164 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Except 'darkness' is only becoming the most overused word in Zelda, the Japanese creators have their own beliefs and are probably applying different meanings to describe conflict between good & evil as a whole. Ganondorf is just a man who seeks power; Vaati wanted to become a god whereas the evil within Majora's Mask sought to destroy an entire planet.

Overused, or more prominent? I myself noticed that the battle between Light and Darkness has become the main focus of the series since FSA, although the concept is not exactly new and dates back to the original LoZ.

Also, you forget that Ganondorf also wanted to destroy the entire world; the only difference between him and Majora is that the way this was to be achieved was very different. The fabric of Hyrule is based on Light and Order, the antithesis of Darkness and Destruction that Ganondorf embodies and empowers. By banishing Light & Order, Darkness dominates the world. Ganondorf conquers the world by destroying the world. Ganondorf is not a being of light, but "an evil incarnation of darkness". What he wants and what the power of Darkness wants are in mutual agreement.

Actually I was making the point that circumstances were beyond the Sages' control and while they accepted blame for everything going wrong in the Twilight Realm it wasn't really their fault when Ganondorf got the ToP.

I understand that. In itself, I have nothing against your interpretation of the quote. However, I cannot believe that the Twilight Realm would in any way destroy Ganondorf's evil magic; because that power is Darkness which does not work as Light does.

Well of course not, Link's Triforce of Courage works differently from Ganondorf's Triforce of Power.

Why didn't Link turn into a wolf then?

I didn't say it was a 'weakness' however this does show an inability to return to Hyrule - remember that Link couldn't escape the corrupted Hyrule/Twilight without Midna's help since the Twili can fully control the power of Twilight.

That explains why Ganondorf needed Zant to return to the Light World (Thanks very much! It's a puzzle piece I was missing for a while!), but not that it has any relationship with Ganondorf's disembodied form.

Edited by jhurvid, 05 February 2007 - 05:27 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

Also, you forget that Ganondorf also wanted to destroy the entire world; the only difference between him and Majora is that the way this was to be achieved was very different. The fabric of Hyrule is based on Light and Order, the antithesis of Darkness and Destruction that Ganondorf embodies and empowers. By banishing Light & Order, Darkness dominates the world. Ganondorf conquers the world by destroying the world. Ganondorf is not a being of light, but "an evil incarnation of darkness". What he wants and what the power of Darkness wants are in mutual agreement.

Your argument here is confusing and I'm finding it difficult to respond to all points made - Ganondorf, being a warlord, has always wanted to conquer over Hyrule (excluding those Oracles games as he wasn't completely revived); the actual opposite/antithesis of Order is 'Chaos', not destruction, so we can't assume Ganon would rationally want disorder to run rampant because that would ultimately threaten his own evil existence or goal; in comparison to other fictional characters Ganondorf is much like Sauron from Lord of the Rings, they're both powerful dark lords and he was viewed by some people as "the very incarnations of evil" but truthfully he was merely a servant of Evil.

Why didn't Link turn into a wolf then?

I really don't understand the question. In Twilight Princess Link transformed into a wolf because the sleeping power inside him (Triforce of Courage) was briefly awakened because he was in danger so the wolf-form protected him from changing into a spirit or even worse, a dark monster. Midna explained how this "netherealm" Hyrule had become operates.

That explains why Ganondorf needed Zant to return to the Light World (Thanks very much! It's a puzzle piece I was missing for a while!), but not that it has any relationship with Ganondorf's disembodied form.

It's almost exactly the same with ALttP storyline. Ganon had the entire might of the Triforce at his disposal but lacked the knowledge to return to the light world again so he needed Agahnim the wizard to break the Wise Men's seal.

[MikePetersSucks]

Link did not lose his physical form when he entered the Twilight Realm. In fact, the Twili themselves did not lose their physical form when they entered the Twilight Realm. The situation at the beginning of the game is misleading; the Twilight that Zant had covered Hyrule with had transformed Hyrule into a Dark World. It was in the presence of Darkness that the Hylians transformed into spirits and Link transformed into a wolf (just like when he absorbed the Shadow Crystal; an embodiment of Darkness).

Likewise, the disembodied form does not show weakness. That same form destroyed the Fused Shadows in TP's ending and subsequently showed Ganondorf as a human.

1) Link didn't lose his Hylian Form in the Twilight Realm because he had the Master Sword, obviously.
2) The Twili probably either didn't lose their normal forms because they were magically forced to adapt to it or something, I dunno.
3) The Twilight Zant covered Hyrule with was...like, oh my god, Twilight. It's no different than the Twilight Realm itself, says Midna herself. The only difference is that when Link was forced into Wolf Form, he had no Master Sword.
4) It was in the presence of Twilight, not Darkness. Zelda even says that the Shadow Crystal is different than the magic that previously transformed him. Twilight and Darkness have the same transforming effect on the people of Light, but the Darkness is stronger at it and doesn't dissolve along with the Twilight Realm.

[Raien]

Your argument here is confusing and I'm finding it difficult to respond to all points made - Ganondorf, being a warlord, has always wanted to conquer over Hyrule (excluding those Oracles games as he wasn't completely revived); the actual opposite/antithesis of Order is 'Chaos', not destruction, so we can't assume Ganon would rationally want disorder to run rampant because that would ultimately threaten his own evil existence or goal; in comparison to other fictional characters Ganondorf is much like Sauron from Lord of the Rings, they're both powerful dark lords and he was viewed by some people as "the very incarnations of evil" but truthfully he was merely a servant of Evil.

Destruction is one of the concepts that exists as part of Chaos. Greed, Malice, Hatred, Anguish, Despair, Sorrow are also concepts that have been associated with the power of Darkness and Chaos. Disorder would not threaten Ganon's goals at all, because such destruction would bring forth the aforementioned emotions from the people of Hyrule, which would then empower him further. And then once Hyrule is completely covered in Darkness, Ganon would be completely unstoppable since he would be in control of the very air of Darkness itself.

Even though Majora's Mask tried to destroy Termina, what would remain of that land, had he succeeded, would still be bathed in Light. Over time, Termina could be rebuilt and reinhabited. However, the concept of covering Hyrule in Darkness is much more permanent destruction. If Ganon transforms Hyrule into the Dark World, there is no hope for the people, no light to save them from the nightmare. Without the light, the people would be transformed and the land deformed. Although you cannot actually see Hell in the Zelda series because of the age restrictions, the developers are trying to put the point across that the Dark World is a form of Hell itself.

