181 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

Hehehe... You know, all those games that borrow stuff from one another ARE connected. TWW is connected to OoT, as is ALttP. FSA seems to be connected to ALttP, and look, it features Maidens! Coincidence? I think not.

Excuse me, but on a very simple level, how does the fact that it features maidens mean it's connected? What, a game can't feature seven maidens without instantly having a connection to ALttP? That's rediculous. You know EXACTLY what I meant. All the games are connected, by your arguement. So what? That's exactly my point. Just because a lot of Zelda games share similar elements doesn't mean they're instantly related. Oh, look at all the games that feature Tingle!! That must mean they're connected. Look at all the reused characters in the Oracle games!! They must be connected. Link's sister in TWW was based on Marin!! They must be connected.

Of course not.

Zelda games borrow elements. A lot.

No, the storyline makes it apparent that the games are connected.

Really. I think not, otherwise we would not have this argument. Slightly arrogant attitude, there.

About the Maidens: They are Sages in ever aspect other than being, well, maidens. You must remember that it is stated in ALttP that they are the descendants of the old Sages, and they do have magic powers. Thus they ARE Sages. That is what ALttP says.

They ALSO said their powers are much faded over time. They are not wise sages, they are merely girls who know a bit of history and share some power that belonged to their ancestors. That's why they're just called maidens.

Nothing happened it seems. The forces of Hyrule obviously surrendered after that first battle.

You don't know that. We don't know how much 'a short time' actually counts as. It could of been months, which is still time for a 'war'. Also, there may of been fighting after the surrender, when Ganon attacked the town.

It doesn't mean they exist either. If Nintendo wanted them there they could have put them in the game. And… WTF? We see the Knights of Hyrule in the intro of ALttP. Who do you think those soldiers fighting the monsters are?

What, so now ANY soldier is a Knight of Hyrule? In that case, there are Knights of Hyrule in OoT. The castle soldiers.

And remember that Nintendo thinks up the game first, story second. OoT also suffered numerous delays. Just because the Knights of Hyrule do not make an appearance does not mean that they don't exist. We don't ever see the king, but he's THERE, right?

The seal is broken in TWW.

No no no no no no no no. Ganon himself says that the seal is only broken once Link removes the Master Sword. Yet he is beyond the seal before that moment. And nowhere ever says that the old seal of the sages was actually physically broken. We know the only way Ganon can break the seal of the sages is to use the power of their decendants, and this is never mentioned in the TWW backstory.

And again, there's Agahnim, who you conveniently ignored.

Besides, Ganondorf lost the ToP and got turned into stone. He can't just go back into the DW for ALttP to happen. The fact is that neither OoT nor TWW works as ALttP's (real) BS.

TWW being involved in ALttP's backstory is a whole different matter entirely. Personally I think OoT is the backstory for both TWW and ALttP, but TWW does not occur before ALttP, and ALttP does not occur before TWW. Make of that what you will. It's a variation on a split timeline, except without the split. Gaiden timeline, until more games arise and it possibly becomes clearer.

Not that I know off.

The Master Sword was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm. Of course they were searching for it. They might not have KNOWN they were searching for it...

Didn't YOU pay attention to what she SAID?

*Zelda* - The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.

And we latter see the Sages OPEN the portal, but we never see it get sealed. But we know who did it... Unless you are saying that she is a liar. Also, it doesn't matter that she is a Sage, she's still not SEVEN Sages.

The seven sages WORKED TOGETHER TO SEAL GANON IN THE SACRED REALM, for great bahooeys sake. It doesn't matter which one of them did the opening, the throwing of Ganon in or the sealing, they all did it together. Honestly. Saying only Zelda sealed Ganon is just wrong, however you swing it.

And there's certainly a hell of a lot more 'seven sages sealing Ganon in the Dark World' than what goes on in FSA. FSA gets it all wrong.

Any Knights of Hyrule is better than no Knights at all. Simple as that.

No, it's a reuse of a character concept. Tingle appears in Minish Cap!! It must be directly connected to Majora's Mask!! I think not.

