181 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

MikePetersSucks, on Jan 11 2006, 11:59 PM, said:

Same goes for Hyrule.

No, actually, virtually all the Stalfos on the game either exist in the Dark World or transport themselves there.

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Dur. It's the throne of the Golden Power. Of course no one's gonna live there.

Really? Ganon's Dark World in ALttP was more heavily populated than the Dark World in FSA.

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Which, incidently, is not ACTUALLY part of the Sacred Realm/Dark World. Hmm.

Not quite true. It's called the Dark World for a reason. They wouldn't call the region the Dark World if it didn't have some connection. The implication is that the Dark World is consuming the Light World. And if you want proof of that, check out the pits in the Temple of Darkness, at the bottom of which lies swirling dark masses that take you directly to the Dark World. The boarders between the Light and Dark Worlds have been broken in that place, and the reason that region of land is becoming so enshrouded with darkness is *because* of the Dark World's influence there.

That's enough proof for me that the Dark World is pretty damn dark, even if it's maybe not as dark as it once was.

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Which is a direct counterpart to the ruined first floor of the Tower of Winds. What's dark about it? The blackness? I call graphical limitations.

Are you serious? It looks nothing like the first floor, it's a small black void of darkness. Obviously it's a counterpart, every area of the Dark World is a counterpart to the Light World, but it has nothing to make it similar. It's the Dark World in it's purest.

I should also note how wavy and totally weird the Dark World looks all the time. It's like it's constantly difficult to see properly there, as if it's surrounded by some dark mist (obviously not actual mist, think of something more like the 'waves of darkness' during the battle with Ganondorf in OoT).

I have a feeling that if you could look up, you wouldn't exactly see beautiful shining skies of blue or gold.

[Crazy Penguin]

Fyxe, on Jan 12 2006, 12:57 AM, said:

Not quite true. It's called the Dark World for a reason. They wouldn't call the region the Dark World if it didn't have some connection. The implication is that the Dark World is consuming the Light World. And if you want proof of that, check out the pits in the Temple of Darkness, at the bottom of which lies swirling dark masses that take you directly to the Dark World. The boarders between the Light and Dark Worlds have been broken in that place, and the reason that region of land is becoming so enshrouded with darkness is *because* of the Dark World's influence there.

http://forums.legend...?showtopic=4523

Zethar-II: Level five in FSA is "ankoku no sekai" Which is like world of darkness still, but in a slightly different sense.

[coinilius]

That thread also has a translation of a list of games that 'seem to be recognised by NCL', which includes KnS...

[Fyxe]

Crazy Penguin, thanks for that, although that still doesn't go against my point, exactly.

Ah, the list... That's been found in other places too, I believe.

Of course it includes KnS, KnS is an official Nintendo game and a part of the series. I doubt many Japanese Zelda fans would say it wasn't canon. There's no reason for them to believe it not to be.

I find it silly how we take the Japanese translations as canon yet some of us ignore Japan-only games for arbitrary reasons.

[Hero of Legend]

Fatgoron said

Were it a result of Ganon's death, it would be because he no longer exists in the SR, or because he no longer commands the Triforce. In the first instance it would depend upon Ganon's being in the SR when returned to life. We can't really say much about that as we don't have enough information to judge what kind of change to expect. Wether it would be gradual or instantaneous, or prevented by someone else's already being in the SR.

Ganon only needs to enter the SR for it to turn into the DW. We can assume he did that in FSA. Hell, it doesn't even have to be Ganon, just a person with an evil heart. For all we know, Vaati could have created the DW in FSA. And about the Triforce: Well, maybe the effect of Ganon's wish returned when he was reborn.

Tri-Enforcer said

I don't think the land changes automatically, without the Triforce.

OoT disagrees with you.

Sheik said

The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart... the heart of one who enters it... If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise.

There is no mention of the Triforce here.

[coinilius]

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Of course it includes KnS, KnS is an official Nintendo game and a part of the series. I doubt many Japanese Zelda fans would say it wasn't canon. There's no reason for them to believe it not to be.

I was just pointing it's presence out, not suggesting anything about it's canonicity

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OoT disagrees with you.

And OoT disagrees with ALtP... the line in Oot raises a lot of questions - what happens if more than one person enters the Sacred Realm? Who does it model itself on?

