288 replies to this topic

[Korhend]

"thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church"

And that church was the Catholic (universal) church, and accepted people of all creeds. As such, Jesus predicted this would happen.

[arunma]

All right. I hear you.

Allow me a day, ill just jot down the relevent versus, and try to 'help' you, cause that should be my and everybody else's motive yeah? ..

It starts of with the Sign of Jonah, the dream of Pilate's Wife, contradictions in the four gospels regarding the crucifixion, him being seen by his apostles AFTER crucifixion and most importantly the relevent versus regarding the lost sheep, to whom the son of man was sent!.

Wait a minute. You're going to disprove the crucifixion directly from the Gospel? Ha! I wouldn't miss this for all the communion bread in Rome.

[Korhend]

waffers arunma, they're waffers...you know like vanilla waffers, except Jesus flavored.

[arunma]

waffers arunma, they're waffers...you know like vanilla waffers, except Jesus flavored.

Yeah, but I was talking about any hypothetical non-Catholic churches which happen to be in Rome. Because we all know that the doctrine of transubstantiation is nonbiblical.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing this supposed proof against the death of Jesus. Precisely how do you prove this from a document which specifically says that Jesus died?

[Emiko]

Thanks for a good laugh Hermine...after a night of staying up with a crying baby I needed that...

So are you saying that YOU dont believe that Jesus died for us all? Or are you one of those peoples that believe Jesus ran away from his duties and lived in Japan or some other country and died a rip old age of whatever?

Wouldn't that be cowardly of him? Are you saying that Jesus was a coward???

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I find it difficult to believe that he deliberately died for us. The evidence Hermine provides only states that Jesus had no intention of dying, but could see no other way out so resigned himself to his fate.

It does not prove that Jesus did not die...

Although there is this guy buried in India called Issa, who is supposed to have had scars on his feet that suggested he had survived crucifixion and is supposed to have come from Judea...

[Showsni]

As for your Jonah arguments, they seem mostly just a matter of interpretation - I think Jesus was referriung more to the three days than the state Jonah was in.
As for Pilate trying to save Jesus, despite publicly washing his hands of the matter - wouldn't the fanatical Jewish leaders make him more likely to want to do as they say? If they got a whiff of unfair practise, they could make Pilate's life very difficult. The voice of the people is very powerful.

As for the rest, I found this:

Before the crucifixion, however, came the scourging. Every Roman execution (except those of women and Roman senators or soldiers) was preceded with scourging. Our Lord was stripped of His clothing and His hands were tied to an upright post. The whip consisted of several short braids of leather thongs with small iron balls or sharp pieces of sheep bones tied at intervals along the length.

Quoting from the medical article: "The upper and lower back and legs were flogged either by two soldiers or by one who alternated positions. The severity of the scourging depended on the disposition of the soldiers and was intended to weaken the victim to a state just short of collapse or death. After the scourging, the soldiers often taunted the victim. As the Roman soldiers repeatedly struck the victim's back with full force, the iron balls would cause deep contusions and the leather thongs and sheep bones would cut into the skin and subcutaneous tissues. Then, as the flogging continued, the lacerations would tear into the underlying skeletal muscles and produce quivering ribbons of bleeding flesh. Pain and blood loss generally set the stage for circulatory shock. The extent of blood loss may well have determined how long the victim would survive the cross."

We know from the Gospels that the scourging of our Lord was especially harsh. The soldiers were quite amused by the fact that Jesus claimed to be a king, so they wrapped Him in a robe and placed a crown of thorns on His head. Then they spat on Him and struck Him in the head with a wooden staff.

The harsh scourging, with its intense pain and considerable loss of blood, put our Lord almost in a state of shock. He no doubt grew weaker and weaker. Remember, He had not slept the night before, nor had he eaten since the previous evening. The doctors say that even before the crucifixion, our Lord's "physical condition was at least serious and possibly critical."

Jesus was so weakened by His ordeal that He was unable to carry the crossbar of His cross from the sight of the scourging to Calvary. The doctors take this as further evidence of how close to collapse and death the scourging had brought Him, since they believe that Jesus was in good physical shape before His punishment began. The normal rigors of our Lord's ministry demanded a healthy, physically fit person.

Jesus was accompanied from the scourging to Calvary by a complete Roman military guard. The guard was charged with staying with the crucifixion victim until they were certain of His death.

At the sight of the crucifixion, our Lord tasted and then refused the bitter drink of wine fixed with gall. The drink was intended as a mild pain-killer to prolong the agony of crucifixion. Jesus was then thrown to the ground and His arms were stretched out along the upper bar of the cross. At this point, the wounds on His back and legs reopened, bled again, and were rubbed in the dirt.