Wasn't that what he did in the IW as well? Because he was not sealed in the DW until AFTER the war.

No. Don't you remember all that stuff about the Golden Land becoming the Dark World, and Ganon's evil swarming from the gateway?

It reminds me of the IW as well as OoT. Anyway, my point is that FSA share similarities with the IW that only OoT had before. And those games are connected.

And my point is that just because they have similarities does not mean they are connected.

True enough. Though I wonder why they included the Maidens at all if it didn't hold any significance.

Why include anything? Why include Malon and Talon? Why include Gorons and not Ocean Zoras? Does every reference to other games in the series have to be so significant, or can it not merely be just a reference or a reuse of ideas?

[Tri-Enforcer]

*Impa* - On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time. Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time! My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach. When last I saw you, as we made our escape from the castle, you were just a lad...

(Hero of Legend) Nothing happened it seems. The forces of Hyrule obviously surrendered after that first battle.

I agree with this. According to the IW story, Ganon's forces attacked the castle awhile after he touched the Triforce. In OOT, Ganon attacked the castle moments before he even entered the Sacred Realm. Also, in OOT, by the time the final battle came seven years later...the castle had already fallen and the battle was fought at Ganon's tower.

Ganon acquired the Triforce, but no one knows what Ganon wished for.

However, Ganon's noxious gas advanced even to the land of Hyrule.

Greedy persons vanished into this powerful gathering smoke.

Dark clouds always covered the sky, and unlucky incidents; one after another, also attacked Hyrule.

The king of Hyrule sent for the seven sages living in Hyrule, and the Group of Knights, and ordered them to seal the source of evil.

The Triforce itself cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that....

The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.

However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace.

Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one.

The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted, this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal.

From the looks of this...between the time Ganon first touched the Triforce and the subsequent battle on Hyrule Castle, more than a day had passed. It didn't all happen in just one day, you can tell from all that is going on between the breach and the attack on Hyrule Castle. Once Ganon built up his power, he attacked the castle and unlike OOT, the castle did not fall. In the IW, Ganon brought the final battle to Hyrule Castle, where as in OOT--the heroes brought the final battle to Ganon's Tower hence:

However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace.

Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one.

Also, in OOT by the time the 7 years had passed and the final battle occured, Hyrule Castle had already fallen and been destroyed 7 years prior as Impa explained.

Say what you want to say about legends or obscurity over time, but it is just ridiculous to use that cop out for every issue surrounding the OOT and the IW connectivity. Think of all the issues with this connectivity--they are not small issues in themselves and they are certainly not small in the number of issues there is.

As I said before the legend about the Hero of Time in TWW was pretty accurate about the events of OOT, despite all that had befallen Hyrule since that time. I don't see why legend isn't like this in the aLttP BS if it's referring to OOT. Why place so much emphasis on the Hero of Time in one story, but place emphasis on the sages and the knights in the other legend as oppossed to a lone hero. Also, why would people in aLttP say that since the knights were wiped out no one thought a hero would emerge again, when Link is the hero and was still standing at the end of that battle in OOT? Some characters in aLttP ask if Link is the 'legendary hero', but if this hero is so legendary...why isn't he included in tales of the IW or credited with fighting Ganon one- on-one and allowing for the sages to seal Ganon. All of this doesn't even scratch the surface in the list of problems facing the IW and OOT connection.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 22 December 2005 - 07:34 PM.

[Doopliss]

I just want to calrify something. The statement that the sages were looking for someone to weild the Master Sword is false. It's a NoA mistranslation. Anyway, I believe Tri-Enforcer has demonstrated that clearly the IW isn't OoT, never mind the mistranslation.

I'll try to participate in here. It's just that I'm increibly tired, so I'll just use material from this page and the following ones.

[mohammedali]

Sorry for the late reply. I have been very busy (lazy) these past days... And **** those quote tags.

