117 replies to this topic

[Alakhriveion]

I guess I'm the one who has to say this: This topic is a nice idea but we already have two other threads that go deep into this subject. We don't need a third. While it would be nice to have thread just for this kid of discussion but from my personal experience when you have members like me that are gay on a debate forum, nearly every other topic turns into a gay debate sooner or later. It's like a curse or something.

It's been like these as long as I can remember. We have the magical ability to turn any discussion in to Gay Marriage or the Iraq War in less than two pages. Social Security? Gay Marriage! Alternative Penal Systems? Iraq War! Iraq War? Gay Marriage! Gay Marriage? Iraq War! Neopets? The Marriage of Gay Iraqis!

[SOAP]

Yeah, the idea of this was to allow people to vent their feelings in here, and leave my marriage thread to be about just that, marriage. It wont stop people, but its worth a try.

The debate going on in the other thread was a bit one sided, so I thought that if I could get everybody to put their opinons in here, then it could be a bit more balanced.

Well I appreciate it but as long as we have stupid people who don't respect the decisions of others, threads are going to turn into a gay debate somehow or another. Besides, the whole topic of homosexuality has become so complex and intermingled with everything from marriage to war to even abortion that it's best to debate parts of it as they come along in whatever debates they suddenly appear in.

[SOAP]

I guess I might as well...

1. What do you define as Homosexuality?
Sexual attraction between two members of the same sex. That's the universial definition.

2. Do you believe in homosexual unions or gay marriage?
I don't really believe in any sort of marriage. It's just a waste of time. But legal-wise, gay civil unions should be allowed and recognized by all states. Gay marriage should be up to the church to decide.

3. Do you think Homosexuality is a Sin?
Yes but so is lying, cheating, stealing and killing (and by that I mean all killing, including in self defense, war, or to as a penalty for those who've killed others). And yet these things still happen on a daily basis and are somehow still justified by God. So what's the big deal if two people of the same sex want get down? That's up between them and God.

4. Do you believe that being Homosexual is genetic?
I doubt it. It probably either has to do with hormones in the womb or something. Either way, a person can change no matter how they were born. Not that they should but if they really wanted to change then how they were born isn't really an excuse not to change.

5. Do you believe Gay adoption is morally right?
Yes. Gay children need homes too.

6. Do you believe that being Homosexual is unnatural?
It is if you're not naturally gay.

Edit: I think pretending to like the opposite sex just because your church, family, friends and society in general want you to is far worse than a sincere attraction for the same sex instead. If you're gay but pretend you're not only lying to yourself and the people you're with, you're lying to God and that, IMHO, is the worst sin of all because it shatters your relationship with God.

[Dai Grepher]

[quote=Son of Jor-El] You're in support of a bill that directly contradicts the Constitution. For the first time we will be restricting the actions of a minority. The Constitution was created to protect the minority. I have no hard eveidence, as I am sure you do not have any yourself, but marriage wasn't just created with the emergence of the three big religions. I'm pretty sure the Bill of Rights said somewhere about the protection of rights not specificaly mentioned. Oh yeah, the Ninth.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."  

They do have the right to marry. Pass this amendment and you might as well throw out the entire Constitution.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: We will not be restricting any actions of any minority because that minority has never been able to take those actions. Also, the Constitution says “certain rights”, which apply only to rights that are currently held.
This definition of marriage will be a protection of rights that are held by millions of married couples around the world, not the denial of rights of a fraction of a small percentage of people involved in unnatural unions. Homosexuals want the marriage title for two reasons. One, to be placed on the same level as a moral and respectable married couple, in order to force the lifestyle into society, and the second is to reap the same financial benefits that all married couples have.

What will happen if homosexual marriages are legalized? Homosexuals will go out and get married. This will cause half of the homosexual population, which wants to be married, to be covered under the insurance plan of the other half. This means that insurance premiums will skyrocket. Employers will have to either fire workers or lower wages to compensate for this massive expense. Also, the insurance companies will charge everyone else more money to cover the extra costs that the lifestyle requires, such as medicine for HIV/AIDS. This will directly affect others, and force many people to pay for a lifestyle that they do not approve of. That is a direct infringement on other people’s rights.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] What a heap of ****.[/quote]

So you’re saying that it is impossible for a married man to control, suppress, or ignore his natural impulses to covet a woman other than his wife?

[quote=Son of Jor-El] No. They raise them to be more tolerant. Tolerance is the moral example set.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Not when they raise them to be tolerant of that which is immoral and sinful. Besides, they don’t raise them to be tolerant they raise them to be acceptant.


