134 replies to this topic

[Dai Grepher]

Not the majority. Believe it!

I never said it made them sexually deviant. I said they are that in responce to the notion that they were mature for their ages. Believe it!

[Chikara Nadir]

Dai Grepher: Haku has said before that deceiving your opponent is essential in battle. How do you know that Haku calling herself a boy is not a deception to protect her true identity? If her moto were about being deceptive to the opponent then why would she outright say that she is a boy? Wouldn’t it be better having them believe her to be a female, who we all know are weaker in battle? Also, all those other times she was called a boy it was by people who were told Haku was a boy.

If you're gonna go on the subject of deception, then wouldn't it make more sense that Haku is dressed as a girl to deceive people into believing that he's female, and therefore weak/innocent?

Dai Grepher: The WWE is entertainment for older teens and adults. If some people allow their children to watch it then it is their choice and their problem. Also, the fans know that it is fake, so they know that it is hurting no one. They do not enjoy it because of the things you stated.

Are you insinuating that the fans are meant to believe that ninjas with the souls of evil foxes sealed inside of them are real? And if all the fans know that wrestling moves are fake and harmless, then I'd like to know why there's still so many kids, teens, and even adults who try to reenact them, sometimes with painful (or deadly) consequences.

[Dai Grepher]

If you're gonna go on the subject of deception, then wouldn't it make more sense that Haku is dressed as a girl to deceive people into believing that he's female, and therefore weak/innocent?

Are you insinuating that the fans are meant to believe that ninjas with the souls of evil foxes sealed inside of them are real? And if all the fans know that wrestling moves are fake and harmless, then I'd like to know why there's still so many kids, teens, and even adults who try to reenact them, sometimes with painful (or deadly) consequences.

My point exactly. Why dress, act, and talk like a girl in order to deceive your opponent just to reveal that you are actually a boy? That does not make sense. Saying that she is a boy may also be a mind game to make the opponents unsure about her mental stability or her capabilities in battle. Perhaps posing as a male that dresses as a girl intimidates some opponents. Perhaps she feels that the guy she is being a tool for (forget his name) would not give a girl a chance. Or maybe she likes to make boys like Naruto drop their jaws when they hear that she is a boy after looking her over like they do. No, I will definitely need to see proof before I use him, he, or his to refer to Haku. Believe it!

The violence in Naruto has never been an issue in my posts. There aren't many people doing that. There is however the occasional nut that would hurt themselves or others regardless of what is on TV. Believe it!

[Selena]

As strange as it is for our culture, it's not that uncommon to see in an anime. Lancer, from Robotech the Sentinels, for example. A male fighter pilot who cross dressed as a female singer in order to get a good disguise.


Or there's Flea from Chrono Trigger, as another. Who knows. It's a Japan thing. Femme boys.

[DarkJuno]

-steps in-

Erm, except the Sentinels was only anime in the same sense that Transformers was anime - drawn and animated overseas, but primarily designed over here.

-steps out-

[Selena]

Close enough.

[DarkJuno]

Yeah, I know, but I felt the need to point it out. Which probably isn't that big a surprise.

[Dai Grepher]

Selena: As strange as it is for our culture, it's not that uncommon to see in an anime. Lancer, from Robotech the Sentinels, for example. A male fighter pilot who cross dressed as a female singer in order to get a good disguise.

Or there's Flea from Chrono Trigger, as another. Who knows. It's a Japan thing. Femme boys.

Dai Grepher: I know there are characters like James from Pokemon or Hanagota from SMJ, or even Soma Cruz from Castleveinia (though I dislike lumping him in with the previously mentioned characters). All right fine, but in all of those cases we know they are males. In this case we have a feminine looking character saying that she is a boy even though she appears to be a female and is voiceovered by a female. Believe it!

Apparently there is some evidence as to Haku’s true gender... but supposedly she dies in an early episode, so we may never know for certain. However, the evidence that exists suggests that Haku is a girl, because she is referred to as Zabuza’s consort, which is usually given to wives or mistresses of nobility. Also because both Zabuza and Haku show profound feelings for each other at their deaths.
So I guess it is up to you to think of those two as homosexuals or not when it comes down to it. Believe it!

