181 replies to this topic

[Hero of Slime]

Fyxe said

It's more of a stretch to take it any other way.

If we know Ganondorf is reborn like Link, how less of a stretch to say that Ganondorf magically gets the memories of the previous Ganon when it requires less fanfiction to say that he does not? The only evidence you have given is your interpretation of ganon's threat, which isn't very solid as I can interpret it differently so that it hints at my own fanfictional explaination.

[mohammedali]

Fyxe, on Dec 31 2005, 12:16 AM, said:

'Ganon' is the same 'Ganon' he's always been. Hence his desire to be rid of Zelda 'forever', and similar lines of dialogue that suggest prior engagement with Zelda (well, A Zelda) and the hero.

I don't think the 'forever' part suggests he knows Zelda from before. Ganon is just a little over the top sometime ("Curse you! I'll kill all your desendants"). He speaks like a typical villain would.

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Ganondorf in FSA is a reborn version of Ganondorf from OoT/TWW, just like Link is seemingly a reincarnation, born at a time where he has no power over the Gerudos and is thought of by most people as just a criminal desert nomad (if he is even known at all). However, he reverts back to his form as a demon once he gets the trident, becoming Ganon once more.

But Link doesn't have to collect anything to become a hero, whilst you're suggesting Ganondorf needs the Trident to become Ganon. I don't see how it's like reincarnation.

Hero of Legend, on Dec 31 2005, 02:02 PM, said:

Jokes aside, I agree with what you said, though as always there are some minor things...
Correct, but we do not know if Zelda did connect the appearance of Ganon with his name, because Ganon had already revealed it himself: "Zelda! I, Ganon, now seal you away forever!"
It is also possible that FSA explains how Ganon got the Trident before ALttP, though it requires more speculation.

I agree. What I am suggesting in this theory is that FSA was about Ganon getting the Trident before aLttP.

Doopliss, on Dec 31 2005, 07:33 PM, said:

Yes, but Ganondorf is not the same. He's a reincarnation of OoT Ganondorf. Reincarnation is different from reborn.

How is reincarnation different than reborn, and why would FSA Ganondorf be OoT Ganondorf reincarnated? Where is it suggested that this is the case?

Hero of Legend, on Dec 31 2005, 08:06 PM, said:

Huh? I think you meant "revived", not "reborn". In order to be reincarnated you need to be reborn. Thus, in essence, reborn and reincarnated are the same thing (in this case). When you are revived however, you are resurrected to life by an outside force. That is different from being reborn or reincarnated.
Yeah, and it's also very "standard" for the villain to go something like: "Oh no! That can't be happening! ARGHHHH!" when you defeat him. However, I brought this up only because Ganon acts so different in FSA compared to TWW. In that game he was fully aware that he could be defeated by Link, because he knew who Link was. That is not the case with FSA Ganon: "My blood boils, heroes! It seethes at the sight of you! Four Sword or no, my trident will reduce you to nothingness!" Now, obviously, Ganon thinks that he will win because of the Trident. But if Fyxe is right and this game is after ALttP, why the hell would he be more confident in FSA when he had both the Trident and the Triforce in ALttP?

How could the game be after aLttP if the Dark World still exists?

Fyxe, on Jan 2 2006, 12:36 AM, said:

A fair amount, also there does seem to be some connection between the unnamed Pyramid in FSA and the Pyramid of Power in ALttP, which is where we last saw the trident (unless you count the weapon Phantom Ganon weilded in OoT). Also, the trident is not what's turned Ganondorf into a demon and the King of Darkness in previous games; it's always been the Triforce, so this implies that the trident has some of the Triforce's power, which makes sense if it was used (and presumably made) by Ganon in ALttP. This makes less sense if the trident came first, and requires a tad more fanfic.

The problem with it coming after aLttP is that you can see the Dark World in FSA. Hence it has to come after OoT Child and before aLttP.

Fatgoron, on Jan 2 2006, 02:45 PM, said:

I think I can phrase that a little better.
The forever part only makes sense if Ganon is expecting her to cause trouble for him in the future, otherwise being rid of her even momentarily should be enough.
Logically, the only way Ganon could expect to be troubled by her in the future is if he's been around long enough to recognise the correlation between princess Zelda and his plans going tits up.

So, the forever line implies that he has had prior experiences that make him believe that Zelda will be a thorn in his side for so long as she exists.

Not necessarily. To say "I'm going to get rid of you" could be interpreted as meaning "I'm going to stop you from interfering with me". To say "I'm going to get rid of you forever" suggests "I'm going to kill you". It's a dressed up death threat which you see in tons of comics/cartoons ("I'll make sure you don't bother me, ever again" to characters that have just met and pissed each other off). That's the only difference between the two phrases IMO.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

I don't have time neither the energy to respond to all that. I've said all that needs to be said, if you want to interpret the dialogue in a way that generally seems less likely for all the reasons Fatgoron said, then that's your deal.