*Mohammed Ali* - 1. is my opinion, and seems to be suggested by WW and the rest of the series. Ganon is the one consistant thing in the games. We've always had one Ganon, and there is no suggestion that the evil spirit reborn was Ganon. If anyone is making something up, it's you.

Ganon is not a consistent thing in the series. He isn't even in every game. And there is nothing proving that there has only been one Ganon either. Also, do you know what "reborn" means? Simply, if Ganon is the rebirth of an ancient demon, that demon WAS Ganon (before he died), because they are the same person. Deal with it.

What are you on about? LoZ Ganon is confirmed to be the same Ganon from aLttP from in game information. aLttP is confimed to be the same Ganon from OoT from the guy that made the character himself. WW Ganon is confirmed to be the same Ganon from OoT. All the major games we have seen have shown that Ganon is always the same even though the Links and Zeldas are not. To suddenly have 2 Ganons seems stupid given the fact that he is the one person who hasn't been 'replaced' by a successor in different games.
Also, do YOU know what reborn means? a demon being reborn doesn't mean that they have to have the same name. To suggest that it does is purely fanfic. Rebirth is about the soul, not the name.

2. is the only way that Zelda can be a first generation princess (which is a canon line) and this doesn't go against the information we have on AoL. It's the only way that I see AoL BS making sense, and there are lots of people of place Sleeping Zelda first.

Well, either way you are making stuff up without having any evidence to support this fan fiction of yours. Therefore your theory is less likely to be correct, as Nintendo might very well think differently. It is much more probable that it is a mere plot hole that Nintendo just don't care about.

My point was that Zelda being a first gen princess IS proof for AoL BS talking about 2 Kings, otherwise it's impossile for her to be the first gen. A simple case of deduction from evidence available. In any case, what ever the outcome, it's pointless talking about what Nintendo think given that they are unlikely to touch on AoL BS again.

3. is you putting words in my mouth. I said that other games could have come between OoT and WW as it says OoT is 'one of the legends'. I never said that OoT isn't connected to WW period, just that OoT was highlighted as it is a game many people are familiar with.

But that is still contradicting in-game facts as TWW shows us a stronger connection between two games than any other Zelda games (Besides FSA).

So which in-game facts does it contradict. Do tell.

Look. We see the origin of Ganondorf, a leader of the Gerudos in both games. We see characters who look and are named the same, such as Kaebora Gaebora (who has only been seen and named as such in OoT). We see the DW meaning it is after OoT and before aLttP.

All of that is true, but it does not prove anything other than that FSA is before ALttP. Returning characters mean nothing, and Ganon's double origin has an explanation.

I'm not claiming to prove anything. I'm suggesting a theory. Again, if I had proof of this theory, there wouldn't be much point of discussion now would there.

As for it being part of the IW, we see the Knights of Hyrule, we see maidens acting as sages, we see Ganon sealed in the FS which we later find out was placed in the PoFS in the DW essentially meaning he was sealed in DW. Hence, although I don't think it was the whole IW, I think it could be part of it.
There is obvious reason to conjecture a connection between OoT, FSA and IW. If you can't see there is a possible link then you're just being stubborn.

Oh, but I agree with you about the connection between OoT, FSA and the IW.

How's that then?

Revived and awoken from a slumber are 2 very different things. It's obvious you made up the revived line then as you haven't provided it.

Um... It is obvious that the Deku Scrubs were asleep for quite some time before Ganon awoke them, as nobody knows what they are. And, to my knowledge, when you awake someone from an "endless" slumber you revive that person...

The Deku shrubs being awoken by Ganon is not a big deal by any measure. It doesn't prove anything.

Again, Look. Regardless of weither Ganon was destined to be King, it is perfectly reasonable for him to have been their guardian and then their king. In fact he can be both at the same time but that's besides the point. Given there is a time between them, it's possible he became King later in OoT but not in FSA.

No! Because Ganondorf was BORN to be King. And he already was King during the child part of OoT, as Nabooru and the Gossip Stones prove. Don't change facts.

So could a King not also be known as a guardian?

