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It's only fair that we have a 'Christian Bashing thread'


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#91 arunma

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 12:19 PM

I have a question. Have all the people who were born before the existence of Christianity, or all the children who died before they knew about it, or all those people in countries where knowledge about Christianity is limited... Have they all been sent to suffer eternal hellfire?


The apostle Saint Paul tells us that the Gospel was preached beforehand even to Abraham. All people have been given God's message in some form or another, and they could be saved by having faith that he would redeem them from their sins. But now, we know that he has already redeemed us in Christ. I suppose we may have a few advantages over the ancients, but even they could be saved.

#92 Reflectionist

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 12:21 PM

maybe john 3:3 isn't what i was thinking of....

I don't know the verse off the top of my head, but Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me."

#93 Nevermind

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 12:22 PM

From Adam and down through his line. This is, from a Christian viewpoint, the genesis of humankind, including the Egyptians. The 'organised' Christian religion was the belief in God, who was [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] closer to humankind back then.

What I'm trying to say is that if you are a Christian, then you do not believe that Egyptians came first. God was working directly with humankind himself.

And depending on your beliefs, in those three days whilst Jesus was dead, He went down into Hell. The point behind this sacrifice was to redeem all the souls of humankind, which I would assume included the souls of those humans already residing in Hell. From then onwards the covenant was changed to 'Seek forgiveness and be redeemed, or go to Hell. Your choice."


Re, even so, that verse says to follow Jesus. It doesn't say "be completely intolerant to those who do not come to me", because in the end, it is their choice. That is the basis behind the New Covenant, that they must ask for redemption themselves, not that you must criticise them for being wrong.

#94 Emiko

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 12:22 PM

Jesus prohibits the worship of false Gods.  "Then Jesus said to him, 'Be gone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.''" (St. Matthew 4:10).  So bowing before the Buddha, worshiping false Hindu gods, practicing ancient European paganism, taking part in wicca, and all of these other things are prohibited.
 
Jesus also says that only in him are people saved.  "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (St. John 3:18).
 
Saint Paul says that we are to use our intellect to combat false beliefs.  "We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ." (2 Corinthians 10:5).
 
We're not allowed to combine Christian beliefs with false beliefs.  It says, "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons." (1 Corinthians 10:21).
 
Do you have comments?



*raises hand*

EMI DOES EMI DOES!!

and thats why emi doesnt celebrate holidays...cause they have pagan backgrounds...for instance the only two birthdays celebrated in the bible were those of non worshipers of God..the Pharaoh and what his name Kind Haggard @_@ i cant remember his name now....

#95 Nevermind

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 12:31 PM

Yeah, arunma, I do. Those verses all pertain to one actually participating in prohibited activities. Allowing them to happen is the choice of the partaker. All you can do is be sure they have the knowledge of what Jesus has said, and then the rest is up to them. You are not one to decide who is condemned and who is not, and so unless you are the embodiment of divine retribution, you can't really show intolerance towards these people, because that would require you to bring down some form of retribution. All you can do is be sure you don't partake in them yourself.

#96 Alakhriveion

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 01:14 PM

Four pages in a day? On all the continents of God's green Earth, there is not enough coffee to get me through this.

I will, however, address a few things, assuming theism. Whether or not there is a god or a creation or what-not is it's own subject. Refer to first line of post.

God's will is not only demostrated in the Bible. Yeah, he created it, but also the Earth he created. If they appear to contradict, as in the Earth clearly showing a billions of years long history of evolution, and the Bible claiming a six day creation, remember that that it's easy for a story to be a metaphor and much harder for a rock to be.

#97 arunma

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, arunma, I do. Those verses all pertain to one actually participating in prohibited activities. Allowing them to happen is the choice of the partaker. All you can do is be sure they have the knowledge of what Jesus has said, and then the rest is up to them. You are not one to decide who is condemned and who is not, and so unless you are the embodiment of divine retribution, you can't really show intolerance towards these people, because that would require you to bring down some form of retribution. All you can do is be sure you don't partake in them yourself.


Then I think you'll have to define tolerance. For example, I fully support legal freedom of religion. In fact, I think Christianity flourishes to a far greater extent when people are allowed to freely worship false gods. If this is a description of tolerance, then I suppose I am tolerant.

On the other hand, I'm intolerant of other religions in the sense that I believe they are false. For example, I would never let a Buddhist idol in my house unless it was in pieces. I'm not sure if this is how you define intolerance, or not. As for condemnation, I haven't condemned anyone. Only God can do that. But I oppose misrepresentation of the Bible. The Bible does not say that everyone will be saved. It says that only people who believe in Christ will be saved, and the rest will be condemned. I don't see how I am personally condemning anyone by defending intellectual honesty.

