He didn't have any power, as he himself says, until Link actually broke the seal.

[BourgeoisJerry]

You're wrong, because he hadn't actually escaped the seal. He didn't have any power, as he himself says, until Link actually broke the seal.

His power was still sealed, but that didn't stop him from "seeping into the unsuspecting world above." Also, he never said he had no power, he simply said that the Master Sword was a key that "has kept a seal on me and my magic intact!" He did mention his power being restored, but Ganon's curse on Greatfish Isle happened before Link pulled the Master Sword. In the Great Deku Tree's words, "Could he already be regaining his power?" I suppose nobody actually says that Ganondorf has any power, they just "suppose this, too, is the work of the shadow in Forsaken Fortress." Either way, we know the Ganondorf up top wasn't a fake, because we saw how Ganondorf got up top, and "the portal through which Ganon was able to seep into the unsuspecting world above" physically took Link back above the sea.

In short, Ganondorf found a way around the seal without actually breaking it.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 27 April 2007 - 01:57 PM.

[Fyxe]

Um, Ganondorf CLEARLY had some power before the seal was broken, a fairly considerable amount. Remember, he destroyed Greatfish Isle and cursed the entire Great Sea. He also had Phantom Ganon working for him and could survive Valoo burning his house down. And he created the gateway between Ganon's Tower and the Forsaken Fortress in the first place.

His sealed magic for the most part seemed centered around Hyrule and Hyrule Castle.

[Hero of Legend]

He also had Phantom Ganon working for him and could survive Valoo burning his house down.

Nitpicky, but those things happened after the seal had been broken. In fact, I was just about to point out that the fact that we don't see Phantom Ganon until after the seal has been undone might hold some significance.

But yeah, either way Ganondorf clearly had considerable powers before Link pulled the Master Sword.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 27 April 2007 - 02:39 PM.

[FDL]

His power was still sealed, but that didn't stop him from "seeping into the unsuspecting world above." Also, he never said he had no power, he simply said that the Master Sword was a key that "has kept a seal on me and my magic intact!" He did mention his power being restored, but Ganon's curse on Greatfish Isle happened before Link pulled the Master Sword. In the Great Deku Tree's words, "Could he already be regaining his power?" I suppose nobody actually says that Ganondorf has any power, they just "suppose this, too, is the work of the shadow in Forsaken Fortress." Either way, we know the Ganondorf up top wasn't a fake, because we saw how Ganondorf got up top, and "the portal through which Ganon was able to seep into the unsuspecting world above" physically took Link back above the sea.

In short, Ganondorf found a way around the seal without actually breaking it.

But not entirely, which was my point. He may have had some power, but he himself says that there was still a seal which was limiting him. That's not debateable.

Um, Ganondorf CLEARLY had some power before the seal was broken, a fairly considerable amount. Remember, he destroyed Greatfish Isle and cursed the entire Great Sea. He also had Phantom Ganon working for him and could survive Valoo burning his house down. And he created the gateway between Ganon's Tower and the Forsaken Fortress in the first place.

His sealed magic for the most part seemed centered around Hyrule and Hyrule Castle.

Well for one two of your examples are from after he's unsealed and secondly there's nothing that's stated about it only involving Hyrule. He says himself his magic was sealed, and it so it was. He also says HE was sealed so he didn't actually get out of the seal completely without Link breaking it. If you want to apply the TWW seal's properties to the OoT seal then you'd have to realze that he would be limited in some way. Plus, I don't get how you could argue that Ganondorf seemed limited in TWW in order to "prove" that ALttP comes after it and then completely contradict yourself when it's convenient to argue another point of that theory.

[The Missing Link]

Ganondorf escaped the Sacred Realm long before Wind Waker. The people prayed for the return of the Hero of Time, who did not come; Hyrule had to be flooded and sealed in time; the Master Sword came to serve as a seal on the kingdom and on Ganondorf's power. Ringing any bells?

Water under the bridge. I said "in Wind Waker" to say that it was referenced in Wind Waker. I know more Zelda timeline history than you're giving me credit here.

(1) "Seal of the gods" is not broken until you withdraw the Master Sword. (Stated by Ganondorf.)
(2) Ganondorf is not sealed long before you draw the Master Sword. (Obviously; you encounter him in the Forsaken Fortress before obtaining it.)
(3) Ganondorf escaped "seal of the gods" without "seal of the gods" being broken.

