132 replies to this topic

[Masamune]

We said that straight guys can hate gays? Really, I missed that somewhere. Oh wait, look, we didn't. Haha, you lose.

[Nevermind]

What? That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was saying that why is it that people can see straights as hating gays, even come up for a word to define it, yet don't seriously consider the thought of gays hating straights?

And STILL with the rapper thing........Ugh.
Let's say I went on about how many women want me, and some gay guy said how many guys wanted him. So what if we're talking about different genders? We're being egotistical, not sporting our sexual preferences.

But the main point of liking gay people, but not gayness. Well, I dunno, it may be different in others, but I tend to like people for their attitudes and personalities. If you find it impossible to comprehend, well I cannot help you, but taking on the attitude that homosexuality is completely different from someone's personality may give you just that little boost you need to understand. If I dislike a gay person, it's because that I do not clash with them, or they have done something to offend me, or something like that. It is not because they are gay. I will dislike a straight person for the same reasons.






P.S. Happy birthday, Masamune

[Archaic Sage]

What? That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was saying that why is it that people can see straights as hating gays, even come up for a word to define it, yet don't seriously consider the thought of gays hating straights?

Like I said, it's no different from people saying that you've got to be white to be a racist. It's a minority view, well, that's what it's expected to be.

And STILL with the rapper thing........Ugh.
Let's say I went on about how many women want me, and some gay guy said how many guys wanted him. So what if we're talking about different genders? We're being egotistical, not sporting our sexual preferences.

There is nothing you can say that will change it. Having rappers (and I'm not saying this is an isolated event dedicated to rappers either, just so everyone knows), with their girls waving everything around is no different from a bloke in a pub saying how many birds he's screwed. It's boasting/showing his sexual preference.

But the main point of liking gay people, but not gayness. Well, I dunno, it may be different in others, but I tend to like people for their attitudes and personalities. If you find it impossible to comprehend, well I cannot help you, but taking on the attitude that homosexuality is completely different from someone's personality may give you just that little boost you need to understand. If I dislike a gay person, it's because that I do not clash with them, or they have done something to offend me, or something like that. It is not because they are gay. I will dislike a straight person for the same reasons.

But it's the whole hate the sin and not the sinner thing that I cannot get. I can understand that you can like someone's personality, but sexuality is part of their personality. Sure, you get 'straight gays' but they are still gay, it's still part of their make-up. It makes little sense to me. But I'm very open to straights/gays/bis/cross dressers/etc.

[Oberon Storm]

So, you don't want to be gay, so you don't like homosexuality, but you like or don't mind homosexuals? This is something that I have trouble understanding. How can you hate something but love it too?

I equate it to my ability to extremely dislike people in general but love individuals.

I do agree with him though. I fail to see how hip hop artists surounding themselves with half naked women is not flaunting their sexuality. Whether their message is "Hey! I'm straight!" or "Hey! I'm confident enough to have these women around me!" it is still flaunting their sexuality.

But I also don't completely understand the argument. In what way do homsexuals shove their homosexuality in anyones face other than those gay pride parades that no one really pays attention to anyway? Are we talking about the sterotypical flamboyant gay man? How is he flaunting his homosexuality? How is it any different then the captain of the football team that sees himself as the best thing since sliced bread and practically drips testosterone(sp?)? Are homosexual displays of affection blatant flaunting of homosexuality? Is that any different than heterosexual displays of affection?

I mean what exactly are we calling the blatant flaunting of homosexuality?

[Nevermind]

Good.....God....


Picture this. Two guys talking. One says "I screwed five people on the weekend", the other says "Oh yeah? I screwed seven! beat that!"
Are they gay or straight? Doesn't matter, cos the focus is not on their sexual preference.

If there is a view against a minority, those people that defend them, tend to get offended easily. Like when someone doesn't want like the idea of x on x and y on y they are a homophobe, but if someone doesn't like x on y, then well, duh, they're gay, of course they don't. I agree, it is not the way it should be, but it is.

