117 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Dai Grepher: What do you mean, that the problems you have stem from the lifestyle more than people that are against it?

They stem from other gay people that I've hung out with and found to be very fake with no real personality whatsoever. I'm fine with my lifestyle, though it's not what I would call it since being gay doesn't make up my entire life. That's the problem I've had with some of my "so-called" gay friends. Many of them seem so absorbed with the fact that they're gay that let it rule ther lives and personaly I think whoever lets whatever they're sexually attracted to define their whole being, their whole reason for living, is a very sad person. Gay or straight.

Dai Grepher: The body is temporary. It is a mere shell that houses our souls through this part of existence. They are imperfect and fragile. Every body will break down and cease to function eventually. What does it matter if it is tomorrow or fifty years from now? What matters is what is next. Next, there is a judgment for all those that have not accepted Christ. Even Christians will be judged on what they haven't done for God.
Being safe and responsible to protect the body from harm means nothing if you do everything to poison the soul.

Yeah I think hatred and fear do a whole lot more poisoning than being gay.

Dai Grepher: Of course they are. I can have my reasoning about nature and how procreation works, but ultimately that means nothing because that reasoning is coming from a fallible man. I have no right to say what mankind can and cannot do because I am a part of mankind. Nothing makes my opinion right over another person's opinion. The only one that has true authority and ultimate judgment in this world is God.

Fair enough. Then leave that judgement up to him, her, it, them.

Dai Grepher: If they actually do act that way then yes, it is their fault. Like I said, being obscene makes others uncomfortable.
If a black person were acting normally and a white person felt uncomfortable just because he or she was around a black person, then it would be the white person's problem

So to be normal you have to a straight white person. Alright, I get it now.

Dai Grepher: Actually, as I understood, it was illegal between men and women as well, as it was or perhaps still is in the military. Also, that was a state law, not a national law. The people of that state and of that time wanted that law.

And now it was abolished. I'm happy now.

Dai Grepher: That is why wills exist.

Wills can be argued. And besides, just living together doesn't mean as much as being legally joined together.

Dai Grepher: I know that the opposing side has heard and understands my opinion. I also know that they have chosen to disagree with it. I understand that their opinions and arguments are convincing, which is why I continue to state mine. I also know that, in this case, the opposing side is wrong, and that if their argument should somehow win the mindset of the country, our nation will fall into moral decay.

Oh right. Heaven forbid society should progress past the dark ages.

Dai Grepher: This is why moral people must take a stand against it. This nation is already on a downward spiral thanks to the detriment of stupidity in the youth and school systems. If corrupt and immoral lifestyles are accepted, this nation will die.

The problem with calling lifestyles immoral is that not everyone has the same set of morals. I bet [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of other countries think our country is immoral since we allow our women to vote and be in positions of great power.

Dai Grepher: While there is some supposed evidence that there is a gay gene, which has never been submitted, conveniently, there is proof that some people choose to live the lifestyle and to stop living it. I wouldn't attribute this to will power though. I think that most people that choose it and then stop are just people that are looking for fulfillment in the wrong places. Those that choose both are just those trying to please their flesh and lustful desires.

Oh yes, because gay people are incapable love and are purely beings of lust for the flesh. They're total sex hounds who can't keep their hands to themselves. Yup.<_<

Dai Grepher: I don't believe that. The spot of pleasure is in their minds.

It's proven by scientific fact that a man--regardless of orienation--can be stimulated that way.

[Dai Grepher]

[quote=Son of Jor-El] What do you consider normal? Being white?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Being courteous, appropriate, respectful, and well mannered. I don’t appreciate your insinuation that I base my argument on race.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] And when they die young? Before they even think about a will?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Their fault. My point was to prove that they have the right to leave their partner what they leave behind. I did that.

[quote name='Son of Jor-El] Close. That might be where it ends up' date=' but it begins with that ball of nerves in ones ass.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, it begins in one’s desire to perform unnatural and vile acts.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Well' date=' if they're just satisfying lust, you have to admit it's not a choice. You don't decide what you're attracted too.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: First, you are misunderstanding what lust is, and second, you only posted a statement, not a fact.
Lust is sexual desire, not an attraction to a person. People can choose to abstain from lust. Homosexuals should not lust after what they choose to be attracted to, just as I should not lust after women.

[quote name='Xeres] So here I be' date=' female, and I like girls. Hate me, tolerate me, or perhaps you could... Maybe... Learn from me? Ask me? Because the only rational belief is an informed belief... Not a blind and hateful position.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Very well.
1. Did you choose this, or do you feel you were created this way?
2. How old were you when you realized this? (Answer 10 years)
a. Did you have concept of love or sexuality at this age?
3. Did anything influence this realization?
I will await your reply, examine the answers, and perhaps ask more questions about them.

[quote name='Xeres] I have no fear of God' date=' nor do I have any specific belief in a singular God.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: So you have no fear of God because you do not believe He exists?

[quote name='Xeres] I was born Catholic' date=' raised Catholic, I currently attend a Catholic High School. However, I consider myself Buddhist, as it is their teachings I process and follow.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Why do you follow it? Do you know that it is a belief that was created by men?

[quote name='Xeres] I do believe in a higher power' date=' be it humankind's own collective consiousness, or some divinity that NO ONE can understand, let alone interpret. I have such faith that I will not let other people tell me my lifestyle is an abomination... For they truly know nothing other than what has been regurgitated to them. They are not a higher power, and I find them intolerant and ignorant for thinking they can interpret what a truly divine source MIGHT say.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: The non-religious arguments against homosexuality are quite logical and wholesome. The lifestyle is inherently dangerous to the mind and body through ideals of promiscuity and the spread of diseases. Many people do find it repulsive, and that is a natural feeling. Some of the people that do think there is something wrong with the lifestyle think so for logical reasons. Are his or her feelings and thoughts less important than someone who lives the lifestyle?

[quote name='Xeres] I suppose though' date=' that if I died and went to 'Hell', the joke would be on me. But I have no fear of that. For I live true to what I feel, and it would be a sin worse than eternal torment to deny that.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, you do not fear Hell because you think that it is a joke. If you don’t believe in God, then how can you believe in sin? How can you say that diverging from a path that you think is right is a sin if there is no authority to determine what is sin and what is right?
You need to realize that Hell is real, and that it awaits all those that have sinned and have not been forgiven by Jesus Christ. Sin is the worst element in this existence, and Hell is how God deals with sinners that reject salvation from it. Hell is a terrible place. It is the Lake of Fire. Its flames are as eternal as they are intense. It is engulfing and excruciating. It is never-ending and never consuming. That is only the physical aspect of Hell. The mental aspect is probably just as worse. The worst nightmares are amplified millions of times over. Every fear and insecurity is set loose to scratch and rip at the psyche. Then comes the reminder that this is how it will be for eternity and the more painful reminder that salvation was always obtainable. It was a free gift that was being handed to the lost, and if they had just accepted it, the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, then they could have been spared from the torments of Hell.

[quote name='Xeres] I could go on a lengthy diatribe' date=' rebutting all of the religious points that have been brought up... But I believe I am truly informed on this issue. I know both sides. I have witnessed both sides. I have a personal bias to those that hate blindly and are the TRUE mindless sheep, for those people preach hate and ignorance, and are the reason I have been irrationally hated for what I am, and the scars that I JUST had removed on my body. I do not hate them, though. I'll never hate, and perhaps that makes me a better Christian in the end.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: People that hate others are probably not Christian, just as people that live sinful lifestyles probably aren’t Christian. Besides, didn’t you just say that you are a Buddhist?