However, who's to say the Dark World can't return?

I mean, the Dark World exists in the Oracle games, right? And that's after Ganon's death, presumably after ALttP (it wouldn't make much sense if it wasn't after ALttP). When the Oracle games were released, Ganon had only been killed in ALttP and TLoZ, so either way the Oracle games were intended to come after ALttP.

[mohammedali]

Fyxe, on Jan 3 2006, 07:35 PM, said:

I don't have time neither the energy to respond to all that. I've said all that needs to be said, if you want to interpret the dialogue in a way that generally seems less likely for all the reasons Fatgoron said, then that's your deal.

It's no less likely than your suggestion, except your idea requires fanfic of Ganon remembering information from another Ganon before him. Not only is this whole 'other Ganon' idea unproven, but the 'proof' you use to suggest he remembers a past life is practiacally non-existant. Villains say "I'll be rid of you forever" all the time, usually implying they want to kill someone. To see it as anything else is a real stretch.

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However, who's to say the Dark World can't return?

I mean, the Dark World exists in the Oracle games, right? And that's after Ganon's death, presumably after ALttP (it wouldn't make much sense if it wasn't after ALttP). When the Oracle games were released, Ganon had only been killed in ALttP and TLoZ, so either way the Oracle games were intended to come after ALttP.

How did the DW 'return'. There is no reason to believe that it comes back at all. I have seen theories of OoX being at a time that the DW is mostly faded and is fading away (which is fanfic, but atleast makes sense). But where is it even hinted in the games that the DW returns?

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

Hero of Legend, on Jan 2 2006, 06:06 PM , said:

He doesn't really say much in any game other than OoT, TWW and FSA. Also, I don't think he acted surprised in ALttP. In fact, he was fleeing from Link. Maybe he had learned his lesson? (Not that Nintendo had any plans for future games when they made ALttP).

Indeed, it's highly probable he was fleeing from Link. Maybe he was afraid that Link could be the hero from the legend of the Great Cataclysm, and he wanted to break the seal before Link could do anything. Or he just wanted to keep secret his existence.

mohammedali, on Yesterday, 04:01 PM, said:

How is reincarnation different than reborn, and why would FSA Ganondorf be OoT Ganondorf reincarnated? Where is it suggested that this is the case?

Sorry, I was referring to revived instead of reborn.

After having read all the thread, I've come to a conclusion, and for the first time, I belive I have an idea of where FSA could be placed.

I believe it goes after OoT and before TWW, because the Dark World exists and it explains why Ganon hates Zelda so much, and after ALttP, because that the theory I believe in, and because it can't go between OoT and ALttP, anyway.

Edited by Doopliss, 04 January 2006 - 12:30 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

About the Dark World issue:

Isn't it possible that the Dark World has faded and become purified, returning to it's original status, but people STILL see it as tainted land because of their limited knowledge and legends and continue to call it the Dark World?

Or it could even be a seperate world entirely, much less defined and shadowy, created by Ganon to promote his schemes?

[Doopliss]

It seems likely, but it involves more fanfic, doesn't it?

[Showsni]

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How did the DW 'return'. There is no reason to believe that it comes back at all. I have seen theories of OoX being at a time that the DW is mostly faded and is fading away (which is fanfic, but atleast makes sense). But where is it even hinted in the games that the DW returns?

Well, we've been given two different versions of how the DW came into existence - 1. Ganon's wish, and 2. Ganon entering the realm. So the one that comes after the other one is how it returns.

[Hero of Slime]

Fanfic: (In my timeline FSA is placed between TWW and ALttP. The Dark world created by Ganondorf in OoT was destroyed by the Kings wish in TWW. In between TWW and FSA some unknown person makes a wish with the Triforce, creating FSA's version of the Dark World.)

It is possible, since no known character in FSA has the Triforce it is possible for some other character to have it. The Dark world in FSA is somewhat less Dark than the Dark World in ALttP, which we know was created by Ganon's wish.

[MikePetersSucks]

Or much less fanfic, maybe the King's wish, having the effect to purify the Sacred Realm, isn't instant, but a gradual effect.

[mohammedali]

MikePetersSucks, on Jan 6 2006, 10:52 PM, said:

Or much less fanfic, maybe the King's wish, having the effect to purify the Sacred Realm, isn't instant, but a gradual effect.

I agree with MPS. This sounds like the more likely option. It makes sense why the DW would be in OoX atleast. Not sure about FSA though, what is the 'role' of the DW in the game? Is it increasing, decreasing, constant, what?