#98 Doopliss

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 04:43 PM

What tells you, Christians, that your religion is true, if there are so many religions and the only reason to believe in Chrisitanity is the bible that is one of the many religious books who all claim to be true? What gives theist religions more validity than others that are also mere hypothesis? You says that Muslims will go to hell for not believeing in your religion, but they also say you'll be punished for not believing the same as them.

Why do you believe god to be perfect if Jesus abolished many of the old rules?

And, Lazurukeel, for the reasons that I have exposed in this post, physics can't be compared with religion; they are based in objective principles that never change and apply to everything that exists, but religion (talking about generality) is made up of many different ways of thinking that don't match with each other.

Arunma, you can't claim that the interpretation of the bible you give is the correct one because it's completely subjective. You know, the way I interpret it is as a compendium of fictional low-quality sotries that were written by common people that express a way of thinking by metaphors and similes that is intentioned to educated people but very retrograde.

Alak, maybe all the caffeine from the world can't get you through this, but all the boredom of the world can.

#99 Dryth

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 05:13 PM

Interesting read. More critical of American Christians (or those that claim to be) than Christianity as a whole. I believe the associated issue of Harpers is now out on news stands.

The notion of "God helps those who help themselves" one has always irked me, and is discussed in the above article. The fact that you'd have the likes of Walker Texas Ranger and Pat Robertson echoing the sentiment on a regular basis makes it somewhat painful. But then, I would trust the latter about as much as the former for good Christian education. ;)

Of course, it's Harpers, so take with whatever grain of salt one deems appropriate.

#100 arunma

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 05:25 PM

Why do you believe god to be perfect if Jesus abolished many of the old rules?


He didn't abolish the old rules. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (St. Matthew 5:17). The Law says that we are to take vengeance eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But it also says that we must love our neighbors as ourselves. Would such a Law permit us to take the legal vengeance? Jesus says that it would not. The Torah mentions the law of retribution for a reason, but that reason isn't that we ought to take retribution.

And, Lazurukeel, for the reasons that I have exposed in this post, physics can't be compared with religion; they are based in objective principles that never change and apply to everything that exists, but religion (talking about generality) is made up of many different ways of thinking that don't match with each other.


But science isn't relevant at the moment. His point was that you can't argue a topic without referencing the basic information on that topic. You can't argue history without referencing historical events. Nor can you argue political science without referencing the law. Nor can we argue Christianity without referencing the Bible.

Arunma, you can't claim that the interpretation of the bible you give is the correct one because it's completely subjective.


Actually, my interpretation of the Bible is based on the church fathers, the Protestant reformers, and the beliefs of the anabaptists. In other words: I have tradition on my side, and in the Christian religion, tradition is important. On the other hand, your belief that the Bible is fictional is nontraditional. You're welcome to that interpretation, but it is not sanctioned by Christianity. And if you argue based on your own interpretation of the Bible rather than ours, then you're not arguing Christianity anymore. If you want to present an opposing Christian viewpoint (such as Catholic theology), then it's possible to argue interpretations of the Bible. But using your own interpretation of the Bible to argue against Christianity serves no purpose other than to disprove the validity of your interpretation.

#101 Selena

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 06:30 PM

I think the only major problem with Christianity, as with anything, are those people who take it too far. Most of the Christians I know are really nice, laid back people. I get along with them great. They don't judge, they don't stick their noses where they don't belong, and most importantly, they don't hound people of other religions about either converting or telling them that they're wrong. Which I think other, more hardcore, Christians could learn from. But naturally, the hardcore ones tend to think that the laid back ones are not 'real Christians', as they've told me.


A main problem with Christianity I have is... well, the guys who continually say that every other religion is wrong and that the followers of said religions are blinded fools. Or the ones that actively go around trying to convert (in America, of all places). For the first incident, I can understand why you'd think your own personal religion is correct. That's natural. But the diehards that go out of their way (even if they think it's subtle) to tell others that they're worshipping 'false gods', as arunma has mentioned at least once, well... sorry, man, that's just downright rude, religion or not.

As for converters... no one is going to make me belive in Christianity if preachers knock on my door at seven o'clock in the morning while I'm in the shower. That, in fact, will make me want to be a Satanist, just out of spite. It's the States, Christianity is the biggest religion. People know about it, already. Converting in the States is just irritating. And yes, I know not everyone is well versed in Christian theology (I know a decent amount, despite being an agnostic), but still. If they wanted to gain insight, or convert entirely, they already know where to go.


