164 replies to this topic

[Raien]

When we first see Ganondorf, he tells us that malice empowered him. We know that Ganondorf met Zant in a fit of malice, so we immediately think Zant empowered Ganondorf. This is a red herring; Ganondorf tells us that the malice came from the Twili's ancestors who "defied the gods with petty magic". Zant is not one of the Twili's ancestors so his malice alone could not be what Ganondorf was referring to. Likewise, Midna tells us that the other Twili were living in harmony under her family's reign, so we can't associate the Twili tribe with malice either. Thirdly, the malice could not have "bled through the void" if Ganondorf and the malice were in the same realm.

There is one other explanation that works with the text and visuals. Auru tells us that the Gerudo desert "holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates", which he later says he found out from the Sages. Not only does this explain the "evil power" that the Twilight Mirror possesses, but we also know that Ganondorf was in the presence of the Twilight Mirror when he became empowered and the Triforce of Power resonated.

Before you begin shouting that the Triforce of Power came to Ganondorf in that scene to empower him, which is why the Sages were surprised, this isn't necessarily the case. Three reasons for this:

1) "Divine prank" means "prank in relation to the divine", not necessarily "prank caused by the divine". The Triforce is a "divine relic" so the term could be referring to that he possesses the Triforce; nothing to with the gods.

2) The gods have opposed darkness throughout the game series; they ordered the Sages to protect the Mirror, they commanded the Sages to forge the Master Sword, their power infused the Master Sword with it's ability to repel evil, etc. To grant evil a piece of the Triforce therefore goes against everything that they have fought for in the game series, and makes no sense.

Furthermore, when Link and Midna are about to enter the Twilight Realm, the Sages appear and apologise to Link for their own carelessness. If the gods were responsible for Ganondorf's empowerment, then the Sages would attribute the blame to the gods, not to themselves.

3) The Sages look shocked when Ganondorf shows the resonating ToP, but were they surprised in discovering that Ganondorf possessed the ToP, or that he was empowered by it? If you read the text carefully, nothing suggests that they had no knowledge of Ganondorf possessing the ToP, but if he could be subdued while possessing it, then there would be no potential threat. The surprise would have come from finding that Ganondorf remained a potential threat. Let me explain this further:

Ganondorf possessed evil magic before and after he took the ToP, which suggests that the ToP is empowering his evil magic; not simply Ganondorf. So what if Ganondorf was separated from the evil magic that he possessed (obviously not all of it, because that would kill him)? Would the ToP be able to empower anything if Ganondorf had no evil magic to empower? Without magic, the ToP can do nothing so the Sages don't consider Ganondorf a threat.

However, if the malice in the Twilight Mirror is able to restore Ganondorf's evil magic to him, then the ToP can empower that magic, causing it to resonate with power. This is when Ganondorf is sent to the Twilight Realm, where he establishes Zant as his pawn and uses him to merge the Light World and Twilight Realm together.

I won't deny there's speculation in this theory, but when you remember that TWW also showed Ganondorf separated from his evil magic in Old Hyrule and forced to regain his strength on the surface, it is not such a ridiculous concept.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 January 2007 - 03:23 PM.

[Mgoblue201]

There's one problem with your argument in that the line isn't very clear.

Your people have long amused me, Midna. To defy the gods with such petty magic,
only to be cast aside... How very pathetic.
Pathetic as they were, though, they served me well. Their anguish was my
nourishment.
Their hatred bled across the void and awakened me. I drew deep in it and grew
strong again.
Your people had some skill, to be sure...but they lacked true power.
The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield.
He who wields such power would make a suitable king for this world, don't you
think?

You can still easily take this to mean Zant. Firstly, he never makes mention of Midna's ancestors specifically. Now what he does do is take Midna's people in their totality. When he says they defied the gods, he doesn't say your ancestors. He means your people defied the gods. He's not making a distinction between past and present. Therefore he's not setting a timetable for anything.

However, you could also make the argument that most of what he's talking about is in the past, so him awakening was also around that time.