I really don't understand the question. In Twilight Princess Link transformed into a wolf because the sleeping power inside him (Triforce of Courage) was briefly awakened because he was in danger so the wolf-form protected him from changing into a spirit or even worse, a dark monster. Midna explained how this "netherealm" Hyrule had become operates.

When Link enters the areas of Hyrule that have become covered in Twilight, Link transforms into a wolf.
When Link comes into direct contact with the power of Darkness (the Shadow Crystals), Link transforms into a wolf.
When Link enters the Twilight Realm proper through the Twilight Mirror, he does not transform into a wolf.

From these three facts, I infer that it is Darkness, not Twilight, that actually transforms Link. I actually made a simple topic to explain the mechanics of the Light World and Twilight Realm, using evidence provided by Midna and the Master Sword. This should hopefully make everything a lot clearer.

http://forums.legend...mp;#entry294501

It's almost exactly the same with ALttP storyline. Ganon had the entire might of the Triforce at his disposal but lacked the knowledge to return to the light world again so he needed Agahnim the wizard to break the Wise Men's seal.

I think what that scene in ALTTP meant was that there were no passages that led to Hyrule from the Sacred Realm. Therefore, Ganon had to create his own passage, but the Sages' seal had to be broken before this could be accomplished.

1) Link didn't lose his Hylian Form in the Twilight Realm because he had the Master Sword, obviously.
2) The Twili probably either didn't lose their normal forms because they were magically forced to adapt to it or something, I dunno.
3) The Twilight Zant covered Hyrule with was...like, oh my god, Twilight. It's no different than the Twilight Realm itself, says Midna herself. The only difference is that when Link was forced into Wolf Form, he had no Master Sword.
4) It was in the presence of Twilight, not Darkness. Zelda even says that the Shadow Crystal is different than the magic that previously transformed him. Twilight and Darkness have the same transforming effect on the people of Light, but the Darkness is stronger at it and doesn't dissolve along with the Twilight Realm.

1) The power of the Master Sword (the power of Light) had no effect in the Twilight Realm, just as the power of the Sols (the power of Twilight) had no effect in the Light World.
2) Midna said that the tribe became Twili over time.

To answer points 3 & 4, I have admittedly returned to an older theory that I had before the one in my "mechanics" topic. I have been hesitant to use it because it required that I define a concept that has not been explained in the game itself.

Simply put, the Shadow beasts are referred to as "the beasts of twilight", yet we know that they were beasts transformed by Ganondorf's magic (Darkness). Therefore, my argument is that the area where Twilight covers the Light World has suffered likewise; it is actually a "Dark Twilight". It is twilight but it has become corrupted by Ganondorf's magic. The Shadow Crystals are not Dark Twilight but actual embodiments of Darkness, thus they are different from the Dark Twilight that corrupted Hyrule.

Edited by jhurvid, 05 February 2007 - 08:12 PM.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Okay, so I still couldn't find any good videos or screenshots to compare the past an present Mirror Chamber, but I went to the present version in one of my saves and it didn't look too decayed except for a few spots, but I may still have an argument for Ganondorf being in the Twilight Realm for a long time before finally appearing to Zant. Enough time must have passed between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess that the Temple of Time would be in its current condition. It makes no sense for Ganondorf to spend a great deal of time in the Twilight Realm if his being awakened didn't happen there. His being sealed by the Sages would have had to have happened no more than a few years before the game starts, but that means it must have taken years (and by years I mean at least a century) for the Sages to have finally brought him to justice, otherwise the Temple of Time shouldn't have decayed much at all.

So did "the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm" seriously run amok in Hyrule for such a long time before being brought to justice? Did the Hero of Time do nothing to stop him? He and his band of thieves were causing trouble in Hyrule for such a long time before finally being brought to justice?

Or is your theory that he escaped (or was removed from) the Sacred Realm to be executed? How does that match up with him being "exposed, subdued, and brought to justice" because "in all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger?"

If he was brought to justice shortly after the ending of Ocarina of Time, then the Link we're playing should be the Hero of Time, rather than some new Link that was probably born generations later. So, how do you account for such a long time passing between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess if that whole awakening/empowerment thing happened over the course of a few seconds in the Mirror Chamber, and not over the course of several years (possibly centuries) in the Twilight Realm?

[FDL]

OoT Link had to have done something to stop him. For all we know, that's the big difference in a child timeline. Link's traveling back and forth through time and stuff did some things that helped with Hyrule and then his being in the "child time" after he completely saved the "adult time" helped in changing the events further. This could even explain why Link appears older in MM, rather than looking just as he did in the end of OoT. Really, I'm getting sick of wondering, I want someone from Nintendo to explain the connection between OoT and TP. It's obviously there, but I'm a bit confused as to what happened and what didn't happen if TP is in a child timeline.

[Evilsbane]

OoT Link had to have done something to stop him. For all we know, that's the big difference in a child timeline. Link's traveling back and forth through time and stuff did some things that helped with Hyrule and then his being in the "child time" after he completely saved the "adult time" helped in changing the events further. This could even explain why Link appears older in MM, rather than looking just as he did in the end of OoT. Really, I'm getting sick of wondering, I want someone from Nintendo to explain the connection between OoT and TP. It's obviously there, but I'm a bit confused as to what happened and what didn't happen if TP is in a child timeline.