[quote=Son of Jor-El] You didn't answer or prove anything here.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I just proved that attraction is a choice.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] Not homosexuality's fault.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Not entirely, true. Much of it is the fault of the lack of parental leadership and morality in the home. However, homosexuality is part of the problem, not the solution.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] You're over simplifying it.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I am stating fact.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] OK. So tolerance and acceptance is bad? I guess it's safe to bring back segragation.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Tolerance and acceptance of that which is wrong, immoral, and sinful is wrong. It is safe to bring back morality and strong righteous family values.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] You still have not demonstrated how this happens. This is also conspiracy theory crap.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: This is fact. MTV reaches many young adults and children. They, and stations and programs like them are forcing the lifestyle into their homes and implementing the message that it is ok to live that lifestyle and it is right to accept it. Moreover, they are implementing the message that if you are not tolerant or don’t like the lifestyle, then you are a hateful person that is against unity and peace, and that your disapproval makes life harder for them and for those that support them.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] Rape is performing sexual relations with someone against their will.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Though I didn’t ask you, I will now allow you to answer that question. However, that doesn’t answer the question of why rape should be hated.

[quote name='Son of Jor-El] To ride a bike into on coming traffic not only puts yourself in danger' date=' it puts the other motorists in danger. You don't like homosexuality because some invisible man in the sky says its bad.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Being acceptant of homosexuality is like riding a bike into oncoming traffic. Society will destroy itself if it accepts that lifestyle.
I do not like sin because the creator of all of existence does not like sin.

[quote name='Duracell] So...you're saying that provided we stone anyone who's gay to death' date=' our civilisation can last for three thousand years?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I am not saying that. I’m not sure why you even said that to be honest.
Anyway, if our society embraces God once again, and turns away from all that is immoral and sinful, then our civilization will last for thousands of years, unless God chooses to come back before then.

[quote name='Duracell] The Romans fell because their Empire was over-extended' date=' isolated elites were formed that were removed from the people, the rule of law began to break down as the law was twisted to serve those elites, and the Emperors became more concerned with fending off competitors for the throne than with ensuring there was a throne at all. Show me a logical causal link between that and homosexuality, and maybe your point would stand.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Romans were indulgent in sinful pleasures at that time, and lived for the flesh rather than for the future. Their mindset was corrupted, which corrupted that civilization to the point where they no longer stood as one or for anything. That is how Constantine was able to destroy Rome and move its people to the east.

>>Selena: Homosexual couples can be just as loving and caring as Hetero couples, and be just as kind and moral.

>>Dai Grepher: I agree. However, that doesn't mean that what they have is not sinful, wrong, and unnatural.

[quote name='Duracell]What? Where does that start making sense? Where can you say that two people who' date=' by your own admission, aren't doing any harm to themselves or others, are doing something wrong?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I admitted nothing of the sort. I agreed that homosexual couples can be just as loving, caring, kind and moral as anyone else, but that doesn’t make homosexuality any of those things. Those qualities stem from their human compassion and their conscience, not their choice of how to please their flesh.

[quote name='Duracell] Live and let live. If a man wants to marry a woman' date=' or another man, or a man and a woman - why should you worry about it when it doesn't have any impact on anyone besides them?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: It impacts everything around them. It affects their neighbors, the children that will see them demonstrate such acts in public and be deceived to think that such acts are normal, it will affect the economy through insurance policies, it will affect their families and friends, and it will poison the moral standing and values of our society.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Actually' date=' that's not adultery, it's fornication.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: That is correct. I meant to say fornication.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] You SAID you don't deny physical matters are important. What if' date=' physically, you're looking for a man?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Any man that is seeking those qualities in another man is looking in the wrong direction. That man should turn from that path and choose to seek those qualities in that which is right.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] I suppose you could ask them to marry a woman anyway' date=' but then you're asking all homosexuals to do something you admit is beyond your abilities- and those of everyone I've ever met.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I never said that looking past physical appearances was beyond my ability. I said that I could compromise on any preference or conviction that I choose. I choose not to, just as homosexuals choose not to. However, they choose not to because they hold physical pleasure above morality.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Secondly' date=' too bad. Klansmen can stand against integration, but it has to happen anyway. Cannibals can stand for cannibalism, but it's still not going to be legal. You can stand against Equal Marriage, but that has to happen, too.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Actually, no it doesn’t. Every one of the 11 states that had a proposal to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman had the bill passed. It looks like homosexual marriage will never be made possible because there are so many that stand against it, and that also includes a percentage of the homosexual population. All that is keeping it from being a national law are all the liberals that will oppose a constructional amendment. Their reason for doing so is because they want homosexuals to vote for them, but not because they believe homosexuality is right.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Actually' date=' it was the Church that did it. Sure, it could have been burning books and banning science, but one of the big changes they made was banning the gay stuff. Once they lightened up on that, we had the enlightenment. Gosh, it's almost as though tolerance and development go hand in hand.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: The Greek empire fell because they were not a Godly country. Science was held back in the Middle Ages because of corrupt men that used a distorted version of God’s word to rule over the people.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] OK' date=' first off, if you'd READ the freakin' Bible, Sodom and Gomorrah wern't destroyed for homosexuality. They were destroyed for inhospitability, incest, attempted gang rape, accomplished gang rape, blasphemy, more incest and rape, still more with the rape, and also rape. I mean, from the story, rape was like baseball for these people. But I digress. How will homosexuality reduce the gravity of sex? How are they being tricked in to thinking they're gay?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed because of the great sinfulness of the people there, and homosexuality was one of those sins. God also said that he would spare the cities if but ten righteous were found there. Lot was the only one, so God destroyed them after Lot had escaped. No one left was righteous, and that includes the homosexuals. Just because God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra for other sins doesn’t mean that homosexuality was not one of them. It contributed to the great evil of those cities.

