164 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

I think a gaiden timeline is much, much more likely. Or even just a very complicated single timeline with lots of events that we, the players, never actually see.

That's actually kind of what I'm suggesting.

Anyway, my point is that a lot of things that happened in OoT don't seem to have happened before TP. For instance, Ganondorf is never said to have been defeated and sealed before, and what's more, the sages didn't know him as anything more the leader of a band of evil thieves, nor did they know anything about the ToP. None of this is consistent with adult OoT, where Ganondorf was the ?Great King of Evil?. Then there is also the fact that the Hero of Time is not known by title in TP, but in TWW they worship him and have erected statues and all kinds of stuff in his and the OoT sages? honor inside Hyrule Castle. None of that in TP, which is kinda weird since TWW would take place after TP. But then Ganondorf is dead anyway...

And so on.

Ehhh, it's not that unreasonable that they didn't. They had no real need to mention that Ganon had fough the HoT. That's not to say that it is in the adult time, jus that that can't be the reasoning for it.

Of course it is. The game spills no other opportunity to speak of the ancient Hero. And you'd think his previous defeat would be something to mention to the new Hero, but no, the sages don't even appear to be aware of his near-immortality, since they believe him to be dead by the time of TP.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 09 February 2007 - 06:15 PM.

[FDL]

That's actually kind of what I'm suggesting.

Anyway, my point is that a lot of things that happened in OoT don't seem to have happened before TP. For instance, Ganondorf is never said to have been defeated and sealed before, and what's more, the sages didn't know him as anything more the leader of a band of evil thieves, nor did they know anything about the ToP. None of this is consistent with adult OoT, where Ganondorf was the “Great King of Evil”. Then there is also the fact that the Hero of Time is not known by title in TP, but in TWW they worship him and have erected statues and all kinds of stuff in his and the OoT sages? honor inside Hyrule Castle. None of that in TP, which is kinda weird since TWW would take place after TP. But then Ganondorf is dead anyway...

And so on.

Remember, though, in TWW the statue and stained glass of the Sages were there because it was a shrine specifically based around the Hero. It's not all throughout Hyrule. And it appears to me that only people that are "In the know" know of Link by his proper title. The people of Outset only refer to him as the legenday hero and the hero of legend. Still, I agree with the point you made overall. So, I'm guessing you think Ganondorf is the "king of light and shadow" because of his actions in the time of TP? I don't disagree, I'm just wondering. However, I think that if Link is not known for traveling through time in TP, as you say, he must have done something big. He's known as the Hero who saved Hyrule from danger, and not just the Hero who saved a coupe of random people. However, if we go by MM and OoT, then there's a good chance that people knew of Link's time traveling. So, I'm not sure if we can go by your evidence to be sure that people didn't know about the time traveling.

Of course it is. The game spills no other opportunity to speak of the ancient Hero. And you'd think his previous defeat would be something to mention to the new Hero, but no, the sages don't even appear to be aware of his near-immortality, since they believe him to be dead by the time of TP.

That Sage thing is actually the best proof toward the child timeline being radically different. However, I still think that your "title" idea can't be the excuse for everything against an OoT-TP connection.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 09 February 2007 - 07:15 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

So, I'm not sure if we can go by your evidence to be sure that people didn't know about the time traveling.

It isn't mentioned in the game, that's all the evidence I need. Stop making up these issues where there are none.

That Sage thing is actually the best proof toward the child timeline being radically different. However, I still think that your "title" idea can't be the excuse for everything against an OoT-TP connection.

Did you read ANYTHING of what I said? I'm not, NOT, NOT arguing against a different child timeline. And I'm not, NOT, NOT arguing against an OoT-TP connection. Stop saying I am just because I informed you it's not as canonically strong as the TWW connection.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 09 February 2007 - 07:32 PM.

[FDL]

It isn't mentioned in the game, that's all the evidence I need. Stop making up these issues where there are none

It's mentioned in OoT, and in MM Link is already called a hero despite the fact that he couldn't have existed in the child time for more than two years. That's my reasoning for being slightly doubtful.

Did you read ANYTHING of what I said? I'm not, NOT, NOT arguing against a different child timeline. And I'm not, NOT, NOT arguing against an OoT-TP connection. Stop saying I am just because I informed you it's not as canonically strong as the TWW connection

Okay, I must have misread. But don't tell me that you "informed" me of anything, because while TWW has more connections to OoT's ending, TP has a good deal of connections to nearly every other aspect of OoT's story. Still, I'd rather not get back into this, so I'm done with that specific debate unless you say anything else.

[Hero of Legend]

It's mentioned in OoT, and in MM Link is already called a hero despite the fact that he couldn't have existed in the child time for more than two years. That's my reasoning for being slightly doubtful.

Yes, he is a known as a hero in TP, and his exploits were apparently known some time after MM. So what? They know about what he did, to some extent. Just leave it at that.

But don't tell me that you "informed" me of anything, because while TWW has more connections to OoT's ending, TP has a good deal of connections to nearly every other aspect of OoT's story.

Clearly, the thought hadn't crossed your mind until then. But I'll leave it at that as well.

[FDL]

Clearly, the thought hadn't crossed your mind until then. But I'll leave it at that as well.

Excuse me? I maintained that the ENTIRE time we had our little debate and, as you seem to forget, I NEVER agreed with you. Not once. Need I remind you that it ended because you presumably got sick of it, NOT because I changed my mind, shook your hand, and said "Aw gee, mister, I'm sorry I caused y'all so much trouble".