Let me contextualise this for you:

KING OF RED LIONS
Did I startle you? I suppose that is only natural. As wide as the world is, I am the only boat upon it who can speak the words of men. I am the King of the Red Lions. Do not fear... I am not your enemy. Link... I have been watching you since you went to the Forsaken Fortress to rescue your sister. I understand how your desire to protect your sister could give you the courage to fearlessly stand up to anything... But such a bold attempt was foolhardy! I suppose you saw him... The shadow that commands that monstrous bird... His name is...Ganon... He... who obtained the power of the gods, attempted to cover the land in darkness and was ultimately sealed away by the very power he hoped to command. He is the very same Ganon... The emperor of the dark realm the ancient legends speak of... I do not know why the seal of the gods has failed, but now that Ganon has returned, the world is once again being threatened by his evil magic. Tell me, Link... Do you still wish to save your sister from him? (emphasis mine)

This quote, now that you see it in full, takes place BEFORE Link draws the Master Sword. This "seal of the gods" is not ended with the Master Sword; it has already ended. There you have it, in black and white.

Edited by The Missing Link, 27 April 2007 - 03:49 PM.

[BourgeoisJerry]

But not entirely, which was my point. He may have had some power, but he himself says that there was still a seal which was limiting him. That's not debateable.

I'm not saying the seal wasn't still doing anything while he was up top, but he did "escape" the seal, as evidenced by the fact that he's not actually trapped in Hyrule. The seal is still in tact, this we all agree on. Ganondorf escaped Hyrule without breaking the seal, you're just arguing that he didn't completely escape the seal (which isn't being claimed.) By the way, Fyxe and I aren't the ones saying Ganon escaped the Ocarina of Time seal the same way he escaped the Wind Waker seal.

This quote, now that you see it in full, takes place BEFORE Link draws the Master Sword. This "seal of the gods" is not ended with the Master Sword; it has already ended. There you have it, in black and white.

Uh... "I do not know why the seal of the gods has failed, but now that Ganon has returned, the world is once again being threatened by his evil magic." The King is referring to the seal that Ganon just recently escaped, not the old one from Ocarina of Time. We know that Ganon returned without breaking that seal, but the king didn't know how he escaped until the end of the game. Look at these quotes next to each other:

I do not know why the seal of the gods has failed

I see... So this is the portal through which Ganon was able to seep into the unsuspecting world above...

The seal the king was referring to in your quote was the seal Link broke when he removed the Master Sword from the pedestal. The seal was not yet broken at the time the king said that, but had failed to contain Ganon.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 27 April 2007 - 04:03 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Yes, Ganondorf makes it quite clear the seal was intact until Link ventured down to Hyrule and claimed the Master Sword.

By the way, boy...

When you drew that sword of yours out of its pedestal... Did you by chance notice how all the monsters frozen in time down there suddenly began stirring again?

Do you understand precisely what that means?

...I highly doubt you do.

Foolish child. While that sword is indeed the blade of evil's bane, at the same time, it has long played another role... You
see, it is also a sort of key... a most wretched little key that has kept the seal on me and my magic intact!

By withdrawing the blade, you have broken that seal...

Black and white, indeed.

[LionHarted]

Well, there's at least three instances in which things pass through seals without actually breaking them in the series:

1) Ganon escaping the "seal of the gods" into the Great Sea;
2) Ganon sending his alterego Agahnim into the Light World;
3) Link using the Magic Mirror to return to the Light World.

I'd say another wouldn't hurt anything, especially since 2 and 3 are the same seal, and the same seal that I'm proposing Ganon is escaping from without breaking it.

Um, Ganondorf CLEARLY had some power before the seal was broken, a fairly considerable amount. Remember, he destroyed Greatfish Isle and cursed the entire Great Sea. He also had Phantom Ganon working for him and could survive Valoo burning his house down. And he created the gateway between Ganon's Tower and the Forsaken Fortress in the first place.

1) We don't know how he destroyed Greatfish and cursed the Great Sea. For all we know, it could have had nothing to do with actual magic.
2) You have already broken the seal by the time you face Phantom Ganon and confront Ganondorf in Forsaken Fortress.

Of course, Ganon has been known to steal other people's power/magic, so whether his own power is sealed is really of no consequence. I'm curious as to whether he's intended to possess his Triforce piece before the seal is broken.