[quote=Alakhriveion] Your point? So's killing. I don't see you getting in to such a flap over the Death Penalty.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Actually, the death penalty is a just punishment for murder. Being against just punishment for murderers is being in favor of the kind of killing that the Bible condemns.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Pork's also a sin (Same book as the ban on gay sex)' date=' but I don't see you boycotting whoever the hell makes Jell-O.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Eating pork is not a sin. Jesus made that clear.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] also I believe crustations are a sin to eat also' date=' for they are dirty or something like that....im not to sure but i thought i heard someone say something about shrimp once.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Shellfish were also considered unclean in those days.

[quote=Kawaii Emiko] what about if she changed her path in life and is serving God? Would you still see her unfit? Thats really judgemental if you did[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I would see her as a new person if she were to become saved after that. Jesus has forgiven her, so I would as well.

[quote=Mario Jr] Fearing something when immenient danger is present is totally different then fearing or hating people who you just don't undestand at all.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I understand them perfectly. The only difference between the issue and my analogy is the length of time between the path chosen and the destructive element.
I stated that in case anyone here had any shortsightedness about the affects and dangers of the homosexual lifestyle.

[quote=Mario Jr] That's when fear turns into phobia. Trying to rationalize it by coming up with excuses like "well homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle filled with rape and drugs" is just a defense mechanism people like you use because they can't cope with gay people around them.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: True. However, that is not the case in this discussion. The dangers that I have foreseen are real, possible, and to be rationally feared.
Not riding into oncoming traffic is a rational fear. Not wanting to leave the house because you’ll be too close to the street is an irrational fear. I do not fear being around homosexuals. I see them as human beings just as I see all other people. I just don’t approve of their choice.

[quote name='Mario Jr] It would be the same if white person feared black people because they've seen gang fights where [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of black men and women died killing each other for no reason at all. Just because there were cases where some gays did some very bad' date=' irresonsible stuff doesn't it's the same all around.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: It’s not the raping little boys or spreading AIDS that makes me hate homosexuality. It is about those people choosing to break God’s law and will for mankind and sinning against Him that makes me hate homosexuality. This is because I know that not all homosexuals have done the crimes and atrocities that I have heard about, and because I know that straight people can just as easily choose to commit the very same actions. I hate the act of homosexuality because it is unnatural, sinful, and immoral. That doesn’t mean that I hate those that choose to do that act.
Irrational hatred or fear would be to hate or fear those people.

[quote name='Mario Jr] Rape' date=' drug abuse, unsafe sex. These things can happen to anyone, gay and straight, male and female, black and white, young and old.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I agree, as you can see above.

[quote name='Mario Jr] Another defense mechanism people use to deal with homosexuality is projection. People feel uncomfortable around gay people. They don't know why they feel the way they do. Instead of looking for answers within they cast their blame on gay people. "Well they're nasty' date=' filthy people. It's their fault I feel uncomfortable. They're the problem. Not me."[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Actually, it is true that it is their fault. Acting like that around others isn’t normal, and displaying such mannerisms or affections is unnatural. People aren’t comfortable around other people that act unnaturally, be it homosexual, obscene, flagrant, unstable, or insane. It is an instinctive cautiousness, and it is natural that people would hate feeling that way.

