158 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

Therefore, the Master Sword isn't necessarily tied to the seal of the gods as there is an alternative interpretation.

The seal of the gods is not the sages' seal, which was what I was originally arguing against.

And it is all I have sought to "prove".

[Arturo]

In OoT, Rauru asks the "Ancient Creators of Hyrule" to seal Ganondorf. So the God's Seal is the same one as the Sages' Seal.

[LionHarted]

But it's not the seal that he's escaped from when he threatens the world in TWW.

And "Ancient Creators of Hyrule" is sketchy, since that term is only used once ever. Could just as well be the sages. And since Zelda tells us that the sages are going to open the sealed door and lure Ganon into the Sacred Realm (which is what Rauru commands the "Ancient Creators of Hyrule" to do), it would be a glaring inconsistency for something else to happen.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 April 2007 - 08:55 AM.

[FDL]

[quote name='LionHarted' post='322846' date='Apr 28 2007, 03:11 PM']He was trying to break the seal. The seal on Hyrule. The one that trapped his monsters, the kingdom, and his magic. He seems to have already been free of the Sacred Realm seal, intact or not. Why would he concern himself with breaking a seal that poses no threat to him?[/quote]

Because in both games that you're referencing as proof that he could escape he still tried to break the seal afterwards. Both times he was still quite limited by it. You CAN'T use those as examples and then pretend as though in this case he'd be perfectly fine. If you want to use the fact that he was able to escape Hyrule as proof that he could escape the SR then you have to realize that something would limit him when he did so. But if we go by in-game evidence, ALttP's story, then you have to realize that we've never seen anyone capable of escaping without breaking the seal. The Magic Mirror may have been specifically designed for this purpose but it wasn't in the SR anyway.

[quote]
1. Still, the Triforce scattered the instant he made his wish. Now why is that?
Dunno. This is the only time we've seen a wish being made. I'd assume, based on the ALttP precedent, that it returned to the Sacred Realm.

2. So you do have selective canon. If you believe OoT is the IW then Ganondorf from OoT is the same one as the one in ALttP.
Why? All it says is that when [ALttP]Ganondorf entered it, he was unable to return to the light world. Believing that ALttP Ganon is not the IW Ganon creates no inconsistency.

5. I notice you've not yet given any proof to this at all. Just saying it's true doesn't mean it is, idiot. I'd like to see proof before you start claiming things, thanks.
Talk to Maggie's father before you rescue the girls from Forsaken Fortress (I think?).[/quote]

1. On ALttP precedent it would have stayed with the King. On OoT/ALttP manual precedent it would've gone to Link, Zelda, and Ganon.

[quote]1) Every other seal in the series that is broken comes with someone explicitly telling us so [in the English version of the game].
2) "Returning" and being "revived" hardly require a seal being broken. See Ganondorf's return from the depths of Hyrule via a portal, and Link exiting the Sacred Realm via the Magic Mirror.
3) Why would he break the seal on the Sacred Realm if he's trying to take over Hyrule?
4) Why would he be only partially sealed? The Sacred Realm seals were designed to do two things:
--Trap the evil power flowing from the realm
--Trap Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm[/quote]

1. That's not proof, and once again you're only using some parts of canon while ignoring others.

2. That's what they mean, though. It's just more flowery language.

3. ALttP? I don't care if you think they're not the same Ganon, if one can do it another can. You have no control over canon and you can't say one escaped while the other had to break the seal.

4. Again, don't use the physics of one seal for another only when it's convenient. If you want to use TWW as proof that Ganon can escape a seal then he must have had something limited by it.

You're using way too much fanfiction just to try to shoehorn The IW as adult OoT and it's incredibly stupid. With all the odd stuff you've made up of course it could happen. But when you actually go by facts, then your argument falls flat.

4.

If he manages to escape, without breaking the seal, then it no longer affects him. Onward to conquer a heroless Hyrule. Which he almost accomplishes, but then he is sealed away again, this time with his magic and many of his monsters being sealed as well.
[/quote]

[LionHarted]

Because in both games that you're referencing as proof that he could escape he still tried to break the seal afterwards. Both times he was still quite limited by it. You CAN'T use those as examples and then pretend as though in this case he'd be perfectly fine.

In TWW, the Master Sword put a seal on his magic. The OoT seal, to my knowledge, did no such thing. It simply trapped the magic that was seeping out of the Sacred Realm, and later Ganon himself.

But if we go by in-game evidence, ALttP's story, then you have to realize that we've never seen anyone capable of escaping without breaking the seal. The Magic Mirror may have been specifically designed for this purpose but it wasn't in the SR anyway.