1. There is evidence for the King being dead or not an entirely normal entity.
Circumstantial evidence, at best.

2. Give me one reason why he's not the same Ganon. You apparently have selective canon if you think he isn't.
Ganon died in both TP and TWW. There are two timelines. Do the math. ALttP, unless it happens before TP or TWW, must feature a new incarnation of Ganon.

3. No, you said we don't know what people know. We do, to an extent.
I said we know a number of things that they know, yes, but that doesn't rule out whether or not they know anything else.

4. The sages aren't the same.
So? It's a reference, not a connection.

5. I don't think that's true.
Well, that doesn't make it any less true, does it?

Edited by LionHarted, 27 April 2007 - 05:44 PM.

[The Missing Link]

Uh... "I do not know why the seal of the gods has failed, but now that Ganon has returned, the world is once again being threatened by his evil magic." The King is referring to the seal that Ganon just recently escaped, not the old one from Ocarina of Time. We know that Ganon returned without breaking that seal, but the king didn't know how he escaped until the end of the game. Look at these quotes next to each other:

Uh... I also wasn't replying to you. LionHarted claimed that this "seal of the gods" (referenced in my quote several posts prior to the post you replied to) had something to do with the Master Sword. This was my evidence against him, not you.

[LionHarted]

LionHarted claimed that this "seal of the gods" (referenced in my quote several posts prior to the post you replied to) had something to do with the Master Sword.

Doesn't it? The seal on Hyrule (that is, the one Ganondorf has somehow just recently escaped from) is broken when you draw the Master Sword from the pedestal in Hyrule Castle. With that, Ganondorf's magic is restored and the monsters in Hyrule are freed from being frozen in time.

[The Missing Link]

Doesn't it? The seal on Hyrule (that is, the one Ganondorf has somehow just recently escaped from) is broken when you draw the Master Sword from the pedestal in Hyrule Castle. With that, Ganondorf's magic is restored and the monsters in Hyrule are freed from being frozen in time.

But the King of Red Lions says that the "seal of the gods" is broken before the Master Sword is pulled, before we even know there's a Master Sword in the game, before we even see old Hyrule. If there's a connection, then how pray tell is it broken prior to the pulling of the Master Sword?

[LionHarted]

But the King of Red Lions says that the "seal of the gods" is broken before the Master Sword is pulled, before we even know there's a Master Sword in the game, before we even see old Hyrule. If there's a connection, then how pray tell is it broken prior to the pulling of the Master Sword?

The seal has simply "failed", according to his reckoning. Doesn't mean it's broken, per se, just that it failed to do what it was supposed to do; i.e. keep Ganondorf sealed in Hyrule (because of the existence of another portal). Of course, our good friend the King seems remarkably unaware of the fate of the Master Sword and its role in maintaining the seal anyway, considering that it is through his advice that Ganon regains his power, so how is it that we can rate his knowledge as fact to begin with?

Edited by LionHarted, 27 April 2007 - 10:41 PM.

[The Missing Link]

The seal has simply "failed", according to his reckoning. Doesn't mean it's broken, per se, just that it failed to do what it was supposed to do; i.e. keep Ganondorf sealed in Hyrule (because of the existence of another portal). Of course, our good friend the King seems remarkably unaware of the fate of the Master Sword and its role in maintaining the seal anyway, considering that it is through his advice that Ganon regains his power, so how is it that we can rate his knowledge as fact to begin with?

It also doesn't mean that the seal is not broken either.

I can parse sentences as well as you can.

[LionHarted]

"You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!

By withdrawing the blade, you have
broken that seal..."

Except the game tells us when the seal was broken, and it's much, much later. Just like it tells us when every seal is broken (except, strangely, the OoT seal).

Edited by LionHarted, 28 April 2007 - 07:10 AM.

[FDL]

Well, there's at least three instances in which things pass through seals without actually breaking them in the series:

1) Ganon escaping the "seal of the gods" into the Great Sea;
2) Ganon sending his alterego Agahnim into the Light World;
3) Link using the Magic Mirror to return to the Light World.

I'd say another wouldn't hurt anything, especially since 2 and 3 are the same seal, and the same seal that I'm proposing Ganon is escaping from without breaking it.