[quote name='Mario Jr] You' date=' and people like you, might feel you must save innocent people from getting sucked into what you think is a dangerous lifestyle by passing these anti-Gay bills and voting against Gay Marriage. But all y'all are doing is making everyone's lives needlessly miserable.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: How? Homosexuals have the same rights as anyone else. They just can’t have the title and benefits of marriage. The law allows them to write wills so that they can leave their possessions to their partner if they should die. They are allowed to live together. They are allowed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What right is being denied of them?

[Dai Grepher]

1. What do you define as Homosexuality?

2. Do you believe in homosexual unions or gay marriage?

3.  Do you think Homosexuality is a Sin?

4. Do you believe that being Homosexual is genetic?

5. Do you believe Gay adoption is morally right?

6. Do you believe that being Homosexual is unnatural?

Dai Grepher:
1. The choice to lust for, have physical affection, or sexual experience with another person of the same gender.
2. No. To make them so would say that all marriages that exist today are meaningless. Also, making the so would destroy the economy through massive insurance premium increases.
3. Yes. The Bible defines it as that.
4. No. People have chosen to become homosexual, and some have chosen to stop being homosexual.
5. No. People that choose a lifestyle that cannot produce a child should not be allowed to raise one.
6. Yes. Nature dictates that a man and woman are needed to reproduce.

[Coltxdoom]

My favorite topic.

Yes, people choose to be minorities and to be ridiculed and discriminated all the time. Yep, people sure choose to be gay.

*runs out hte door before saying more*

[Wanchimaera]

Yes, people choose to be minorities and to be ridiculed and discriminated all the time. Yep, people sure choose to be gay.

Are you ruling out the fact that some people have chosen that path? People do things all the time that don't make sense.

[Oberon Storm]

Dai Grepher: We will not be restricting any actions` of any minority because that minority has never been able to take those actions. Also, the Constitution says “certain rights”, which apply only to rights that are currently held.
This definition of marriage will be a protection of rights that are held by millions of married couples around the world, not the denial of rights of a fraction of a small percentage of people involved in unnatural unions. Homosexuals want the marriage title for two reasons. One, to be placed on the same level as a moral and respectable married couple, in order to force the lifestyle into society, and the second is to reap the same financial benefits that all married couples have.

Do you even know what the Constution is? What it says? It is Constituionally WRONG that this minority has never been alowed to take these actions. When it comes to law and the Constitution, the Bible doesn't matter. The Constitution doesn't allow for faith to be made into policy. It is your faith that deems homosexuality to be immoral and unnatural. You cannot give me one practical reason to ban homosexual marriage. All that stuff about the downfall of society is bullshit. Your fear that homosexuals are trying to force homosexuality on you are unfounded and irrational. And this protection of the rights of married couples? What rights? All the right they have is to joint file, get social security, and decide when their spouse get disconnected from a feeding tube. What right do they have to deny this civil right to others? And the Constitution does NOT apply ONLY to those rights already held. May I point out blacks and women. They were not always granted the right to vote or own property by the Constitution. This was wrong and it was fixed.

What will happen if homosexual marriages are legalized? Homosexuals will go out and get married. This will cause half of the homosexual population, which wants to be married, to be covered under the insurance plan of the other half. This means that insurance premiums will skyrocket. Employers will have to either fire workers or lower wages to compensate for this massive expense. Also, the insurance companies will charge everyone else more money to cover the extra costs that the lifestyle requires, such as medicine for HIV/AIDS. This will directly affect others, and force many people to pay for a lifestyle that they do not approve of. That is a direct infringement on other people’s rights.

Homosexuals can already get life insurance. That is how they get around not getting married. They name their partner as the beneficiary. And they already get health insurance. Cannot be denied health insurance because you are gay. Oh yeah, HIV/AIDS is growing fastest among heterosexuals.

So you’re saying that it is impossible for a married man to control, suppress, or ignore his natural impulses to covet a woman other than his wife?

No. I am saying you argument was a heap of shit, rather stinky shit at that, and I'm ignoring it.

Not when they raise them to be tolerant of that which is immoral and sinful. Besides, they don’t raise them to be tolerant they raise them to be acceptant.

Again. It is your own faith that says it is immoral and sinful. You have no right to force that on others. Even if they do raise them to be acceptant, so what? Jesus hung out with people considered to be lowlifes. I guess he was wrong to do it.

I just proved that attraction is a choice.

No you didn't. All you did was tell me what you want in a girl. And attraction is a chemical reaction. Not a choice.

Not entirely, true. Much of it is the fault of the lack of parental leadership and morality in the home. However, homosexuality is part of the problem, not the solution.