I don't see the people I like as homosexual or straight. Someone doesn't need to be straight to be fun, or gay to funny, or gay to be wild and crazy, or straight to be friendly. You get me? Forget about them having sex altogether, and what do you have? A personality, whether the host is gay or straight.


And as for the rappers thing, yeah they are flaunting their sexuality, but I meant "sexual preference". My bad.

And flaunting? Well......Fab five....that's all I got to say.

[Oberon Storm]

Picture this. Two guys talking. One says "I screwed five people on the weekend", the other says "Oh yeah? I screwed seven! beat that!"
Are they gay or straight? Doesn't matter, cos the focus is not on their sexual preference.

But this is also a private conversation. It isn't comparable to flaunting to the whole world anything.

And as for the rappers thing, yeah they are flaunting their sexuality, but I meant "sexual preference". My bad.

But their sexual preference is a large part of their sexuality. In flaunting their sexuality they flaunt their preference.

And flaunting? Well......Fab five....that's all I got to say.

Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is more abouth fashion and style than the Fab 5's sexual preference.

[Nevermind]

Yeah, which is exactly why I chose it as an example, because the majority of the show consists of them flaunting themselves, especially the blonde one, whilst doing their job. Believe me, the network is not worried about whether or not they are doing their job, they are worried about making these guys get them ratings.

Put my example into a public scenario. Talking to everyone in the world, via video conference, on a top network. During prime time TV. Any difference? It was this example I was trying to use to explain my view of how these music videos work. The focus is not on the fact that it's women, the focus is on the fact that he has lots of them.

And I just have to say that there's as much signigicance in the whole Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses thing as there is in this. When they knock on someone's door to tell them about their religion, some want to listen, others don't. Simple. Religion is a large part of peoples' lives as well, and it governs their lifestyles just as much, if not moreso than their sexual preference. So why are people not persecuted for slamming the door in a Mormon's face?

[Archaic Sage]

Yeah, which is exactly why I chose it as an example, because the majority of the show consists of them flaunting themselves, especially the blonde one, whilst doing their job. Believe me, the network is not worried about whether or not they are doing their job, they are worried about making these guys get them ratings.

Which is no different from a rapper with about a million girls around him singing how he screwed 8 hoes, or whatever shit they sing about. :: isn't a rap fan ::.

Put my example into a public scenario. Talking to everyone in the world, via video conference, on a top network. During prime time TV. Any difference? It was this example I was trying to use to explain my view of how these music videos work. The focus is not on the fact that it's women, the focus is on the fact that he has lots of them.

That's too casual. That's a conversation between friends. I wouldn't go to my friends and say I screwed five girls last night. As they would know it's a girl. But with someone I don't know, and I was boasting, it would be I screwed five girls last night, so they know what my sexual preference is. No different from a gay guy in spandex in a parade (although, they are a much more public affair).

And I just have to say that there's as much signigicance in the whole Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses thing as there is in this. When they knock on someone's door to tell them about their religion, some want to listen, others don't. Simple. Religion is a large part of peoples' lives as well, and it governs their lifestyles just as much, if not moreso than their sexual preference. So why are people not persecuted for slamming the door in a Mormon's face?

Well, in some countries they are, lol.

Anyway, this is because they are coming to your home to irritate you, to convert you. If I was bi and knocked on your door, and try to convert you, you'd have every right to punch me in the face. But if I was in a gay parade, or simply chatting within my social group and you over heard, I'm not throwing it in your face.

[MK.]

Being gay is just a part of our lifestyle is America now and always has..

Where did you grow up at if you don't mind me asking?

This might have been true where you grew up, but in the south (Bible Belt), where I'm from, oh HELL no. There was maybe 1 openly gay person per 500 people or so. So, it really is a region thing, not just "all of America." The south is set in its ways of Christianity and family values... even if that does make us intolerant rednecks.

I'm just sayin what I've noticed from living there...

[DarkJuno]

...and I think this is officially Contro Fodder. Sorry if you mind, Jaina.