Mohammed Ali

[Mad Scrub]

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Originally Posted by mohammedali
It makes sense why the DW would be in OoX atleast.

Hang on, TWW takes place after the adult ending of OoT and in the adult timeline of OoT Koume and Kotake die. Are you saying that if Ganon can be brought back to life numerous times, why can't Koume and Kotake?

Edited by Mad Scrub, 06 January 2006 - 06:46 PM.

[Fyxe]

MikePetersSucks, on Jan 6 2006, 10:52 PM, said:

Or much less fanfic, maybe the King's wish, having the effect to purify the Sacred Realm, isn't instant, but a gradual effect.

Hold it, hold it, I just want to point this out...

It's fanfic that the King's wish 'purifies' the Sacred Realm anyway. Nothing of the sort is ever said, I certainly don't remember that. The Dark World isn't even mentioned in TWW, I don't think.

mohammedali, the Dark World is increasing in FSA, that's kinda part of the plot.

Edited by Fyxe, 06 January 2006 - 07:10 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Before ALttP When ganon made his wish, it changed the sacred realm into the Dark World and then when Link made his wish at the end of ALttP, the Dark World is changed again. Why would the King's wish not change the Dark world?

[Fyxe]

Actually, it was killing Ganon that got rid of the Dark World, and even then we don't know if it was an immediate thing or a gradual thing, or even just a temporary thing.

[Hero of Legend]

MPS said

Or much less fanfic, maybe the King's wish, having the effect to purify the Sacred Realm, isn't instant, but a gradual effect.

Or the Dark World never disappeared until ALttP and Ganon's wish (Before ALttP) simply made it into *THE* Dark World we see in ALttP. Also, the DW could easily return after ALttP if someone with an evil heart enters the SR.

All without any fan fiction whatsoever!

Edited by Hero of Legend, 07 January 2006 - 07:00 AM.

[mohammedali]

Mad Scrub, on Jan 6 2006, 11:45 PM, said:

Hang on, TWW takes place after the adult ending of OoT and in the adult timeline of OoT Koume and Kotake die. Are you saying that if Ganon can be brought back to life numerous times, why can't Koume and Kotake?

Huh? Not at all. I put OoX in the child timeline and not the adult one. Hence they are still alive when OoX happen, as they only died in the adult timeline.

Fyxe, on Jan 7 2006, 12:07 AM, said:

mohammedali, the Dark World is increasing in FSA, that's kinda part of the plot.

I thought so. So unlike OoX, it wouldn't make sense saying this was after aLttP where the dark world is decreasing.

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

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I agree with MPS. This sounds like the more likely option. It makes sense why the DW would be in OoX atleast. Not sure about FSA though, what is the 'role' of the DW in the game? Is it increasing, decreasing, constant, what?

It's just there, increasing, and you cross over to solve puzzles and stuff. However, each screen in the Dark World is totally isolated, and there's no way to leave except taking the portal back. It's almost like each portal leads to a seperate Dark World pocket dimension. However, there's one level called the "Dark World" But it's just a part of Hyrule under Ganon's control.

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Hang on, TWW takes place after the adult ending of OoT and in the adult timeline of OoT Koume and Kotake die. Are you saying that if Ganon can be brought back to life numerous times, why can't Koume and Kotake?

What relevance does this have at all to the Dark World? Since you made a quote about it O_o

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t's fanfic that the King's wish 'purifies' the Sacred Realm anyway. Nothing of the sort is ever said, I certainly don't remember that. The Dark World isn't even mentioned in TWW, I don't think.

Which is why I said "less fanfic." Not that there wasn't any at all.

[Fyxe]

mohammedali, on Jan 7 2006, 02:11 PM, said:

I thought so. So unlike OoX, it wouldn't make sense saying this was after aLttP where the dark world is decreasing.

Unless of course, Ganon returned, which would be a very good reason for it to increase. Which is exactly what happens in FSA; he is the one behind its increase.

[Mad Scrub]

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Originally Posted by MikePetersSucks
What relevance does this have at all to the Dark World? Since you made a quote about it O_o

It sounded like either you or mohammedali thought that OoS and OoA came after TWW because in OoS and OoA the Dark World was slowly disappearing as a result of the King's wish. I then pointed out that OoS and OoA can't come after TWW because in the adult timeline of OoT, which TWW continues on from, Link kills Koume and Kotake whereas in OoS and OoA they're both still alive. Maybe I misenterpreted what was said and if that is the case I apologise for any confusion I may have caused.

