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Storyline Article: Defense of the Split Timeline theory


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#181 LionHarted

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 07:50 PM

Ah.

Well, if they're "spirits of the forest", that pretty much settles it. They're pretty much immortal, kiddos.

#182 Jumbie

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:10 PM

Well, if they're "spirits of the forest", that pretty much settles it. They're pretty much immortal, kiddos.

Exactly, and I've been basing all my arguments on this knowledge. While we're at it, let me point out something else in this quote:
"Once upon a time, long ago, the Koroks took on human forms, but when they came to live on the sea, they took these shapes."

'To take on' means that you previously had a different form than after the taking on. So it should be: Koroks > Kokiri > Koroks.

#183 Chaltab

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:40 PM

So it should be: Koroks > Kokiri > Koroks.


Or perhaps: Ethreal Entities > Kokiri > Koroks, as it doesn't say what they were before they took on human form. Or there's always the possibility 'took on' is a mistranslation and really means that they simply 'had' a human form.

Edited by Chaltab, 07 November 2006 - 08:41 PM.


#184 LionHarted

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:05 PM

"Once upon a time, long ago, the Koroks took on human forms, but when they came to live on the sea, they took these shapes."

When it says that they "took on human forms", it could still mean that they were born in those human forms. Long ago, all the Koroks were Kokiri; now they're Koroks. That's all this means.

#185 Raien

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 09:32 AM

Well, there are Forest Spirits within the Forest Temple in Adult OoT (which is why Saria went to the Forest Temple before she was captured).

I presume that the Forest Spirits are exactly what they are, without real distinguishable form. Then the Deku Tree transforms some of them into Kokiri and then when the Great Sea came, they were transformed into Koroks so that they might take the seeds to other islands and plant forests.

Edited by jhurvid, 08 November 2006 - 09:33 AM.


#186 CID Farwin

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 11:49 AM

"Once upon a time, long ago, the Koroks took on human forms"

Maybe because Link is a "human" form?

Long ago, all the Koroks were Kokiri; now they're Koroks. That's all this means.


What? someone in these forums actually thinks simply about something!? Amazing!

#187 Showsni

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 05:27 PM

It's easiest to call them "Forest Fairies," which is their name amongst the rest of Hyrule, and Kokiri refers specifically to the human form, Korok specifically to the plant form.

#188 Raien

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 07:12 PM

And now to wait for Jumbie's response... *twiddles thumbs*

#189 Fyxe

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 07:28 PM

Forest spirits are something else, jhurvid. Kokiris and Koroks are essentially children of the Deku Tree, but the forest spirits are that, spirits. Ghosts and benovolant spirits of the forest and the Forest Temple. The Forest Temple later becomes overrun by darker spirits, in the form of Poes and Stalfos.

Kokiris may be reincarnated spirits but essentially anything can be a reincarnated spirit. Being a spirit isn't a form, it's just... Being a spirit.

#190 Raien

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 06:30 AM

Forest spirits are something else, jhurvid. Kokiris and Koroks are essentially children of the Deku Tree, but the forest spirits are that, spirits. Ghosts and benovolant spirits of the forest and the Forest Temple. The Forest Temple later becomes overrun by darker spirits, in the form of Poes and Stalfos.

Kokiris may be reincarnated spirits but essentially anything can be a reincarnated spirit. Being a spirit isn't a form, it's just... Being a spirit.


TWW's Deku Tree states that the Koroks are Forest Spirits. Whatever form they take, be it Kokiri or Korok, they are still forest spirits. The transformation of form does not mean reincarnation, btw.

#191 Fyxe

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 01:43 PM

But 'spirits' generally means something that's already died. Not always, but generally.

I wouldn't be so sure that what Saria referred to (I don't remember if she directly mentioned 'forest spirits' or not) is exactly the same thing as Koroks. We shouldn't make assumptions about every spirit being the same sort of thing. It's a vague concept.