[Goose]

Back on Topic

It is possible to hate the sin, and not the sinner. I have really good friends, who are gay. I'm not gay. I dont hate these people because of their sexual preference. I have really good friends who go and have sex before they get married. I dont hate these people because they dont wait. I have really good freinds who arent Christian. I dont hate them because we dont share the same beliefs. I could go on and on.

[Korhend]

I can see both sides of the arguement. But generally have to agree with the poster if, for different reasons. When some people see thje word "bisexual" they see "BIsexual." and decide to get upset. I see just the last three syllables. All I read is the word "sexual". And to me at least, having any type of pride in that, whether Homosexual, Bisexual is the same as being proud of being heterosexual. I.E. Pointless. I don't see being sexuality a defining character feature, nor something entirely appropriate for a signature.
However I keep in mind that this is just my opinion, and someone might take equal offense to the fact that I display pride in Mudo here, and have, in the past, displayed my political veiws. Generally, someone who is truely worried about what someone else decides to put in their signature, needs something to worry about.

The strange thing about all of this is that its fine to be proud of being gay or black or asian or whatever but if you're proud of being straight or white you get called a homophobe or a racist.

Really, cause our town has St. Patrick's Day twice a year, and no one has ever called it racist.

[Dryth]

Hopefully I'm not treading into the quote war too much.

It's healthy to take pride in one's identity. Each individual evaluates the merits of their identity against different criteria. For some it involves sexuality, and I see nothing wrong with vocally expressing one's pride in such.

Lack of tact in expressing one's pride in identity is a separate issue. For example, "I boned five bitches yesterday" versus "I'm a sexually active individual." Crude is crude, independent of the greater subject matter. An independent issue from pride in oneself, signatures, or the other sort of pride.

People are more inclined to take pride in that which makes them distinct, and hence aspects of their identity that place them in a minority. Often they'll also take pride in those things that they feel identify them fundamentally good as well. I've seen people proclaiming their status as Christian, Italian, Floridian, ferret-owning, tsunami-donating, vegetarian, and having never smoked marijuana in their signatures. If it makes them proud I don't see any reason why they shouldn't put it up as some merit to their identity.

Personally I'm happy to see people putting more personal touch into their signature along such lines. In a perfect world online signatures would function as they were originally intended: Name, address, phone, role, company, etc. In the real world we have people putting in massive gaudy banners of badly photoshopped pop imagery and lengthy quotes that, being quotes, and this being the internet, don't need to go in signatures to be seen, and have little to do with their owner (no offense to anyone in particular: I have them turned off here anyway). Adding personal touches back is a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

It seems trivial to get annoyed over. In modern society we're already bombarded by so much identity detritus. We all model ourselves according to specific images then plaster ourselves with brand labels. Signatures seem like such a minor issue against, like, all the happy little encounters of daily life in reality.


(Aside: The confrontational side of me wants to put a pride icon in my signature. Not because I'm gay. Just to be confrontational. )

[MK.]

I think pride is overrated.

It seems like lots of groups, namely ethnic groups have their pride. I.E. Kiss me I'm Irish, or Black Power.

However, I do not feel connected to ANY ethnic group. I'm an Anglo Saxon Male. I just "am what I am."

I do feel connected to America, I am an American, and I am proud of that, but that's just pride in one's country. I'm "American" just because I was "born on a specific landmass."

If you want to be prideful be prideful of something like the A+ you got on your test, or the touchdown you scored... Why be prideful in something that a million other people "just are." Be unique and be proud of THAT.

Hopefully I'm not treading into the quote war too much.

It's healthy to take pride in one's identity. Each individual evaluates the merits of their identity against different criteria. For some it involves sexuality, and I see nothing wrong with vocally expressing one's pride in such.

Lack of tact in expressing one's pride in identity is a separate issue. For example, "I boned five bitches yesterday" versus "I'm a sexually active individual." Crude is crude, independent of the greater subject matter. An independent issue from pride in oneself, signatures, or the other sort of pride.

People are more inclined to take pride in that which makes them distinct, and hence aspects of their identity that place them in a minority. Often they'll also take pride in those things that they feel identify them fundamentally good as well. I've seen people proclaiming their status as Christian, Italian, Floridian, ferret-owning, tsunami-donating, vegetarian, and having never smoked marijuana in their signatures. If it makes them proud I don't see any reason why they shouldn't put it up as some merit to their identity.