And yet Ganondorf still tried to break the seal even after Aghanim was out and about. If Aghanim were truely his alterego A.K.A. Ganondorf in costume then you'd be on to something. But it's not the case. Ganondorf still was trying to break said seal, which he *gasp* WASN'T DOING IN TWW! If you can't notice the similarities between TWW's backstory and the story of Ganon breaking the seal then I can't help you.

1. There is evidence for the King being dead or not an entirely normal entity.
Circumstantial evidence, at best.

2. Give me one reason why he's not the same Ganon. You apparently have selective canon if you think he isn't.
Ganon died in both TP and TWW. There are two timelines. Do the math. ALttP, unless it happens before TP or TWW, must feature a new incarnation of Ganon.

3. No, you said we don't know what people know. We do, to an extent.
I said we know a number of things that they know, yes, but that doesn't rule out whether or not they know anything else.

4. The sages aren't the same.
So? It's a reference, not a connection.

5. I don't think that's true.
Well, that doesn't make it any less true, does it?

1. Still, the Triforce scattered the instant he made his wish. Now why is that?
2. So you do have selective canon. If you believe OoT is the IW then Ganondorf from OoT is the same one as the one in ALttP.
3. Whatever.
4. Um, okay?
5. I notice you've not yet given any proof to this at all. Just saying it's true doesn't mean it is, idiot. I'd like to see proof before you start claiming things, thanks.

"You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!

By withdrawing the blade, you have
broken that seal..."

Except the game tells us when the seal was broken, and it's much, much later. Just like it tells us when every seal is broken (except, strangely, the OoT seal).

TWW doesn't mention OoT's seal breaking because it already has. Laruto and TWW's opening both mention Ganondorf returning and "reviving". And, again, he is never shown trying to break that seal. Don't you think he would've done that before he started trying to look for Zelda? If he did, then he'd have both seals broken. But according to you he's satisfied with still being partially sealed.

[The Missing Link]

"You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!

By withdrawing the blade, you have
broken that seal..."

Except the game tells us when the seal was broken, and it's much, much later. Just like it tells us when every seal is broken (except, strangely, the OoT seal).

Prove there's not a third seal.

[LionHarted]

Prove there's not a third seal.

There are two castings referenced. In order to avoid multiplying entities beyond necessity, we stick with there being only two.

And yet Ganondorf still tried to break the seal even after Aghanim was out and about. If Aghanim were truely his alterego A.K.A. Ganondorf in costume then you'd be on to something. But it's not the case. Ganondorf still was trying to break said seal, which he *gasp* WASN'T DOING IN TWW!

He was trying to break the seal. The seal on Hyrule. The one that trapped his monsters, the kingdom, and his magic. He seems to have already been free of the Sacred Realm seal, intact or not. Why would he concern himself with breaking a seal that poses no threat to him?

1. Still, the Triforce scattered the instant he made his wish. Now why is that?
Dunno. This is the only time we've seen a wish being made. I'd assume, based on the ALttP precedent, that it returned to the Sacred Realm.


2. So you do have selective canon. If you believe OoT is the IW then Ganondorf from OoT is the same one as the one in ALttP.
Why? All it says is that when [ALttP] Ganondorf entered it, he was unable to return to the light world. Believing that ALttP Ganon is not the IW Ganon creates no inconsistency.

5. I notice you've not yet given any proof to this at all. Just saying it's true doesn't mean it is, idiot. I'd like to see proof before you start claiming things, thanks.
Talk to Maggie's father before you rescue the girls from Forsaken Fortress (I think?).

TWW doesn't mention OoT's seal breaking because it already has. Laruto and TWW's opening both mention Ganondorf returning and "reviving". And, again, he is never shown trying to break that seal. Don't you think he would've done that before he started trying to look for Zelda? If he did, then he'd have both seals broken. But according to you he's satisfied with still being partially sealed.

1) Every other seal in the series that is broken comes with someone explicitly telling us so [in the English version of the game].
2) "Returning" and being "revived" hardly require a seal being broken. See Ganondorf's return from the depths of Hyrule via a portal, and Link exiting the Sacred Realm via the Magic Mirror.
3) Why would he break the seal on the Sacred Realm if he's trying to take over Hyrule?
4) Why would he be only partially sealed? The Sacred Realm seals were designed to do two things:
--Trap the evil power flowing from the realm
--Trap Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm

If he manages to escape, without breaking the seal, then it no longer affects him. Onward to conquer a heroless Hyrule. Which he almost accomplishes, but then he is sealed away again, this time with his magic and many of his monsters being sealed as well.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 April 2007 - 02:19 PM.