There are other problems with your theory though. First off void means nothingness. This fits much better if both are in the Twilight Realm since it appears that there was a lot of empty space. He also says awakened. This could simply mean awakening his power. However, it seems to be saying that his being was awakened, again fitting much better if he's floating out in the nothingness of the Twilight Realm almost caged like an animal. Also, what was he doing in the Twilight Realm for all of those years? Did he really wait until Zant came around before doing anything? It might work better if the Twili lived in peace for so many years, Zant upset the balance, this unshifted balance awoke Ganon, and he immediately used Zant.

And talking specifically about the gods, if they really opposed darkness, why allow the Triforce to be created? Why not destroy evil instead of simply assisting in its banishment? You could argue that there then would not be any games, but it's a valid point. Sure they fight against evil, but you're saying they'd flood Hyrule instead of christening a hero or attempting to destroy the darkness? It's not that they simply lend their power so the Hylians can fight evil. Flooding the world is getting pretty involved in Hylian affairs. So what is the exact nature of the gods anyway? That's something I cannot answer.

[Tekky]

And talking specifically about the gods, if they really opposed darkness, why allow the Triforce to be created? Why not destroy evil instead of simply assisting in its banishment? You could argue that there then would not be any games, but it's a valid point. Sure they fight against evil, but you're saying they'd flood Hyrule instead of christening a hero or attempting to destroy the darkness? It's not that they simply lend their power so the Hylians can fight evil. Flooding the world is getting pretty involved in Hylian affairs. So what is the exact nature of the gods anyway? That's something I cannot answer.

Well, as Zelda says, the world is one of balance. Just as there is evil, there is also good. You can't have one without the other...

[spunky-monkey]

There are some problems I've noticed below:

Zant is not one of the Twili's ancestors so his malice alone could not be what Ganondorf was referring to.

So going by that reasoning Zant is not one of the Twili, even though he actually is?

1) "Divine prank" means "prank in relation to the divine", not necessarily "prank caused by the divine". The Triforce is a "divine relic" so the term could be referring to that he possesses the Triforce; nothing to with the gods.

The Sages aren't stupid. They called it a divine prank because Ganondorf was chosen by the gods (suggesting that they're either corrupt, or at least unable to tell good & evil apart anymore). Sage's shock and grief is justified because they have been betrayed by their own creators.

2) The gods have opposed darkness throughout the game series;

Then why create the Triforce, the relic of absolute power, that turned yearning into lust and fueled the very first conflict? It's presence is the ultimate temptation.

Ganondorf possessed evil magic before and after he took the ToP, which suggests that the ToP is empowering his evil magic; not simply Ganondorf. So what if Ganondorf was separated from the evil magic that he possessed (obviously not all of it, because that would kill him)? Would the ToP be able to empower anything if Ganondorf had no evil magic to empower? Without magic, the ToP can do nothing so the Sages don't consider Ganondorf a threat.

Triforce of Power is not mere magic nor requires any to work; we all saw what happened when Midna tried to use her ancient Fused Shadows against it - she lost.

Edited by Ricky, 19 January 2007 - 01:27 PM.

[FDL]

The "divine prank" line I don't think neccessarily means that the goddesses are corrupt. I mean, we're told constantly they chose both the legendary hero of the past(the HoT) and the new hero(TP Link) to save the land.

[Raien]

First off void means nothingness.

OoT refers to the "void of the Evil Realm", so obviously the term is being used outside it's literal definition.

So going by that reasoning Zant is not one of the Twili, even though he actually is?

Midna tells us that the tribe that "defied the gods with petty magic" only became the Twili when they were banished to the Twilight Realm. This means that the Twili are only descendants of the dark tribe, not the tribe itself.

The Sages aren't stupid. They called it a divine prank because Ganondorf was chosen by the gods (suggesting that they're either corrupt, or at least unable to tell good & evil apart anymore). Sage's shock and grief is justified because they have been betrayed by their own creators.

By their own words, the Sages were "careless". If the situation was out of their control, they had no reason to consider themselves careless. They specifically blame themselves and apologise to Link for their own failings. They do not blame the gods at all. Why? Because the gods are not to blame.