Tapered iron spikes from 5 to 7 inches long were then nailed through our Lord's wrists, not his palms, and into the cross. While the bones of the wrist are strong enough to support the body's weight, the bones of the palms are not. Drawings, paintings, and Scriptural descriptions of the Crucifixion show or mention the nails in the palms because the people of that time considered the wrists to be part of the hands, along with the palms.

The nails passed between the major long bones of the wrist and through the median nerve - thus producing sharp, stabbing bolts of fiery pain through His arms. No major blood vessels were punctured by the nails, however. After the wrists were nailed to the cross, our Lord and the top bar of the cross were lifted by the soldiers and attached to the upright section of the cross, which was already in the ground.

Then Jesus' feet were nailed to the upright section of the cross. The spike was driven between the second and third metatarsal bones of the foot, in such a way that the weight of the body could be supported on the spike. Again, the nail would not cut through any major blood vessel - but major nerves would be severed, thus producing great bolts of pain.

When the nailing was complete, the "titulus," or wooden plate inscribed with the victim's crime ("Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews") - which He had carried with Him through the streets to Calvary - was attached to the cross. The soldiers and the crowd then taunted Him and the soldiers divided up His clothes, as was the custom.

The major physiological effect of crucifixion was to make breathing - particularly exhaling - extremely difficult and painful. Victims usually died of either the loss of blood or by suffocating. The weight of the body pulling down on the outstretched arms and shoulders pulled the breathing muscles into a state of inhalation. Exhaling could only be accomplished with conscious effort, and even then breathing would be very shallow and not adequate. Muscle cramps and convulsions occurred.

The only way Jesus was able to breathe on the cross was by lifting His body up by pushing down on the nail through His feet and pulling Himself up on the nails in His wrists. This would allow the breathing muscles to stretch in their normal fashion. But it also produced searing bolts of excruciating pain through His arms and legs. The bleeding ribbons of torn flesh on His back scraped against the rough cross and bled once again. Each breath was not only agonizing, but extremely tiring.

Jesus spoke seven times from the cross. Since one must exhale in order to speak, even His brief words must have been extremely tiring and painful. The Gospels tell us that at about 3 PM that Friday afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, bowed His head, and died. The soldiers and onlookers witnessed and recognized His moment of death.

Victims of crucifixion generally lasted from 3 or 4 hours to 3 or 4 days before dying. The more severe the scourging, and the greater the loss of blood, the shorter would be the period before death. The Roman soldiers were trained to hasten death by either breaking the legs of the victim below the knee or stabbing the chest with a lance. Though the legs of the two thieves crucified along with Jesus were broken, the soldier pierced Jesus' side with his lance. The Gospel tells us that blood and water came forth from the wound. The doctors tell us that the lance in all probability pierced our Lord's right lung and then His heart, and the water which came forth was fluid from the lungs and heart. The accumulation of this fluid is normal in cases of heart failure and extreme blood loss. The lance thrust alone would have been fatal.

The doctors write that there are several possible explanations for the exact cause of our Lord's death. His sudden crying out in a loud voice just before He died suggests "a catastrophic terminal event" such as a heart attack or, as some suggest, an actual rupturing of the heart muscle. The doctors believe, however, that Jesus' crying out could have been caused by a fatal heart attack or sudden loss of normal heart rhythm. They believe that the cause of death, like that of other victims of crucifixion, was caused by many things, including the shock of extreme blood loss, exhaustion, suffocation, and heart failure. So weakened by the brutal scourging was our Lord, that this normally healthy, physically fit man in the prime of His life died after only 3 or 4 hours on the cross.

The exact cause of Christ's death is not the important point the doctors want to make, however. As they conclude: "The important feature may not be how He died but rather whether He died. Clearly the weight of medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to His side was inflicted. Accordingly, interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not die on the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical knowledge."

and this:

The New Testament provides a description of the events that surrounded the crucifixion of Jesus. The first event that impacts the question of Jesus' death was the scourging that occurred before His crucifixion. Scourging occurred as a preliminary Roman punishment in all instances of crucifixion.1 A short whip composed of several single or braided leather thongs tied to small iron balls or sharp pieces of sheep bones was primarily used in scourging.2 The severity of the scourging depended on the individuals who were doing the scourging. Its intent was to weaken the victim to a state just short of collapse or death.3 The Bible indicates that Jesus was scourged, although the degree to which He was punished is not detailed.4 However, a prophecy from Isaiah indicates that "His appearance was marred more than any man."5 A particularly graphic medical description of Roman scourging occurs in an article from JAMA.6