In reality, I think Haku’s appearance and features are no different than Shizune’s, who is a girl that could pass for a boy much easier than Haku. I mean, Haku has needles and ice mirrors. What kind of weapon/ability is that? Needles are used for sewing and mirrors are used to see one’s own appearance. Both are things that girls do a lot. While Shizune has poison gas and posion needles. Most boys practice their gas attacks contantly by… well you see where I’m going with this right? The only thing that makes anyone think that Haku is a boy is what she and Zabuza have said about her gender. That is not enough compared to the evidence contray to that idea. Believe it!

[Hero of Winds]

What, and America isn't sexually deviant?

Not nearly to the point that Japan is.

This is the most bemusing thing I've seen. In a discussion about censorship, Dai comes up with this totally random quote that makes little to no sense.

I'm sorry, Dai, but when it comes to censorship, they totally screw the hell out of animes shown in America. They remove references to death, or hell, and most kids watching uncensored anime will not turn into some kind of twisted weirdo.

The only way you can possibly come to this conclusion is if you only watch dubs like Shaman King, Sonic X, or Yu-Gi-Oh (basically, Fox/WB dubs). I'm incredibly satisfied by the number of dubs out there that are true to the source material. You just need to look beyond basic cable to find it.

Anyways, as for Naruto, the show is heavily reminiscent of DBZ... which is a very bad thing. The show's gone weeks without actually doing anything (in regards to both the fighting and the storyline), and the characters seemingly have an unlimited amount of chakra. Hell, they have an unlimited amount of endurance. Both Naruto and Sasuke's bodies are filled to the brim with whatever the hell Haku was throwing at 'em (I don't want to call them needles, but I can't think of anything else), and yet they keep moving.

Better yet, despite using techniques that use large amounts of chakra, and being inexperienced genin (isn't this only their second battle), Naurto and Sasuke are holding their own against a powerful shinobi (and one who constantly says "And now I have to end this", yet only continues to injure, not kill, the two).

Last night's episode was the straw that broke the camel's back, in regards to my criticism. Much like DBZ, Sasuke "dies" (he's obviously just unconscious, unless the anime and manga deviate from each other to a large degree), Naruto gets pissed, and unleashes his huge inner power (with the onlookers gasping and saying things akin to "This power! It can't be!"). Plus there was Kakashi "sacrificing" himself to protect Sakura, who seems to be content at just standing there and screaming.

*sigh*

[Chikara Nadir]

Oh, we all know that Haku was just playing with Sasuke and Naruto because...well, he has too much heart to kill them. It's something that they're going to actually say in the series pretty soon, I believe.

And Kakashi just sacrificed himself as a ploy to work into his next ninja technique. But I say no more, because I've seen/read waaaay too much of this series.

[Hero of Winds]

Oh, we all know that Haku was just playing with Sasuke and Naruto because...well, he has too much heart to kill them. It's something that they're going to actually say in the series pretty soon, I believe.

I thought as much. It's still incredibly annoying for him to keep repeating "Now to end this" and then... not end it. Sure he has to lie to Naruto and Sasuke, but must he lie to himself? =P

[Fyxe]

Not the majority. Believe it!

Depends what you count as 'sexually deviant'.

Believe it!

Shut up and stop saying that.

Not nearly to the point that Japan is.

Some, y'know, evidence to back up your statements might be called for if you're going to make such generalisations.

The only way you can possibly come to this conclusion is if you only watch dubs like Shaman King, Sonic X, or Yu-Gi-Oh (basically, Fox/WB dubs). I'm incredibly satisfied by the number of dubs out there that are true to the source material. You just need to look beyond basic cable to find it.

Personally, I have yet to find a dub that doesn't screw with a series somehow. Even 'high quality' dubs of films like Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away mess with certain issues.

Plus the voices never seem right.

[Dai Grepher]

Hero of Winds: Not nearly to the point that Japan is.