[quote name='Xeres] This I don't know for sure' date=' though, because I will be truthful and admit I know nothing of what any higher power thinks.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Then you should pray to Jesus Christ and ask for salvation. That is how I was able to obtain a personal relationship with Him and with God through the Holy Spirit.
First, you must realize that you are a sinner, just as everyone is, and you must realize that Jesus Christ is the only one that can save you from your sins. Next, pray to Jesus, tell him that you know this, and then ask Him to come into your life and save you from your sins. Ask Him to become your savior and cleanse your heart and soul from sin. If you do this, then from that point on you will be saved and the Holy Spirit will be with you always. You’ll also be able to speak directly to God through prayer and through the Holy Spirit, and when you die or are called up in the rapture, whichever comes first, then you will go to Heaven and spend eternity in God’s presence.
If you have any questions, please ask. I would love to talk more about this with you. If you need help praying, I can pray with you. You can even send me a private message if you do not feel comfortable talking about it here.

[quote name='Xeres] I was only 10 when I first encountered the person who would affirm my sexual preference for me. In my gifted class' date=' this one female struck me as no one else had, or ever has. Just seeing her, listening to her. I never even spoke to her... But for 2 years, I fell for this person, and never truly understood what it meant. Then, they were gone. Stopped attending the class, and it would be 2 years before I'd see them again, and remember. Gender was not an issue in my attraction, I didn't care that she was female. She was beautiful, she still is beautiful. Her mind, soul and appearance all appeal to me on a level I didn't think I could comprehend at my age. Gender was an afterthought. When I finally did start speaking to this person, it merely reinforced what I felt.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Which was what? That you looked up to her? Respected her intelligence? Idolized her? Liked her personality? Thought she was beautiful? There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, there is nothing wrong with you loving her. However, when that love crosses the line into the physical aspects regarding gender, then it becomes wrong. You said yourself that gender was not an issue then. You were attracted to the qualities of her character. That is perfectly normal. Many women love to be around other women that have intelligence and strong characters. Coveting her body and lusting for her is when it becomes a sin.

[quote=Xeres] What matters is that basis of attraction. Homosexual attraction.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Wait. Firstly, did you feel physically attracted to other girls or just this special one?

[quote=Xeres] No 'gay agenda' none of that 'make queers the dominating race and somehow lead to the end of all civilization'...[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Perhaps not then. That doesn’t mean that the homosexual agenda did not reinforce that initial attraction through confusion and justification tactics. Since that day, has anything influenced you toward or away from it?

[quote name='Xeres] Though' date=' gay people really aren't that bad. Gay gang fights? Drive-bys? Gay nazis? Gay terrorists? What is it that gay people do that's so wrong?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I have heard many news stories and reports on news stations and websites as well as personal stories about gangs of men that abduct younger men and rape them at a designated location. It has also happened to some that were in the military. I’ve read a report on two homosexual men abducting a young teenage boy and doing the most unspeakable things to him, ultimately killing him from the sexual acts alone. I’ve hear of some homosexuals that are victims of HIV AIDS leaving their used drug needles in public places and motels so that others accidentally stick themselves with them and contract the virus. Those sound like gangs, hate filled people, and terrorists.
However, I don’t attribute these to homosexuality because I know that anyone can choose to do those things just as anyone can choose to be homosexual. If I were to say that all homosexuals are like the ones that I have heard of in news reports and are incapable of choosing to become moral, I would be making a horrible generalization, and an incorrect one.
Remember though, it is incorrect for you to make the generalization that homosexuals are kind, caring, and compassionate. That is the homosexual agenda speaking. I would also like you to note that with some of the stories that I have read and looked up some news stations tried to cover the story up or tried to overshadow it with other reports. This is because the homosexual agenda does not want people to know about these stories, but they will bring everyone’s attention to stories consisting of two southerners that murder a gay person. They will put stations under pressure to reject shows that poke fun at their lifestyle, but demand shows that feature homosexual men reforming straight men into dressing as they do to be televised. They’ll also support shows that promote the lifestyle and portray it as something that is harmless and should be accepted. Why? To change society into what they want it to be.

[quote name='Xeres] There. Now' date=' hate me. I don't care anymore.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I do not hate you.

[quote name='Chikara Nadir] Edit: Oh...and I like to live by the teaching I got from first grade- "Hate is a bad word". Hatred of any kind is intolerable. You never hear of other animals hating (and don't dare make this into a 'we have higher minds than animals' argument' date=' cause that would just make us sound worse than other animals in this situation) - either they accept something, ignore it, or destroy it, and as far as I know it is usually because instinct says that they must do so to survive.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Well first of all, animals cannot talk. Even if they could, secondly, one would say that he hates how the alpha male in his group has authority over him and how much he wishes he had the strength to kill him and take over leadership.
Also, humans are not animals. We are smarter than animals. We are not controlled by instinct. If you think we are animals and that the instinct to kill to survive pardons animals, then what gives you the right to say that people that kill other people are wrong? Isn’t hate an instinct? With your logic, how do you tell a person who hates homosexuals, that he or she is wrong for doing so?

[quote name='Chikara Nadir] Hating someone' date=' disliking them, or feeling uncomfortable about them as individuals and/or their preferences, whether it be a matter of their race, sexual preference, ethnic background, history, opinion, habits, religion- it will in no way effect your survival rate.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Actually, doesn’t homosexuality limit the reproduction of human life? So technically, it does affect human survival rate. Also, are you saying someone who is uncomfortable around another that appears or acts menacing is wrong for fearing for his or her own live even when that fear stems from the other individual’s actions and appearance?
Also, disliking someone because of who they are is perfectly normal, as long as you aren’t rude or vulgar to them. If I dislike someone’s personality then it’s my problem. I like to deal with that kind of problem by not conversing with that person. It is ludicrous to suggest that people are wrong for disliking some people.

[quote name='Chikara Nadir] Yes' date=' knowing the difference between yourself and your enemy is good in war, although too many wars in history have been started specifically because of differences in appearance and mind. But this is not about war- this can be about whether or not to accept your own neighbours, sometimes your own family.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: They can be accepted as neighbors, family, or as people, but their choice to engage in homosexual acts should never be accepted.

[quote name='Chikara Nadir] Say "the Bible tells us to hate gays" if you want' date=' and sound intolerant.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I won’t do that because the Bible does not tell us to hate homosexuals.

[quote name='Chikara Nadir] The Bible also tells you not to have sex premaritally' date=' says that women must always wear headcoverings, and tells us that eating ham or pork is a terrible sin.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: You have no idea what you’re talking about. I suggest you actually read the Bible first before telling someone who actually has read it and studied it what it says.

[quote name='Chikara Nadir] It's hypocritical to judge someone because you feel that a certain interpretation of one book tells you to' date=' while ignoring your own transgressions.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I judge no one. That book is the word of God. He is the judge because he is the creator and master of everything.

[quote name='Chikara Nadir] I see hatred itself is the worst 'sin' I can imagine' date=' and I honestly believe that if there is a hell, it is those who hate people for being what they are who will go there first, not those who think in a way or appear to be something that is not streamline popular culture.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Hatred isn’t a sin. Hatred of another person is a sin.

[quote name='Mario Jr] They stem from other gay people that I've hung out with and found to be very fake with no real personality whatsoever. I'm fine with my lifestyle' date=' though it's not what I would call it since being gay doesn't make up my entire life. That's the problem I've had with some of my "so-called" gay friends. Many of them seem so absorbed with the fcat thta they're gya that let it rule ther lives and personality I think whoever lets whatever they're sexually attracted to define their whole being, their whole reason for living, is a very sad person. Gay or straight.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: So you admit that the homosexual lifestyle has inherent and irregular problems and complications?