The religion itself is all right, if anything just for the stories (sidenote: Uriel and Lilith pwn, Apocrypha or not), but my main problem mainly lies with the fundies. Most of the 'regular' Christians are okay. Sorry, Titman. ;)


As for tolerance vs. love.... well, you certainly can't really LOVE someone if you can't tolerate them, at least in my mind. Toleration means putting up with them. You can't love someone unless you're able to put up with their antics.


A second issue is the "Thou Shalt not Kill" commandment, which I'm sure every Christian's heard at least once or twice. Why make it a commandment if god occasionally orders a massacre (at least in the Old Testament)? Perhaps god really is a female, and just has mood swings. Like all those first-born kids in Egypt. It made a point, sure, but most of those kids were innocent. That's not very loving, if you ask me. But the Old Testament reads like a bloodbath, whereas the New is all about love and peace. God must've changed his mind halfway through human civilization to take a more calm approach to things. Or something. And the end of the world. Blow it up instead of trying to save it again, apparently.


Christianity. Lots of interesting stories and legends (although all the REALLY good ones have been dismissed as Apocrypha, sadly), and most followers are nice, but it's the loudmouthed minority that makes it difficult to deal with. Not really my cup of tea, anyway. Too much about servitude and the afterlife. I think people take the Bible too literally, actually. Most of those stories, although based on fact, are probably very exaggerated, like any good legend. And some are probably myths all together, told only to express a moral about the world. Sorry. Never bought into the 'exact word of God' thing.


But that's just coming from an agnostic. ;)

#102 Black Knight

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 07:07 PM

I have a question:

Why is it that Christians haven't integrated Mohammed's teachings into their religion? Mohammed was the most recent prophet, but I never hear anything about him in Church. Do Christians just dismiss him as a "false prophet" because they're unwilling to change?

#103 Fyxe

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 07:23 PM

I've decided to start worshipping Selena after that post she just made.

#104 Kwicky Koala

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 08:21 PM

Call me prejudiced, but when people start talking about how much they love thier faith it just ruins any coolness they might have had.

#105 Armeggadon

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 08:42 PM

I agree with Selena entirely. The bible and prtty much everythig in it can be interpreted completely different by different people all over the world. also the bible contradicts itself in many ways (as selena used to massacres and death of the first born in example)

If you guys haven't read The Da'Vinci code I woudl highly recommend it. It points out several things in the bible where it contradicts itself and where it coudl be interpreted so many different ways that it's impossible to actually have one single meaning. The church i used to go to pretty much condemned the book because of this but i read it anyway becaue i've never been that much of a religious person anyway.


ok no that that's out of the way i have a couple questions to ask since you said you would answer them.

one
The story of moses tells how he parts the red sea and takes his people to freedom and once they are safe it comes back togther and swallows up the egyptian army. Do you believe this or do you have your own ideas o it ro what.

two
This is kind of two questions in one. Ok, In the bible t is told that Jesus was born immaculately. Mary and Joseph were married so i find it hard to believe that she was a virgin and that it wasn't his (or someone elses) baby. The second part of this is that, Jesus spread the word of god and performed supposed miracles. He also claimed heavily to be the son of God. In the church you learn that we are all "the children of God" so what exactly made jesus so special.

third and last
A story is told of Jesus making 5 loaves of bread and a fish feed ~5000 people for an entire day with baskets of fod left over. Is this another one of those stories that can be interpretted various ways be pretty much anyone...

you never answered my last question about dinasaurs so i'm asking these three and letting that one slide. But you said you woudl answer all our questions so there are a few that i wondered about.

#106 Alakhriveion

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 08:59 PM

The notion of "God helps those who help themselves" has always irked me.

I help those who help themselves, too.

#107 Emiko

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 09:40 PM

God's will is not only demostrated in the Bible.  Yeah, he created it, but also the Earth he created.  If they appear to contradict, as in the Earth clearly showing a billions of years long history of evolution, and the Bible claiming a six day creation, remember that that it's easy for a story to be a metaphor and much harder for a rock to be.


You have to remember that a day in God's time is 1000 of years in ours...so techincally if you read it correctly we are still in the 7th day of creation

 
two
This is kind of two questions in one. Ok, In the bible t is told that Jesus was born immaculately. Mary and Joseph were married so i find it hard to believe that she was a virgin and that it wasn't his (or someone elses) baby. The second part of this is that, Jesus spread the word of god and performed supposed miracles. He also claimed heavily to be the son of God. In the church you learn that we are all "the children of God" so what exactly made jesus so special.