As for the KoD title. FSA doesn't say he became the KoD - only you do. In FSA we see someone refer to Ganon as the KoD but doesn't say he became KoD. The only time we hear that Ganon became KoD is in aLttP BS and in OoT (which we are told are the same thing). Don't talk to me about making up facts when you're doing it yourself, hypocrit.

Do you have bad eyesight? I ask you because you obviously didn't see how I PROVED that Ganon became the KoD when he took the Trident. Besides, it is obvious what the text means. You're just bitching because you don't like it.

My eye-sight is fine, thanks for asking. Though, I don't recall you ever *proving* that Ganon became the KoD when he took the trident. Show me the 'proof' you have.

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

What are you on about? LoZ Ganon is confirmed to be the same Ganon from aLttP from in game information. aLttP is confimed to be the same Ganon from OoT from the guy that made the character himself. WW Ganon is confirmed to be the same Ganon from OoT. All the major games we have seen have shown that Ganon is always the same even though the Links and Zeldas are not. To suddenly have 2 Ganons seems stupid given the fact that he is the one person who hasn't been 'replaced' by a successor in different games.
Also, do YOU know what reborn means? a demon being reborn doesn't mean that they have to have the same name. To suggest that it does is purely fanfic. Rebirth is about the soul, not the name.

I'll repeat the argument I had been holding before my hiatus. Zelda doesn't mention Ganon through the game, but when she sees him, she says he's Ganon, and that he's an ancient demon reborn. If the demon wasn't named Ganon, why would she have called him Ganon? It clearly seems like Ganon is exactly the same person as the demon.

The Deku shrubs being awoken by Ganon is not a big deal by any measure. It doesn't prove anything.
So could a King not also be known as a guardian?

I do remember they were asleep. This proves something: That FSA doesn't come immediately after OoT. The Deku Scrubs were alive in OoT, but Ganon hadn't appeared, while in FSA they don't wake up until Ganon return, so they couldn't appear in OoT if it's realted as you sugges to FSA.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I just want to calrify something. The statement that the sages were looking for someone to weild the Master Sword is false. It's a NoA mistranslation. Anyway, I believe Tri-Enforcer has demonstrated that clearly the IW isn't OoT, never mind the mistranslation.

I'll try to participate in here. It's just that I'm increibly tired, so I'll just use material from this page and the following ones.

Thanks for the reply, however I must say enough with the American version bashing. That quote isn't even in the American version. I took that quote from the Japanese version.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 22 December 2005 - 08:10 PM.

[Doopliss]

Then I was confused again. So it's a fact that the sages looked for someone who use the Master Sword, then?

[Tri-Enforcer]

Then I was confused again. So it's a fact that the sages looked for someone who use the Master Sword, then?

Yep, that's what the line says.

[mohammedali]

I'll repeat the argument I had been holding before my hiatus. Zelda doesn't mention Ganon through the game, but when she sees him, she says he's Ganon, and that he's an ancient demon reborn. If the demon wasn't named Ganon, why would she have called him Ganon? It clearly seems like Ganon is exactly the same person as the demon.

As I said before, this is no different to how Ganondorf was refered to as Ganon in OoT without any given reasoning. Why does Zelda call Ganondorf Ganon in OoT? Was OoT Ganondorf also a demon reborn?

I do remember they were asleep. This proves something: That FSA doesn't come immediately after OoT. The Deku Scrubs were alive in OoT, but Ganon hadn't appeared, while in FSA they don't wake up until Ganon return, so they couldn't appear in OoT if it's realted as you sugges to FSA.

Quite what the Deku Scrubs meant by being awoken by Ganon in FSA is anyones guess. My take was that it awoke them to the idea of darkness, some see it as being physically awoken from sleep. It's not a major point and can be interpreted in different ways. It doesn't prove the theory either way.