#192 Raien

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 02:39 PM

But 'spirits' generally means something that's already died. Not always, but generally.


Not necessarily. Spirits are also commonly associated with ethreal beings, that exist beyond the understanding of humans. If you read the script where Darunia awakens as the Sage of Fire, he tells you that the Fire Medallion is embodied with "fire spirits". They do not represent any real identity in OoT, just the power of the elements that we see in Hyrule. The Kokiri are human forms of these spirits and the Koroks are tree forms that the Kokiri had transformed into.

#193 Jumbie

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 04:41 PM

And now to wait for Jumbie's response... *twiddles thumbs*

Oh, okay then. Don't have much to add, but well..

Or perhaps: Ethreal Entities > Kokiri > Koroks, as it doesn't say what they were before they took on human form.

Well, there are Forest Spirits within the Forest Temple in Adult OoT (which is why Saria went to the Forest Temple before she was captured).
I presume that the Forest Spirits are exactly what they are, without real distinguishable form. Then the Deku Tree transforms some of them into Kokiri and then when the Great Sea came, they were transformed into Koroks so that they might take the seeds to other islands and plant forests.

Yes, I could fully agree with all of that. Either the Kokiri were those temple spirits before, or they were the Koroks before. I tend towards Koroks, but either would make sense.

When it says that they "took on human forms", it could still mean that they were born in those human forms. Long ago, all the Koroks were Kokiri; now they're Koroks. That's all this means.

Then the wording would be very misleading.

Edited by Jumbie, 09 November 2006 - 04:41 PM.


#194 Raien

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 05:54 PM

It's not that misleading. A long time ago, the forest spirits took on human forms. When they moved to the Great Sea, they took the forms of the Koroks.

#195 Fyxe

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 06:14 PM

Not necessarily.


But 'spirits' generally means something that's already died. Not always, but generally.

Honestly now. My point still stands.

#196 Raien

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 06:30 PM

Honestly now. My point still stands.


Your point stands but that doesn't mean it's evidence. It only becomes evidence at least when all the alternatives have been disproven, which they haven't.

#197 Jumbie

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 08:55 PM

So, we know that there are forest spirits worshipped in the Forest Temple. And we also know that the Koroks are forest spirits (if not from a quote, then from the whole concept behind them). But, when Saria goes to the temple of the forest spirits, would it make sense that she herself was one of those spirits? Sure, the Kokiri could be materialized forms of those spirits.. but all in all I don't find it that atmospheric to equate the temple's spirits with the Kokiri. It just feels weird.
Therefore I like more the thought that the Kokiri started off as Koroks and much later went back to being Koroks. So they were child-like beings only for the time that Link dwelled among them. It would make very much sense for the Deku Tree to make them look like Link so that the young Hylian doesn't realize he's an outsider.

Edited by Jumbie, 09 November 2006 - 08:56 PM.


#198 Fyxe

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:01 PM

Your point stands but that doesn't mean it's evidence. It only becomes evidence at least when all the alternatives have been disproven, which they haven't.

What? Do you even know what I'm talking about? It's like we're speaking a different language.

#199 LionHarted

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:16 PM

Forest Spirits in the Forest Temple = Forest Faeries?
Forest Spirits in Physical Form = Kokiri / Korok?

That would make sense, too.

#200 Jumbie

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:29 PM

Forest Spirits in the Forest Temple = Forest Faeries?
Forest Spirits in Physical Form = Kokiri / Korok?

That would make sense, too.

Yea, why not. In the end all creatures of the forest (Deku Scrubs, Deku Babas, Kokiri, Skull Kids) might be relatives, since they might all stem from the father of all living, the Great Deku Tree. He represents the power of Farore who created life in Hyrule. ..I'm not completely serious now, but I think I may have a little point.