I still maintain that FSA fits into the CT nicely if you place it immediately after OoT. Just assume Link went back in time to before he first met Zelda, and that last scene in OoT is them meeting all over again. Everyone agrees that if that were the case, Link would have to do something about Ganondorf:
Link: Uh, your highness, Ganondorf is trying to steal the Triforce.
King: Nonsense, Ganondorf was just here the other day telling me how nice my new shoes looked. Besides, noone can break into the Sacred Realm without removing the Master Sword, and evil people can't touch that. It's fool-proof.
Link: (well, I don't suppose telling him a tale of time-travelling will convince him)...well, he's been bothering the Zoras and the Gorons.
King: Really?
Link: Yeah. In fact, Darunia is pretty pissed that you're ignoring the whole crisis. 'Sworn Brother', all that jazz.
King: Oh, right. I'll look into that.
Link: You do that. I'll just get busy about lifting the curses he's placed all over the place.
(Later)
King: GANONDORF! You've been causing trouble all over the place!
Gerudos: GANONDORF! We thought you were cool! You loser!
Koume/Kotake: We still love ya, honey!
Ganondorf: Yeah, yeah, whatever. Get it over with.
King: BANISHED!!!
Ganondorf: Curses, foiled again! I'll be back!! In fact, I've heard about some fancy Dark Mirror off in the forest...(exit)
Zelda: Hey Link, there's this sword I want you to see.
Link: Seen the Master Sword already, babe. I wouldn't mess with it, though. Seven years in stasis isn't as trippy as it sounds.
Zelda: No, no, another sword. I've been sensing weakness in this seal that was placed on Vaati the Wind Mage centuries ago.
Link: Well, I HAVE been messing with the fabric of the space/time continuum, so yeah. No surprises there.
Vaati: I awake! I iz a big hit wit da laydeez! Come on Zelda, back to MY crib!
Zelda: Aaagh!
Vaati: WHAMMO!!
Link: I'll take care of this (removes sword, splits in four)
Green: To the Palace of Winds!
Blue: Chill, dude. It'll still be there in the morning.
Green: But the princess...
Red: Haven't you EVER played a Nintendo game? No matter how many times you save a princess, she immediately gets kidnapped again... so why bother rushing? So she can get kidnapped again sooner?
Purple: Word.
Green: Makes sense, I guess. Now that you mention it, Princess Peach IS kinda useless... I mean Zelda. Zelda, of course.
Purple: Word.
(One Purple Haze later)
Red: Whoa Blue, I don't swing that way.
Blue: It's not gay if we're the same person.
Green: All in favour of not letting Blue back in when we reunite after all this? Say Aye!
Red: Aye.
Blue: Nay!
Purple: Word.
Green: Motion carried.
Blue: Damn.
Green: Can we save Zelda NOW?
(skip to end of game)
Vaati: Aggh no, I'm melting... melting... what a world, what a world... No! Not inside the Four Sword again!
Links: QUEST COMPLETED! REUNITED! Not you, Blue.
Blue: Damn.
Ganondorf: Hmm, that Vaati fellow seems to have given them quite a bit of trouble. Now that I've stolen this Dark Mirror, I can make my glorious comeback! Go, Dark Link, kidnap the Shrine Maidens who are free to be the Sages without any contradiction since OoT's future never happened and I don't even know about it!
Link: Damn. Okay, Four Sword Time again! Blue, you can come too!
Blue: YAY!
Vaati: I awake! I iz a big hit wit da...
Links: shut up.
Vaati: Fine! Back to my crib!
Kaepora Gaebora: Hello, my name is...
Links: We've already met. You just don't remember because we went back in time...
Kaepora: I'll get me coat.
Links: good.
Scrubs: Yay Ganon!
Ganon: quiet! I'm stealing the Trident that I heard about in my youth!
Links: Zelda! We'll save you! Die, Vaati!
Vaati: I iz ded.
Zelda: Thanks, Links!
Ganon: Now that all the pieces are in place, I can crush you ALL!!
Links, Zelda: DENIED!!!
Ganon: Nooo, I'm inside a sword!
(later)
Link(reunited): Your highness, perhaps a more permanent solution to Ganon is called for?
King: Won't the Four Sword suffice?
Link: Vaati got out. TWICE.
King: Good point.
Link: Well, I'll let you deal with it. I've got a hankerin' to venture through spacetime again. I hear Termina is lovely this time of year.
King: I'll get right on that 'executing Ganon' thing. No procrastinating here. It definitely WON'T take centuries until some Sages finally get round to it.
Link: That would be best, alright.
King: Wow, I've just realised you've done a lot of cool stuff. You'll probably be remembered as a hero for centuries to come...
Link: ...
Link, King: NAAAAAAAH...

[FDL]

So, why does OoT's ending and TP tell us that Link had the Triforce of Courage? The actual dialogue really makes FSA not work with OoT. And do you honestly think that the King didn't know about the Gorons and the Zoras? I think he just trusted Ganondorf quite a bit. Look at the FSA quote FAQ, it really doesn't work with OoT. The idea of the King being warned really doesn't work. Still, you're abridged version was entertaining, even if I don't agree with it.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 05 February 2007 - 07:47 PM.

[Raien]

Okay, so I still couldn't find any good videos or screenshots to compare the past an present Mirror Chamber, but I went to the present version in one of my saves and it didn't look too decayed except for a few spots, but I may still have an argument for Ganondorf being in the Twilight Realm for a long time before finally appearing to Zant. Enough time must have passed between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess that the Temple of Time would be in its current condition. It makes no sense for Ganondorf to spend a great deal of time in the Twilight Realm if his being awakened didn't happen there. His being sealed by the Sages would have had to have happened no more than a few years before the game starts, but that means it must have taken years (and by years I mean at least a century) for the Sages to have finally brought him to justice, otherwise the Temple of Time shouldn't have decayed much at all.

So did "the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm" seriously run amok in Hyrule for such a long time before being brought to justice? Did the Hero of Time do nothing to stop him? He and his band of thieves were causing trouble in Hyrule for such a long time before finally being brought to justice?

Or is your theory that he escaped (or was removed from) the Sacred Realm to be executed? How does that match up with him being "exposed, subdued, and brought to justice" because "in all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger?"

If he was brought to justice shortly after the ending of Ocarina of Time, then the Link we're playing should be the Hero of Time, rather than some new Link that was probably born generations later. So, how do you account for such a long time passing between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess if that whole awakening/empowerment thing happened over the course of a few seconds in the Mirror Chamber, and not over the course of several years (possibly centuries) in the Twilight Realm?

The "exposed, subdued" part refers to Ganondorf's entrapment within the Sacred Realm at the end of OoT. The "brought to justice" part refers to the Arbiter's Grounds which, as the name tells us, was used to bring evil to justice, such as the Twili's ancestors and the Dark Sword (the mini-boss that was sealed in the bowels of the grounds).

In my personal opinion, Ganondorf was trapped in the Sacred Realm for centuries, when the TP Sages decided that they should kill Ganondorf and rid the world of his evil magic once and for all.

PS: The Master Sword did not necessarily act as the key for the Sages' seal on Ganondorf in OoT. In fact, the Master Sword possesses no obvious connection to the Sacred Realm in TP, which suggests this is the case.

Edited by jhurvid, 05 February 2007 - 08:09 PM.