"As the Roman soldiers repeatedly struck the victim's back with full force, the iron balls would cause deep contusions, and the leather thongs and sheep bones would cut into the skin and subcutaneous tissues.7 Then, as the flogging continued, the lacerations would tear into the underlying skeletal muscles and produce quivering ribbons of bleeding flesh.2,7,25 Pain and blood loss generally set the stage for circulatory shock.12 The extent of blood loss may well have determined how long the victim would survive on the cross.8"

Jewish law limited the number of lashes to 39,2 although it is not known if the Romans would have abided by Jewish religious law. However, the biblical texts indicate that the soldiers assigned to scourging Jesus enjoyed mocking and torturing Him. They made a crown of thorns, put it on His head and pretended to hail Him as king.7 They continue to beat and punch and spit on Him until He was led back to Pontius Pilate.8 Such behavior indicates that Jesus' scourging was probably particularly harsh. Further evidence of the severity of the preliminary punishment could be seen in Jesus' inability to carry His own crossbar (which was customary3, 9) from the Praetorium to the crucifixion site.10

Jesus' CrucifixionDetails from the gospel accounts of the Jesus' crucifixion match those found in secular writings. For example, A sign on which the condemned man's name and crime were displayed was placed above the man's head.9,11 The gospels describe Jesus' sign, which said, "Jesus the Nazarene, the King of the Jews."12 The religious leaders didn't like the sign and suggested it be change to "He said I am King of the Jews."13 By law, the victim was given a bitter drink of wine mixed with myrrh (gall),3,14 which is mentioned in the gospel accounts.15 The condemned man was either tied or nailed to the crossbar, with nailing being the preferred method of the Romans.3,9 The gospels describe Jesus being nailed to the cross.16 Roman soldiers could hasten death of crucifixion victims by breaking the legs below the knees.3,9 This technique was described for the two thieves who were crucified with Jesus.17 To make sure Jesus was dead, the soldiers took a spear and pierced His side.18 It seems likely most Roman soldiers were taught to thrust a spear through the right side of the chest through the lungs and heart - a fatal wound.9  

The idea that Jesus just swooned on the cross and didn't die is medically impossible. Death by crucifixion occurred through exhaustion asphyxia - the victim eventually suffocated.6 The position of the body on the cross left the chest muscles used for breathing in a permanent inhalation position. In order to exhale, the victim would have to actively push his body up against the nails holding his feet to the cross. If Jesus had passed out on the cross, He would have died within 10 minutes by suffocation.9 What does the Bible tells us that happened after Jesus "swooned?" The Bible says that after Jesus had died, Joseph of Arimathea walked from Golgotha to the Praetorium to ask Pontius Pilate for the body of Jesus.19 Pilate was surprised that Jesus was dead already, so he sent a messenger to Golgotha to summon the centurion for questioning.20 After the centurion arrived, Pilate determined that Jesus was dead and allowed Joseph to take the body.20 The distance from the Praetorium to Golgotha was 1/3 mile.6 The necessary trips include:

Joseph Golgotha to Praetorium 0.33  
Messenger from Praetorium to Golgotha 0.33  
Centurion from Golgotha to Praetorium 0.33  
Joseph from Praetorium to Golgotha 0.33  
Total 1.33  

Even at the rapid pace of 5 mph (a very brisk walk indeed!) it would require a minimum of 16 minutes to complete all the trips. This time does not include any waiting time, which is unrealistic. Joseph would have had to wait for Pilate to be summoned, Pilate would have to wait and instruct the messenger, the messenger would have to convey the request to the centurion, and the centurion would have to report to Pilate and be questioned by him. Realistically, the entire scenario probably required over an hour. Jesus would have been dead well before that time if He had only swooned.

[arunma]

All right Harry. Since you seem to accept the accuracy of the Gospels, explain this: "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit." (St. Matthew 27:50). You can't use obscure details from the Gospel to say that Jesus didn't die, when the Gospel specifically says that he did die.

By the way, it is futile and impolite to blaspheme the apostle Saint Paul. First of all, we're not in the habit of attacking any religious figures here. I'm sure you'd object if someone spoke badly of Mohammed. Likewise, we hold that Paul was a servant of Jesus Christ, and no Christian will listen to you if you disrespect him. Furthermore, he was universally accepted by the other apostles and the church. It sounds to me like you're deriding him because you know that his letters are the most reliable Scriptures, and that they attest many times to the crucifixion and resurrection. Such behavior isn't very honest, don't you agree?