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

Why couldn't Ganon be an evil monste reborn in both games? According to what you say, Ganondorf is the same in OoT and in FSA.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quite what the Deku Scrubs meant by being awoken by Ganon in FSA is anyones guess. My take was that it awoke them to the idea of darkness

Holy Crap. That's genius. */adopt*

[mohammedali]

Why couldn't Ganon be an evil monste reborn in both games? According to what you say, Ganondorf is the same in OoT and in FSA.

The point by HoL about the Demon reborn was that it was related to the trident. Ganon doesn't have the trident in OoT so that theory doesn't hold.
Either you accept that both OoT and FSA Ganon are the same 'demon reborn' and hence called Ganon, or you accept that in both OoT and FSA Ganondorf was called Ganon when in pig form for no specified reason. In either case, there is no reason to believe that they are different Ganons or that FSA Ganon is a rebirth of OoT Ganon. In both games Zelda calls Ganondorf Ganon for unknown reasons, and it makes little sense to use 1 as 'proof' and disregard the other.

Mohammed Ali

Edited by mohammedali, 24 December 2005 - 02:54 AM.

[Doopliss]

Oh, no, I'm not saying FSA Ganon is OoT Ganon reborn, but an ancient Ganon.

[Fyxe]

Well, look at it this way. Ganon is a nickname for Ganondorf. Therefore, Ganon is Ganondorf, correct? In OoT, there's no reason not to call him Ganon. We know that's his nickname.

But also, Ganon is the name for the demonic form of Ganondorf. And throughout the games, this has become a sort of seperate entity to Ganondorf. Obviously not seperate completely, but when Ganon is ressurected, he is ressurected as Ganon, rather than Ganondorf. In fact, in the Oracle games, he was entirely mindless, so in that respect Ganon in the Oracle games was completely seperate to Ganondorf.

Now, if Ganondorf becomes Ganon, he becomes a demon. If this entity becomes more prominant than the man behind the demon (as it does), then people will see Ganon merely as a demon, the King of Darkness. Which is what he becomes.

If we make the assumption that FSA occurs sometime after Ganon's death in ALttP, then the rebirth of Ganondorf, and him regaining his old power in the form of the trident also signals the rebirth of the ancient demon known as Ganon.

Zelda says the ancient demon IS the King of Darkness. Ganon is the King of Darkness, always has been in the Zelda series. Ganon is the ancient demon reborn. Until then, they had been after the man called Ganondorf. But when Zelda saw the form of Ganon, she put two and two together. Ganondorf had become the ancient demon known as Ganon, and she was the only one who understood what the name 'Ganon' meant.

Until then, only Dekus had used the name Ganon with any knowledge about who Ganon is.

What's that? No, Vaati's
old news. Ganon's the King
of Darkness! Forget Vaati!

King of Darkness, ancient
demon reborn. The wielder
of the trident!!

If the King of Darkness is an ancient demon, and Ganon is the King of Darkness, then the ancient demon and Ganon are clearly the same thing. To say otherwise would be to ignore the obviously intended connection.

And if the ancient demon/Ganon is the wielder of the trident, and the trident was used by Ganon in ALttP, then we can assume that FSA occurs after ALttP.

Also, I should point out that Ganon speaks with prior experience of Zelda as an annoyance in his existence.

Once I am finished here, I
shall be rid of your Princess
Zelda forever!

And considering Ganon in FSA has only just met her, then that line doesn't make a great deal of sense unless we recognise that the Ganon in FSA has dealt with Zelda in the past, in a previous incarnation.

Edited by Fyxe, 25 December 2005 - 09:09 PM.

[Doopliss]

Great! I agree completely.

[mohammedali]

Oh, no, I'm not saying FSA Ganon is OoT Ganon reborn, but an ancient Ganon.

So are FSA Ganon and OoT Ganon the same person or not?

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

They're not. They can't possibly be.

[Fyxe]

'Ganon' is the same 'Ganon' he's always been. Hence his desire to be rid of Zelda 'forever', and similar lines of dialogue that suggest prior engagement with Zelda (well, A Zelda) and the hero.