[FDL]

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's not that impossible. I could definetly see some group of Sages trying to be heroic and attempt to execute Ganon and failing miserably. Not so perposterous.

[Evilsbane]

So, why does OoT's ending and TP tell us that Link had the Triforce of Courage? The actual dialogue really makes FSA not work with OoT. And do you honestly think that the King didn't know about the Gorons and the Zoras? I think he just trusted Ganondorf quite a bit. Look at the FSA quote FAQ, it really doesn't work with OoT. The idea of the King being warned really doesn't work. Still, you're abridged version was entertaining, even if I don't agree with it.

Link DID have the ToC. It shows him with it in the final OoT scene, I believe, so the fact that Link brought the ToC back in time means one more of those paradoxes happened, but he brought it back with him. Dunno how the Goddesses fixed that one.
If the King DID know about the Gorons at least, then he was very slow on acting because Darunia was expecting a messenger from the castle when Link showed up. He even complained that it was a poor show on the King's part to neglect his Sworn Brother that way. As for the quote FAQ not matching up, you have to bear in mind that time travel to the CT meant a lot of OoT didn't actually happen: Ganondorf amounted to nothing more than a petty criminal who bothered the Gorons and the Zoras briefly, and killed a tree. The OoT Sages never got awakened, Koume and Kotake were never killed (freeing them to be killed in OoX), and Link never met Kaepora or Nabooru or whoever. Ganon got punished for breaking the law and Vaati soon made everyone (except Link) forget who he even was - until he stole the Mirror and Trident, killed four Knights of Hyrule (at least), attacked the castle and got sealed away.

[BourgeoisJerry]

The "exposed, subdued" part refers to Ganondorf's entrapment within the Sacred Realm at the end of OoT. The "brought to justice" part refers to the Arbiter's Grounds which, as the name tells us, was used to bring evil to justice, such as the Twili and the Dark Sword (the mini-boss that was sealed in the bowels of the grounds).

In my personal opinion, Ganondorf was trapped in the Sacred Realm for centuries, when the TP Sages decided that they should kill Ganondorf and rid the world of his evil magic once and for all.

To clarify, was this after the adult ending or child ending? It's true that he was "the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm" no matter which ending the game follows, but in the adult ending he wasn't really "exposed," and the quote about him hoping to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm implies that he was unsuccessful. If the game follows Link returning and locking Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm by placing the Master Sword in the Pedestal of Time while he was there, that also leaves the question of how he was "exposed and subdued." If the game follows Ganondorf being defeated in the past and sealed to the Sacred Realm, that leaves the question how Ganondorf was defeated without the Master Sword.

[Raien]

To clarify, was this after the adult ending or child ending? It's true that he was "the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm" no matter which ending the game follows, but in the adult ending he wasn't really "exposed," and the quote about him hoping to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm implies that he was unsuccessful. If the game follows Link returning and locking Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm by placing the Master Sword in the Pedestal of Time while he was there, that also leaves the question of how he was "exposed and subdued." If the game follows Ganondorf being defeated in the past and sealed to the Sacred Realm, that leaves the question how Ganondorf was defeated without the Master Sword.

I am following the adult ending. Link "exposed" Ganondorf to the Sages' power when he stabbed him in the head with the Master Sword. The Sages then "subdued" Ganondorf by sealing him away in the Sacred Realm. The TP Sages then "brought him to justice" by bringing him to the Arbiter's Grounds for execution.

Also, we have no evidence that the Master Sword acted as a key to the Sages' seal in OoT.

Edited by jhurvid, 05 February 2007 - 08:17 PM.

[FDL]

No, see, that's just lazy. You can say the Goddesses did anything, we really don't need a timeline with that excuse. If you go by the games, however, Ganondorf wasn't just some petty criminal, he was the King if Thieves, and there is no mention of the Dark Mirror or Trident in TP. What is mentioned? Ganondorf being a leader of thieves who tried to get into the Sacred Realm. What was the game that had Ganon in this role? OoT. Not only that, but in FSA Ganondorf is loathed by the Gerudo, while in OoT he is worshipped like a god. Say what you will about time travel, it just doesn't really work the way you think it does in this case.

Edit: That goes to Evilsbane, BTW.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 05 February 2007 - 08:38 PM.

[Ogmios22188]

I'd just like to say something about Link having the Triforce of Courage at the end of Ocarina of Time. First, we must assume that Link was actually sent back in time to after Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm. That way, there aren't two Links running around in the past. After the initial attack, Zelda and Impa must've returned to the Castle. Anyway, after Link was sent back in time, the Triforce of Courage of the future left him, and scattered as it's seen in "The Wind Waker". Upon returning to the past, he receives that time's Triforce of Courage, since we know that after Ganondorf touched the Triforce, it split up and went to the three of them. That way, there aren't two Triforces of Courage or two Links at the same time.

[FDL]

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. It works easiest if we just have it that everything that happened in OoT happens, and then he gets sent back to after he got the Silver Gauntlets or something. That way, we have one Link and an explanation as to why he has the Triforce. There are plenty of ways Ganon could have been subdued, even with as simple an explanation that with Link not frozen in time Ganondorf was unable to take over Hyrule. I, personally, think that it's possible that the Sages seal transcended time and without the evil power flowing from the SR, Ganon may not have been able to take over Hyrule.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 06 February 2007 - 01:48 PM.

[Evilsbane]

No, see, that's just lazy. You can say the Goddesses did anything, we really don't need a timeline with that excuse. If you go by the games, however, Ganondorf wasn't just some petty criminal, he was the King if Thieves, and there is no mention of the Dark Mirror or Trident in TP. What is mentioned? Ganondorf being a leader of thieves who tried to get into the Sacred Realm. What was the game that had Ganon in this role? OoT. Not only that, but in FSA Ganondorf is loathed by the Gerudo, while in OoT he is worshipped like a god. Say what you will about time travel, it just doesn't really work the way you think it does in this case.

Edit: That goes to Evilsbane, BTW.