[Hero of Legend]

Excuse me? I maintained that the ENTIRE time we had our little debate and, as you seem to forget, I NEVER agreed with you. Not once.

You really do have a problem with your reading comprehension, don't you? See, I never once said you did.

Need I remind you that it ended because you presumably got sick of it, NOT because I changed my mind, shook your hand, and said "Aw gee, mister, I'm sorry I caused y'all so much trouble".

Because I was the bigger man and didn't continue fighting. It's kinda pointless to argue with a bunch of idiots anyway.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 10 February 2007 - 06:48 AM.

[Raien]

He never states the hatred and anguish comes from anything but the Twili. At least Zant is a part of the Twili, so that makes sense. But the mirror would have to act as a middle man. It's one step removed from the Twili. Thus it's a less viable explanation. Which would be okay if something, anything in the game actually connected the two. Not even the scene attempts to connect the two. You're connecting them by a flimsy line that says nothing about the mirror, and you're trying to use some ambiguous "cursed mirror" line. Speaking of which, Auru later calls the mirror accursed, which can mean under a curse, but it can also mean ill-fated, damned, or detestable.

Zant would also be also a middle man because he is not the entire Twili tribe. And nothing in the scene where Ganondorf meets Zant connects the two.

Look, can we please stop arguing about whether the scenes themselves show or infer Ganondorf's empowerment? For every argument that no connection is made, the argument can be countered by simply replacing the words "Twilight Mirror" and "Zant". It's going nowhere.

And there's precedence for that. LTTP seems to say that there was a seal on Ganon's power. It also seems to say that Ganon had a tough time moving around within the realm, meaning that within the Dark World itself there was a check on him and his powers. Perhaps that loosened up over time. But anyway, obviously his disombodied form is more powerful than Zant. No one is disputing that. Please stop saying it.

Actually, the Essence of the Triforce said that Ganon was building up his power while sealed away in the Sacred Realm. That could not happen if the Sages sealed away his power as well.

The anger itself acted like a smelling salt. But instead of being immediate, it took a while. How does it not make sense? He actually says it was his nourishment, which conjurs up an image of feeding, which would be a slower process than one instantaneous moment. By the way, you never answered my questions. I'm not gonna stop harping on those.

Zant says that covering Hyrule in Twilight (thus making Darkness) was Ganondorf's ONLY wish. There was no second wish where Zant empowered Ganondorf in his body. There is no inference that Ganondorf put his own spirit into Zant's body; just his power, which Zant had stated earlier was Ganondorf's evil magic.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 February 2007 - 01:46 PM.

[FDL]

Because I was the bigger man and didn't continue fighting. It's kinda pointless to argue with a bunch of idiots anyway.

My opinion differing with you doesn't make me an idiot, actually. I had perfectly valid points with which I was arguing with you. However, the debate itself was foolish, I'll agree. But don't give me that "bigger man" bullshit, when you take something as trivial as this seriously enough that you think that the situation requires you to be the "bigger man" it sort of cancels out any wisdom you demonstrated.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 10 February 2007 - 01:12 PM.

[Showsni]

Hey now, less of the arguing, please. HoL and FDL, just drop it.

[FDL]

Fair enough.

[MK.]

To this whole "divine prank discussion"

I think the point is this.

In OOT, Ganondorf snuck in as Link (in the name of good and justice) was trying to take the Triforce and Ganondorf took it. This would be a "divine prank."

I'm not saying the divine prank the sages in Twilight Princess speak of is this SAME divine prank, but same idea. Ganondorf did an underhanded action to get the Triforce, which SHOULD have been meant for somebody else.

[FDL]

Yeah, that's true. As I've pretty much made clear, I think Ganondorf got into the SR in the CT, and something else is what prevented Ganondorf from actually taking over Hyrule(although he still culd have, MM makes me think he didn't, though)

[MK.]

Yeah, that's true. As I've pretty much made clear, I think Ganondorf got into the SR in the CT, and something else is what prevented Ganondorf from actually taking over Hyrule(although he still culd have, MM makes me think he didn't, though)

Kid Link at end of OOT tells Zelda, "Hey, that man in there bowing to your father, he's evil."
Zelda: Daddy, please execute that bad man.
Ganondorf is sent to the Gerudo Desert to be executed, but lives, and is banished to Twilight Realm.
Link leaves to find Navi and falls into Termina a few months later.

A possible explaination...

[FDL]

So, despite the fact that he didn't believe Zelda before, which is why she tried to get into the Sacred Realm in the first place, he'd have Ganon executed? Plus, in TP we're told this:

He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of
establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.He was known as a demon thief, an evil-magic wielder renowned for his ruthlessness...But he was blind...In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.

This doesn't sound like a meddling kids moment where his plot was foiled, it sounds like he was wreaking havoc around Hyrule. While he may not have actually taken over Hyrule, it certainly reminds me of this quote in OoT, which is said after Ganondorf has gone into the Sacred Realm:

Though we're both thieves, I'm completely different from Ganondorf. With hisfollowers, he stole from women and children, and even killed people!

I dunno, but the only thing that really supports the theory that Zelda sent Link back to before they first met is that she's at the Castle in the end. But the fact that MM and TP both reference Link still being known as a hero, as well as TP and OoT showing us that Link still had the ToC as a child, aaannnddd Zelda telling Link to put the MS back into the pedestal, which has never resulted in him going back to a time that he had already seen, makes me think there is little chance.