[Showsni]

Actually, my timeline also has TWW Ganon circumventing OoT's seal rather than breaking it, but for entirely different reasons... (obviously, as I place ALttP before OoT).

There being three seals is no harm, though.

Seal 1: The sage's seal, from OoT. This seal is designed to keep Ganon in the Sacred Realm. Presumably it's like the seal in ALttP, and is actually a seal on the SR iteself.

Seal 2: The goddesses seal, which came with the flood. Designed to keep Ganon from the world above, trapping him in underwater Hyrule. The king says this was broken by Ganon, and Ganon has somehow escaped it, though we never find out how.

Seal 3: The seal that the Master Sword is keeping in check. It holds Hyrule Castle in suspended animation, and somehow seperate Ganon from some of his magic powers. It's broken when Link draws the Master Sword.

So, how did Ganon break Seal 2? This is unknown. As a seal by the goddesses themselves, you'd think it would hold, though perhaps the ToP allowed him to bypass it somehow.
And how did he get past Seal 1? In ALttP, Ganon can't excape the sage's seal on the SR even with the entire triforce, until he's sacrificed the maidens. Presumably to break OoT's seal Ganon would need to sacrifice descendants of Zelda, Ruto, Saria, Darunia, Nabooru, Impa and Rauru. Certainly Fado and Laruto are killed, but it's unclear if they have a relation to the OoT sages, and from what Laruto tells us he "stole her soul" after escaping the OoT seal.

What if Ganon hasn't broken the OoT seal? (Note: some of this is pure speculation, but still a reasonable educated guess, I believe). From ALttP, we know there are several portals leading to the SR. These are all one way in the game, thanks to the sages seal in the IW. But without that seal, perhaps these would have been two way portals. In my timeline, after ALttP the portal Ganon and Agahnim created outside Hyrule castle eventually becomes the one that's contained in the Temple of Time. When the OoT Sages seal Ganon, since this occurs nearby the Temple of Time, this is probably the portal they use to send him to the Sacred Realm, and then seal up behind him. But the other portals are, though forgotten about, perhaps not sealed by the OoT sages. So maybe Ganon escapes through one of them? In TWW backstory, we see Ganon attacking Hyrule from Death Mountain. And from ALttP, it seems that the major portal to the SR is situated on Death Mountain - this is where you first enter it, and find a number of other people who have stumbled thorugh it. So perhaps Ganon escapes the SR through this portal, which would explain how he can get out of the OoT seal without killing the sages descendants, and also why he is depicted as being by death Mountain in the TWW backstory.

[LionHarted]

Actually, ALttP never says Ganon was "unable" to leave thanks to the sages' seal; just that, when he entered, he "couldn't figure out how", and can't create his own portal to escape while the seal is intact (but seems to be free to do so afterwards). OoT Ganon, in my interpretation, does figure out how to return to the light world [through the seal], which is how he manages to escape before TWW. This may or may not have something to do with the Magic Mirror.

[The Missing Link]

There are two castings referenced. In order to avoid multiplying entities beyond necessity, we stick with there being only two.

Uh huh. And the Minish only came twice. And the Song of Storms plays nicely with the split timeline. I've heard this argument before, that it's needlessly complicated and therefore cannot (ZOMG) possibly be true. It's as inane and as it has been every time before.

[LionHarted]

Never said it cannot be three; I said, to avoid unnecessary complication, "we" (that is, the hypothetical "we") only go with two.

Uh huh. And the Minish only came twice.

The Minish will come every hundred years, no matter how many times they'd come before TMC.

And the Song of Storms plays nicely with the split timeline.

Quite. Since OoT time travel seems to work phenomenally different during gameplay than at the end of the game anyway.

[The Missing Link]

Never said it cannot be three; I said, to avoid unnecessary complication, "we" (that is, the hypothetical "we") only go with two.

Therefore, the Master Sword isn't necessarily tied to the seal of the gods as there is an alternative interpretation. Therefore, it isn't necessarily factual. Therefore, stop claiming that it is; start claiming that it could be, or rather, that you believe it is under your interpretation.