Dai Grepher: Right. In Japan the have sexual animes on during Saturday morning cartoons. They also have a basic cable station that is porn 24/7. Believe it!

Hero of Winds: Anyways, as for Naruto, the show is heavily reminiscent of DBZ... which is a very bad thing. The show's gone weeks without actually doing anything (in regards to both the fighting and the storyline), and the characters seemingly have an unlimited amount of chakra. Hell, they have an unlimited amount of endurance. Both Naruto and Sasuke's bodies are filled to the brim with whatever the hell Haku was throwing at 'em (I don't want to call them needles, but I can't think of anything else), and yet they keep moving.

Dai Grepher: Right, and this is after Haku said that she would end the fight because she must help Zabuza, so it is not as if Haku was still toying with them. I also find this disapointing because it has been said that Haku knows the human body completely and that her needles puncture nerves and muslces so that a person cannot possible move or fight back. Believe it!

Hero of Winds: Better yet, despite using techniques that use large amounts of chakra, and being inexperienced genin (isn't this only their second battle), Naurto and Sasuke are holding their own against a powerful shinobi (and one who constantly says "And now I have to end this", yet only continues to injure, not kill, the two).

Dai Grepher: To be fair, they both went through vigorus training just before this battle when they pushed their abilities to their limits. Believe it!

Hero of Winds: Last night's episode was the straw that broke the camel's back, in regards to my criticism. Much like DBZ, Sasuke "dies" (he's obviously just unconscious, unless the anime and manga deviate from each other to a large degree), Naruto gets pissed, and unleashes his huge inner power (with the onlookers gasping and saying things akin to "This power! It can't be!").

Dai Grepher: I did not care either way. I knew that Naruto had that power to begin with, but it does seem like Naruto pulled a Gohan in that last episode. Believe it!

Hero of Winds: Plus there was Kakashi "sacrificing" himself to protect Sakura, who seems to be content at just standing there and screaming.

Dai Grepher: No, he did that to protect the bridge builder, not Sakura. Believe it!

Chikara Nadir: Oh, we all know that Haku was just playing with Sasuke and Naruto because...well, he has too much heart to kill them. It's something that they're going to actually say in the series pretty soon, I believe.

Dai Grepher: That is not the point. The point is that Haku said that she would have to end the fight but all of her attempts to end it failed. Death has nothing to do with ending a fight. Believe it!

Hero of Winds: I thought as much. It's still incredibly annoying for him to keep repeating "Now to end this" and then... not end it. Sure he has to lie to Naruto and Sasuke, but must he lie to himself?

Dai Grepher: Herself. Believe it!

Chikara Nadir: And Kakashi just sacrificed himself as a ploy to work into his next ninja technique.

Dai Grepher: Uh... no. Kakashi was completely ineffective during that time and he made no counter attack. Believe it!

Fyxe: Personally, I have yet to find a dub that doesn't screw with a series somehow. Even 'high quality' dubs of films like Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away mess with certain issues.

Plus the voices never seem right.

Dai Grepher: That is not the issue though. The main argument is about the dub messing the series up in content or continuity. Believe it!

[Hero of Winds]

Dai Grepher: First off, if you continue to say "Believe it!" at the end of every paragraph, I'm going to file a request for your IP ban. Now, as for the posts...

Some, y'know, evidence to back up your statements might be called for if you're going to make such generalisations.

Courtesy of Yami Yoshi over at Gamehiker.

Personally, I have yet to find a dub that doesn't screw with a series somehow. Even 'high quality' dubs of films like Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away mess with certain issues.

Evangelion, Nadesico, Samurai Champloo, FLCL, Excel Saga, Ghost in the Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist, and Samurai X (the Kenshin OVAs, if you're unaware) are all high quality dubs. What certain issues get messed up, exactly?

Plus the voices never seem right.

I don't know about that. I've always thought hearing things in English sounded more right than in Japanese. =P

Dai Grepher: To be fair, they both went through vigorus training just before this battle when they pushed their abilities to their limits. Believe it!

No, they ran up trees, which basically taught them (at best) how to shift chakra around to different parts of their body. It doesn't make them gods.