It must have been some time since Ganon existed, because only Zelda knows of the name (even the maidens don't really know who 'Ganon' is, despite clearly being both magical and knowledgeable), so she refers to him as the ancient demon, which is what Ganon was.

Ganondorf in FSA is a reborn version of Ganondorf from OoT/TWW, just like Link is seemingly a reincarnation, born at a time where he has no power over the Gerudos and is thought of by most people as just a criminal desert nomad (if he is even known at all). However, he reverts back to his form as a demon once he gets the trident, becoming Ganon once more.

That's my thoughts on FSA's Ganon.

[Hero of Legend]

Fyxe, you really are good at reformulating what I have been saying since the beginning. Also, why don't people argue with you? You've gotta tell me how you make them accept facts.

Jokes aside, I agree with what you said, though as always there are some minor things...

Until then, they had been after the man called Ganondorf. But when Zelda saw the form of Ganon, she put two and two together. Ganondorf had become the ancient demon known as Ganon, and she was the only one who understood what the name 'Ganon' meant.

Correct, but we do not know if Zelda did connect the appearance of Ganon with his name, because Ganon had already revealed it himself: "Zelda! I, Ganon, now seal you away forever!"

And if the ancient demon/Ganon is the wielder of the trident, and the trident was used by Ganon in ALttP, then we can assume that FSA occurs after ALttP.

It is also possible that FSA explains how Ganon got the Trident before ALttP, though it requires more speculation.

And considering Ganon in FSA has only just met her, then that line doesn't make a great deal of sense unless we recognise that the Ganon in FSA has dealt with Zelda in the past, in a previous incarnation.

Actually, it makes more sense than you might think. You see, FSA Zelda was very powerful and famous. Even Vaati mentions this in FS (They might not be the same Zelda, but whatever) It is likely that Ganon was commenting on her simply because she was threat to him. Also, remember that Ganon does not care much about her in the other games. Thus, Ganon does not necessarily remember Zelda in FSA. Now, I do have a reason to believe that he does not remember her. You see, Ganon's final words... "Gyaaaaaaa! What... What have you done? I am the King of Darkness! I cannot be destroyed by insects like you! Noooo!!!" Well, let's just say that he doesn't appear to have been defeated by Link and Zelda before... Or at least he does not remember it. And like you said, Ganon's rebirth is very similar to Link's, but does Link remember anything about his past life(s)?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 December 2005 - 09:03 AM.

[Doopliss]

So are FSA Ganon and OoT Ganon the same person or not?

Mohammed Ali

Yes, but Ganondorf is not the same. He's a reincarnation of OoT Ganondorf. Reincarnation is different from reborn.

Hero of Legend, about your last paragraph, I think Ganon could also have said that because he believed that time he had a better plan, but it could be as you say, anyway.

[Hero of Legend]

Yes, but Ganondorf is not the same. He's a reincarnation of OoT Ganondorf. Reincarnation is different from reborn.

Huh? I think you meant "revived", not "reborn". In order to be reincarnated you need to be reborn. Thus, in essence, reborn and reincarnated are the same thing (in this case). When you are revived however, you are resurrected to life by an outside force. That is different from being reborn or reincarnated.

Hero of Legend, about your last paragraph, I think Ganon could also have said that because he believed that time he had a better plan, but it could be as you say, anyway.

Yeah, and it's also very "standard" for the villain to go something like: "Oh no! That can't be happening! ARGHHHH!" when you defeat him. However, I brought this up only because Ganon acts so different in FSA compared to TWW. In that game he was fully aware that he could be defeated by Link, because he knew who Link was. That is not the case with FSA Ganon: "My blood boils, heroes! It seethes at the sight of you! Four Sword or no, my trident will reduce you to nothingness!" Now, obviously, Ganon thinks that he will win because of the Trident. But if Fyxe is right and this game is after ALttP, why the hell would he be more confident in FSA when he had both the Trident and the Triforce in ALttP?