[Alakhriveion]

my name's spelled with k's. i can call you hairy-hemroid and it wouldn't change a thing.

Well, it'd get you suspended. Was there an insult here?

[Emiko]

oh, I wasn't offended...it takes [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] to get the great Emiko offended XP I just thought your words to be hillarious..and no, I don't believe that Jesus was a coward...he came down to this Earth knowing that he was going to die a painful death..

The reason that I didn't quote the rest of the scripture was because well it was not important to quote the whole scripture...

No where in the bible does it say that Jesus planned on not dying....on the contrary in many scriptures it has Jesus stating that he is going to die.

John: 17, 18

and even Mark mentioned it in Mark 10: 45....

I would quote them, but a crying baby becones me :3 *rushes off*

[Korhend]

It is known to every man that from a 'dead' body, blood cannot possibly not gush out as the hearts stop working and there is nothing to pump blood, it simply gets clotted.

All liquids move from an area of more pressure to less pressure. If you stab a hole in the side of a milk carton the milk will spill out until it cant reach the hole anymore. Even without pressure from the heart blood still spills out at an immense rate, and if they hit an organ such as say, the liver, even more fluid would spill out in the form of Bile. The idea that we wouldn't bleed profusely without a heart is proposturous.

[arunma]

Harry, you still haven't answered my question. How could the Gospels possibly advocate that Jesus survived the crucifixion, when specific verses in each Gospel clearly say otherwise? If the Gospel says that Jesus died by crucifixion, it's intellectually dishonest to use a roundabout argument, based on the Gospels, to indicate that Jesus did not die. You've provided conjecture and speculation. I've provided a clear verse that indicates the contrary.

I've heard this precise argument before from the Muslims that I've debated. Thus I'm guessing you're Muslim. If you were to simply say "because the Qur'an says so," I'd accept that as a valid argument. But to twist the Gospel into something the authors never intended (not to mention your blasphemy of God's Apostle) is both dishonest and illogical.

[Alakhriveion]

Korhend, it saddens me to know that you have no idea on what you talk about, but 'defend' it regardless. 'blind faith'.

And yes, how *propostorous* it is that blood cannot gush out from a dead body. Give me sometime while i change facts about the human body.

What the hell? Blood comes out of dead bodies. Like Korhend said, a bottle has no heart, but if you poke a hole in it, it won't contain fluid anymore. This is just physics.

[Reflectionist]

it's called potential energy. think of it like a balloon. a balloon's air isn't constantly moving around inside of it, nor is the balloon pulsating in any way. The air within it still exerts force on all sides of the balloon, which balances the pressure out, if you poke a hole in one side of the balloon, all of the air will rush out of that one side. if the balloon was heavier than the air pressure exiting it, it would stay still and a jet of air would shoot out of the hole, such as the case with blood and whatnot from Jesus' side.

[Korhend]

You're accusing me of blind faith? Fine. Stand up to my test. Get a carton of fruit punch. Get you're mothers most expensive white dress. Hold the carton over it. Stab the carton in the side with a knife. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about, the juice will stay in the carton no matter how many holes you make.
If me and every other scientist on earth is right, osmosis will cause the juice to come flooding out until it physically cannot leave anymore.

[Fyxe]

While I don't know the technical aspects of the human body, I DO know that fruit punch doesn't clot, and it's very hard to make a carton of fruit punch die.

[Reflectionist]

Fine. Stab yourself.

[Fyxe]

Bit pointless if you're stabbing a live person.

[Alakhriveion]

Kill yourself and stab yourself?

Just trying to help.

[Reflectionist]

hmm, and Korhend didn't allude to crucifying / beating / flogging / killing a carton of fruit punch either, as is the case with Jesus.

[Fyxe]

Well done boys for turning logic upside it's head in the name of pointless comparisons.

[Alakhriveion]

Well done boys for turning logic upside it's head in the name of pointless comparisons.

What are you talking about? OK, have you ever handled or seen a meat of any kind? You know that fluid you get small amounts of coming out when you sever and poke it? Imagine a WHOLE animal made out of meats. Now imagine it was living just an hour ago. No imagine it being severed and poked.


See? Pointed comparison.

[Korhend]

Just try imagining this. Some ones body out cold on the floor, lifeless from asphixiation (the cause of death in crucifixion). I cut a big ol' hole in his side, and its not going to have blood spill out? The milk carton anology still works because last I checked, Most people aren't wolverine. They can't clot a spear wound in moments. If you're dead however one thing you [i]cannot[i] do anyway is clot. Deprived of oxygen the cells responsible for this process die. So if anything, blood gushing points to him being dead already.