I'll accept that there's no proof to support my placement of FSA in TP's quotes. However, Ganondorf is frowned upon by the Gerudo in FSA because he went bad. The boss Gerudo lady says as much - that he was meant to be a Guardian to the tribe but became twisted and evil. He was worshipped like a god in OoT but things can change if you get deposed - ask Saddam Hussein. His cult of personality was omnipresent in Iraq before the war. The Dark Mirror COULD be the Twilight Mirror - it unlocks evil in a person's soul (Dark Link, Yeta), and it was used long ago to seal away a Dark Tribe, according to FSA. As for the Trident, I'm not sure it NEEDS to be mentioned in TP; it's not like it's important to the storyline in TP: they're much more worried about the ToP they discovered he had at the execution.
Mainly, I think it's good because it avoids making a HUGE assumption (that there are two different Ganondorfs with two origins), and rather makes smaller assumptions (Ganondorf had a fall from grace after OoT, Ganondorf got the ToP anyway but didn't know it.
If you like, you can go by your own theory that Link goes back in time to when he first removed the Master Sword instead of further back to before he met Zelda - it doesn't disprove the FSA theory, and might even make the FSA theory more consistent.
Anyway, my point is that FSA can fill in a lot of the blanks in what happens in between OoT and FSA. I think it's a good theory, anyway.

[FDL]

I'd rather it was after Link's child OoT adventures, because it works btter that way, but I'm still not sure about it. I mean, I like that you're trying to make things less redundant by having Ganondorf not have two backstories, but [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of it doesn't work with OoT and TP, in my eyes. FSA still works best with ALttP, IMO. It can work the way you have it, I just don't like it as much as you do. I agree that Ganondorf could have fallen from grace after OoT, but I can't see how. Because he failed to steal the Triforce? Because if we go by OoT, the act of stealing the Triforce was not frowned upon by the Gerudo. They still refer to him as the great Ganondorf, even in the adult time. Plus, we have Zelda explaining to Link who Ganondorf is, we have the Maidens surprised that Ganondorf is evil, and we have the Miadens themselves for that matter. Who are they? Why are they not mentioned in neither OoT nor TP?

[Mgoblue201]

You're stating one conclusion because you're acting like the end result is fact. In order to assume that the Twili possessed some ability that Ganon did not have, we would first have to assume everything else you said is true and that there is no other explanation. Otherwise you're simply making stuff up to suit your theory.

Midna letting Link in and letting Link escape proves nothing. That deals with the Twilight Realm's spread over Hyrule. People could not escape because of the mirror. As we can see, Link can go to and from the Twilight Realm freely now that he has control of the mirror. Zant might have had power over twilight, but he had absolutely no power over the one key to breaking out of the twilight, the mirror. He couldn't even completely shatter it. Midna could go to and from the twilight at will because there was no check over it. As Link shows, anybody can leave the Twilight Realm as long as the path is open via the mirror. That's like a bridge between the light world and twilight world that anybody can enter. The only way back to the light world was through the mirror as Midna explicitely tells us. No fancy power of twilight could have opened it. If Ganon was fully empowered by that point, all he needed to do was open up the path back to the light world. The game offers absolutely no indication that Zant had any power to do this.

You may object and say that Zant and Midna were able to go from world to world apart from the mirror. However, keep this in mind. When was Midna able to go back and forth at will? When twilight conquered light. When both were in equilibrium, Midna could only get back to the Twilight Realm through the mirror. We have this line:

Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one
link between the light and the darkness.
Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of
Hyrule...
It's our only path to the Twilight Realm...and we must get there!

Of course, how do we know twilight didn't simply radiate from the Twilight Realm and overtake Hyrule? Well there seems to be nothing in the game to suggest that, but also, Zant did not originally use twilight to escape if you remember. No, he attacked Hyrule Castle, and from there he began to spread his twilight. So where did he originally come from? The only known place is the mirror. Zant might have had power over the twilight, but that did not give him the means to escape.

It's all a bit of speculation, but any theory on this is. The game never clearly establishes how they are able to go from twilight to light and back again. But since the game says the mirror is the only connection, let's look at the mirror itself. The mirror simply forms a connection between the two worlds. The relationship between the worlds is a bit ambiguous. Midna tells us that it's the antithesis of Hyrule, meaning extreme opposite. The best I can surmise is that it's a world running parallel. Anyway, it appears that a connection can be formed anywhere, but it simply takes a certain power to do it. In this case the mirror (I like the use of mirror because its connotates another world beyond the glass that acts in equal proportions to our own). But the mirror itself, despite its name, is not twilight in property. It was originally used by the sages, and even Link can use it. It simply is named so because it forms a link to the Twilight Realm. Therefore it stands to reason that a power other than twilight can establish a connection between the two worlds. Perhaps it took darkness to form a bridge between the two. But still, if Zant was Ganon's only real ticket out of there, why didn't Ganon just dump Zant immediately after escaping? He could've conquered Hyrule on his own. He didn't need Zant. And then why was Zant merely content to let Link assemble the mirror shards while he did nothing? It wasn't even like OOT where Ganon set obstacles up for Link. Nothing Link faced from beyond the fourth dungeon was of Zant's direct doing (the obstacles Link faced assembling the shards were a result of the shards, not a result of Zant doing anything in the moment). He wouldn't be sitting in the castle for so long. Not only would that make the last half of the game nearly irrelevant, but Ganon wanted to blot out the light. He wouldn't just be sitting there. These actions do not make any sense if Ganon's use of Zant ended as soon as he was able to escape back into the light world.

I'll ask this again. How do we know for sure that Ganon was empowered by an outside force? We do not see anything to give Ganon that empowerment. What I'm saying is, you keep going on and on about how that was the scene that Ganon was talking about. But how do you know for sure? You're simply assuming that Ganon could feel the Twili's malice at that moment. Sure you can point toward Ganon's words about being awakened and see that he was empowered. But you absolutely cannot prove that there was another source empowering Ganon. You would have to assume that. In the twilight scene, we see Ganon approach Zant upon Zant's hatred and despair. Of course, we'd have to assume that he becomes empowered upon that moment, but it's a simple matter of putting two and two together (for instance, in other games, like LTTP, a check is also put on Ganon's power, so it stands to reason that it would work in that fashion here, too). Let's look at this as a timeline.