It wasn't in the Sacred Realm... in ALttP.

I'm proposing that he escaped the seal long before ALttP.


1. On ALttP precedent it would have stayed with the King. On OoT/ALttP manual precedent it would've gone to Link, Zelda, and Ganon.

It wouldn't have stayed with the King; the King dies forever in the end of the game.

1. That's not proof, and once again you're only using some parts of canon while ignoring others.

Which canon am I ignoring?

2. That's what they mean, though. It's just more flowery language.

More flowery language that doesn't mention anything about a seal being broken, yes.

3. ALttP? I don't care if you think they're not the same Ganon, if one can do it another can.

You said yourself the Mirror isn't in the realm in ALttP.

4. If he manages to escape, without breaking the seal, then it no longer affects him. Onward to conquer a heroless Hyrule. Which he almost accomplishes, but then he is sealed away again, this time with his magic and many of his monsters being sealed as well.

Yes. "This time with his magic". Apparently prior mistakes are being rectified.

You're using way too much fanfiction just to try to shoehorn The IW as adult OoT and it's incredibly stupid.

Conversely, you're running with the assumption that it's not, and making all kinds of interpretations simply based on that.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 April 2007 - 11:28 AM.

[The Missing Link]

Here's an honest question:

How do you circumvent a seal without breaking it? A lot of people are saying this, and I want to know what they mean. By its very nature, a seal segregates a universe into two groups, preventing them from mingling together. Once someone "circumvents" a seal, is it not that the seal has failed to work and therefore inherently broken?

Consider it this way. Have you ever seen a sign that said a door is broken? I've used doors with this cautionary sign multiple times, and it worked for me. It still "worked," in that it did what a door should do, let me through when I wanted it to. However, the door doesn't operate as it should, meaning that some part of it is broken. But we still call the whole door broken in this case. How is it that we cannot do the same thing with a seal?

[Arturo]

What he means is that, if Ganondorf was locked in a room, the seal would be the closed door. But he could go out of the seal without breaking it. Through a window, for example. Which could mean the seal is not perfect. Something that doesn't seem to be the case, because Saria claims in OoT that the Six Sages could seal Ganondorf, but in order to create a perfect seal, they need a Seventh Sage.

[Chaltab]

Here's an honest question:

How do you circumvent a seal without breaking it? A lot of people are saying this, and I want to know what they mean. By its very nature, a seal segregates a universe into two groups, preventing them from mingling together. Once someone "circumvents" a seal, is it not that the seal has failed to work and therefore inherently broken?

Consider it this way. Have you ever seen a sign that said a door is broken? I've used doors with this cautionary sign multiple times, and it worked for me. It still "worked," in that it did what a door should do, let me through when I wanted it to. However, the door doesn't operate as it should, meaning that some part of it is broken. But we still call the whole door broken in this case. How is it that we cannot do the same thing with a seal?

Well, The Wind Waker shows us that there are more than just the seven sages of Ocarina. The Wind and Earth sages had nothing to do with the sealing, so perhaps a truly perfect seal would have required a full complement of nine sages, two of which didn't exist in the time of Ocarina. (This is purely me being hypothetical.)

Also notice that not only did Ganondorf get around the Ocarina seal, he also found away by the Flood/Master Sword seal, and in ALTTP, we have a precedent of Ganon being able to partially penetrate the sacred realm seal.

My personal fanon is that Ganondorf of TWW found a way 'around' the sages seal. To extend Arturo's metaphor, instead of walking through the door or going through a window, he took a second door into a room that was neither the Sacred Realm or Hyrule, and then took a door from this room into Hyrule. This is obviously pure fanon, but for what it's worth it avoids implying incompetence on the part of the sages.

[LionHarted]

There exists at least one way "around" the sages' seal, and that is the Magic Mirror, used by Link. ALttP also suggests that Ganon could not return to the light world because he "couldn't figure out how", not necessarily because he was trapped there by the seal (although the seal is what prevents him from creating his own portal back to the light world). So is there a way out of the Dark World, despite the seal? Maybe. Could someone else, OoT Ganondorf, for instance, used this other way out? Maybe. Is that other way out simply the Magic Mirror? Maybe.

[Showsni]

Maybe not, since possibly only the Hero can use the Magic Mirror.

...Well, remember that you
have magical powers, which only
The Hero can make the most of!
There are some other magical
warping points like the one you
saw on Death Mountain.
By using them you can go
between the two worlds and
find the evils hidden in the
Dark World.