[MikePetersSucks]

It probably models itself upon the very first person who enters it. Either that or the person with the stronger heart.

[coinilius]

It couldn't just be the very first person though, since Rauru had entered it before Ganondorf (and was still inside), but it was modelling itself on Ganondorf in OoT. Stronger heart or will could work in that situation, though.

[Showsni]

Or it could be an average of all the people in it...

[coinilius]

Ganondorf wasn't in the Sacred Realm permanently in OoT - by the end of the game, Six of the Sages are residing in the Sacred Realm, with Link constantlly popping in and out. The average of all the people in there at that point would probably have been cancelling out the evil Ganondorf introduced at that point in the game.

[Tri-Enforcer]

coinilius, on Jan 17 2006, 01:33 PM, said:

Ganondorf wasn't in the Sacred Realm permanently in OoT - by the end of the game, Six of the Sages are residing in the Sacred Realm, with Link constantlly popping in and out. The average of all the people in there at that point would probably have been cancelling out the evil Ganondorf introduced at that point in the game.

Yeah but Zelda/Sheik indicated to Link that Ganon turned the Sacred Realm into a world of darkness. Also, Rauru referred to as the "Void of the Evil Realm" at the end off OOT. So in OOT, that realm became evil when Ganon touched the Triforce, even though it split on him. I guess the ToP was enough to make it that way. So in essence you can't say that since Rauru or a select few good people were there first, to be sufficient enough reason why the realm wouldn't turn into an evil image. Also, we don't know if Ganon had invaded the Sacred Realm with an army of goons that waaay out numbered the good hearted people there. I thinks it just a matter of what force has the most influence, if there's more evil in that realm, then it's evil...if there's more good then it's 'golden' or 'sacred'.

[MikePetersSucks]

With the risk of fanfiction, it could even be how the Triforce is used. Normally, the person controls the whole Triforce, and although it doesn't distingiush between good or evil, using it either way effects the Sacred Realm's development. When the Triforce splits, it's a mean of the three pieces and how they're used. Link's piece was dormant the whole time, so he's a zero in the equation. Zelda pretty much hid the whole time, and it's debateable if her Shiek disguise was Triforce magic or not. No doubt, conquering the kingdom(s) with the Triforce of Power would be dominant in such a formula.

[coinilius]

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Yeah but Zelda/Sheik indicated to Link that Ganon turned the Sacred Realm into a world of darkness. Also, Rauru referred to as the "Void of the Evil Realm" at the end off OOT. So in OOT, that realm became evil when Ganon touched the Triforce, even though it split on him.

I wasn't suggesting that OoT didn't say that - what I was pointing out that the line in OoT about the Sacred Realm changing to reflect the heart of the people who enter it raises questions that aren't answered in OoT. I was just pointing some of those questions out, not trying to say anything concrete about how it does or doesn't work.

[Fyxe]

I don't think that line was meant to mean that the Sacred Realm would change *instantly*, rather that it would have to be 'molded' by the person who enters it. If you don't take the line too literally then it's not so inconsistent. After all, it's not like it's explained WHY it changes, just that it does. The 'why' could be because of the influence of the person, so it's never intended to mean it was an instant thing or not.

[Doopliss]

Hero of Legend, on Jan 9 2006, 01:59 PM, said:

That's not a fact. Besides, Ganon can still enter it more than once.

At least it's more valid because we're never told that Ganon's presence alters the Sacred Realm.

I agree with Fyxe because OoT was very ambiguous about what changes the Sacred Realm, while ALttP was clearer. Probably the one who wishes on the Triforce is the one who instantly changed the Sacred Realm, but people who enter after that can change it with their actions. Remember that the tree in the Dark World says that Ganon's wish changed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World.

Edited by Doopliss, 21 January 2006 - 01:01 AM.

[Chaltab]

Okay, my two cents on this subject.

I think The Minish Cap happens long before any of the other games in the series. There seems to be no knowledge of the Ganon, and there is no thought given to the Triforce because no door to the Sacred Realm has been opened yet. The Light Force is the power of the royal family. I believe this because it is said to run in the royal family's blood, but the Triforce has never been shown to be something genetic--it's something that chooses you.