Yes lack of parental leadership is a cause. Not homosexuality. Like Alak said, blame MTV.

I am stating fact.

No you're not. One word. Puberty. Besides, children today are given unrealistic expectations. They are expected to essentially have a full time job, extracurricular activities, and social lives. They are told that they should be happy most of the time. So they are stressed out and unhappy and think that there is something wrong with them. Because they are expected to act like adults during some activities but not others they are confused. Which is why sex is so hard for them to understand when they are young. They are not mature enough to deal with it but are told they have to learn to be adults. We don't give them the tools to learn. But homosexuality isn't part of the problem. Despite how vocal that subset of society can be they are only a small fraction of the actual population. For young people it is still women, usually involved in heterosexual relations, that find themselves victimized through sex. Homosexuals are victimized because of it. Besides. you never here a kid say, my parents sucked so I sleep with men. You here they sucked so I do drugs, but not they sucked so I sleep with men. Where do you get your facts? I want studies that show that there is a link between parenting and homosexuality.

Tolerance and acceptance of that which is wrong, immoral, and sinful is wrong. It is safe to bring back morality and strong righteous family values.

Again. Your faith. Not mine.

MTV reaches many young adults and children. They, and stations and programs like them are forcing the lifestyle into their homes and implementing the message that it is ok to live that lifestyle and it is right to accept it. Moreover, they are implementing the message that if you are not tolerant or don’t like the lifestyle, then you are a hateful person that is against unity and peace, and that your disapproval makes life harder for them and for those that support them.

They are not forcing anything. But yes they are telling us it is OK. Yes they are telling us if you are not tolerant you are hateful. Yes if you are hateful you are against unity and peace and not your disapproval but your wish to relegate them to second class citizenship makes life hard for them.

Though I didn’t ask you, I will now allow you to answer that question. However, that doesn’t answer the question of why rape should be hated.

Uh. Yes it does. What part of "against their will" did you not understand.

Being acceptant of homosexuality is like riding a bike into oncoming traffic. Society will destroy itself if it accepts that lifestyle.

Again, Unfounded and irrational fear.

I do not like sin because the creator of all of existence does not like sin.

That's what I said.

It’s not the raping little boys or spreading AIDS that makes me hate homosexuality.

I only responded in this post to your responses to me because everything else of your last post is religious in nature. I am arguing from a legal and Constitutional standpoint. But this caught my attention because this is the second time I have noticed you want to attribute the AIDS problem to homosexuality. Homosexuality did NOT bring about AIDS.

[Alakhriveion]

Dai Grepher: Eating pork is not a sin. Jesus made that clear.

Well, if it goes for pork, it goes for the gay stuff, too.

[Alakhriveion]

Are you ruling out the fact that some people have chosen that path? People do things all the time that don't make sense.

This one's a little harder to choose than being a cultist (Goddamn Hare Krishnas). I mean, I don't think I could switch like that. If there are people who do, they must have such willpower that you'd have to at least respect them for that.

[Archaic Sage]

1. What do you define as Homosexuality?

A person who has and wants to have sex with a member of their own gender, or someone who has sexual attraction and wants the sexual gratification of someone from their own gender.

2. Do you believe in homosexual unions or gay marriage?

Of course. Gays have the right of tax cuts as well.

3. Do you think Homosexuality is a Sin?

No, and to hate someone is a sin anyway. Not that I'm religious.

4. Do you believe that being Homosexual is genetic?

Difficult question really. There are studies showing that homosexuality is genetic. But I think that's crap honestly. I mean, the study in question, was done by an Italian bloke, who's name has passed me. Anyway, he found homosexual brothers, which were both twins. What a selected sample. That surely cannot be generalised. But I do believe that homosexuality is something you are born with. But I do not believe that it is something that can be passed down through the family.

5. Do you believe Gay adoption is morally right?

I think they deserve the right for kids. But we've never seen the effects of growing up in a homosexual environment. We need to look into this with experiments to determine whether the children would be OK in that environment.

6. Do you believe that being Homosexual is unnatural?

Homosexual is as natural as breathing.

[SOAP]

Is there any way we can graft the last part of the marriage debate into this thread?

[Alakhriveion]

Yes. Hold on. Nobody post in either 'til I'm done.

[SOAP]

Dai Grepher: I understand them perfectly. The only difference between the issue and my analogy is the length of time between the path chosen and the destructive element.
I stated that in case anyone here had any shortsightedness about the affects and dangers of the homosexual lifestyle.