Ganondorf was not chosen by the gods because the gods and Ganon are arch-enemies; their concepts are binary opposites to each other. The gods represent Order, Light, Good and Ganon represents Chaos, Darkness and Evil. Think back to how the goddesses sealed away the Fused Shadows and the Dark Tribe and don't tell me that they somehow went corrupt. The entire franchise has been completely open about the gods' intentions and actions and it all goes against Ganon.

Then why create the Triforce, the relic of absolute power, that turned yearning into lust and fueled the very first conflict? It's presence is the ultimate temptation.

The Triforce was left behind to "govern Hyrule" according to ALTTP's Manual. I infer from this that it keeps order in Hyrule, which is why Hyrule falls to chaos and Ganon is revived before LoZ (and possibly TWW).

Triforce of Power is not mere magic nor requires any to work; we all saw what happened when Midna tried to use her ancient Fused Shadows against it - she lost.

The fight has always been against Ganondorf's magic, not the Triforce of Power. The TP Sages stabbed Ganondorf to "destroy his evil magic". The power that Ganondorf gave to Zant was "evil magic" or "evil power". The evil magic is integral to the plotline and it is through the destruction of the evil magic that Ganondorf dies, since the Master Sword stabbing represents the failure of the Sages' own attempt to kill him with a Light blade.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 January 2007 - 03:18 PM.

[SOAP]

I hope he doesn't mind me answering for him:

So going by that reasoning Zant is not one of the Twili, even though he actually is?

He didn't say Zant wasn't a Twili. Only that he wasn't part of their ancestors. He's a decendant like Midna.

The Sages aren't stupid. They called it a divine prank because Ganondorf was chosen by the gods (suggesting that they're either corrupt, or at least unable to tell good & evil apart anymore). Sage's shock and grief is justified because they have been betrayed by their own creators.

Yes, Ganondorf was chosen by the Gods to weild the ToP and take over Hyrule. And Link was chosen by those same Gods to defeat Ganondorf and save Hyrule. Problem is, Ganondorf only knows or just cares about the first prophecy because, as the Sages said, his arrogance blinded him. I don't see any divine betrayal here, other than on Ganondorf, since it's the same set up that in nearly every Zelda game he's been involved in. If the Sages really did think that the Gods had betrayed them then they're just as short-sighted as Ganondorf.

In fact, the only time the Gods actually betrayal the Hylians is in TWW's backstory, where instead of chosing a new Hero, they decide to flood Hyrule so no one could have it.

[Raien]

Yes, Ganondorf was chosen by the Gods to weild the ToP and take over Hyrule. And Link was chosen by those same Gods to defeat Ganondorf and save Hyrule. Problem is, Ganondorf only knows or just cares about the first prophecy because, as the Sages said, his arrogance blinded him. I don't see any divine betrayal here, other than on Ganondorf, since it's the same set up that in nearly every Zelda game he's been involved in. If the Sages really did think that the Gods had betrayed them then they're just as short-sighted as Ganondorf.

Read what I wrote. The Sages attribute no blame to the gods for Ganondorf's escape.

In fact, the only time the Gods actually betrayal the Hylians is in TWW's backstory, where instead of chosing a new Hero, they decide to flood Hyrule so no one could have it.

That wasn't a betrayal. It was a last resort to seal Ganondorf away. They left people above the water to awaken Hyrule again, according to what the KoRL told Ganondorf.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 January 2007 - 03:21 PM.

[SOAP]

Read what I wrote. The Sages attribute no blame to the gods for Ganondorf's escape.
That wasn't a betrayal. It was a last resort to seal Ganondorf away. They left people above the water to awaken Hyrule again, according to what the KoRL told Ganondorf.

Read what I wrote. I'm not saying that either. I'm saying that even if they did believe that, it wouldn't have been very wise of them to think so because the Gods aren't betraying them. The only one who's being betrayed is Ganomndorf by his own arrogance. I'm trying to help you here.

[Raien]

Read what I wrote. I'm not saying that either. I'm saying that even if they did believe that, it wouldn't have been very wise of them to think so because the Gods aren't betraying them. The only one who's being betrayed is Ganomndorf by his own arrogance. I'm trying to help you here.