[LionHarted]

"You have magical powers" doesn't prove anything. xD

[Arturo]

Showshni, you got the wrong quote (NOA). Here is the Japanese one, which is much more clear:

You have the Magical Mirror that only the Hero can master, don't you!

Edited by Arturo, 29 April 2007 - 04:39 PM.

[LionHarted]

Define "only the hero can master".

[Arturo]

That only the chosen hero can use. Therefore it's something Ganny and company cannot use.

[LionHarted]

That only the chosen hero can use. Therefore it's something Ganny and company cannot use.

This would be what we call "interpretation", however correct or incorrect you may be.

[Showsni]

That's the one I was looking for... I put that one up meantime.

[FDL]

In TWW, the Master Sword put a seal on his magic. The OoT seal, to my knowledge, did no such thing. It simply trapped the magic that was seeping out of the Sacred Realm, and later Ganon himself.

In ALttP, he used Aghanim to "get out" and he still needed to break the seal.

It wasn't in the Sacred Realm... in ALttP.

And it's never once mentioned that it used to be in the SR. You can't use that as an explanation when there's no evidence for it, don't you get it? I could say that the Hyrule in LoZ is Koholint because Koholint existed once. It's the same thing.

I'm proposing that he escaped the seal long before ALttP.
1. On ALttP precedent it would have stayed with the King. On OoT/ALttP manual precedent it would've gone to Link, Zelda, and Ganon.

It wouldn't have stayed with the King; the King dies forever in the end of the game.

1. That's not proof, and once again you're only using some parts of canon while ignoring others.

Which canon am I ignoring?

2. That's what they mean, though. It's just more flowery language.

More flowery language that doesn't mention anything about a seal being broken, yes.

3. ALttP? I don't care if you think they're not the same Ganon, if one can do it another can.

1. But it floats up and splits the instant the King makes his wish. According to you, he wasn't dead at that time. If we go by OoT/ALttP's manual, it went to Link, Zelda, and Ganon because they were the chosen ones. If we go by ALttP it would've stayed with the King.

You said yourself the Mirror isn't in the realm in ALttP.

It isn't in OoT, either. In ALttP's manual it is said that it didn't even become a real world until Ganondorf corrupted it. Again, it's completely baseless fanfiction which cannot be used. There's no point in theorizing if you just make up whatever shit you need for your theory.

Conversely, you're running with the assumption that it's not, and making all kinds of interpretations simply based on that.

Mine's [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] less worse. See above why.

There exists at least one way "around" the sages' seal, and that is the Magic Mirror, used by Link. ALttP also suggests that Ganon could not return to the light world because he "couldn't figure out how", not necessarily because he was trapped there by the seal (although the seal is what prevents him from creating his own portal back to the light world). So is there a way out of the Dark World, despite the seal? Maybe. Could someone else, OoT Ganondorf, for instance, used this other way out? Maybe. Is that other way out simply the Magic Mirror? Maybe.

Um, explain why Ganon tried to break the seal if it wasn't impeding him.

This would be what we call "interpretation", however correct or incorrect you may be.

And what you're doing is called "baselessly throwing out fact because it suits your theory".

[The Missing Link]

What he means is that, if Ganondorf was locked in a room, the seal would be the closed door. But he could go out of the seal without breaking it. Through a window, for example. Which could mean the seal is not perfect. Something that doesn't seem to be the case, because Saria claims in OoT that the Six Sages could seal Ganondorf, but in order to create a perfect seal, they need a Seventh Sage.

That's a reasonable explanation, but that goads another question:

If the seal that the KoRL was referring to early in the game (i.e., "seal of the gods") was one that Ganondorf had already found a workaround for (in lieu of breaking), then would not that seal be "broken" in the mind of Ganondorf? Let's use your analogy and say that Ganondorf broke the window. Wouldn't then the seal be completely pointless and thus not affect him at all? Why would the Master Sword--which broke a seal (and presumably the same one as the so-called "seal of the gods"--affect Ganondorf in any way, shape, or form? Ganondorf already figured out how to get around that door; all the Master Sword did was make it more convenient, no?

How then could they refer to the same seal? Is it not simpler then to assume they're referring to different seals?

[LionHarted]

How then could they refer to the same seal? Is it not simpler then to assume they're referring to different seals?

It is simpler to assume there is one seal on Hyrule and on Ganondorf's magic, which Ganondorf (having been in Hyrule at the time of the sealing) himself was able to escape without breaking it (therefore requiring that it be broken to release Hyrule and the magic). Breaking the seal does restore Ganondorf's magic; he tells us this himself.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 April 2007 - 09:56 PM.

[Arturo]

Lionharted, what I said wasn't an interpretation, but just what we call "understanding the English language".