I will not deny their are innate problems with a homosexual lifestyle itself. My biggest problems being gay didn't come from bigots and anti-gays but from other gays and just being gay in general. However, if you're careful and are responsible with your actions and your body you'll be alright. That goes to both gays and straights.

Dai Grepher: True. However, that is not the case in this discussion. The dangers that I have foreseen are real, possible, and to be rationally feared.
Not riding into oncoming traffic is a rational fear. Not wanting to leave the house because you’ll be too close to the street is an irrational fear. I do not fear being around homosexuals. I see them as human beings just as I see all other people. I just don’t approve of their choice.

While I don't agree with that I can't ask for anymore from you than that.

Dai Grepher: It’s not the raping little boys or spreading AIDS that makes me hate homosexuality. It is about those people choosing to break God’s law and will for mankind and sinning against Him that makes me hate homosexuality. This is because I know that not all homosexuals have done the crimes and atrocities that I have heard about, and because I know that straight people can just as easily choose to commit the very same actions. I hate the act of homosexuality because it is unnatural, sinful, and immoral. That doesn’t mean that I hate those that choose to do that act.
Irrational hatred or fear would be to hate or fear those people.

So your reasons against homosexuality are simply religious?

Dai Grepher: Actually, it is true that it is their fault. Acting like that around others isn’t normal, and displaying such mannerisms or affections is unnatural. People aren’t comfortable around other people that act unnaturally, be it homosexual, obscene, flagrant, unstable, or insane. It is an instinctive cautiousness, and it is natural that people would hate feeling that way.

So I guess it's black people's fault that they make white people feel uncomfortable too. Acting the way they do, being all loud and those baggy clothes and grabbing their privates. The nerve....

Dai Grepher: How? Homosexuals have the same rights as anyone else. They just can’t have the title and benefits of marriage. The law allows them to write wills so that they can leave their possessions to their partner if they should die. They are allowed to live together. They are allowed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What right is being denied of them?

Not until recently, adult gays weren't even allowed to have consensual sex in Texas because anal sex was illegal. Of course only anal sex between two men was illegal. A man and woman can have all the anal they wanted. Just not two men. I sang when that law was abolished. I sang till the cows came home.

As for marriage, civil unions I thought were okay but now there are activist seeking out to take that away from us to. If they're succesful gay couples wouldn't be recognized legally. If one of them should die, their partner would get diddly sqaut.

[SOAP]

That was weird. I thought I posted this... Sorry about that though Alak. Didn't see your post.

[SOAP]

[ignore this]

[Wanchimaera]

This one's a little harder to choose than being a cultist (Goddamn Hare Krishnas). I mean, I don't think I could switch like that. If there are people who do, they must have such willpower that you'd have to at least respect them for that.

I can't say 100% that I could either, but I still can't rule out the idea that someone could choose.

[Emiko]

Not until recently, adult gays weren't even allowed to have consensual sex in Texas because anal sex was illegal. Of course only anal sex between two men was illegal. A man and woman can have all the anal they wanted. Just not two men. I sang when that law was abolished. I sang till the cows came home.

<.< thats a picture i really didnt want to see in my lil head. Although according to Sue (i forget her whole name...she has a show called 'Talk Sex' or something like that) Like girls, men have a a-spot (g-spot for girls) in which when touched and proaded gives them ultimate pleasure.....and it's up the bumhole....

[Oberon Storm]

The prostate?

[Alakhriveion]

Exactly.

[Dai Grepher]

I will not deny their are innate problems with a homosexual lifestyle itself. My biggest problems being gay didn't come from bigots and anti-gays but from other gays and just being gay in general.

Dai Grepher: What do you mean, that the problems you have stem from the lifestyle more than people that are against it?

However, if you're careful and are responsible with your actions and your body you'll be alright. That goes to both gays and straights.

Dai Grepher: The body is temporary. It is a mere shell that houses our souls through this part of existence. They are imperfect and fragile. Every body will break down and cease to function eventually. What does it matter if it is tomorrow or fifty years from now? What matters is what is next. Next, there is a judgment for all those that have not accepted Christ. Even Christians will be judged on what they haven't done for God.
Being safe and responsible to protect the body from harm means nothing if you do everything to poison the soul.

So your reasons against homosexuality are simply religious?

Dai Grepher: Of course they are. I can have my reasoning about nature and how procreation works, but ultimately that means nothing because that reasoning is coming from a fallible man. I have no right to say what mankind can and cannot do because I am a part of mankind. Nothing makes my opinion right over another person's opinion. The only one that has true authority and ultimate judgment in this world is God.