Sorry, it sounded like it was against what I was saying.

[SOAP]

Well usually I am arguing against someone in debate so it's kinda hard to switch off that mode when you're trying to support someone else. Totally understandable.

[coinilius]

Wait, I thought by this -

In fact, the only time the Gods actually betrayal the Hylians is in TWW's backstory, where instead of chosing a new Hero, they decide to flood Hyrule so no one could have it.

- you were saying that the Gods betrayed the Hylians? Or were you only replying to the bit about the Sages/Ganondorf thing and not to jhurvid's bit about how the flood wasn't a betrayel either? *scratches head*

Edited by coinilius, 19 January 2007 - 08:13 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

By their own words, the Sages were "careless". If the situation was out of their control, they had no reason to consider themselves careless. They specifically blame themselves and apologise to Link for their own failings. They do not blame the gods at all. Why? Because the gods are not to blame.

They apologised to Midna for banishing Ganondorf to the Twilight Realm, but she shows no bitterness because they know it couldn't be helped. Towards the end Midna also rejected Ganondorf as a 'chosen one' to weld the absolute power that the Gods possess, she actually denies their decision.

Ganondorf was not chosen by the gods because the gods and Ganon are arch-enemies;

The Gods are never once mentioned to be enemies of evil. Twilight Realm's existence and all the monsters in Zelda show they practically encourage it so that they can justify chosing a hero. Ironically, it's all a game to them *hey look I made a funny*.

The Triforce was left behind to "govern Hyrule" according to ALTTP's Manual.

I know it says that, but how can it accomplish this when it only serves as a weapon to be used against others instead? Even the people in ALttP are perplexed as to why the Gods would leave such a troublesome thing lying around.

The fight has always been against Ganondorf's magic, not the Triforce of Power.

No. It's stated in OoT that the Triforce of Power enabled Ganondorf to conquer Hyrule and become the Evil King. It also transforms him into Ganon. Ganondorf's black magic isn't an issue anymore, and if he was already so powerful why couldn't he use said sorcery against the Hero of Winds in tWW?

[Mgoblue201]

OoT refers to the "void of the Evil Realm", so obviously the term is being used outside it's literal definition.

It doesn't exactly mean what you're trying to make it out to be either. It could be that void means different things in either circumstances. I also seem to remember the Sacred Realm as being like a "void", but I can't remember where I heard it. It certainly looks a helluva lot like the Twilight Realm in the picture of it in the LTTP booklet. Of course that's the Sacred Realm, not the Dark World, which Ganon transformed it to, but who's to say he was not literally trapped in a void? LTTP says Ganon was bound within the Dark World itself, although I'd have to imagine that those shackles were slightly loosened by the time of LTTP. I'm trying to draw parallels between the Dark World and Twilight Realm here. You could translate Ganon's line in TP to literally mean that he was trapped, floating out there in the Twilight Realm before he was awakened. I think that very well could have been true in OOT, after all we do not know the exact state of the Dark World or Ganon's sealing at that point.

Anyway, the Sage's words were said out of shock and surprise. You could literally take "divine prank" to mean...this is going to require some explanation. You know when something bad happens to a person and they say "how could God allow this to happen to me?" It's probably very similar. The Sages are literally wondering why the gods would allow that to happen. After all such powerful beings with dominion over the world should be able to stop it. And they theoratically should be able to stop it. Without the full Triforce, Ganon couldn't even begin to challenge the gods, despite what he might represent in the series. And he says the Twili were cast aside by the gods, which we could assume is some sort of divine favoring.

Anyway, Link has the Triforce mark on his hand the entire game. Clearly that power was not "awakened" in a sense. Ganon did not receive his mark until he was already executed. Just making an inference based on that one event, I'd be more inclined to say that Ganon was either blessed with the Triforce in that instance or it was predestined and that it did not reach its fulfillment until then. If he had the power that power hidden the entire time, I don't think it would've waited to show up. I realize that the Triforce mark is a little different in every game, but we have to take TP as one entity in this case and judge it against itself.

Edited by Mgoblue201, 20 January 2007 - 12:18 PM.