Dai Grepher: I did not care either way. I knew that Naruto had that power to begin with, but it does seem like Naruto pulled a Gohan in that last episode. Believe it!

Of course he has that power to begin with, I'm just sick of the cliche. Friend dies, hero gets mad, and unleashes a power that makes the bad guys tremble.

Dai Grepher: No, he did that to protect the bridge builder, not Sakura. Believe it!

I mistyped. But the point of my sentence was to show my annoyance with Kakashi's "sacrifice" and Sakura's uselessness.

Dai Grepher: Herself. Believe it!

I think you've been missing some of the show. Haku is a boy.

Dai Grepher: Uh... no. Kakashi was completely ineffective during that time and he made no counter attack. Believe it!

I think Chik was inadvertently spoiling some of the fight.

THANKS, Chik. =P

[Chikara Nadir]

You're welcome. Just felt like proving that the characters aren't entirely morons...but I really shoulda had spoiler tags, even if I didn't technically give away any details. Sowwies. ^^

And....yeah. Dai, saying "believe it!" once per post is plenty more than enough. Your name isn't Ripley or Dean Cain, so there isn't any solid reason for you to be that repetitive. Please don't keep it up.

[Dai Grepher]

Dai Grepher: First off, if you continue to say "Believe it!" at the end of every paragraph, I'm going to file a request for your IP ban. Now, as for the posts...

Dai Grepher: I cannot be banned for stating something that is not in violation of the user agreement. Believe it!

Evangelion, Nadesico, Samurai Champloo, FLCL, Excel Saga, Ghost in the Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist, and Samurai X (the Kenshin OVAs, if you're unaware) are all high quality dubs. What certain issues get messed up, exactly?

Dai Grepher: The only terrible dub I have seen is Duel Masters, which is a stupid show anyway.

No, they ran up trees, which basically taught them (at best) how to shift chakra around to different parts of their body. It doesn't make them gods.

Dai Grepher: It made them more focused and it strengthened their chakra use. This also did not make them god like. Saskae lost consciousness as I remember and so did Naruto before that. Naruto only tapped into his fox demon power when he though Saskae died trying to protect him.

Of course he has that power to begin with, I'm just sick of the cliche. Friend dies, hero gets mad, and unleashes a power that makes the bad guys tremble.

Dai Grepher: No argument there, and I hope the rest of the series is not like that.

I mistyped. But the point of my sentence was to show my annoyance with Kakashi's "sacrifice" and Sakura's uselessness.

Dai Grepher: Sakura is useless. That is like being mad that Foo cannot fight so Mugen and/or Jean must protect her.

I think you've been missing some of the show. Haku is a boy.

Dai Grepher: She is called a boy a lot in the recent episodes, but just because she is called that does not make it true. There is evidence that she is really a girl and is merely lying about her gender. It is also a fact that she is said to be a girl in the Singapore version.

I think Chik was inadvertently spoiling some of the fight.

Dai Grepher: No, I think Chik was wrong about the fight. The only reason Kakashi sacrificed himself that time was to protect the bridge builder, and that was only because he let his guard down with Zabuza. Believe it!

[DarkJuno]

For goodness' sake, if being ncie and understanding didn't work, I'll try it this way: say "Believe It" one more time, and I will suspend your ass.

[Dai Grepher]

No one has been nice about me saying that. In fact, I was never once asked to stop saying it. I was told...

Shut up and stop saying that.

and

First off, if you continue to say "Believe it!" at the end of every paragraph, I'm going to file a request for your IP ban.

You should suspend the people who chose to make threats or be rude instead of politely make a request. Believe that!

[Toan]

And....yeah. Dai, saying "believe it!" once per post is plenty more than enough. Your name isn't Ripley or Dean Cain, so there isn't any solid reason for you to be that repetitive. Please don't keep it up.

Hmm. Oddly enough, that looks like a polite way of asking you to cease and desist.

Suspended. Believe it!

And yes, members, keep out of it. As I just posted in member notices, leave modding to the mods - the Elitism rule comes into effect here. Consider this a first warning.