So I guess it's black people's fault that they make white people feel uncomfortable too. Acting the way they do, being all loud and those baggy clothes and grabbing their privates. The nerve....

Dai Grepher: If they actually do act that way then yes, it is their fault. Like I said, being obscene makes others uncomfortable.
If a black person were acting normally and a white person felt uncomfortable just because he or she was around a black person, then it would be the white person's problem.

Not until recently, adult gays weren't even allowed to have consensual sex in Texas because anal sex was illegal. Of course only anal sex between two men was illegal. A man and woman can have all the anal they wanted. Just not two men. I sang when that law was abolished. I sang till the cows came home.

Dai Grepher: Actually, as I understood, it was illegal between men and women as well, as it was or perhaps still is in the military. Also, that was a state law, not a national law. The people of that state and of that time wanted that law.

As for marriage, civil unions I thought were okay but now there are activist seeking out to take that away from us to. If they're succesful gay couples wouldn't be recognized legally. If one of them should die, their partner would get diddly sqaut.

Dai Grepher: That is why wills exist.

I think what some of you fail to acknowledge is that there actually is a very strong, thought-out argument against homosexuality. I've noticed that people- both liberals and conservatives- tend to feel that the opposing side somehow has failed to even think about their opinion. It's a dangerous mindset, and one I encounter everyday in my overly-liberal school.

Dai Grepher: I know that the opposing side has heard and understands my opinion. I also know that they have chosen to disagree with it. I understand that their opinions and arguments are convincing, which is why I continue to state mine. I also know that, in this case, the opposing side is wrong, and that if their argument should somehow win the mindset of the country, our nation will fall into moral decay.

That having been said, the case for homosexuality is also pretty strong. I'm not entirely sure which is the right one, but I have to say that both arguments are rather convincing.

Dai Grepher: This is why moral people must take a stand against it. This nation is already on a downward spiral thanks to the detriment of stupidity in the youth and school systems. If corrupt and immoral lifestyles are accepted, this nation will die.

I can't say 100% that I could either, but I still can't rule out the idea that someone could choose.

Dai Grepher: While there is some supposed evidence that there is a gay gene, which has never been submitted, conveniently, there is proof that some people choose to live the lifestyle and to stop living it. I wouldn't attribute this to will power though. I think that most people that choose it and then stop are just people that are looking for fulfillment in the wrong places. Those that choose both are just those trying to please their flesh and lustful desires.

<.< thats a picture i really didnt want to see in my lil head. Although according to Sue (i forget her whole name...she has a show called 'Talk Sex' or something like that) Like girls, men have a a-spot (g-spot for girls) in which when touched and proaded gives them ultimate pleasure.....and it's up the bumhole....

Dai Grepher: I don't believe that. The spot of pleasure is in their minds.

[Oberon Storm]

If a black person were acting normally and a white person felt uncomfortable just because he or she was around a black person, then it would be the white person's problem.

What do you consider normal? Being white?

That is why wills exist.

And when they die young? Before they even think about a will?

I also know that, in this case, the opposing side is wrong, and that if their argument should somehow win the mindset of the country, our nation will fall into moral decay.

Insurance, ignoring the biology of it and claiming attraction is a choice, the Constitution, HIV/AIDS. You have been wrong on all these points and you still fail to provide any evidence to support your theory of the "nation will die".

I don't believe that. The spot of pleasure is in their minds.

Close. That might be where it ends up, but it begins with that ball of nerves in ones ass.

[Zythe]

Here's a question to MJ, which kind of sex do you prefer, straight or gay? Is your lifestyle choice a spiritual one or one based on gratification?

[Alakhriveion]

Dai Grepher: Actually, as I understood, it was illegal between men and women as well, as it was or perhaps still is in the military. Also, that was a state law, not a national law. The people of that state and of that time wanted that law.

Too bad for them.

Dai Grepher: While there is some supposed evidence that there is a gay gene, which has never been submitted, conveniently, there is proof that some people choose to live the lifestyle and to stop living it. I wouldn't attribute this to will power though. I think that most people that choose it and then stop are just people that are looking for fulfillment in the wrong places. Those that choose both are just those trying to please their flesh and lustful desires.

Well, if they're just satisfying lust, you have to admit it's not a choice. You don't decide what you're attracted too.

[Wanchimaera]

This could go back to the age old Psychology debate of nature vs. nurture. It's a really interesting subject, and this current homosexual movement has revived it.

[Xeres]

Alright. So let's not discuss marriage. Let's just discuss homosexuality. Since there doesn't seem to be very many ACTUAL homosexual people commenting in a thread about them (minus the very first few posts), maybe we're getting a little bit of a lopsided view. It's like a room of men talking about childbirth.