[Raien]

Anyway, Link has the Triforce mark on his hand the entire game. Clearly that power was not "awakened" in a sense. Ganon did not receive his mark until he was already executed. Just making an inference based on that one event, I'd be more inclined to say that Ganon was either blessed with the Triforce in that instance or it was predestined and that it did not reach its fulfillment until then. If he had the power that power hidden the entire time, I don't think it would've waited to show up. I realize that the Triforce mark is a little different in every game, but we have to take TP as one entity in this case and judge it against itself.

The Triforce of Power resonated after Ganondorf was executed. There is no visual evidence that he actually received it at that time.

And the reason why the Triforce of Power resonated was because he was empowered in the presence of the malice of the Twili's ancestors. This malice cannot be found anywhere else other than the Twilight Mirror. Blag it all you want; the current Twili are not their own ancestors.

Edited by jhurvid, 20 January 2007 - 01:41 PM.

[Mad Scrub]

When Ganondorf has the ToP he cannot be defeated without the MS or the Silver Arrows. The ToP probably began to resonate because it realized its host had been injured and used it's power to keep him alive. That's the way I see it anyway.

[Raien]

When Ganondorf has the ToP he cannot be defeated without the MS or the Silver Arrows. The ToP probably began to resonate because it realized its host had been injured and used it's power to keep him alive. That's the way I see it anyway.

Ganondorf was in a position where he could not use the ToP until his empowerment by the Twilight Mirror. It was in this weakened state that the Sages' blade could kill him. Since it is evil magic that repels the power of Light, I think it is this substance that he lacks. It it this magic that he gains from empowerment and it is this magic that the ToP then empowers itself. It all leads back to the evil magic.

[SOAP]

Wait, I thought by this -
- you were saying that the Gods betrayed the Hylians? Or were you only replying to the bit about the Sages/Ganondorf thing and not to jhurvid's bit about how the flood wasn't a betrayel either? *scratches head*

I was saying that was the only time one could say the Gods betrayed the Hylians. Not in TP were Ganondorf was chosen to weild the ToP.

[coinilius]

I was saying that was the only time one could say the Gods betrayed the Hylians. Not in TP were Ganondorf was chosen to weild the ToP.

Yeah, I figured that was it - it was just that in your earlier reply, you quoted jhurvid's comments on the flood not being a betrayal as well, so it looked like you were saying you didn't mean to make that event sound like a betrayal either

Edited by coinilius, 21 January 2007 - 06:59 PM.

[Mgoblue201]

Resonating has nothing to do with my point. Link's piece resonated when he turned into a wolf. However, he still had the mark before that. If Ganon simply had the Triforce piece, but it wasn't awakened, then he should've had the mark on his hand prior. Nintendo could have just been doing it for dramatic effect. However, I think they truly wished for it to actually appear at that moment. That's the visual evidence. The fact that the mark actually appeared. It's consistant with what we know about the rest of the game.

I already answered the point about the Twili. He never uses the word ancestor in there, so he could very well be taking the Twili in their entirety regardless of past or present. I'll give an example. Suppose I say those Irish Americans were a strong people, risking their lives to sail to this country. They built a youth center in this community. In both bases I'm talking about the past. One happened hundreds of years ago, one happened just a year ago. You're taking the Irish Americans in their totality. It doesn't matter if you jump between centuries because the point isn't to establish a timeframe. It's to inform you about the good deeds of that people using specific instances as examples.

Edited by Mgoblue201, 22 January 2007 - 12:08 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

Resonating has nothing to do with my point. Link's piece resonated when he turned into a wolf. However, he still had the mark before that. If Ganon simply had the Triforce piece, but it wasn't awakened, then he should've had the mark on his hand prior. Nintendo could have just been doing it for dramatic effect. However, I think they truly wished for it to actually appear at that moment. That's the visual evidence. The fact that the mark actually appeared. It's consistant with what we know about the rest of the game.

I'm not sure how or at what point TP Link acquired the Triforce of Courage; even more confusing is the true nature of this Triforce part as it's not explained in any of the games and Ganon from adult OoT also admitted he underestimated it.