[Hero of Slime]

In my theory the Ganondorf in FSA is an entirely new Ganondorf. He is only a reincarnation just like the Links. I really do not see how Ganon saying that he wants to get rid of zelda "forever" absolutely means that he has actually met her previous incarnation. Zelda was the princess of hyrule so he would know her name and Ganon seems to have said that he would get rid of zelda because she was trying to stop him. I think that its also possible for the Ganondorf of FSA to have knowledge of the previous Ganon, and know that he was stopped by princess zelda.

[Fyxe]

Fyxe, you really are good at reformulating what I have been saying since the beginning. Also, why don't people argue with you? You've gotta tell me how you make them accept facts.

How? Breasts.

No, seriously, I have no idea.. I thought people *did* argue with me plenty anyway...

Correct, but we do not know if Zelda did connect the appearance of Ganon with his name, because Ganon had already revealed it himself: "Zelda! I, Ganon, now seal you away forever!"

True, true. But she was the one who said he was an ancient demon reborn, suggesting that she's using prior knowledge to put two and two together.

It is also possible that FSA explains how Ganon got the Trident before ALttP, though it requires more speculation.

A fair amount, also there does seem to be some connection between the unnamed Pyramid in FSA and the Pyramid of Power in ALttP, which is where we last saw the trident (unless you count the weapon Phantom Ganon weilded in OoT). Also, the trident is not what's turned Ganondorf into a demon and the King of Darkness in previous games; it's always been the Triforce, so this implies that the trident has some of the Triforce's power, which makes sense if it was used (and presumably made) by Ganon in ALttP. This makes less sense if the trident came first, and requires a tad more fanfic.

Actually, it makes more sense than you might think. You see, FSA Zelda was very powerful and famous. Even Vaati mentions this in FS (They might not be the same Zelda, but whatever) It is likely that Ganon was commenting on her simply because she was threat to him.

It's the word 'forever' that really stands out, though.

Also, remember that Ganon does not care much about her in the other games. Thus, Ganon does not necessarily remember Zelda in FSA.

Ah, you forget OoT, where she's one of the people he curses as he is sealed in the Dark World.

Now, I do have a reason to believe that he does not remember her. You see, Ganon's final words... "Gyaaaaaaa! What... What have you done? I am the King of Darkness! I cannot be destroyed by insects like you! Noooo!!!" Well, let's just say that he doesn't appear to have been defeated by Link and Zelda before... Or at least he does not remember it.

To be fair, he always seems surprised, except maybe in TWW, but that's a different issue. I guess he assumed he would win because Link did not have the Master Sword, and that Link and Zelda both appear younger than they have been in previous outings. Little did he know the power of the Four Sword.
Also, his incredulity is simply because he has such massive confidence in himself, especially when he becomes a demon.

And like you said, Ganon's rebirth is very similar to Link's, but does Link remember anything about his past life(s)?

I don't think Ganondorf remembered anything until he became Ganon. But even when he becomes Ganon, I'm still not sure if he remembers *everything*. Ganon never seems to remember Link that well, although he always appears to recognise Zelda. I think this is partly because of the way the Zelda games always act like Link is a new person; you can name him whatever you want, for instance. He's the player. So new players might be confused if your character is recognised.

Edited by Fyxe, 01 January 2006 - 07:38 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

It's the word 'forever' that really stands out, though.

It only means that Ganon wants to permanently get rid of Princess Zelda and nothing more. Zelda at the time was trying to seal him away. If Ganon did not say "forever" it would not have really changed the meaning of his threat.

[Fyxe]

Really? Seems more striking to me. Lets say someone you barely know, maybe you've heard of him, but never met him, comes up to you and gives you a big punch in the face.

Would you say 'I shall be rid of that guy forever!!' in a following angry rage? Not likely. The 'forever' doesn't make any real sense if you've only met him once.

[Fatgoron]

I think I can phrase that a little better.
The forever part only makes sense if Ganon is expecting her to cause trouble for him in the future, otherwise being rid of her even momentarily should be enough.
Logically, the only way Ganon could expect to be troubled by her in the future is if he's been around long enough to recognise the correlation between princess Zelda and his plans going tits up.