[quote=Mario Jr] Yeah I think hatred and fear do a whole lot more poisoning than being gay.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Fear is a natural safety response, I doubt that it could be classified as sin. Hatred of other people is a sin as is homosexuality. So on God’s scale, they are equally as poisoning and condemning.

[quote name='Mario Jr] Fair enough. Then leave that judgement up to him' date=' her, it, them.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I am leaving it up to Him.

[quote name='Mario Jr] So to be normal you have to a straight white person. Alright' date=' I get it now.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Being courteous, appropriate, respectful, and well mannered.

[quote=Mario Jr] And now it was abolished. I'm happy now.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Fine, but don’t use it as a claim that homosexuals are being oppressed or denied rights. They are not being denied anything that they didn’t already have.

[quote name='Mario Jr] Will can be argued. And besides' date=' just living together doesn't mean as much as being legally joined together.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: They can be argued in homosexual relationships just as they can be argued in heterosexual relation ships. That doesn’t mean that the outcome can’t be in favor of the proper beneficiary.
Why doesn’t living together mean as much? Shouldn’t love be more than enough? What importance can the title of marriage possibly have that makes a homosexual relationship more than what it is? Acceptance and the benefits. That’s it. That is what they want. They want their lifestyle to be held to the same level as a traditional and moral one. It has nothing to do with their supposed love for one another.

[quote=Mario Jr] Oh right. Heaven forbid society should progress past the dark ages.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: More like into the dark ages.

[quote=Mario Jr] The problem with calling lifestyles immoral is that not everyone has the same set of morals. I bet [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of other countries think our country is immoral since we allow our women to vote and be in positions of great power.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Like I said. It doesn’t matter what mankind dictates as being moral or immoral. Only God can do that.
Theology aside, it is obvious that women having the right to vote is right. Anyone that has something against that has no argument to support that ideal.

[quote name='Mario Jr] Oh yes' date=' because gay people are incapable love and are purely beings of lust for the flesh. They're total sex hounds who can't keep their hands to themselves. Yup.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: They are capable of love and compassion for others. It’s just that they choose to direct those feelings to that which is unnatural. Lust and satisfying the flesh is the basis of all homosexual relationships. Otherwise, why not choose to love the qualities of someone of the opposite sex?

[quote=Mario Jr] It's proven by scientific fact that a man--regardless of orienation--can be stimulated that way.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: A man can be stimulated by heroine as well. Does that make it natural? Does that make it healthy? Does that make it right?
Just because those nerves can feel sensations from that side of the body doesn’t mean that they’re supposed to.

[Alakhriveion]

Dai Grepher: First, you are misunderstanding what lust is, and second, you only posted a statement, not a fact.
Lust is sexual desire, not an attraction to a person. People can choose to abstain from lust. Homosexuals should not lust after what they choose to be attracted to, just as I should not lust after women.

What, then is the difference? Lust and physical attraction are one and the same. It's also not something you can fake, as it's completely internal.

Dai Grepher: Why do you follow it? Do you know that it is a belief that was created by men?

As is everything.

Dai Grepher: The non-religious arguments against homosexuality are quite logical and wholesome. The lifestyle is inherently dangerous to the mind and body through ideals of promiscuity and the spread of diseases. Many people do find it repulsive, and that is a natural feeling. Some of the people that do think there is something wrong with the lifestyle think so for logical reasons. Are his or her feelings and thoughts less important than someone who lives the lifestyle?

This doesn't follow. Not all homosexuals are promiscuous, just as not all heterosexuals are, and diseases are moved easily with any kind of sex- or on a toilet seat.

Dai Grepher: You have no idea what you’re talking about. I suggest you actually read the Bible first before telling someone who actually has read it and studied it what it says.

Last I checked, DG, you hadn't studied it, either. Prohibitions on homosexuality are part of the same set of laws you say don't apply when it means you can't have Skittles.

Dai Grepher: A man can be stimulated by heroine as well. Does that make it natural? Does that make it healthy? Does that make it right?
Just because those nerves can feel sensations from that side of the body doesn’t mean that they’re supposed to.

Natural? Of course. Healthy? Well, they do it in hospitals, but no. Right? I don't think so, but I'm no authority on the subject. Still herion and anal Sex are pretty different. Herion, for example, kills you, and anal sex doesn't.

[Oberon Storm]

No, it begins in one’s desire to perform unnatural and vile acts.

You know what? I'll take you over human anatomy later. Now would be going completely off topic.

The lifestyle is inherently dangerous to the mind and body through ideals of promiscuity and the spread of diseases.

Once again. Homosexuality did not creat or spread HIV/AIDS. Good ol' fashion sex did. Stop placing the blame on homosexuals.

Some of the people that do think there is something wrong with the lifestyle think so for logical reasons.

Not so much. At least none of the reasons you have given.

Perhaps not then. That doesn’t mean that the homosexual agenda did not reinforce that initial attraction through confusion and justification tactics.

Once again, provide evidence of this so called "homosexual agenda". Otherwise I ask you to stop or I'll just refering to the oppression of homosexuals as the Christian agenda and put it in just as sinister a light.

Remember though, it is incorrect for you to make the generalization that homosexuals are kind, caring, and compassionate. That is the homosexual agenda speaking.

What the hell? So homosexualls are all a bunch of mean, uncaring assholes?

I would also like you to note that with some of the stories that I have read and looked up some news stations tried to cover the story up or tried to overshadow it with other reports. This is because the homosexual agenda does not want people to know about these stories, but they will bring everyone’s attention to stories consisting of two southerners that murder a gay person. They will put stations under pressure to reject shows that poke fun at their lifestyle, but demand shows that feature homosexual men reforming straight men into dressing as they do to be televised. They’ll also support shows that promote the lifestyle and portray it as something that is harmless and should be accepted. Why? To change society into what they want it to be.

Please provide links to anything you have read regard these cover ups. And would it make you feel any better if it was women that showed men how to dress more fashionably? Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is not about making everyone gay. It is about fashion. Plain and simple.

They can be accepted as neighbors, family, or as people, but their choice to engage in homosexual acts should never be accepted.

Abd you claim to not want to oppress or hate these people?

Fine, but don’t use it as a claim that homosexuals are being oppressed or denied rights. They are not being denied anything that they didn’t already have.

No, they are being denied things that should never have been denied.

[Zythe]

I'm straight but I'd like to poke my head in and state my opinion. Dai Grepher, reread your own posts - you come across as a total biggot.

[Emiko]

Herion, for example, kills you, and anal sex doesn't.

*giggles* That reminds me of a show that was on Discovery Health about wierd things doctors pulled out of people's bum hole..

trophies, pop bottles.....etc (Emi didnt actully watch it although she wanted to....someone told her about the wierd things...

people actully put live animals up there

note they were all guys since [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of girls view it as a exit only.

anyways, now back to the topic on hand....you know people will debate on this topic about if homosexuality is right or wrong for the next millinum...or until someone does something about it. The thing is we have people of both sides from the debate on this forum. Dai Grepher you can argue until your blue in the face about why homosexuality is wrong...but when it comes down to it 50% of the people on this forum might be on your side but they will stick to the side of the other 50% because they dont want to judge there dicission. Like myself, I totally agree with you that homosexuality is a sin according to what it says in the bible "Men who lie with Men will not inheirit the kingdom" but you know what, it's not my choice about what they do. And the people on this forum are awesome and nice about it. But when someone tries to inforce their opinion about what is right and wrong they end up being an ass hole who gets on everyone's nerves.
I agree with Chik, Xere's is an outstanding person for standing up for what she believes. By the way, I dont believe in Hell, but I believe in God, does that make me a bad person? I do believe in Heaven...but I dont believe everyone will go their when they die. I dont believe in the immortal soul, does that make me a bad person?
I married a guy who doesnt share my beliefs, i fornicated with him for seven months before I chose to live my life for God, I repented and I believe God forgave me.
If someone asks me what I believe I will tell them, but I dont shove my thoughts down their throats telling them that they are wrong. Does that make me a bad person? I believe God is a loving God, who doesnt want anyone to be destroyed, but to attain everylasting life, does that make me a bad person?
If, God is gonna destroy everyone who is homosexual, without reading thier hearts, wouldnt that go against EVERYTHING the bible says about God being a loving God?