[Doopliss]

I don't think that the presence of Ganon affects the Sacred Realm. It's mostly who enters the Sacred Realm, and who uses the Triforce. That's why I think that the Dark World banished after TWW.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I'm with MPS. I think the Sacred Realm may have developed a notorious history every since the days of the IW. Even before Ganon touched it, other people were already lusting for the Triforce and their greed made them do bad things. With Ganon seizing the Triforce in the IW and turning it into the Dark World--that was the icing on the cake. Since then it has had a bad rep, and still does since people still get lost there. For all we know, even before Ganon took the Triforce, the realm of it's dwelling could've always changed a persons form. So even in a time of piece, due to all the crazy occurences that realm is referred to as the Dark World.

[MikePetersSucks]

And even before all that, there was a seal on the realm (See OOT) to keep just any moe from getting in. For all the people knew, it could've been to keep something IN, not them OUT, and formed legends about how the Triforce is guarded by demons and crap. Silly primitive civilizations. Religion is for Abrahamic Monads.

[mohammedali]

Mad Scrub, on Jan 8 2006, 03:26 AM, said:

It sounded like either you or mohammedali thought that OoS and OoA came after TWW because in OoS and OoA the Dark World was slowly disappearing as a result of the King's wish. I then pointed out that OoS and OoA can't come after TWW because in the adult timeline of OoT, which TWW continues on from, Link kills Koume and Kotake whereas in OoS and OoA they're both still alive. Maybe I misenterpreted what was said and if that is the case I apologise for any confusion I may have caused.

Not after WW but aLttP. It's in aLttP that we are told the DW will disappear as a result of Ganon being destroyed.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Legend]

Mohammed Ali said

It's in aLttP that we are told the DW will disappear as a result of Ganon being destroyed.

Yes, but as Fyxe said, if the DW's disappearance was because of Ganon's death, would it not return if Ganon returned to life (Which he does in FSA)?

Doopliss said

I don't think that the presence of Ganon affects the Sacred Realm. It's mostly who enters the Sacred Realm, and who uses the Triforce. That's why I think that the Dark World banished after TWW.

That's not a fact. Besides, Ganon can still enter it more than once.

MPS said

Silly primitive civilizations. Religion is for Abrahamic Monads.

Yeah. Except when the gods flood the entire world because ONE guy pissed them off.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 09 January 2006 - 03:05 PM.

[Fatgoron]

Hero of Legend, on Jan 9 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

Yes, but as Fyxe said, if the DW's disappearance was because of Ganon's death, would it not return if Ganon returned to life (Which he does in FSA)?

Were it a result of Ganon's death, it would be because he no longer exists in the SR, or because he no longer commands the Triforce.
In the first instance it would depend upon Ganon's being in the SR when returned to life. We can't really say much about that as we don't have enough information to judge what kind of change to expect. Wether it would be gradual or instantaneous, or prevented by someone else's already being in the SR.

In the second instance, he would have no immediate effect, since the Triforce would not be under his control.

[Tri-Enforcer]

The reason the Dark World will 'vanish' at the end of aLttP is because Ganon is no longer the wielder of the Triforce. Also, Link makes a wish as well anyway--which should cancel out the evil Ganon left behind in the Dark World. Whatever a person does with the Triforce is a reflection of their hearts and intent. Ganon was evil so he wished for a place like the Dark World, where he built up his power. I don't think the land changes automatically, without the Triforce. If you do not have the Triforce, you'll have to take it over by yourself and change it yourself. If FSA Ganon is the return of the Ganon from aLttP, the Dark World will not change automatically because of his presence in it--he may have the long process of doing it himself--with his own power and brute force. However I don't think this likely case in FSA. Like I said before--that realm has had a notorious history. I mean there are [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of places in real life that bear names because of reputation, even if the things that gave it a bad name no longer occur.

[MikePetersSucks]

Plus there's absolutely nothing "Dark" about it. I mean, God, there's CHILDREN playing in there.

[Fyxe]

Absolutely nothing dark about it? I'd disagree with that. It was lifeless for the most part, and also home to innumerable numbers of Stalfos. Also, check out the 'Dark World' section of the game, and the part of the Dark World you get transported to during the final battle. Nasty.

[MikePetersSucks]

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home to innumerable numbers of Stalfos

Same goes for Hyrule.

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It was lifeless for the most part,

Dur. It's the throne of the Golden Power. Of course no one's gonna live there.

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Also, check out the 'Dark World' section of the game,

Which, incidently, is not ACTUALLY part of the Sacred Realm/Dark World. Hmm.

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the part of the Dark World you get transported to during the final battle. Nasty.

Which is a direct counterpart to the ruined first floor of the Tower of Winds. What's dark about it? The blackness? I call graphical limitations.