The bible clearly states that Mary didnt get married to Jospeh until after she was pregant..

#108 Alakhriveion

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 10:04 PM

You have to remember that a day in God's time is 1000 of years in ours...so techincally if you read it correctly we are still in the 7th day of creation

God's resting? I have my doubts. I take days off, but I usually read or play WarCraft: parting the Red Sea? Not so much. The creation account uses an analogy, there's no math for days and millenia.

#109 Toan

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Posted 30 July 2005 - 10:29 PM

Mmkay, Toan's making another cameo into Contro. *ahem*

So, I was watching this show on FX made by the dude who ate nothing but McDonald's for a month. It's called 30 Days, and I stumbled across it about 30 seconds into this episode about this fella from West Virginia. Practicing Christian, white married man with a kid. The all-American sorta guy, y'know? The host snatches him up from his lifestyle and sticks him in Dearborn, Michigan, to live in the highest concentration of Muslims in America, to live in a household of Muslims, to learn and practice their ways.

The WHOLE first half of this show the guy whined and whined about "I'm not supposed to pray to another God, it's against my religion! *emoemoemocraaaaawlingiiiinmyyyskiiiin*" But then the show goes on to say that Jews, Muslims, and Christians DO pray to the same God, and where they differ is their idea of the prophet (Christians=Jesus, Muslims=Mohammad, Jews="*look at watch* He must've made a wrong turn in Albuquerque or something..."). So yeah... who's right here? The man or the narrator?

And reading Lena's post here, it's easily determined that she does not live in the South (uh, duh, I knew it anyway), because I've had multiple people personally try to convert me. I got dragged to see The Passion even. 'Least it was free... although I did catch some "unhappy" looks when I laughed at the part where the bird pecked that one dude's eye out. But, back to the point of this paragraph, I cannot STAND when people want to pressure their religion onto me. If I wanna do it, I'll do it on my own, trust me, I'm 17 years old and fully capable of making decisions without your opinions.

Sooo yeah. I have my doubts about Christianity, but I'll keep them to myself for now.

#110 Doopliss

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 12:28 AM

He didn't abolish the old rules. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (St. Matthew 5:17). The Law says that we are to take vengeance eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But it also says that we must love our neighbors as ourselves. Would such a Law permit us to take the legal vengeance? Jesus says that it would not. The Torah mentions the law of retribution for a reason, but that reason isn't that we ought to take retribution.

Yes, but in ancient times, God did punish people according to the bible, though now people say that God gives freedom to anyone and taht everyone ounish themselves because they want it to be that way because they don't follow god's path. So did god change his mind? He wouldn't be perfect them.

Actually, my interpretation of the Bible is based on the church fathers, the Protestant reformers, and the beliefs of the anabaptists. In other words: I have tradition on my side, and in the Christian religion, tradition is important. On the other hand, your belief that the Bible is fictional is nontraditional. You're welcome to that interpretation, but it is not sanctioned by Christianity. And if you argue based on your own interpretation of the Bible rather than ours, then you're not arguing Christianity anymore. If you want to present an opposing Christian viewpoint (such as Catholic theology), then it's possible to argue interpretations of the Bible. But using your own interpretation of the Bible to argue against Christianity serves no purpose other than to disprove the validity of your interpretation.

Yes, but you said that you didn't like people to misinterpret the bible, and many of the people with which you don't agree belong to other Christian churches, what gives yours more authority than theirs?

#111 Nevermind

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 02:26 AM

Actually, my interpretation of the Bible is based on the church fathers, the Protestant reformers, and the beliefs of the anabaptists. In other words: I have tradition on my side, and in the Christian religion, tradition is important. On the other hand, your belief that the Bible is fictional is nontraditional. You're welcome to that interpretation, but it is not sanctioned by Christianity. And if you argue based on your own interpretation of the Bible rather than ours, then you're not arguing Christianity anymore. If you want to present an opposing Christian viewpoint (such as Catholic theology), then it's possible to argue interpretations of the Bible. But using your own interpretation of the Bible to argue against Christianity serves no purpose other than to disprove the validity of your interpretation.



I agree with Doopliss on this one, arunma. Belonging to a church is not what makes you a Christian. To you, tradition is important. To me, the belief in, and following of both Jesus and God is what is important. Am I wrong because I am not confined to the stipulations of a denomination? Is my interpretation invalid?