Maybe, the reason why people give up on believeing in God is because they are sick of everyone saying: "That's wrong" "No that's wrong"

Im taking it that you are a very religious person....but do you really know what you believe? or do you believe what you are told to believe by your parents or preacher?

[SOAP]

I'm straight but I'd like to poke my head in and state my opinion. Dai Grepher, reread your own posts - you come across as a total biggot.

Well I wouldn't go that far. I think that he just has really naive beliefs about gays when he in fact he doesn't even know the first thing about them. He also doesn't seem to know what tolerance is. Tolerance doesn't mean anything goes. Just because we allow things to change in our society doesn't mean our values will go down the drain. In Tolerance, a fair middle ground should always be drawn. Not too liberal. Not to confined either. If that middle ground is obscured and society swings too far in either direction, then, yes, society WILL collapse.

[Wanchimaera]

Even if you believe that homosexuality is a sin, you have to realize that it's not the only sin out there. I personally can't bring myself to condone such behavior, but pointing the finger at the homosexual community fits the message of pulling the splinter from your brother's eye ignoring the log in yours. I've got my own struggles and shortcomings. I am not in a position to judge.

People are always going to do what gives them pleasure regardless of any known consequence.

[Archaic Sage]

Actually, I've been following this debate. And to me, he also comes across as a bigot. He also comes across as a religious fanatic. But then again, I do not meet a lot of Christians, or many homophobic people.

[Oberon Storm]

note they were all guys since [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of girls view it as a exit only.

You might be surprised.

[Emiko]

You might be surprised.

hey i did say [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] XP

[SOAP]

Dai Grepher: So you admit that the homosexual lifestyle has inherent and irregular problems and complications?

Being straight isn't all that great either. Any kind of lifestyle has it's up's and down's and they vary from from person to person, society to society. Most of the inherent problems in homosexuality comes from the fact it was once done in secrecy and with some gays it still is. Obviously any lifestyle that's done in secrecy can lead up to dangerous--drugs, rape, aids. However, lately it's been brought into the light and the problems are getting less and less.

Dai Grepher: Fear is a natural safety response, I doubt that it could be classified as sin. Hatred of other people is a sin as is homosexuality. So on God’s scale, they are equally as poisoning and condemning.

And isn't love a natural response to? Why can it only be lust or confusion?

Dai Grepher: I am leaving it up to Him.

Good. Then shut up. Let His Word speak for itself.

Dai Grepher: Being courteous, appropriate, respectful, and well mannered.

I don't see what being gay has to do with not being any of those things. I've known gays that are courteous, appropriate, respectful, and well mannered. Aside from my gay sex life, or lackthereof really, I'm so polite, quiet and mild-mannered girls can't believe I'm actually gay. So I don't know what it is about gays you find obscene. If by obscene you mean, being loud, flamboyant, and basically advertising your whole sex life to the world, then yes, I'd agree with you. That crap gets on my nerves too. They're way too many gays like that, unfortunately, where I'm from. I hate when gays embrace the very stereotype that has caused our kind to suffer ridicule for many years. Needless to say, most of my friend's are straight and/or deeply religious. If by obscene, you mean gays kissing and holding hands in public then all I can say is... grow up! Unless their kids around, asking gays not openly express their affection--especially when straight couples do the same stuff--is just plain bigotry.

Dai Grepher: Fine, but don’t use it as a claim that homosexuals are being oppressed or denied rights. They are not being denied anything that they didn’t already have.

How about the right to live their life without someone shoving their beliefs down their throats. You think it's obscene how gays act, well it's obscene to us to have religious folks contantly calling them immoral, sinful, and abominations against God. Try walking a mile in our shoes. Imagine how you'd feel if you're a ten-year-old kid, and all your life people keep calling you all those things? Imagine how you'd feel when you got older, and you've been brainwashed into thinking that God could never love a faggot like you. Well that was me. I've finally came to terms with who I am and where I stand with God. Why can't you. Why can't you just let us live?

Dai Grepher: They can be argued in homosexual relationships just as they can be argued in heterosexual relation ships. That doesn’t mean that the outcome can’t be in favor of the proper beneficiary.
Why doesn’t living together mean as much? Shouldn’t love be more than enough? What importance can the title of marriage possibly have that makes a homosexual relationship more than what it is? Acceptance and the benefits. That’s it. That is what they want. They want their lifestyle to be held to the same level as a traditional and moral one. It has nothing to do with their supposed love for one another.

Last time I checked, roomates ≠ a loving couple.

Dai Grepher: More like into the dark ages.

Yes, because Tolerance, Acceptance, and Progress can only cast our society back into the shadows.:s:

Dai Grepher: Like I said. It doesn’t matter what mankind dictates as being moral or immoral. Only God can do that.
Theology aside, it is obvious that women having the right to vote is right. Anyone that has something against that has no argument to support that ideal.

Dai Grepher: They are capable of love and compassion for others. It’s just that they choose to direct those feelings to that which is unnatural. Lust and satisfying the flesh is the basis of all homosexual relationships. Otherwise, why not choose to love the qualities of someone of the opposite sex?

And theology aside, there's no real arguement against homosexuality either. You claim that homosexuality is wrong because it's just a physical attraction. But then you say the only way to have a meaningful relationship is if there's a man and woman, thus boiling relationships down to what's in their pants as opposed to what's in their hearts. At least in a gay couple they can look past gentilia and recognize what's solely in their hearts. It is not a physicla attraction so much as it's an emotional attraction. The gentilias might not match but their hearts do and that's all that matters. You might think it's wrong and you have every right to believe so. You can claim how God backs you up in your opinions but at the end of the day, they're just your opinions. And quite frankly, we're tired of hearing them.

Dai Grepher: A man can be stimulated by heroine as well. Does that make it natural? Does that make it healthy? Does that make it right?
Just because those nerves can feel sensations from that side of the body doesn’t mean that they’re supposed to.

OKay, heroine comes from outside the human body. The male G-spot is part of the male anatomy. If God did not want it to be stimulated that way then why would it be there? God does not make mistakes.

[Dryth]

I can't think that Dai Grepher could represent anything more than a troll. If only for it having all the empathic capacity and discourse continuity of Mark V. Shaney.

Troll or not, the views it expresses are homophobic in the same way that many people's views were once racist. This has been brought up. It attempts to dodge the accusation. It does not confront it. It sets a standard for humanity that implicitly excludes gays. It challenges homosexual identity in the same way black identity was challenged under segregation.

I'm sure it will deny this. It would then be advised to open a history book.

Though on the subject of books, there's only one that matters. It (the person, not the book) contradicts itself enough in the course of discourse to dodge around the subject of it being a prejudiced bigot, and then it ducks behind the dogma. Wonderful. Again, history's a fun learning resource.

I'm sure it will enjoy the next half-century. Social progress and equality and all that.