Ganon is sealed in Twilight Realm -> Ganon remains sealed for a time -> Ganon approaches Zant upon Zant's despair and houses his power inside of him -> Zant overthrows Midna -> Zant conquers the Twili and causes them much suffering -> Zant escapes to Hyrule and conquers the castle -> Zant spreads twilight -> Link defeats twilight -> Zant disappears from Hyrule -> Ganon is reborn into the world -> Link defeats Zant

Does this really sound like the actions of a man that simply needed a vehicle out of the twilight? It sounds like the actions of a man who had to wait a time to fully be reborn into his full power. These actions go along exactly like I had proposed in my theory. However, you're trying to wrap your theory around the actions. It would require trying to shoehorn the pre TP events into places they don't belong. If the Twili still possessed malice, enough malice to awaken Ganon, then that would mean that Ganon's sealing would happen very close to OOT (as the Twili's sealing would have to be before OOT, and Ganon would have to be sealed before the Twili lost that malice). And yet he was in the Twilight Realm until shortly before TP. So that means Ganon was floating out there for no reason. And if the Twili still possessed malice when Ganon was sealed, then why didn't he use one of them to escape? So this literally makes no sense to begin with. Then you'd have to contend that Ganon went through all of these actions, conquering the Twili, conquering Hyrule, spreading twilight, waiting for absolutely no reason while Link was free to do whatever he wanted, when he easily could have simply gone back to the world of light, which you insinuate was his one plan all along, and not had to worry about all of the rest. At the end of the day, this theory is simply too messy. Maybe I'm wrong on some accounts. Maybe Ganon really did need Zant to go back. But their relationship cannot end there. Ganon needed time before he could be reborn fully. That's a fact. None of this aligns with your theory.

Edited by Mgoblue201, 07 February 2007 - 02:21 PM.

[Raien]

Midna letting Link in and letting Link escape proves nothing. That deals with the Twilight Realm's spread over Hyrule. People could not escape because of the mirror. As we can see, Link can go to and from the Twilight Realm freely now that he has control of the mirror. Zant might have had power over twilight, but he had absolutely no power over the one key to breaking out of the twilight, the mirror. He couldn't even completely shatter it. Midna could go to and from the twilight at will because there was no check over it. As Link shows, anybody can leave the Twilight Realm as long as the path is open via the mirror. That's like a bridge between the light world and twilight world that anybody can enter. The only way back to the light world was through the mirror as Midna explicitely tells us. No fancy power of twilight could have opened it. If Ganon was fully empowered by that point, all he needed to do was open up the path back to the light world. The game offers absolutely no indication that Zant had any power to do this.

You may object and say that Zant and Midna were able to go from world to world apart from the mirror. However, keep this in mind. When was Midna able to go back and forth at will? When twilight conquered light. When both were in equilibrium, Midna could only get back to the Twilight Realm through the mirror. We have this line:

Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one
link between the light and the darkness.
Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of
Hyrule...
It's our only path to the Twilight Realm...and we must get there!

Of course, how do we know twilight didn't simply radiate from the Twilight Realm and overtake Hyrule? Well there seems to be nothing in the game to suggest that, but also, Zant did not originally use twilight to escape if you remember. No, he attacked Hyrule Castle, and from there he began to spread his twilight. So where did he originally come from? The only known place is the mirror. Zant might have had power over the twilight, but that did not give him the means to escape.

The Twilight Mirror only activates the portal between realms from the Light World. It was Zant's own power, as Midna states, that he used to travel between the realms and banish Midna to the Light World. Knowing that there was another way back to the Twilight Realm, Midna sought the Mirror of Twilight, only to find that Zant had got there first and broken it. The reason why Zant broke it was exactly to prevent anyone from travelling between the realms without his power.

I will explain the alternative point against your next quote.

It's all a bit of speculation, but any theory on this is. The game never clearly establishes how they are able to go from twilight to light and back again. But since the game says the mirror is the only connection, let's look at the mirror itself. The mirror simply forms a connection between the two worlds. The relationship between the worlds is a bit ambiguous. Midna tells us that it's the antithesis of Hyrule, meaning extreme opposite. The best I can surmise is that it's a world running parallel. Anyway, it appears that a connection can be formed anywhere, but it simply takes a certain power to do it. In this case the mirror (I like the use of mirror because its connotates another world beyond the glass that acts in equal proportions to our own). But the mirror itself, despite its name, is not twilight in property. It was originally used by the sages, and even Link can use it. It simply is named so because it forms a link to the Twilight Realm. Therefore it stands to reason that a power other than twilight can establish a connection between the two worlds. Perhaps it took darkness to form a bridge between the two. But still, if Zant was Ganon's only real ticket out of there, why didn't Ganon just dump Zant immediately after escaping? He could've conquered Hyrule on his own. He didn't need Zant. And then why was Zant merely content to let Link assemble the mirror shards while he did nothing? It wasn't even like OOT where Ganon set obstacles up for Link. Nothing Link faced from beyond the fourth dungeon was of Zant's direct doing (the obstacles Link faced assembling the shards were a result of the shards, not a result of Zant doing anything in the moment). He wouldn't be sitting in the castle for so long. Not only would that make the last half of the game nearly irrelevant, but Ganon wanted to blot out the light. He wouldn't just be sitting there. These actions do not make any sense if Ganon's use of Zant ended as soon as he was able to escape back into the light world.

No one is arguing against the view that Ganondorf needed Zant to spread Darkness in the Light World; I am simply arguing against the view that Ganondorf needed Zant for his own empowerment by malice.

You are correct when you said that the Twilight can connect to Hyrule anywhere if there is enough power to form that connection. And the only person we know that can actually wield that power is Zant, which we know to be the power of Darkness. This is why Midna could not make that connection, she did not possess that power. Ganondorf possessed the power himself, but not the Twili's inherent ability to connect Light and Shadow. Hence, only Zant had that combination.

I'll ask this again. How do we know for sure that Ganon was empowered by an outside force? We do not see anything to give Ganon that empowerment. What I'm saying is, you keep going on and on about how that was the scene that Ganon was talking about. But how do you know for sure? You're simply assuming that Ganon could feel the Twili's malice at that moment. Sure you can point toward Ganon's words about being awakened and see that he was empowered. But you absolutely cannot prove that there was another source empowering Ganon. You would have to assume that. In the twilight scene, we see Ganon approach Zant upon Zant's hatred and despair. Of course, we'd have to assume that he becomes empowered upon that moment, but it's a simple matter of putting two and two together (for instance, in other games, like LTTP, a check is also put on Ganon's power, so it stands to reason that it would work in that fashion here, too).

So what you're saying is, apart from all the evidence that Ganondorf was empowered by the malice of the Twili's ancestors, I still have no evidence that Ganondorf was empowered by the malice of the Twili's evidence.