Edited by Toan, 19 December 2005 - 12:20 AM.

[Fyxe]

Courtesy of Yami Yoshi over at Gamehiker.

Ok, one article is barely decent evidence. Do you seriously believe nothing that deviant happens in oh-so-innocent America? You'd be naive to think so. That's my point.

Evangelion, Nadesico, Samurai Champloo, FLCL, Excel Saga, Ghost in the Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist, and Samurai X (the Kenshin OVAs, if you're unaware) are all high quality dubs. What certain issues get messed up, exactly?

Lets see... At regular moments during Princess Mononoke, the dub adds dialogue where there isn't any. Dubs also lose the subtleties in the language, due to the fact that they try and make it fit the lip movement, and that the Japanese language can say a lot more in a lot less time.

I'm not saying there are no decent dubs out there. I'd just rather listen to the originals and read what the characters are ACTUALLY saying.

I don't know about that. I've always thought hearing things in English sounded more right than in Japanese. =P

How is hearing anything in any language more 'right'? The difference in this case is that they were originally Japanese. Often the American dubbed voices bear little resemblance to the original voice of a character, and what's worse, the voice actors they get are sometimes absolutely *terrible*. In my experience, most American dubbing work is pretty poor. Like I said, I'm sure there's some good stuff, but even the good stuff has to make concessions.

And the majority of dubbing work is pretty lame.

[Nevermind]

It sounds more 'right' because that is the language that one from the western world has grown up with. I personally think they sound better in Japanese, almost as if more effort is put into the voices. These characters are made for Japanese voices, so to me it feels that the Japanese sounds better, and more fitting. Trigun, Bebop, FMA, etc. they've all got fantastic english dubs, but I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the Japanese sounds that much better.

Evangelion, though, I prefer in english, cos that's what I was always used to for that show alone.....and Shinji is done by a girl in the Japanese...

Gundam Wing and a select few other shows are the same.

[Jaina]

o.x dang this thread is getting a little violent. Everyone I would consider it a fair warning to either go back on a NICE subject on the anime and not about the dubbing. We all know the people who dub this anime..tone it down big time to make it appropriate for children as young as 4..so yeah they take out a TON of stuff..but leave it at that, and dont argue over the horrible pain of dubbing. If you want to talk about dubbing then make a thread about it..dont butcher this topic to talk about how much you hate it, because frankly I am tired of it. I would really like to go in this thread and talk about Naruto NOT dubbing. So yeah..



The manga rocks..>.>

[Hana-Nezumi]

On the subject of Naruto...

SAKURA IS AWESOME AND COOL AND NOT USELESS ETC ETC!

BLEH to anyone that says otherwise. XP

[Chikara Nadir]

Oh, I'm quite glad that it's Viz who controls Naruto for the most part. I've read and watched plenty of their series' in the past, and will with plenty more in the future, I dare say.

But..uh..no, the opening theme song was changed, and I think the closing one as well? Which was sad, seeing as the original closing song was done by a Japanese band...in ENGLISH. And his name is pronounced "Nah-ROO-toe." Not "Nahru-toe". I know, it's petty, and they really DO pronounce his name almost correctly in the English dub. But it's juuust different enough...they say it really harshly. It's the American accent in general that I think makes it sound really weird to me (a lot of words that we say are grating compared to how people elsewhere in the world say them).


And to Enchanted: Have you read ahead with what the Japanese have coming out in their manga? Because...heck yeah, Sakura can kick BUTT!

[Bond Extreme]

How is this show so cool and awesome. Today I watched an episode when all they do is talk at a table and throw up..... and talk about stories. Not much action to me.

[Chikara Nadir]

Oh, so you got the most quiet/slow episode of that entire story arc.

[Bond Extreme]

Ehh. Maybe it was like that but it was a bit immature. Naruto and this other guy was in a challenge to who eats more. They kept barfing but they wanted to see who ate more. It was a bit disturbing...

[Custommagnum]

They wanted more energy to train, and vomited because they're both morons who apparently don't know about the principles of digestion.

[Bond Extreme]

How is that more energy when you throw up?