On the subject of homosexuality in general, it's about loving whom you love. When people are truly in love, it's not something to rationally rail against. Enough people have trouble finding true love these days to be told that the love they do feel is morally, biblically, or logically unsound. I've already found my own (heterosexual) love, so it would be petty for me to question it in others.

[Xeres]

Dai Grepher: Very well.
1. Did you choose this, or do you feel you were created this way?
2. How old were you when you realized this? (Answer 10 years)
   a. Did you have concept of love or sexuality at this age?
3. Did anything influence this realization?
I will await your reply, examine the answers, and perhaps ask more questions about them.

1. I feel that I have always had a certain affinity for those of the same gender. Though, to be fair, I've never decided love for someone based on gender. Gender has always been an afterthought. I'm getting off-track. No, I don't believe I 'chose' to be this way. I would not choose something which creates such a social stigma, and such hate and violence towards my person.
2. Yes, 10 years was when I first affirmed that I did indeed feel a deeper attraction towards women than was 'normal'.
a. Yes, as sexual education taught me. I was aware my affections were 'wrong' and 'abnormal' in the eyes of society. I'll admit my thoughts on both were not as developed as they are now, but I was aware of both love and sexuality.
3. I do not believe so. I've been equally exposed to both genders, never faced ill from one more than the other, and developed 'normally'. There is no influence to attribute.

Dai Grepher: So you have no fear of God because you do not believe He exists?

He/She/It/They... Perhaps the concept of a Christian Buddhist is hard to comprehend. I really shouldn't advertise myself as such, it's unfair. I believe the premise of some sort of divinity... IF God exists, I would have no fear of God. The God I know of is better than punishing those who dare to love. If I'm wrong, so be it. Your threats of sin and vile temptation hold no force with me, I do not lust after the flesh, and I do not promote promiscuity... You happen to be terribly misinformed about what homosexuals are really like.

Dai Grepher: Why do you follow it? Do you know that it is a belief that was created by men?

I'm not sure if you're asserting that I hate men... Which I most certainly do not. I fail to see what that has to do with anything. Men are perfectly capable of rational thought, and Buddhism was created by Buddha... Also male. Are you suggesting that lesbians must adopt a pseudo-feminist religion, throw off the shackles of male oppression, and burn their brassieres in a public display of defiance? I'm sorry, my assumption is simply leading off of yours... Lesbians are not 'man-haters'. Well, some are... But that is a case of homosexuality being a choice. That is different.

Dai Grepher: The non-religious arguments against homosexuality are quite logical and wholesome. The lifestyle is inherently dangerous to the mind and body through ideals of promiscuity and the spread of diseases. Many people do find it repulsive, and that is a natural feeling. Some of the people that do think there is something wrong with the lifestyle think so for logical reasons. Are his or her feelings and thoughts less important than someone who lives the lifestyle?

This is where your misinformation takes opinion and bias and promotes it as fact. This entire idea of homosexual promiscuity is a large myth. Yes, homosexuals do engage in sexual acts, as do straight couples. AIDS is actually fastest rising amoung female heterosexual teenagers, aged 16-21. So the 'spread of disease' you seem so paranoid about, is rather closer to your side of the spectrum. The 'lifestyle' is only dangerous to the mind because hateful and ignorant bigots make it that way. Homosexuals do not try to convert people to their cause... Nor do they have this self-righteous attitude that they are indeed 'right'. They want to be equal, not hated. I do not believe that is a crime. I will agree that many people find homosexuality repulsive. Of this I am well aware. However, if we rule out religious opinion, ignorance, and misinformation as they are far from 'logical reasons' you will find that the majority of people are not repulsed by homosexuality. Yes, I do deem religious reasons as an illogical way of hating those that are homosexual. Anything that promotes ignorance and hate is illogical to me. The thoughts and feelings of those that do not live the lifestyle are not less important, provided they are based on a fair and equal analysis. As I have mentioned, I have observed and researched this argument from both sides, and I have come to an informed opinion. This does make my opinion more valid than those who blindly hate something they do not even attempt to understand.

Dai Grepher: No, you do not fear Hell because you think that it is a joke. If you don’t believe in God, then how can you believe in sin? How can you say that diverging from a path that you think is right is a sin if there is no authority to determine what is sin and what is right?
You need to realize that Hell is real, and that it awaits all those that have sinned and have not been forgiven by Jesus Christ. Sin is the worst element in this existence, and Hell is how God deals with sinners that reject salvation from it. Hell is a terrible place. It is the Lake of Fire. Its flames are as eternal as they are intense. It is engulfing and excruciating. It is never-ending and never consuming. That is only the physical aspect of Hell. The mental aspect is probably just as worse. The worst nightmares are amplified millions of times over. Every fear and insecurity is set loose to scratch and rip at the psyche. Then comes the reminder that this is how it will be for eternity and the more painful reminder that salvation was always obtainable. It was a free gift that was being handed to the lost, and if they had just accepted it, the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, then they could have been spared from the torments of Hell.

Here is where you assume my beliefs for me, and attempt to enforce your own as fact. Perhaps you missed the point where I said I will find faith for myself, and not allow anyone to think that they can interpret what God or any other divine force can dictate. I DO NOT need to realize that Hell is real. I will just write off this paragraph as you attempting to enforce Catholic doctrine upon me. Please do not tell me what I must and must not realize. I don't tell you to be more 'zen', I expect the same respect for my opinions. My sin is most assuredly not the same as yours. I rate 'hate and ignorance' higher than 'sex with same gender' on my very own 'sin-scale' and no outdated book written by human beings, NOT a divine source, will tell me otherwise.

Dai Grepher: People that hate others are probably not Christian, just as people that live sinful lifestyles probably aren’t Christian. Besides, didn’t you just say that you are a Buddhist?

Buddhism is beautiful in that it's doctrine can be applied to many other beliefs. One can be Buddhist and believe in Jesus, or be Jewish and still follow the Buddhist path. Christians are quite capable of hate (this thread is a prime example), and Christians are just as prone to live in sin. Perhaps the truly devout are not... But my opinion of a truly devout Christian and yours are bound to vary greatly.

Dai Grepher: Then you should pray to Jesus Christ and ask for salvation. That is how I was able to obtain a personal relationship with Him and with God through the Holy Spirit.
First, you must realize that you are a sinner, just as everyone is, and you must realize that Jesus Christ is the only one that can save you from your sins. Next, pray to Jesus, tell him that you know this, and then ask Him to come into your life and save you from your sins. Ask Him to become your savior and cleanse your heart and soul from sin. If you do this, then from that point on you will be saved and the Holy Spirit will be with you always. You’ll also be able to speak directly to God through prayer and through the Holy Spirit, and when you die or are called up in the rapture, whichever comes first, then you will go to Heaven and spend eternity in God’s presence.
If you have any questions, please ask. I would love to talk more about this with you. If you need help praying, I can pray with you. You can even send me a private message if you do not feel comfortable talking about it here.

I have prayed, I have tried to remain Christian even though my own people have rejected me, or told me to change who I was in order to be accepted, much like you are now. I should not have to change a fundamental part of who I am. It makes no sense to me. I do not feel I require salvation, for I have no shame in loving for love's sake, not for the sake of being 'morally right'. Also, do not mistake 'love' for 'wanton sex acts'. I have no trouble with the concept of prayer, but I feel you think I need to be forgiven for something I do not seek forgiveness for. I'll admit I sin when I lie, or say hurtful things, or when I'm rude... But that's about as far as my sins go. My belief differs from yours, and so I cannot follow this... And I ask that you respect that. I have no desire to do this, as it is not my belief, it is yours.