#112 SOAP

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 07:15 AM

You have to remember that a day in God's time is 1000 of years in ours...so techincally if you read it correctly we are still in the 7th day of creation.


If that's true then we're SOL because God's still resting.

Though I don't find THAT hard to believe.

I think the reason Christianity appeals to people is that Forgiveness it's part of the core of it's teachings. And [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people find it hard to to forgive themselves. Forgiving others is easy. But forgiving yourself is hard. Because you know what you're thinking and you know you most likely do it again no matter how sorry you are. You can be forgiven by thousands of people---the Jesus fraking POPE can forgive you--and you'd still be kicking yourself over stuff you did ten or twenty years ago. And you'll continuing living in guilt and shame, trepeating the mistakes over and over in a continuous rut, making your life and the life of those asound you miserable. But if some higher being can forgive you, the belief alone makes it easier to forgive yourself and you can finally get up and move on with your life. Most religions don't offer that kind weight to be lifted off your shoulders so easily.

That alone is why I think Christianity is so popular.

Not because of spirituality or because it's "The Way, the Truth, and the Light." Many religions claim to be the right way and there are people who practice other religions that display more spirituality than any Christian has. Hell, I've seen agnostics more spititual then most Christians I've seen. Yeah sure there's [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of generally nice, cool Christians out there. But that's just because they're generally nice, cool people. You can find people like that, regardless of their beliefs. In fact, there's a [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of generally nice athiests. And I bet there's some really cool Satanists out there too, even if their beliefs are kinda zoinky. But I bet that still won't stop Christians from believing they're wrong. So why should it stop us from not believing in Christianity?

#113 Nevermind

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 07:27 AM

I think the reason Christianity appeals to people is that Forgiveness it's part of the core of it's teachings. And [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people find it hard to to forgive themselves. Forgiving others is easy. But forgiving yourself is hard. Because you know what you're thinking and you know you most likely do it again no matter how sorry you are. You can be forgiven by thousands of people---the Jesus fraking POPE can forgive you--and you'd still be kicking yourself over stuff you did ten or twenty years ago. And you'll continuing living in guilt and shame, trepeating the mistakes over and over in a continuous rut, making your life and the life of those asound you miserable. But if some higher being can forgive you, the belief alone makes it easier to forgive yourself and you can finally get up and move on with your life. Most religions don't offer that kind weight to be lifted off your shoulders so easily.


That's pretty damn true, when you think about it. Everyone wants to feel forgiven. Who better to look for forgiveness from than an all-powerful, omniescent being?

#114 SOAP

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 07:31 AM

Well my point is is that I think it's the belief alone that empowers them. There could be no God but that won't stop Christinaity from helping those who find it hard to cope otherwise.

#115 Nevermind

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 07:33 AM

Yeah. The human psyche can do amazing things to itself. It can work just like a placebo.

Of course I don't believe it's a placebo because I actually believe it IS real, but I certainly understand what you're saying.

#116 SOAP

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 07:41 AM

Yeah. If you think it works it works. You could believe in Cthulhu and that he'll forgive all your sins, and if that helps you stay out of a rut, then in your case your religion is is "The Truth, the Way, the Light."

#117 Nevermind

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 07:49 AM

That's true, H.P. Lovecraft could be one hell of a prophet. Despite a most certain doubt that Cthulu would forgive sins...ever....I do agree that if someone believes enough, that person can convince themselves that they are forgiven. The same sort of thing works in Christianity anyway. In the end it comes down to whether or not you believe you are forgiven anyway. To feel forgiven, well, you have to FEEL forgiven, which means convincing yourself. It is a given that you are pardoned, but if your mind is doubting your faith, then you don't exactly feel forgiven. Basically it all comes down to how much faith and belief you have in your religion.

#118 SOAP

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 07:58 AM

That's why I don't believe in any one religion. Any religion can achieve the same effect with differenent procedures involved. And if peopke had enough will power, they wouldn't need religion altogether (not say religions aren't neccessary though). Again, I think Chrisianity is so popular because it's one of the the the easiest religion to have. Not too much worked involved in trying to forgive yourself.

#119 Nevermind

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 08:02 AM

I dunno, one still feels a little uncomfortable with oneself. To really feel like you're on the okay, it takes [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of faith in something that you don't know is there or not, but something that you only believe is there.

#120 SOAP

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Posted 31 July 2005 - 09:26 AM

Or you can be just as sure of yourself believeing nothing's out there.




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