[LionHarted]

Lionharted, what I said wasn't an interpretation, but just what we call "understanding the English language".

On another unrelated tangent, the Dark Mirror, which Ganon is able to use, is described in much the same way. "That mirror is only safe in your hands" or something similar.

But it floats up and splits the instant the King makes his wish. According to you, he wasn't dead at that time. If we go by OoT/ALttP's manual, it went to Link, Zelda, and Ganon because they were the chosen ones. If we go by ALttP it would've stayed with the King.

1) ALttP doesn't say anything about "chosen ones".
2) OoT says that someone with an unbalanced heart will cause the Triforce to split, and that reuniting the three parts will allow someone to make the wish without it splitting.
3) The King wished for his own death.

It isn't in OoT, either. In ALttP's manual it is said that it didn't even become a real world until Ganondorf corrupted it. Again, it's completely baseless fanfiction which cannot be used. There's no point in theorizing if you just make up whatever shit you need for your theory.

1) Oh? Then how did OoT Ganon escape? I don't remember him sending sages to the Dark World.
2) The Sacred Realm was a real world before it was transformed into the Dark World.

Um, explain why Ganon tried to break the seal if it wasn't impeding him.

It was. He was stuck in the Dark World. Only his alter-ego, Agahnim, could cross over. He wanted to conquer the world, which he can't easily do if he can't leave the Dark World with all his power.

And what you're doing is called "baselessly throwing out fact because it suits your theory".

It's a plothole. Everything we throw out is baseless.

[Arturo]

On another unrelated tangent, the Dark Mirror, which Ganon is able to use, is described in much the same way. "That mirror is only safe in your hands" or something similar.

Oh yes. Identical.

Let's see:

ALttP:

You have the Magical Mirror that only the Hero can master, don't you!

FSA:

Link! The mirror is a danger in anyone's hands but yours. No one else can be trusted.

They are absolutely identical, because, you know, they both speak in English and about mirrors. And a maiden says them. But while the first one says the mirror can only be used by Link, the second one says that the only person trustworthy enough to have an item as powerful as the Dark Mirror is Link.

Which are things completely different.

[LionHarted]

Which are things completely different.

Or, alternatively, one is a more updated version of the other.

Similar to the OoT description of the transformation of the Sacred Realm vs. ALttP's description, etc. etc.

[Arturo]

Except for that there is no indication they refer to the same. And because the description have no similarity at all.

Oh yes, I remembered that all mirrors have to be the same. No matter how different their aspects and properties are.

[LionHarted]

Except for that there is no indication they refer to the same. And because the description have no similarity at all.

There's practically no description of the Magic Mirror. All we know is that it takes you out of the Dark World and has some ties to the hero. The latter of the two is repeated in FSA, and, going off the idea that the Dark Mirror is the Twilight Mirror, due to the vast similarities between those two, FSA's mirror may also serve to send people between worlds.

So basically, in the pool of similarities, eventually all of the properties existent in any of the mirrors are present in at least two of the mirrors.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 April 2007 - 09:12 AM.

[Arturo]

The Dark Mirror has absolutely no tail to the Hero. You just seem to love making up things

Edited by Arturo, 30 April 2007 - 09:15 AM.

[LionHarted]

The Dark Mirror has absolutely no tail to the Hero. You just seem to love making up things

As I recall, you're the one who so graciously supplied the quote:

"Link! The mirror is a danger in anyone's hands but yours. No one else can be trusted."

Edited by LionHarted, 30 April 2007 - 09:17 AM.

[Arturo]

Learn English. Please.

If my mother asks me to bring some money somewhere because she thinks I can be trusted that money, does it mean that I am the only person in the world who can "master" the incredible magic of the money?

The answer is NO.

[LionHarted]

If my mother asks me to bring some money somewhere because she thinks I can be trusted that money, does it mean that I am the only person in the world who can "master" the incredible magic of the money?

"No one else can be trusted" but you, though. Anyone else would misuse the money.

In TMC, Zelda is not the only person who can use the Light Force, but only she is able to create the miracle at the end of the game. Vaati used it, and the result was catastrophe. I view the situation with the mirror as being the same. In anyone's hands but yours, the mirror causes disaster, but in your hands, it has powers that only you can master.

You're viewing the two ideas as absolutely exclusive, which is fine, but not necessarily the only plausible interpretation.

[Arturo]

Zelda doesn't misuse the mirror in FSA. And Zelda isn't Link. Therefore Link isn't the only oen who can eb trusted. It's just taht he's teh only one who has enough power to get it they can trust.