Dai Grepher: Which was what? That you looked up to her? Respected her intelligence? Idolized her? Liked her personality? Thought she was beautiful? There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, there is nothing wrong with you loving her. However, when that love crosses the line into the physical aspects regarding gender, then it becomes wrong. You said yourself that gender was not an issue then. You were attracted to the qualities of her character. That is perfectly normal. Many women love to be around other women that have intelligence and strong characters. Coveting her body and lusting for her is when it becomes a sin.

Well, I'm glad to see that the basis of general homosexual attraction is apparently not wrong to you. Because, though it may surprise you, homosexuals don't simply look at a person and think 'sex'. In fact, I wouldn't be the first, nor last, person to love one of the same gender in this manner. However, I feel you should separate this 'lustful thoughts' ideal from the urge to love someone completely. Now, if you feel that heterosexual couples that engage in sexual acts for pleasure are also guilty of this, that's simply your belief, and not a fault to attribute to homosexuality. Love is expressed in many ways, and it becomes natural to want to be with someone on that apparently 'lustful' level. It doesn't make love any less powerful. When sex becomes recreation, I'll admit that is not love.

Dai Grepher: Wait. Firstly, did you feel physically attracted to other girls or just this special one?

I've felt attraction for other females, but my feelings for her remain the most powerful. My sexuality would not be based on one isolated incident.

Dai Grepher: Perhaps not then. That doesn’t mean that the homosexual agenda did not reinforce that initial attraction through confusion and justification tactics. Since that day, has anything influenced you toward or away from it?

...There is no homosexual agenda. I find it hard to discuss anything with someone who believes there is. That is merely fear and ignorance. If anything, there's a heterosexual agenda... But no, I don't go propagating false information and bias. Please, and you have my word as a homosexual, I assure you that we're not trying to 'queer up' America. No amber alert is necessary. Remain calm. We'd just like to be normal people too.

Dai Grepher: I have heard many news stories and reports on news stations and websites as well as personal stories about gangs of men that abduct younger men and rape them at a designated location. It has also happened to some that were in the military. I’ve read a report on two homosexual men abducting a young teenage boy and doing the most unspeakable things to him, ultimately killing him from the sexual acts alone. I’ve hear of some homosexuals that are victims of HIV AIDS leaving their used drug needles in public places and motels so that others accidentally stick themselves with them and contract the virus. Those sound like gangs, hate filled people, and terrorists.
However, I don’t attribute these to homosexuality because I know that anyone can choose to do those things just as anyone can choose to be homosexual. If I were to say that all homosexuals are like the ones that I have heard of in news reports and are incapable of choosing to become moral, I would be making a horrible generalization, and an incorrect one.
Remember though, it is incorrect for you to make the generalization that homosexuals are kind, caring, and compassionate. That is the homosexual agenda speaking. I would also like you to note that with some of the stories that I have read and looked up some news stations tried to cover the story up or tried to overshadow it with other reports. This is because the homosexual agenda does not want people to know about these stories, but they will bring everyone’s attention to stories consisting of two southerners that murder a gay person. They will put stations under pressure to reject shows that poke fun at their lifestyle, but demand shows that feature homosexual men reforming straight men into dressing as they do to be televised. They’ll also support shows that promote the lifestyle and portray it as something that is harmless and should be accepted. Why? To change society into what they want it to be.

I never made that generalization. I was merely trying to contrast the 'ills' of homosexuality with REAL ills. I never said there weren't homosexuals who are indeed horrible people. But I'm certain (stastically, actually) that for every homosexual rapist, there are 20 heterosexual ones. Not all homosexuals are kind, caring and compassionate. Nor are all homosexuals sexual deviants who want your 'hot, straight ass'.

...Also, I do hope you realize that every time you mention a 'homosexual agenda', you make yourself sound rather stark raving mad. I'm not sure... But as a (metaphorically) card-carrying homosexual... I'd be a TAD more informed of our plans to enslave the heterosexual race, wouldn't I? Or wait! No! I'm just a smokescreen, here to lull you into a false sense of security...

Tonight... WE ATTACK!

I'm sorry, I just find the entire concept hillarious, and respond accordingly. You act silly, I'll act silly.

Dai Grepher: I do not hate you.

Good to know, I don't hate you either, let's have pie.

[Wanchimaera]

I'm sure calling him a troll, an "it", a bigot, and a prejudiced bigot is really going to encourage him to alter his views...
Sure, it probably won't happen, but name-calling and labeling? This kind of thing is why I stay a Conservative.

...and burn their brassieres in a public display of defiance?

Bras cause breast cancer. They... um... shouldn't be worn... uh... yeah. Right...

[SOAP]

I'm sure calling him a troll, an "it", a bigot, and a prejudiced bigot is really going to encourage him to alter his views...
Sure, it probably won't happen, but name-calling and labeling? This kind of thing is why I stay a Conservative.

Well as long aso no one puts a big fat Politically Correct ribbon over the whole issue so as to not offend either side. I personally don't like to use word's like bigotry, not because is politically incorrect, but because that's not always the case. However sometimes there are times when you just have to use a word to get a point across. Maybe calling Dai Grepher a bigot is wrong. Who knows. I just know, as much I try, I let the "b" word slip out in these debates. Maybe it's just a gay rights activist habit of mine. In any case, aren't we being just as biased and bigotted as he? Or maybe I've just snapped after not eating or sleeping well in two weeks.

Carry on.

[Tekky]

Can I just ask DG, what is your opinion on gay Christians? Christians believe they were created by God, and that He has a purpose for them. But if God despises homosexuals, why would He create them? And please, don't argue with me that you can repress homosexual feelings, because I know you cant. One more point, sexuality (if I remember my GCSE R.E. coursework properly) is viewed as a special gift from God. In the case of a gay Christian, then why have they been denied the gift of Sexuality since it a sin according to the Bible?
This next bit is for my own curiosity, but what references (apart from Corinthians) are there in the New Testament about homosexuality?

[SOAP]

^ Romans. But that's lustful gay sex. Though people claim it includes gay affection such as simply holding hands. I think taht's a load of bull.

[Dryth]

I'm sure calling him a troll, an "it", a bigot, and a prejudiced bigot is really going to encourage him to alter his views...
Sure, it probably won't happen, but name-calling and labeling? This kind of thing is why I stay a Conservative.

I don't see how it's name-calling?

If it's raining, it's raining. If it's a man, it's a man. If it's a duck, it's a duck. If it's a bigot, it's a bigot. If it's a troll, it's a troll. If it's a thing, then it is an it. Humans are treated specially by virtue of traits that elevate them above the level of others. Dai Grepher seems to lack these traits.

If you wish, I could wrap that up in my own dogma? Apparently that's a coverall for intolerance. Today my dogma is that of coincidental solipsism, so Dai Grepher is responsible for all that's wrong in the world. Especially unsafe heterosexual sex and men beating their wives. Why? Because of false assumptions I choose to make about Dai Grephers in general and then dodge around if you challenge me on such assumptions. Because, after all, these assumptions are all true; my dogma says so. And as a good-hearted solipsist it'd be rather heretical for me not to consider everything that isn't me to be anything other than an it. [Ed: And I didn't use 'bigot' or 'troll' once. Surely my argument is less offensive as a result!]

Being conservative or not has nothing to do with it; it's a matter of prejudice. If I called someone a racist for blaming high crime rates and the ghettotization of America on blacks, it's not because I'm a liberal and they're a conservative.

Maybe calling Dai Grepher a bigot is wrong.