The Triforce of Power works differently from the other two parts and doesn't seem to stay dormant in the user's body because power itself is expressed through actions, not inactions. I guess Courage seems to act all on its own, whereas Power is permanently active and without Wisdom is almost uncontrollable - this obviously means Ganondorf didn't have the ToP prior to the Mirror Chamber execution.

[Firelord-Link]

Quote didn't work, so...

Mgoblue201 said that Ganon said: The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield.
He who wields such power would make a suitable king for this world, don't you
think?


And then he says you could take that king for Zant.

1: Ganondorf is obviously talking about the Triforce, which means he wants to rule the world himself, because Zant doesn't have a piece of the Triforce.

2: Didn't he say that after Zant died???

[Tri-Enforcer]

You all may shout at me for this one: Maybe Ganon is also 'chosen'. However, unlike Link he uses this priviledge for evil means. Remember the Triforce can't distinguish between good and evil...but it can distinguish whoever is able to champion it (IW anyone?). If Ganon wanted to or had the right heart--he could also be a hero.

[MikePetersSucks]

You all may shout at me for this one: Maybe Ganon is also 'chosen'. However, unlike Link he uses this priviledge for evil means. Remember the Triforce can't distinguish between good and evil...but it can distinguish whoever is able to champion it (IW anyone?). If Ganon wanted to or had the right heart--he could also be a hero.

QFT.

[Duke Serkol]

I like that line of thinking too

Oh and isn't it conceivable that many present day twili like Zant still resent the people of Hyrule for living in the world they were kicked out of? (For the whole thing about empowering malice)

Edited by Duke Serkol, 22 January 2007 - 08:15 PM.

[Raien]

You all may shout at me for this one: Maybe Ganon is also 'chosen'. However, unlike Link he uses this priviledge for evil means. Remember the Triforce can't distinguish between good and evil...but it can distinguish whoever is able to champion it (IW anyone?). If Ganon wanted to or had the right heart--he could also be a hero.

Ganondorf said he was chosen by the gods, not the Triforce. Unlike the Triforce, the gods can distinguish between good and evil, which is why they infused the power of Light into the Master Sword and ordered the Sages to guard the Mirror of Twilight. The gods did not choose Ganondorf; everything that they have done is to prevent him from getting the Triforce. Ganondorf may think that he is chosen (in a similar respect that Hitler thought he was ordained to rule the world), but the gods oppose him and he defies the gods. In TWW, Ganondorf refers to them as "Your gods..."

Resonating has nothing to do with my point. Link's piece resonated when he turned into a wolf. However, he still had the mark before that. If Ganon simply had the Triforce piece, but it wasn't awakened, then he should've had the mark on his hand prior. Nintendo could have just been doing it for dramatic effect. However, I think they truly wished for it to actually appear at that moment. That's the visual evidence. The fact that the mark actually appeared. It's consistant with what we know about the rest of the game.

We do not see the Triforce appear, we see it resonate. Until you have evidence that it "appeared", you cannot argue that you have visual evidence. Likewise, it is not consistent with what we know from the games, because there is no way that the gods would create an elaborate set of traps to keep him away from the Triforce in OoT, only to then grant him the Triforce of Power in TP. It's like saying Jesus Christ will fight Satan to save the world from evil, and then Jesus gives Satan his power to destroy the world again. It's a hypocritical concept.

I already answered the point about the Twili. He never uses the word ancestor in there, so he could very well be taking the Twili in their entirety regardless of past or present. I'll give an example. Suppose I say those Irish Americans were a strong people, risking their lives to sail to this country. They built a youth center in this community. In both bases I'm talking about the past. One happened hundreds of years ago, one happened just a year ago. You're taking the Irish Americans in their totality. It doesn't matter if you jump between centuries because the point isn't to establish a timeframe. It's to inform you about the good deeds of that people using specific instances as examples.

Only one tribe "defied the gods with petty magic" and that was the Twili's ancestors. As Midna states, the Twili themselves learned to live in harmony within the Twilight Realm. Only Zant has been singled out among the Twili for possessing malice and greed for power. Zant is an individual, so he cannot be defined as "their malice".