So here I be, female, and I like girls. Hate me, tolerate me, or perhaps you could... Maybe... Learn from me? Ask me? Because the only rational belief is an informed belief... Not a blind and hateful position.

I have no fear of God, nor do I have any specific belief in a singular God. I was born Catholic, raised Catholic, I currently attend a Catholic High School. However, I consider myself Buddhist, as it is their teachings I process and follow. I do believe in a higher power, be it humankind's own collective consiousness, or some divinity that NO ONE can understand, let alone interpret. I have such faith that I will not let other people tell me my lifestyle is an abomination... For they truly know nothing other than what has been regurgitated to them. They are not a higher power, and I find them intolerant and ignorant for thinking they can interpret what a truly divine source MIGHT say.

I suppose though, that if I died and went to 'Hell', the joke would be on me. But I have no fear of that. For I live true to what I feel, and it would be a sin worse than eternal torment to deny that. I could go on a lengthy diatribe, rebutting all of the religious points that have been brought up... But I believe I am truly informed on this issue. I know both sides. I have witnessed both sides. I have a personal bias to those that hate blindly and are the TRUE mindless sheep, for those people preach hate and ignorance, and are the reason I have been irrationally hated for what I am, and the scars that I JUST had removed on my body. I do not hate them, though. I'll never hate, and perhaps that makes me a better Christian in the end. This I don't know for sure, though, because I will be truthful and admit I know nothing of what any higher power thinks.

Hm. I'm not certain if what I wrote matters at all. Unfortunately. Though I'll just put my perspective forward on homosexual attraction... On MY attraction. Allow me to share a story with you.

I was only 10 when I first encountered the person who would affirm my sexual preference for me. In my gifted class, this one female struck me as no one else had, or ever has. Just seeing her, listening to her. I never even spoke to her... But for 2 years, I fell for this person, and never truly understood what it meant. Then, they were gone. Stopped attending the class, and it would be 2 years before I'd see them again, and remember. Gender was not an issue in my attraction, I didn't care that she was female. She was beautiful, she still is beautiful. Her mind, soul and appearance all appeal to me on a level I didn't think I could comprehend at my age. Gender was an afterthought. When I finally did start speaking to this person, it merely reinforced what I felt.

What happened after that... Really doesn't matter. Tale of heartbreak, eternal longing, yadda yadda yadda. What matters is that basis of attraction. Homosexual attraction. No 'gay agenda' none of that 'make queers the dominating race and somehow lead to the end of all civilization'... Though, gay people really aren't that bad. Gay gang fights? Drive-bys? Gay nazis? Gay terrorists? What is it that gay people do that's so wrong? This I am unaware of, and I'd like to be enlightened. Though none of those oblique 'Yeah, we're going to use gays as the scapegoat for society's ills!' ...That argument is tedious and much too drawn out for my liking.

There. Now, hate me. I don't care anymore.

[Korhend]

Gay nazis?

:nnsweat: well Hitler's sexuality is a long, disgusting and seperate debate.

[Chikara Nadir]

Although I can't say I have anything to add that hasn't likely been said already...I just want to applaud Xeres for the strength she just had to speak her mind in the middle of all this.

Edit: Oh...and I like to live by the teaching I got from first grade- "Hate is a bad word". Hatred of any kind is intolerable. You never hear of other animals hating (and don't dare make this into a 'we have higher minds than animals' argument, cause that would just make us sound worse than other animals in this situation) - either they accept something, ignore it, or destroy it, and as far as I know it is usually because instinct says that they must do so to survive. Hating someone, disliking them, or feeling uncomfortable about them as individuals and/or their preferences, whether it be a matter of their race, sexual preference, ethnic background, history, opinion, habits, religion- it will in no way effect your survival rate.

Yes, knowing the difference between yourself and your enemy is good in war, although too many wars in history have been started specifically because of differences in appearance and mind. But this is not about war- this can be about whether or not to accept your own neighbours, sometimes your own family.

Say "the Bible tells us to hate gays" if you want, and sound intolerant. The Bible also tells you not to have sex premaritally, says that women must always wear headcoverings, and tells us that eating ham or pork is a terrible sin. It's hypocritical to judge someone because you feel that a certain interpretation of one book tells you to, while ignoring your own transgressions.

I see hatred itself is the worst 'sin' I can imagine, and I honestly believe that if there is a hell, it is those who hate people for being what they are who will go there first, not those who think in a way or appear to be something that is not streamline popular culture.