It's a word. It has a definition and it has connotation. The definition applies in most forms, and your mileage may vary as to what the connotation is; I can't be held responsible for that. If you can find me a suitable euphamism that doesn't distort the definition as well then I'll use it. Forgive me my conservative views with respect to language usage.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

[quote=Dai Grepher]
Dai Grepher: Very well.
1. Did you choose this, or do you feel you were created this way?
2. How old were you when you realized this? (Answer 10 years)
a. Did you have concept of love or sexuality at this age?
3. Did anything influence this realization?
I will await your reply, examine the answers, and perhaps ask more questions about them.[/quote]

Why are you concerned about lesbianism? It makes no sense. In the Old Testament, the major source of all this homosexuality is wrong argument, the original words only referred to homosexuality amongst men. According to the Bible, there's nothing wrong with Lesbianism. (Understandable, once you realise who actually wrote the Old Testament).




Dai Grepher: So you have no fear of God because you do not believe He exists?



[quote]Dai Grepher: Why do you follow it? Do you know that it is a belief that was created by men?[/quote]

That's a bit like saying, Why do you follow Christianity? That is also a belief created by men. After all, Jesus never said, "Worship me. Create a religion based around my resurrection". Who created Christianity? Paul, whom didn't know Jesus in real life, and maybe a few of the Disciples.

[quote]Dai Grepher: The non-religious arguments against homosexuality are quite logical and wholesome. The lifestyle is inherently dangerous to the mind and body through ideals of promiscuity and the spread of diseases.[/quote]

That point is, of course, based on the premise that homosexuals are nothing but sex-crazed maniacs, which is of course, like saying that all Christians are white, racist and bigots. Need I say that both statements are incorrect?

[quote]Many people do find it repulsive, and that is a natural feeling. Some of the people that do think there is something wrong with the lifestyle think so for logical reasons. Are his or her feelings and thoughts less important than someone who lives the lifestyle?[/quote]

Please name these logical reasons. I'm sure that the logic behind them may be misinformed logic.

[quote]Dai Grepher: You need to realize that Hell is real, and that it awaits all those that have sinned and have not been forgiven by Jesus Christ.[/quote]

You cannot prove it exists, therefore you cannot say with 100% certainity that it does. For all you know this world could be Hell and punishment for sinning is to be reborn in this world.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Then you should pray to Jesus Christ and ask for salvation. That is how I was able to obtain a personal relationship with Him and with God through the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

This is what I dislike about Christianity. It is like some technology. It can encourage rather lazy behaviour. The religion preaches that all wrongs will eventually be sorted out later on in life through the Hand of God. I don't like that train of thought at all and I'm sure a good deal of reasonable Christians out there don't either.

Salvation will never come from God or from Christ. Why should Christ bother to do anything for Christians, if they haven't even followed his teachings? What did you think he spent the majority of his adult life doing? Teaching us how to live so that we won't need some almighty influence to step in and make things right.

[quote]First, you must realize that you are a sinner, just as everyone is, and you must realize that Jesus Christ is the only one that can save you from your sins.[/quote]

This encourages only sloppy behaviour. You must save yourself from sins. To take a Republican stance, why should the state put you on the dole? You should get a job and earn money. Thusly, to put the same Republican stance on sin, why should Jesus step in and help you out when you can change the way you behave, follow his teachings more and redeem yourself?

[quote]Dai Grepher: Remember though, it is incorrect for you to make the generalization that homosexuals are kind, caring, and compassionate. That is the homosexual agenda speaking.[/quote]

It is also wrong to make the generalisation that Christians are kind, caring and compassionate, because not all of them are. I hope, however, I misunderstood your statement, because it looks as if you're saying that the generalisation that homosexuals are not kind, not caring and not compassionate is correct.

[quote]I would also like you to note that with some of the stories that I have read and looked up some news stations tried to cover the story up or tried to overshadow it with other reports. This is because the homosexual agenda does not want people to know about these stories, but they will bring everyone’s attention to stories consisting of two southerners that murder a gay person. They will put stations under pressure to reject shows that poke fun at their lifestyle, but demand shows that feature homosexual men reforming straight men into dressing as they do to be televised. They’ll also support shows that promote the lifestyle and portray it as something that is harmless and should be accepted. Why? To change society into what they want it to be.[/quote]

You're very paranoid, though what can I say to argue against you? I'm so busy with work I can't even get into the gay scene.

[quote]Dai Grepher: I do not hate you.[/quote]

And I don't hate you, but you certainly do make me very worried by some of the strange things you say.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Well first of all, animals cannot talk. Even if they could, secondly, one would say that he hates how the alpha male in his group has authority over him and how much he wishes he had the strength to kill him and take over leadership.
Also, humans are not animals.[/quote]

Then what are we? Vegetables? Minerals? Of course we're animals.

[quote]Dai Grepher: We are smarter than animals. We are not controlled by instinct.[/quote]

That's what you think. Intelligence is nothing special. Caledonian crows are intelligent. Dolphins are intelligent. Smarter? Please. Some animals are smarter than human beings in what they do. They can achieve much greater things.

We are definitely controlled by instinct. The whole act of reproduction is nothing but instinct. The protection of offspring from you and your relatives is an instinct, an instinct for the survival of your own genes. In the end, nothing matters. Only your genes survive.

[quote]If you think we are animals and that the instinct to kill to survive pardons animals, then what gives you the right to say that people that kill other people are wrong? Isn’t hate an instinct? With your logic, how do you tell a person who hates homosexuals, that he or she is wrong for doing so?[/quote]

Well, we don't really eat other people do we? Animals kill other animals and eat them. Big difference there.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Actually, doesn’t homosexuality limit the reproduction of human life? So technically, it does affect human survival rate.[/quote]

Homosexuality has an effect on human survival rate, but not in the way you think. Homosexuals are a minute part of society. We will always be, because homosexuality is a combination of genetic and environmental factors that worked together to determine the outcome of our sexuality.

Homosexuals can still contribute by looking after human life. The evolutionary reason why we are selfless when it comes to our own relatives, is because they share our genes. To help them is to ensure the survival of their genes, and thusly, some of your own genes. Homosexuals will do anything to ensure the survival of their relatives, even if they do not reproduce themselves.

As I said before, in the end, all it boils down to is the survival of genes.

[quote]Also, are you saying someone who is uncomfortable around another that appears or acts menacing is wrong for fearing for his or her own live even when that fear stems from the other individual’s actions and appearance?[/quote]

There's nothing wrong about that. But seriously, homosexuals are fearsome?

[quote]
Dai Grepher: I won’t do that because the Bible does not tell us to hate homosexuals.[/quote]

Nor did the more original versions of the Bible tell you that all homosexuality is wrong.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: You have no idea what you’re talking about. I suggest you actually read the Bible first before telling someone who actually has read it and studied it what it says.[/quote]

I'm not a Christian, but I went to a Christian school. Hence, I have a Bible in my house. It doesn't say anything about homosexuality in the Old Testament. It talks about men lying with men and men having sex with men. Nothing about women with women.

Also, the Bible tells you not to eat pork, shellfish... that sort of thing.

And you know when Reverend Lovejoy in the Simpsons said that according the Bible, it is technically a sin to go to the toilet? It actually states in the Bible, that unless you do a purification ceremony involving the release of some doves or birds, then you will forever remain unclean no matter how much you clean your bottom and hands.

[quote]Dai Grepher: I judge no one. That book is the word of God. He is the judge because he is the creator and master of everything.[/quote]

Maybe, but how can you be sure that book is the complete, unadulterated Word of God?