Likewise, don't you think it is more than coincidence that the Ganondorf was empowered at the exact same place where the malice of the Twili's ancestors was contained? Why do we have to make up reasons why the text is not referring to exactly what it says when there is a perfectly consistent answer available?

Edited by jhurvid, 22 January 2007 - 08:37 PM.

[SOAP]

You all may shout at me for this one: Maybe Ganon is also 'chosen'. However, unlike Link he uses this priviledge for evil means. Remember the Triforce can't distinguish between good and evil...but it can distinguish whoever is able to champion it (IW anyone?). If Ganon wanted to or had the right heart--he could also be a hero.

I said that already.

Yes, Ganondorf was chosen by the Gods to weild the ToP and take over Hyrule. And Link was chosen by those same Gods to defeat Ganondorf and save Hyrule. Problem is, Ganondorf only knows or just cares about the first prophecy because, as the Sages said, his arrogance blinded him. I don't see any divine betrayal here, other than on Ganondorf, since it's the same set up that in nearly every Zelda game he's been involved in.

It's not like it's anything new. I was under the impression that Ganon was just as chosen to be the villain just as much as Link was chosen to be the hero that slays him. Link is destined to rise up everytime Hyrule is in trouble but someone has to cause that trouble. Usually it's Ganon or someone working for him.

[spunky-monkey]

Ganondorf said he was chosen by the gods, not the Triforce. Unlike the Triforce, the gods can distinguish between good and evil, which is why they infused the power of Light into the Master Sword and ordered the Sages to guard the Mirror of Twilight. The gods did not choose Ganondorf; everything that they have done is to prevent him from getting the Triforce. Ganondorf may think that he is chosen (in a similar respect that Hitler thought he was ordained to rule the world), but the gods oppose him and he defies the gods. In TWW, Ganondorf refers to them as "Your gods..."

The gods from Zelda are like those that exist in Greek Mythology - they are the creators of both good and evil. Therefore, they are neither for Ganon nor against him. The only thing they care about is balance.

[Raien]

The gods from Zelda are like those that exist in Greek Mythology - they are the creators of both good and evil. Therefore, they are neither for Ganon nor against him. The only thing they care about is balance.

There is a balance between Light and Darkness, but only because the gods have provided Light to banish Darkness. As Zelda says "Just as there is light to banish darkness, there is benevolence to banish evil." Without the balance of Light, Darkness would destroy the world.

Can you provide one example, other than the scene in TP where you think Ganondorf received the ToP, where the gods have provided evil with the potential for destroying the world? There are many examples of the gods protecting Hyrule from evil, which heavily implies that the gods favour Order and Light against Darkness.

In TP's backstory, they made the world of Hyrule, where everyone had equal power and lived in harmony (Order).
In TP's backstory, they sealed away the Twili's ancestors and the Fused Shadows, which was a corruptive dark power used for disharmony.
In TP, we are told that the Sages were ordered to guard the Mirror of Twilight, which we can infer was because it became an evil power after the malice of the Twili's ancestors was contained inside. The Sages had sealed away other forms of evil in the Arbiter's Grounds after all (the sword of darkness).
In TWW's backstory, they sealed Hyrule away but left people behind "who would one day reawaken Hyrule".
In TWW, they kept the King of Hyrule alive and gave him the duty of finding the Hero who would defeat Ganondorf.
In TWW, we are told that the Master Sword's power to repel evil was that of Light; also stated to be "the gods' power". The Sages prayed to the gods to give Light to the Master Sword.
In ALTTP's backstory, we are told that forging of the Master Sword was ordered by the gods to protect Hyrule from evil.

Edited by jhurvid, 23 January 2007 - 09:28 AM.

[Mgoblue201]

The Triforce mark was not on his hand when he was killed. Then it not only appeared, but it began to resonate. I'd say that's proof. I could take a picture, but I know it happened. I checked before my last post.