#201 Showsni

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:32 PM

So, we know that there are forest spirits worshipped in the Forest Temple. And we also know that the Koroks are forest spirits (if not from a quote, then from the whole concept behind them). But, when Saria goes to the temple of the forest spirits, would it make sense that she herself was one of those spirits? Sure, the Kokiri could be materialized forms of those spirits.. but all in all I don't find it that atmospheric to equate the temple's spirits with the Kokiri. It just feels weird.
Therefore I like more the thought that the Kokiri started off as Koroks and much later went back to being Koroks. So they were child-like beings only for the time that Link dwelled among them. It would make very much sense for the Deku Tree to make them look like Link so that the young Hylian doesn't realize he's an outsider.


No, because they're in Hyrule's (and Termina's) mythology as child like fairies - Malon recognises Link to be a forest fairy, and Tingle wants to be one (ever since he was little). Weren't they only Koroks after the flood?

#202 Jumbie

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:42 PM

Malon recognises Link to be a forest fairy

No, she doesn't. She merely sees that Link is *accompanied* by a fairy, and apparently the place where most fairies gather is the forest. Also we can't tell what Link would tell Malon about himself, as we don't see him speak.

and Tingle wants to be one (ever since he was little).

But where does he ever draw a connection to Kokiri? Kokiri simply aren't 'forest fairies', rather they are accompanied by forest fairies. Tingle wears a strange green outfit that, judging by Tingle RPG, seems to have a connection with the wish to become a fairy, but it doesn't really look like a Kokiri outfit. So Tingle mistakes Link for wearing the same costume as he himself, and somehow jumps to the odd conclusion that if a tiny fairy flutters around Link's head, Link himself must also be a forest fairy.

Weren't they only Koroks after the flood?

Well that's the question we're debating, on which there is not definite answer. I simply have the feeling that the Koroks were intended to be the true form of the Kokiri, and not just an evolved form of them.

#203 Showsni

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:49 PM

But where does he ever draw a connection to Kokiri? Kokiri simply aren't 'forest fairies', rather they are accompanied by forest fairies. Tingle wears a strange green outfit that, judging by Tingle RPG, seems to have a connection with the wish to become a fairy, but it doesn't really look like a Kokiri outfit. So Tingle mistakes Link for wearing the same costume as he himself, and somehow jumps to the odd conclusion that if a tiny fairy flutters around Link's head, Link himself must also be a forest fairy.


No, those are just fairies. Forest fairy means the Kokiri/Koroks.

#204 LionHarted

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 10:28 PM

Forest fairy means the Kokiri/Koroks.

I thought that the forest fairies were the guardian fairies of the Kokiri, and that they were called "fairy folk" because of the fairies that followed them. But I could be wrong. What do you all think?

Edited by LionHarted, 09 November 2006 - 10:30 PM.


#205 coinilius

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 10:41 PM

I thought that the forest fairies were the guardian fairies of the Kokiri, and that they were called "fairy folk" because of the fairies that followed them. But I could be wrong. What do you all think?


In Majora's Mask, Tingle refers to Link as a 'forest fairy'... the term 'fairy folk' isn't used in OoT, but Malon refers to Link as a 'fairy boy from the forest.' The term 'forest fairy' is not used in OoT, but in MM it is applied to Link (Tingle decides Link must be a forest fairy because of his green clothes and white fairy, and thinks that he must be a forest fairy as well, the same as Link).

#206 LionHarted

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 10:48 PM

In Majora's Mask, Tingle refers to Link as a 'forest fairy'... the term 'fairy folk' isn't used in OoT, but Malon refers to Link as a 'fairy boy from the forest.'

"Fairy folk shall not leave these woods."

Ring any bells?

The term 'forest fairy' is not used in OoT, but in MM it is applied to Link (Tingle decides Link must be a forest fairy because of his green clothes and white fairy, and thinks that he must be a forest fairy as well, the same as Link).

I thought Tingle was referring to Tatl, but... okay.