Personally I'm happy to see people putting more personal touch into their signature along such lines. In a perfect world online signatures would function as they were originally intended: Name, address, phone, role, company, etc. In the real world we have people putting in massive gaudy banners of badly photoshopped pop imagery and lengthy quotes that, being quotes, and this being the internet, don't need to go in signatures to be seen, and have little to do with their owner (no offense to anyone in particular: I have them turned off here anyway). Adding personal touches back is a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

It seems trivial to get annoyed over. In modern society we're already bombarded by so much identity detritus. We all model ourselves according to specific images then plaster ourselves with brand labels. Signatures seem like such a minor issue against, like, all the happy little encounters of daily life in reality.


(Aside: The confrontational side of me wants to put a pride icon in my signature. Not because I'm gay. Just to be confrontational. )

[Nevermind]

Dude....dude...dude..

AS, you're just not comprehending my point at all, so...

I'm out.

*quietly shuts the door behind him*

[SOAP]

If having pride in something that is part of who you are gives you self-esteme then why should it matter? However, just to advertise your sexual preferences just to be spiteful is just retarded and that was what History was doing.

[MK.]

I think the problem is this:

We all have our core beliefs, or at least MOST humans do. However, my beliefs might differ from Joe's beliefs. My beliefs, are, of course the correct ones, but, good luck convincing Joe that, who is damned sure he is correct and doesn't care what I think.

And we then have the birth of every contraversal topic known to man...

Of course, if everyone would listen and obey me without question we'd live in a world of harmony... that and about 30% of the world's population would be exterminated :cool:

-MK

[SOAP]

MK, you just made the first intelligent post in this thread. Of course, you are wrong. My beliefs are correct. But of course you'll never believe that so I'm going to leave it at that.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I think pride is overrated.

Exactly. I don't take part in gay pride parades and I don't really feel any connection to them other than the fact that I'm gay and there are others like me.

I think it's all about image. With homosexuals being more accepted and more integrated than before (as in, they can now be who they want to be without being persecuted for the most part of it) the idea of being straight and being gay are slightly blurred.

The old fashioned masculinity is dying out.

Lines are being blurred and we're all trying to create an image for ourselves, an identity we can cling on to that separates straight from gay and gay from straight.

In the case of straight men, it's trying to act all macho, chugging beer, talking about how one gets laid, getting interested in hot cars and hot babes. In the case of gay men, it's pride and rainbow flags and shopping and dressing trendy.

In our new more global society, identity and ethnicity are becoming more and more blurred, so we cling to the stereotypes and try our best to distance ourselves by advertising our sexuality no matter what.

I think all of the things we see right now is a product of fear of loss of identity.

[Goose]

Wolf mentioned stereotypes in this, and I'm glad. I'm going to use the definintion of a stereotype that I gave today in a uni exam.

Stereotype = When somebody condenses something about a particular group of people till its so small, just a little detail, then proceeds to blow that little detail up into massive proportions to represent not just a small portion of the affected group, but the whole group of people. People cling to this stereotype because is saves them from challenging their beliefs. Its easy if your a straight guy to cling to the stereotype of beer chugging and womaninsing, because its a role that has been used for year, as is it is easy for gay man to take the opposite role.

Whats sad is when people use the stereotype to judge a whole group of people, even when they dont know the person.

Dont konw why i mientioned all this, but I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere.

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

However, just to advertise your sexual preferences just to be spiteful is just retarded and that was what History was doing.

It could be interpreuted that thats what Fizzbit was doing. I really dont get what the big deal about being gay or not is all about. Its someones personal choice and they shouldnt advertise it to the rest of the world. Im not saying they should be ashamed of it, they just dont need to go out of there way in telling the rest of the world about it.

[Korhend]

And just because somebody doesn't agree with you about the issue, then must be a homofphobe. Because I think it's unnatural, I must be a biggot.

Just as someone thinks someone's Untermensch, they must be a bigot.