[quote]Dai Grepher: Hatred isn’t a sin. Hatred of another person is a sin.[/quote]

Where did you get that information? Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it say, Thou shalt not hate another person.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Fear is a natural safety response,[/quote]

I thought that you said before that we aren't controlled by instincts? Fear is an instinct. It can control us and in many cases, it does. Fear is what prevents us from killing ourselves, it is what helps to prevent us from doing stupid things that would result in our death. It is in instinct. It can control us, but does not have to.

[quote]Dai Grepher: They can be argued in homosexual relationships just as they can be argued in heterosexual relation ships. That doesn’t mean that the outcome can’t be in favor of the proper beneficiary.
Why doesn’t living together mean as much? Shouldn’t love be more than enough? What importance can the title of marriage possibly have that makes a homosexual relationship more than what it is? Acceptance and the benefits. That’s it. That is what they want. They want their lifestyle to be held to the same level as a traditional and moral one. It has nothing to do with their supposed love for one another.[/quote]

Thus, we should ban marriage altogether. After all, according to you, marriage isn't about love. Straight people are just using marriage as a way of saying they're better than people that aren't married.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Like I said. It doesn’t matter what mankind dictates as being moral or immoral. Only God can do that.[/quote]

But in the case of abortion, isn't that exactly what's happening? There's nothing in the Bible that talks about the killing of an unborn baby. Also, according to the Bible, it is perfectly okay to enslave people from other tribes... which was once taken to be, perfectly moral to enslave black people.

But mankind dictated that that was wrong and immoral.

[quote]Dai Grepher: They are capable of love and compassion for others. It’s just that they choose to direct those feelings to that which is unnatural. Lust and satisfying the flesh is the basis of all homosexual relationships. Otherwise, why not choose to love the qualities of someone of the opposite sex?[/quote]

Your argument can thusly be applied to heterosexual relationships, I hope you do realise that. Why should males have to love females? Why do they have to love females? Surely, they should be loving a person not because they are of the opposite sex, but because they are a person?

[quote]Dai Grepher: A man can be stimulated by heroine as well. Does that make it natural? Does that make it healthy? Does that make it right?

Just because those nerves can feel sensations from that side of the body doesn’t mean that they’re supposed to.[/quote]

Firstly, a heroine is a female hero.

Secondly, heroin was once very legal. In fact, it was once found in cough medicines and used very legally to treat medical conditions.
Source: http://faculty.washi...udler/hero.html
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin
(P.S. Did you know that the German pharmaceutical company, Bayer, once trademarked the name, heroin and that they're responsible for giving it its name?)

So in those days, yes, it was right. Though it was clearly manmade, it was considered a drug to treat ailments.

Another example of how life changes and how standards change. Tell me, do you think the world is now better that heroin is illegal? Do you think the world will become a better place now that we know tobacco is bad for you?

To put another spin on things, when you were a little child, I bet you were repulsed at the thought of being with someone of the opposite gender. You may say, that's not the same, it's childish behaviour and we grow out of it... Well, if you argue that, then I might as well say that it is also generally childish behaviour to not want to harm others. Young children cannot understand why wars have to happen. They see it as bad, because it involves killing other people. I suppose though, that's childish behaviour too and we should grow out of it. <_<

[Korhend]

Well, if you argue that, then I might as well say that it is also generally childish behaviour to not want to harm others. Young children cannot understand why wars have to happen. They see it as bad, because it involves killing other people.

Not exactly true, megalomania is a reversion to childhood morality, and often goes hand in hand with violence. Children do not understand why there is war because they dont see the complex moral arguments behind each side, they see it as "Wrong Side" and "Right Side", and can't understand why someone would be on the wrong side...
Just a little something I wanted to add.

[Xeres]

...Wolf undercut my answers. 20% more answer, 100% less lesbian!

*very sad drum riff*

[Emiko]

Why are you concerned about lesbianism? It makes no sense. In the Old Testament, the major source of all this homosexuality is wrong argument, the original words only referred to homosexuality amongst men. According to the Bible, there's nothing wrong with Lesbianism. (Understandable, once you realise who actually wrote the Old Testament).

actully, the greek word used for man in those scriptures refers to mankind. I believe it to be 'Adham'. (The name Adam refers to mankind or earthly man )

 Who created Christianity? Paul, whom didn't know Jesus in real life, and maybe a few of the Disciples.

the Apostle Paul (or Saint Paul to Catholics)was a disciple of Jesus, who knew him....at least if we are talking about the same guy.

 
But in the case of abortion, isn't that exactly what's happening? There's nothing in the Bible that talks about the killing of an unborn baby.

Actully the bible does state that killing an unborn child is a sin. First of all it clearly states that God views every life as precious in his eyes. ( Ps. 139. 13-16) "You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother...your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all it's parts were down in writing." (ex. 21: 22, 23) "in case men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregant woman and her child....if a fatal accedent should occur, then you must give soul for soul." the original hebrw test refers to a fatal accident to either mother or child...


As the one comment about why should Christ do anything to help christians....the bible actully says the only way to be saved is by calling upon the name of the father..or God. So it isn't Christ who will save anyone, it's god...or well you know...It also says the people who say their christians yet dont act the part are false witnesses to his power...meaning a Christian should act like Jesus before Jesus would do anything to help him...if you want to look at it that way. And there are [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people in this world who say they are Chrisians, but are cruel and vindictive people who are looking out for their own interests...

Jesus was nothing like that...the was kind and loving who didn't judge people or say "Your not gonna be in my kingdom cause your a homo!" etc...He did set a example for us to follow in hopes that we would...leaving our life's path up to us was the best thing he could of done.

[Octorok]

So it isn't Christ who will save anyone, it's god.

Christ is God, if you are a Christian. Its called the Triune God, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

[Emiko]

Christ is God, if you are a Christian. Its called the Triune God, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Jesus is not God, john 20:17 (where Jesus is talking to mary Magdalene) "Do not hold me, for I have not yet acended to the Father; but go to mmy brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God, and to your God."

Jesus says that God is his father, not himself. And if you read in the old Testimate of the King James Version at Psalms 83.18 it states that God's name is Jehovah (in english) the four hebrew letters that make up the Tetragrammaton THWH or JHVH means: "He causes to Become"

Many Churchs took out his name fore they said it was to holy to speak of. No where in the bible does it ever mention that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. Det. 6:4 says: "the Lord our God is one Lord" Acts 7.55, 56 reports that Stephen saw Jesus standing at God's right hand....if they were one soul then how is that possible?

and to TanakaBros06; that is the whole purpose of the controversal forum...to stand up for what you believe and act like bumholes...you just have to take everything with a grain of salt and not take things personal. It's how we believe.

However this is going in another direction than where it started

[Alakhriveion]

This debate is getting on my nerves. Both sides are being childish, and ignoring important parts of the others' arguments.

I really see no legitimate argument for descriminatory marriage policies and homophobia. If you could give one (be straightforward, I think that's part of the problem here) I'd be happy to listen.

[SOAP]

I'm dropping out of this debate. It's getting crazy. People are are arguing against Dai Grepher and he's not even here!

[Wanchimaera]

I really see no legitimate argument for descriminatory marriage policies and homophobia.  If you could give one (be straightforward, I think that's part of the problem here) I'd be happy to listen.

Of course, you know, that roughly half of America's AIDS cases are attributed to gay men; specifically male-to-male sexual contact. Others don't like the views of others "imposed" on them. The typical response being, "... but they're not imposing!" but I might remind you of the Ten Commandments monument, the Cross in the Los Angeles City Seal, and the many banned nativity scenes around Christmas that were deemed as being "imposing". Same thing, right?

[Dai Grepher]

It seems that I have quite a lot of typing to do. I will reply as soon as I can.