Your Jesus analogy presupposes that the gods can do no wrong. We do not know the nature of the gods. However, if they interfered enough to flood the world, then why couldn't they do something stop Ganon from ever entering the Sacred Realm to begin with? These gods aren't holy. Not even close. But there are many explanations which don't involve the gods just handing him the Triforce like you suppose. Besides, I'm not even certain that Ganon has the actual Triforce of Power, although that's another debate. But let's examine the quote for a minute.

He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of
establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.
He was known as a demon thief, an evil-magic wielder renowned for his
ruthlessness...
But he was blind...
In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was exposed,
subdued, and brought to justice.
Yet...
By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the
gods.

For one thing there is nothing in here to even suggest he got his hands on the Triforce. So carefully detailing a scene and leaving out an important part does not help your case. No, Ganon did not get his hands on the Triforce to begin with. That's the spirit of this text. In fact they did not even bring up the Triforce until the end as if it wasn't until that part where they realized that he had it. This is going in sequential order too, so the order is important in this case. And notice how they never say blessed by the gods. The entire game makes allusions that they're chosen by the gods. However, it never entails that the gods simply handed him the Triforce. It seems to say that he was chosen to wield that power, that the power itself was chosen to go to each individual. Again, there are many theories as to why this is the case. Some have even claimed that once Ganon touched the Triforce in the adult timeline, it was meant to go to him in the child timeline. This is interesting because I remember people debating about how in OOT it talked about fate and how Link stopping Ganon in the child timeline stopped what was fated. However, this could simply be fate. There are many theories about it. I'm not really certain that it was the actual Triforce of Power that he received. It would remove all the messiness of him getting the Triforce without touching it, but it would still give him plenty of power.

Zant might be an individual, but there seems to be inconsistancies in the game anyway. Zant claims that they knew not anger or hatred or the faintest bloom of desire. However, what is Midna? She is bitter. She is crazy. Zelda claims that there are some horrible pain harbored in her heart. There are two possibilities. Either she had known it her entire life or Zant disrupted the balance of the Twilight Realm and caused much suffering. The latter is what I want to focus on. Suppose Zant was being a bitch. He stirred up many ill feelings amongst the Twili. This eventually awakened Ganon, and it fits with the text.

Besides, if they really did regress and know nothing inside of the Twilight Realm, it wouldn't have been able to help Ganon by the time he was executed. You're supposing that the Twili's banishment was a very recent event by that time, which it could have been, but there's a very big chance that it would've been a memory by Ganon's time.

Also of note is that when Zant talks about his ancestors, he says "we". Ths even further blurs the distinction between the ancestors and the present Twili.

It's a coincidence because there was no other way for it to happen. That was the place they executed and banished criminals. The two just happened to coincide. Your theory is nice and all, but I really don't think it's how the text should read. The Triforce mark just happened to appear after Ganon was dead. Not just resonating. The mark appeared. They then talk about being a chosen wielder. And I think there's a key line here. Ganon just happened to come back the moment Zant was in his hatred and despair, while Ganon uses the words hatred and anguish to describe this event, marking a parallel. This makes sense if he was caged in the Twilight Realm like the Twili were and then awakened. Now those are things that I think we should be reading into. You can't just come up with a theory because you don't like the chosen power going to this person and that. If we just take it as it is without any dialogue, it appears that Ganon receives the power of the gods at that moment and that he awakens upon Zant's despair. That I believe is the default position. The ambiguous lines of dialogue don't do too much to clear it up, or at least go heavily one way or the other. Look, I'll change my stance based on two things. If my current theory is irreperably broken and if there's a better theory. I just don't see anything wrong with the current stance, and the other one doesn't exactly shed light on the subject. That's what I see anyway.

Quote didn't work, so...

Mgoblue201 said that Ganon said: The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield.
He who wields such power would make a suitable king for this world, don't you
think?
And then he says you could take that king for Zant.

1: Ganondorf is obviously talking about the Triforce, which means he wants to rule the world himself, because Zant doesn't have a piece of the Triforce.

2: Didn't he say that after Zant died???

I didn't say the king was Zant. I said that the hatred and anguish was Zant's hatred and anguish that awoke Ganon.

Edited by Mgoblue201, 23 January 2007 - 10:59 AM.