#207 Jumbie

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:54 PM

No, those are just fairies. Forest fairy means the Kokiri/Koroks.

Wrong.

I thought that the forest fairies were the guardian fairies of the Kokiri, and that they were called "fairy folk" because of the fairies that followed them. But I could be wrong. What do you all think?

Right.

#208 Showsni

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:07 PM

What's this?
Green clothes...White fairy...
Sir, could you, by chance, be a
forest fairy?

Tingle is clearly talking to Link (use of "Sir," describing Link's appearance and companion). He recognises Link as a Forest Fairy - aka a Kokiri.

I think I am the same as you, sir.
A forest fairy!

Alas, though I am already age 35,
no fairy has come to me yet...

He thinks he is a Kokiri/Forest Fairy. He dresses in green, like the Kokiri. He is waiting for a companion fairy, like the Kokiri. He doesn't think he's a small ball of light with wings/miniature woman with wings and a wand.

The Kokiri are Forest Fairies. Look at the items - Fairy Slingshot, Fairy Bow, Fairy Ocarina - all linked to the Kokiri, used by the Kokiri.

They say that when non-fairy
folk enter the Lost Woods, they
become monsters!

The Kokiri don't change, so they are fairy folk.

Hey, your clothes! They're...
different...
You're not from around here,
are you?

.........
........
Ohh... You're a fairy boy from
the forest!

Again, the green clothes are the give away that Link's a fairy child (although we know he isn't really).

Aren't you the fairy buddy I
met a long time ago?

Again, Link is a fairy.

#209 Jumbie

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 08:43 PM

Tingle is clearly talking to Link (use of "Sir," describing Link's appearance and companion). He recognises Link as a Forest Fairy - aka a Kokiri.

I've never even considered that Tingle could be mistaking Link for a Kokiri. I mean, how would a Terminan know of Kokiri, who are exclusive to Hyrule? I think Tingle mistakes Link for exactly what he calls him: a forest fairy, an undeterminable term that was bred in his own weird mind. After all, later games have confirmed that Tingle wishes to become a fairy - one like those that can be bottled, we should presume.

He is waiting for a companion fairy, like the Kokiri. He doesn't think he's a small ball of light with wings/miniature woman with wings and a wand.

Says who? We don't know why he's waiting for a fairy to come to him, whether he wants her to accompany him or merely to introduce him to the realm of fairies, as it is depicted when TWW Link meets Tingle.

The Kokiri are Forest Fairies. Look at the items - Fairy Slingshot, Fairy Bow, Fairy Ocarina - all linked to the Kokiri, used by the Kokiri.

I doubt that Kokiri use weapons. The slingshot could be a gift of the Deku Tree, who in a way seems to be responsible for the guardian fairies. The Fairy Bow was in the Forest Temple, where fairies *might* have lived before it was invaded by evil. As for the Fairy Ocarina.. So should Princess Zelda, who uses the Ocarina of Time, be a member of the mysterious "Time" tribe? :P

"They say that when non-fairy folk enter the Lost Woods, they become monsters!"
"Ohh... You're a fairy boy from the forest!"
"Aren't you the fairy buddy I met a long time ago?"

Think about Anju for a second: she's called the chicken girl, but does that make her a chicken herself?! Or, is a dog biscuit made of dog?!
The logic behind those nicknames is that the respective persons are *surrounded* by fairies or chickens, not that they themselves *are* them.

Edited by Jumbie, 10 November 2006 - 08:47 PM.


#210 Raien

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 08:57 PM

1) I think the Kokiri Sword exists because it was made for the Kokiri to protect themselves in an emergency. I don't think the Fairy Slingshot has such relevance though.

2) Tingle is mad and much of what he says does not make sense in respect to reality. Tingle thinks that he is dressed as a fairy and that Link is dressed as a fairy. Tingle obviously has no idea what a fairy looks like or how they exist. I really don't think anyone should take Tingle seriously.




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