After the demon Vatii is sealed in the Four Sword, MANY years pass. Somehow the legend is either forgotten or simply not important in the minds of those from the Ocarina of Time era. The Triforce's increasing popularity has superceded it or something, especially in the years after OOT.

Later, a Zelda is sent to check the seal and it breaks, releasing Vaati. Link fights him, seals him back. (This is Four Sword GBA)... Then only a FEW years, one or two pass. Four Sword Adventure doesn't give much concrete evidence onto how long it's been, but if it had been terribly long, why would Zelda need to go check the seal? Shadow Link appears, Link is Forced to release Vaati again... but it turns out he is only a pawn of Ganon.

This has to happen after Ocarina of Time because Ganon is reffered to as an ANCIENT demon by Zelda. If it was the first time he had ever appeared, he wouldn't be very ancient. This Ganondorf that transforms into Ganon with the Trident is apparently a reincarnation of of the one from Ocarina, but it isn't entirely clear if he had all his memories from the beginning, if he got them when he got the Trident, or if he doesn't really have them at all, just the spirit of the original.

[Hero of Slime]

The "Triumph Forks" is just a misinterpration of the Triforce. Since the Triforce was around before OoT it is very much possible that the book was writen before OoT too. Thus your evidence does not really prove that TMC is after OoT.

I really don't see how the text can be used as evidence either. Just because the text in TMC is the same style as the text in TWW does not mean that TMC can not be the first in the timeline.

The fact that Nayru is decended from a long line of oracles is also completely irrelevant.

[Hero of Legend]

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How about the two library books on "Triumph Forks" in The Minish Cap?

Hm? *Reads*

Whoa! This is interesting. Not only do those books feature the Triumph Forks, they also talk about an "Ancient Civilization" (Old Hyrule, anyone?) and the "Mysterious Seed" (Oracles). Hm... It looks like this is just an Easter Egg from Capcom, but if it is canon, it proves that TMC takes place sometime after TWW AND the Oracles.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 February 2006 - 01:10 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ok, I must be stupid. What are the Triumph Forks again?

[Showsni]

It's the Triforce. By the time of TWW, people have forgotten nearly all the old legends, and that of the triforce has been (agh what's the word I want... like vulgarised, debased, skewed...) well, whatever. Now they just now that something called the "Triumph Forks" is good.

[Hero of Slime]

Hero of Legend said

but if it is canon, it proves that TMC takes place sometime after TWW AND the Oracles.

It does not prove anthing, The ancient civiliztion can be anything and the Mysterious Seed does not have to refer to the events in the oracle games. Those books could even be fiction.

[Hero of Legend]

The Zol said

It does not prove anthing, The ancient civiliztion can be anything and the Mysterious Seed does not have to refer to the events in the oracle games. Those books could even be fiction.

We can't assume those books don't mean anything either. Therefore you have to explain them.

So, care to point this other ancient civilization they could be referring to? And it is obvious that they aretalking about the Oracles. As I said, the Japanese name for the Oracles are "Mysterious Seed of Power/Wisdom". Of course, this only matters if this information is canon. But I don't see any reason for it not to be.

MPS said

Ok, I must be stupid. What are the Triumph Forks again?

Showsni said

It's the Triforce. By the time of TWW, people have forgotten nearly all the old legends, and that of the triforce has been (agh what's the word I want... like vulgarised, debased, skewed...) well, whatever. Now they just now that something called the "Triumph Forks" is good.

To be more specific: The Triumph Forks are the pieces of the Triforce of Courage. The whole Triforce is never referred to as the Triumph Forks, which further disproves what Zol said about how TMC can be before OoT.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 February 2006 - 06:39 AM.

[mohammedali]

Hero of Legend, on Feb 18 2006, 08:45 AM, said:

We can't assume those books don't mean anything either. Therefore you have to explain them.

He did. He said they could be works of fiction for all we know, which is true. All we're going on is a couple of book titles. Even if you don't want to consider it an easter egg, it would still fail to prove anything conclusive.

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To be more specific: The Triumph Forks are the pieces of the Triforce of Courage. The whole Triforce is never referred to as the Triumph Forks, which further disproves what Zol said about how TMC can be before OoT.