[Alakhriveion]

And just because somebody doesn't agree with you about the issue, then must be a homophobe. Because I think it's unnatural, I must be a biggot.

Yeah, actually, you are. To go out of your way and ignore all reasonable science for the support of a biggoted theory? You have a better name for it?

I like the military's stand on it. "Don't ask, don't tell" is a little misleading. But bassically how it goes is this. As you don't do anything that might make them think your a homosexual, then they have no right to ask you(or investigate) officially or not.

Why is that a good thing? Why should your sexuality be any buisness of the military's at all?

History, if you really have such a hard time dealing with the fact that I'm open about my sexuality, please either talk to an administrator, or go into your user control panel, and disable signatures. That way you can browse threads easier knowing that you won't have to see rainbows in anyone's signature. But regardless of how much you complain about how it makes you feel uncomfortable, I'm not going to bend to anyone's will unless I am talked to by an administrator. As I have said before, the rainbows and icon have been in my signature for many months. Good luck getting anything done.

Calm down. His opinions are protected here.

[SOAP]

As opposed to recent wave lewd heterosexual conduct on TV too?

I don't know if I said this before but I don't care... try to see it from our prospective: You a gay guy who's constantly having heterosexuality thrown in his his face. It's in movies, in songs, and even day time TV. But you can't say "Turn off that song" or "Stop rubbing your sexuality in my face, it offends me." No, because it's normal to be straight and having it advertised everywhere is generally accepted so you have no choice but to suck it up and move on. But then when you decided to rock the rainbow, everyone starts ripping down throat like you've done the most heinous thing ever.

I remember back in high school, generally everyone knew I was gay by my senior year. I didn't go around telling no one or didn't advertise it but kids talk and my frirends can't hold no water. When I felt comfortable enough with who I was I decided to wear a rainbow necklace to school one day. EVERYONE got on my case about it. Everyone kept telling my to take it off and triried grabbing at it. One girl in fifth period came clear across the classroom and tried to yank it off. And she was one of my biggest supportors and was bi herself. And all this over a stupid necklace.

[arunma]

Glad to see that things around here don't change.

Just a friendly mod-alert to everyone!

[Nevermind]

Mario, the simple fact is that the media sees majority and minority. If it ever comes to there being more gay people than straight people, well then, I think we'll see a different agenda.

[SOAP]

More gay people than straight? You do realize how unrealistic that is? Gays aren't an ethnic group. We're not going to eventually take over the population like blacks and latinos are. Now society will could accept gays more but we're not going to become the majority any time soon. Freedom of choice and NATURE would not let it get that far no matter how tolerant society becomes.

And it's just not the media. I'm tired of hearing guys brag about all the girls they banged like that makes them a "real" man. And girls are just as guilty of this too. But yeah, I'm supposed to suck and take it or walk out the room. Then I hear someone bemoaning over a stupid sig or some necklace or just the way gay talks or acts that just bugs them but is not harming them in any way, it just pisses me off too no end! People who complain about stupid stuff like that really don't know what it's really like to have someone else sexuality shoved down your throat. Unless they're practically having sex in your face then shut up.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I dont have a problem with homosexuality, but the recent wave of homosexual shows on tv is getting kind of annoying.

Recent wave? I must be living with my head in the sand, because I have no idea what you're talking about. (That and I probably don't live in the same country as you). In every show I've seen that features a homosexual, they're just that, a homosexual, although I do realise they're rather camp. (That I believe is probably more down to the network and the show's producers themselves).

However, let's be fair.

And it's just not the media. I'm tired of hearing guys brag about all the girls they banged like that makes them a "real" man. And girls are just as guilty of this too.

I'm pretty tired of it too, and when I was with a gay friend I was tired of hearing how he managed to get into all sorts of sexual or sexually charged situations, as well. The thing I'm more sick and tired of is, my straight house mate bringing girls over and shagging them, coz I can hear it. I can fricking hear it, despite the fact that our rooms are separated by an entire corridor!

As a lonely virgin who has never kissed anybody, these things are insanely irritating! >.<