Ganon is sealed in Twilight Realm -> Ganon remains sealed for a time -> Ganon approaches Zant upon Zant's despair and houses his power inside of him -> Zant overthrows Midna -> Zant conquers the Twili and causes them much suffering -> Zant escapes to Hyrule and conquers the castle -> Zant spreads twilight -> Link defeats twilight -> Zant disappears from Hyrule -> Ganon is reborn into the world -> Link defeats Zant

You presume that Ganon is sealed for a long time in the Twilight Realm before approaching Zant. I presume that Ganondorf remained sealed within the Sacred Realm until the TP Sages brought him out to execute him. This model cannot be used as a basis for evidence.

Edited by jhurvid, 07 February 2007 - 02:43 PM.

[Mgoblue201]

You're gonna have to prove that Midna said that Zant went to the light world because of his own power. You can't just state it. I have looked over all of the major dialogue, and I didn't see anything of it. Can you prove Zant had a power that allowed him to escape? My entire point was that twilight was not needed to form the connection. The mirror itself does not contain the power of twilight, and yet it was able to form a connection. Can you prove that Zant was needed to connect light and shadow?

I think you completely missed my point, or you're simply ignoring it. If Ganon was brought to the Mirror Chamber only a short time before TP, then by that time the Twili's malice would have cooled. There would have been nothing to empower Ganon. And you're still not answering my questions. If he simply needed Zant to escape, then why do all of the other stuff? Nothing of what you're saying makes sense. We see nothing in that scene to empower Ganon. The Twili's malice has cooled. There is nothing to prove that Zant had an ability that Ganon needed to escape. And it still wouldn't explain why it took so long for Ganon to come back to the light world.

So what you're saying is, apart from all the evidence that Ganondorf was empowered by the malice of the Twili's ancestors, I still have no evidence that Ganondorf was empowered by the malice of the Twili's evidence.

I'm saying you cannot prove that the Twili's malice had absolutely anything to do with that scene.

[Raien]

You're gonna have to prove that Midna said that Zant went to the light world because of his own power. You can't just state it. I have looked over all of the major dialogue, and I didn't see anything of it. Can you prove Zant had a power that allowed him to escape? My entire point was that twilight was not needed to form the connection. The mirror itself does not contain the power of twilight, and yet it was able to form a connection. Can you prove that Zant was needed to connect light and shadow?

Here is your quote.

It was a peaceful place.. until Zant took control of the Twilight Realm and transformed all the Twili into shadow beasts. It's clear to me now that he somehow gained a great evil power previously unknown to our tribe... In any case, I was sent from there, and I could no longer get into the Twilight Realm without his power.

...But there’s another tale told by my people. Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one link between the light and the darkness. Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of Hyrule… It’s our only path to the Twilight Realm, and we must get there!

I think you completely missed my point, or you're simply ignoring it. If Ganon was brought to the Mirror Chamber only a short time before TP, then by that time the Twili's malice would have cooled. There would have been nothing to empower Ganon. And you're still not answering my questions. If he simply needed Zant to escape, then why do all of the other stuff? Nothing of what you're saying makes sense. We see nothing in that scene to empower Ganon. The Twili's malice has cooled. There is nothing to prove that Zant had an ability that Ganon needed to escape. And it still wouldn't explain why it took so long for Ganon to come back to the light world.

You are right, the current Twili's malice would have cooled, which proves that they did not empower Ganondorf. My argument is that the malice of the Twili's ancestors, which was preserved within the Twilight Mirror (giving it its' evil power), was the source of Ganondorf's empowerment.

Zant had the ability to pass between light and shadow because he is a member of the Twili. However, he lacks the power to travel between the realms themselves, which is where Ganondorf's power gave him the strength to do so.

And we have no evidence that Ganondorf took "so long" to return to the Light World. It could have been less than a year for all we know, and then we need to account for the time it took for the Twilight to spread across Hyrule.

I'm saying you cannot prove that the Twili's malice had absolutely anything to do with that scene.

Despite that we are only shown one empowerment in which Ganondorf awakened and we are only told about one empowerment in which Ganondorf awakened.

Edited by jhurvid, 07 February 2007 - 05:49 PM.

[Fyxe]

jhurvid, you are taking 'awakened' very literally. Ganondorf was never shown to be asleep at a single point in the game. Even unconscious is pushing it, as it hardly counts if it was only a few seconds. I doubt he even lost consciousness. Even though the sword went straight into him at high speed, he wouldn't die that quickly, it did only go into his chest, after all.

Later on, we see Ganondorf in his 'Sauron' spiritual state, where he's presumably somewhat weakened and therefore 'dormant'. Even if he wasn't, he was stuck in the Twilight Realm. He was effectively dormant.

He makes a deal with Zant. Zant allows him to be awakened once more, by freeing him from his dormant state in the Twilight Realm. This is his empowerment.

The mirror did nothing in the execution scene, nothing other than force Ganondorf into the Twilight Realm.

Edited by Fyxe, 07 February 2007 - 05:55 PM.

[FDL]

Yeah, I agree thatGanonodrf already had the Triforce of Power, as it'd be consistent with the rest of the game as well as OoT's ending, but I agree with the othe people who say that the malice from the mirror was what he was talking about.

[Raien]

jhurvid, you are taking 'awakened' very literally. Ganondorf was never shown to be asleep at a single point in the game. Even unconscious is pushing it, as it hardly counts if it was only a few seconds. I doubt he even lost consciousness. Even though the sword went straight into him at high speed, he wouldn't die that quickly, it did only go into his chest, after all.

I really don't think that the time that had passed between the stabbing and the scene where we see the blade in his chest as accurate. Where is the lurch when the blade enters his chest (we only hear the grunt during the period where light fills the screen)? I don't think that more than a few minutes passed since the stabbing, yet I never thought that the Triforce of Power resonated so immediately after the stabbing took place.

Later on, we see Ganondorf in his 'Sauron' spiritual state, where he's presumably somewhat weakened and therefore 'dormant'. Even if he wasn't, he was stuck in the Twilight Realm. He was effectively dormant.

He was stuck in the Twilight Realm, but not necessarily weakened and not necessarily dormant. From the impression that Ganondorf gave during the cutscene, he represented absolute power to Zant ("the god") and thus was granting power to Zant, not vice versa.

He makes a deal with Zant. Zant allows him to be awakened once more, by freeing him from his dormant state in the Twilight Realm. This is his empowerment.