So, the forever line implies that he has had prior experiences that make him believe that Zelda will be a thorn in his side for so long as she exists.

[Hero of Legend]

No, seriously, I have no idea.. I thought people *did* argue with me plenty anyway...

Not in this topic. When I first said Ganon that was reincarnated, mohammedali started ranting: "I don't like that idea, so it must be wrong." and then other people said: "I agree with Mo.". That was not the case when you said it. Then it was: "I agree completely!" and nobody has questioned it after that.

True, true. But she was the one who said he was an ancient demon reborn, suggesting that she's using prior knowledge to put two and two together.

Yeah, you are right about that.

A fair amount, also there does seem to be some connection between the unnamed Pyramid in FSA and the Pyramid of Power in ALttP, which is where we last saw the trident (unless you count the weapon Phantom Ganon weilded in OoT). Also, the trident is not what's turned Ganondorf into a demon and the King of Darkness in previous games; it's always been the Triforce, so this implies that the trident has some of the Triforce's power, which makes sense if it was used (and presumably made) by Ganon in ALttP. This makes less sense if the trident came first, and requires a tad more fanfic.

I know. But it's still possible. *Sigh* We will just have to wait untill some future game explains how FSA and ALttP really are connected (If they are. But I think we can assume as much). I would also be glad if a game showed us the actual creation of the Trident.

It's the word 'forever' that really stands out, though.

Hm... I see your point. But remember that Zelda had already been sealed in a crystal in FSA. That didn't work, did it? It is possible that Ganon just wanted to make sure that she stayed away forever this time.

Ah, you forget OoT, where she's one of the people he curses as he is sealed in the Dark World.

Yes, I forgot about that.

To be fair, he always seems surprised, except maybe in TWW, but that's a different issue.

He doesn't really say much in any game other than OoT, TWW and FSA. Also, I don't think he acted surprised in ALttP. In fact, he was fleeing from Link. Maybe he had learned his lesson? (Not that Nintendo had any plans for future games when they made ALttP).

I guess he assumed he would win because Link did not have the Master Sword, and that Link and Zelda both appear younger than they have been in previous outings. Little did he know the power of the Four Sword.
Also, his incredulity is simply because he has such massive confidence in himself, especially when he becomes a demon.

All of that is true, so I say you are right about this.

I don't think Ganondorf remembered anything until he became Ganon. But even when he becomes Ganon, I'm still not sure if he remembers *everything*. Ganon never seems to remember Link that well, although he always appears to recognise Zelda.

Well, he does mention that he hates Link, but I agree with you.

I think this is partly because of the way the Zelda games always act like Link is a new person; you can name him whatever you want, for instance. He's the player. So new players might be confused if your character is recognised.

It's been a while, boy.

I think we already have recognition. It is somewhat "hidden" (because they had already seen each other once) but anyone who has played OoT knows what Ganondorf is talking about.

[Fyxe]

I think I can phrase that a little better.
The forever part only makes sense if Ganon is expecting her to cause trouble for him in the future, otherwise being rid of her even momentarily should be enough.
Logically, the only way Ganon could expect to be troubled by her in the future is if he's been around long enough to recognise the correlation between princess Zelda and his plans going tits up.

So, the forever line implies that he has had prior experiences that make him believe that Zelda will be a thorn in his side for so long as she exists.

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant.

[Hero of Slime]

If Ganon did not say forever in his threat it would still mean that he would kill zelda, but the threat does seem to show more hatred when forever is included. It's possible that mention of the forever threat was just to intimidate zelda. Its also a possibility that ganon knew of zelda and what she had done to the previous ganon. However, to say that the word forever in ganon's threat is absolute evidence that he has the memories of the previous ganon is just a misinterpretation.

[Fyxe]

It's an interpretation, and an implied one, but not a MISinterpretation. You don't know that. It makes more sense and just generally seems more likely if it was evidence of Ganon's memory.

It's more of a stretch to take it any other way.