Although the Trimph Fork is always mentioned when talking about a piece of the Triforce, it is obvious that it is the effect of 'Chinnese Wispers' on the word 'Triforce'. Otherwise, the joke just woudn't make any sence. Trimph Fork sounds a lot like Triforce, but not so much like Shard of the Triforce of Courage. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It was a little joke that Nintendo put into WW.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Legend]

...Why are YOU back?

MohammedAli said

He did. He said they could be works of fiction for all we know, which is true. All we're going on is a couple of book titles. Even if you don't want to consider it an easter egg, it would still fail to prove anything conclusive.

But then, we know this is a game. And as I always say: Nothing in a game exists without having a purpose intended by the developers (Nintendo/Capcom). This is a simple fact. Thus, assuming that these books are some irrelevant literature when their names DO refer to other games is rather... ignorant.

It's somewhat like saying that the IW is just a made-up story with no affect on the timeline.

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Although the Trimph Fork is always mentioned when talking about a piece of the Triforce, it is obvious that it is the effect of 'Chinnese Wispers' on the word 'Triforce'. Otherwise, the joke just woudn't make any sence. Trimph Fork sounds a lot like Triforce, but not so much like Shard of the Triforce of Courage. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It was a little joke that Nintendo put into WW.

That does not change the fact that only the ToC pieces are known as the Triumph Forks. The Triforce itself is said to be a "legendary treasure". They are completely separate in the peoples' minds.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 February 2006 - 01:56 PM.

[mohammedali]

Hero of Legend, on Feb 18 2006, 06:34 PM, said:

...Why are YOU back?

Just to annoy you. That's what you wanted to hear, right

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But then, we know this is a game. And as I always say: Nothing in a game exists without having a purpose intended by the developers (Nintendo/Capcom). This is a simple fact. Thus, assuming that these books are some irrelevant literature when their names DO refer to other games is rather... ignorant.

I agree that it's an interesting find. However, I don't really see it as anything more than a simple Easter Egg that refers to WW.

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That does not change the fact that only the ToC pieces are known as the Triumph Forks. The Triforce itself is said to be a "legendary treasure". They are completely separate in the peoples' minds.

The entire point was that they didn't realise what the Triumph Forks were so to say that people thought they were the shards of ToC is incorrect. They thought the TFs were actual uttensils with special abilities or something. They weren't supposed to be another word for the shards, because they never knew what the 'forks' looked like (as they don't exist), or that the shards actually existed (otherwise they wouldn't have confused them for forks). Hence the only possible link is the glaringly obvious one - that Triumph Forks sounds like Triforce. It's obvious that this was the point of the name, but it really doesn't matter as it's not actually an object.

Mohammed Ali

Edited by mohammedali, 18 February 2006 - 09:09 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

How can you say that the Books are a certainly a direct reference to oracle games being before Minish Cap, while ignoring Syrup's figurine quote which implies that TMC is Before oracles. Both pieces are equally canon. By saying that all impied evidence is used by the game creators in determining the timeline, than you are saying that the game creators are implying that TMC is both before and after the oracles.

What I think this means is that TMC can either be before or after Oracles.

[Hero of Legend]

Mohammedali said

The entire point was that they didn't realise what the Triumph Forks were so to say that people thought they were the shards of ToC is incorrect. They thought the TFs were actual uttensils with special abilities or something. They weren't supposed to be another word for the shards, because they never knew what the 'forks' looked like (as they don't exist), or that the shards actually existed (otherwise they wouldn't have confused them for forks). Hence the only possible link is the glaringly obvious one - that Triumph Forks sounds like Triforce. It's obvious that this was the point of the name, but it really doesn't matter as it's not actually an object.

But they could not have mistaken the ToC for the "Triumph Forks" until after it was lost. That was my point.

The Zol said

How can you say that the Books are a certainly a direct reference to oracle games being before Minish Cap, while ignoring Syrup's figurine quote which implies that TMC is Before oracles. Both pieces are equally canon. By saying that all impied evidence is used by the game creators in determining the timeline, than you are saying that the game creators are implying that TMC is both before and after the oracles.

You are right about that... There goes my theory. Well, I agree that TMC could come anywhere in the timeline. I just hope Nintendo hurries up and makes another FS game that explains everything soon.

[Hero of Slime]

But the fact that Nayru is descended from oracles does not mean that she is descended form the Oracles in the Oracle games.