I disagree. We know that Ganondorf needed Zant to return to the Light World and cover it in Twilight. If there was a deal between Zant and Ganondorf, that was it. In fact, Zant says that this was Ganondorf's "only wish".

The mirror did nothing in the execution scene, nothing other than force Ganondorf into the Twilight Realm.

That's the impression we are given, until Ganondorf reveals the plot twist.

Edited by jhurvid, 07 February 2007 - 06:05 PM.

[Fyxe]

I really don't think that the time that had passed between the stabbing and the scene where we see the blade in his chest as accurate. Where is the lurch when the blade enters his chest (we only hear the grunt during the period where light fills the screen)? I don't think that more than a few minutes passed since the stabbing, yet I never thought that the Triforce of Power resonated so immediately after the stabbing took place.

The Sages are still staring at him when the Triforce of Power resonates. I think the time that passes is exactly the time we see. It just cuts away when he gets stabbed, so we don't see it actually go through him.

He was stuck in the Twilight Realm, but not necessarily weakened and not necessarily dormant. From the impression that Ganondorf gave during the cutscene, he represented absolute power to Zant ("the god") and thus was granting power to Zant, not vice versa.

I never said he wasn't doing that. Ganon still obviously had immense power. But he was effectively dormant. He had to house himself within Zant, we are told. Ganon would not have offered his power to Zant if he did not need to use Zant to release himself.

I disagree. We know that Ganondorf needed Zant to return to the Light World and cover it in Twilight. If there was a deal between Zant and Ganondorf, that was it. In fact, Zant says that this was Ganondorf's "only wish".

Either way, his release from the Twilight Realm using Zant and presumably regaining a human form within Hyrule Castle is the awakening Ganondorf is talking about.

That's the impression we are given, until Ganondorf reveals the plot twist.

How is that a plot twist? It has absolutely no relevance to the plot. It's quite a random suggestion, and your way of picking it out from the text is rather convoluted.

[Raien]

The Sages are still staring at him when the Triforce of Power resonates. I think the time that passes is exactly the time we see. It just cuts away when he gets stabbed, so we don't see it actually go through him.

Exactly, but I think some small time passed between the cutting away and the return to the scene.

I never said he wasn't doing that. Ganon still obviously had immense power. But he was effectively dormant. He had to house himself within Zant, we are told. Ganon would not have offered his power to Zant if he did not need to use Zant to release himself.

Ganon would have offered his power to Zant, if Zant needed it to return him to the Light World and cover it in Darkness, which Zant says was Ganondorf's "only wish".

Either way, his release from the Twilight Realm using Zant and presumably regaining a human form within Hyrule Castle is the awakening Ganondorf is talking about.

Why could he not have regained human form in the Twilight Realm? Link was in human form in the Twilight Realm.

How is that a plot twist? It has absolutely no relevance to the plot. It's quite a random suggestion, and your way of picking it out from the text is rather convoluted.

The empowerment of Ganondorf is a plot twist because the Sages did not actually know what had empowered him, hence they referred to it as a "divine prank" and blamed themselves. Ganondorf reveals all at the end of the game.

[Fyxe]

Why could he not have regained human form in the Twilight Realm? Link was in human form in the Twilight Realm.

Link had the Master Sword and Midna, don't forget.

I don't know for sure, but the game implied textually and visually that he only appeared in his weird spirit form. Maybe it was the way Ganondorf was forced into the Twilight Realm by the Sages. Again, this is why he was dormant.

The empowerment of Ganondorf is a plot twist because the Sages did not actually know what had empowered him, hence they referred to it as a "divine prank" and blamed themselves. Ganondorf reveals all at the end of the game.

Um, you're really taking that 'divine prank' thing way too far. To them, a man like Ganondorf being blessed with the Triforce of Power is a divine prank in itself. Why would the mirror give him the Triforce of Power? Look, that's just bloody nonsense. Are we ever told where Link and Zelda got their pieces from? No, they were presumably born with them. So why the *hell* should we be told that Ganondorf got his from a MIRROR? That makes no sense. It has no precedance. You're clutching at straws. Ockham's Razor states that your theory is somewhat loopy.

[Raien]

Link had the Master Sword and Midna, don't forget.

Midna could not prevent Link's transformation into a wolf, and the Master Sword lost its power of Light in the Twilight Realm (hence it could not repel the Shadow Crystals). Link had no real protection from the Twilight Realm. Then again, neither did the Twili's ancestors when they were sealed in the Twilight Realm; so why did they not become spirits?

Why is there a definite distinction between the "nightmare" caused by the Twilight covering Hyrule and the "serene" land that is the Twilight Realm proper?

I don't know for sure, but the game implied textually and visually that he only appeared in his weird spirit form. Maybe it was the way Ganondorf was forced into the Twilight Realm by the Sages. Again, this is why he was dormant.

He was in the exact same form that fought the Fused Shadows and won. That is no evidence of weakness.

Um, you're really taking that 'divine prank' thing way too far. To them, a man like Ganondorf being blessed with the Triforce of Power is a divine prank in itself. Why would the mirror give him the Triforce of Power? Look, that's just bloody nonsense. Are we ever told where Link and Zelda got their pieces from? No, they were presumably born with them. So why the *hell* should we be told that Ganondorf got his from a MIRROR? That makes no sense. It has no precedance. You're clutching at straws. Ockham's Razor states that your theory is somewhat loopy.

Where did I say that the mirror gave Ganondorf the Triforce of Power? I said that the Sages DID NOT KNOW what empowered Ganondorf, thus they fixed their attentions upon the only known source of his power, the Triforce of Power.


PS: I agree with you about the Sols in the "mechanics" topic. Although I found more evidence to explain why you are correct. You may want to read it, just to let me know if you agree.

Edited by jhurvid, 07 February 2007 - 06:46 PM.

[FDL]

Um, you're really taking that 'divine prank' thing way too far. To them, a man like Ganondorf being blessed with the Triforce of Power is a divine prank in itself. Why would the mirror give him the Triforce of Power? Look, that's just bloody nonsense. Are we ever told where Link and Zelda got their pieces from? No, they were presumably born with them. So why the *hell* should we be told that Ganondorf got his from a MIRROR? That makes no sense. It has no precedance. You're clutching at straws. Ockham's Razor states that your theory is somewhat loopy.

Actually, he's saying that Ganondorf had it before, the Triforce is only empowered by the Mirror. He's arguing against the belief held by many that Ganondorf was given the ToP at that time.