117 replies to this topic

[Black Knight]

Bill Cosby's old.

Just wondering Fizzbit, but if you got married, would you prefer a guy or a girl?

[Fizzbit]

Bill Cosby's old.

Just wondering Fizzbit, but if you got married, would you prefer a guy or a girl?

Well, I'm trying to lean more towards guys right now romantically, but as far as marriage goes, if gay marriage becomes legalized, whoever I happen to be with and love will determine that. I suppose I'd prefer a guy more just because of children. I'd be willing to adopt or get artificial insemination if I was with a girl, but I don't know how unnatural it would feel. I'd rather have my own kid and know who the father is and all that.

[Oberon Storm]

Is technology at a point we can artificialy mix the genetic info of two people and get a new person? I mean that way both members a lesbian couple could be a biological parent of their child.

[Alakhriveion]

You could be inseminated by someone you know, if that's an issue.

[Fizzbit]

Jor-El
If you wanna look at it that way, a lot of lesbians have one woman have one of their eggs fertilized, and then their partner carries it. There's no way to produce a zygote without sperm, though, if that's what you mean.

Alak
Well, I've thought about that, too, but then there's guilt issues. Such as, the guy may sign a waiver saying that he is only a doner and is not under any burdens by the child (child support, etc), but he'll always see that kid and know that it really is his, and feel there's an obligation to it in one way or another. I wouldn't want to put a good friend of mine through that kind of emotional anguish.

[Alakhriveion]

Dai Grepher: Definitely not. Society in this day and age disregards the sanctity of marriage. Stars get married and divorced without regard, and some even wish to defile the union with unnatural partnerships.

Are you perhaps referring to Homosexuality?

[Dai Grepher]

I was.

[Alakhriveion]

Why do you find it unnatural? Why do you find it to defile marriage?

[Vazor]

Why do you find it unnatural?  Why do you find it to defile marriage?

Dictionary.com defines marriage as being the legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife. So, even if you're not religious like me, Gay Marriage technically isn't a real marriage.

There's also the fact that homosexual relationships can never produce a child, which from an evolutionary standpoint is the benefit of a relationship. How can something so counterproductive to human procreation possibly be natural? Answer: it can't.

Also, look me in the eye and tell me that you're comfortable with the image of two guys...well, you know the rest. The fact is, you can be as accepting and tolerant and all the crap you want, when you press them enough, nobody is truly comfortable with the concept.

---

And besides Alak, your post was completely unnecessary, purposely aimed at provocing a needless debate and making somebody else look like the bad guy. So quit being an instegator.

[Alakhriveion]

Also, look me in the eye and tell me that you're comfortable with the image of two guys...well, you know the rest. The fact is, you can be as accepting and tolerant and all the crap you want, when you press them enough, nobody is truly comfortable with the concept.

Yes... yes people are. It's a security issue.

And besides Alak, your post was completely unnecessary, purposely aimed at provocing a needless debate and making somebody else look like the bad guy. So quit being an instegator.

*Points to mod list* Gotta keep it interesting... we also haven't done homosexuality in what, days?

[Korhend]

Dictionary.com defines marriage as being the legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife. So, even if you're not religious like me, Gay Marriage technically isn't a real marriage.

Yes, assuming we all were in favor of fundementalist interperetation of the dictionary.

There's also the fact that homosexual relationships can never produce a child, which from an evolutionary standpoint is the benefit of a relationship. How can something so counterproductive to human procreation possibly be natural? Answer: it can't.

So by your logic, Harlequin Fetus is a choice.

Also, look me in the eye and tell me that you're comfortable with the image of two guys...well, you know the rest. The fact is, you can be as accepting and tolerant and all the crap you want, when you press them enough, nobody is truly comfortable with the concept.

Well obviously not because its the internet, and looking in the eye is quite impossible. But I swear on my honor that I have no difficulty with the concept. I am quite confident in my sexuality that I am not threatened by it. But this logic of "I say so" can be used to prove any point. Watch!
"Vazor, look me in the eye and tell me that you're comfortable with the image of two people of the opposite sex...well, you know the rest.The fact is, you can be as accepting and tolerant and all the crap you want, when you press them enough, nobody is truly comfortable with the concept."
See! Dictating thoughts to people works for everyone!

And besides Alak, your post was completely unnecessary, purposely aimed at provocing a needless debate and making somebody else look like the bad guy. So quit being an instegator.

Gee, someone disputed the ideas of someones post in controversial. Shocker.

[Dai Grepher]

God's law considers it to be an abomination because it goes against God's will for mankind.

It is unnatural because nature dictates that procreation requires those of opposite gender to mate.

It defiles the sacred union that many married couples share because it is an unnatural and disgusting lifestyle that people choose to live, and to put that lifestyle on the same level as a traditional marriage is insulting and appalling to the people that have taken the moral path.

Security in one's own choice of attraction is not the issue here. The security issue is founded in mankind's future, and what society will accept and practice when our children become adults and when they are trying to raise their own children. I fear that society will practice and promote a self-destructive lifestyle or path in life that will ultimately lead to the devastation of America or worse, the entire world.

[Oberon Storm]

"Vazor, look me in the eye and tell me that you're comfortable with the image of two people of the opposite sex...well, you know the rest.The fact is, you can be as accepting and tolerant and all the crap you want, when you press them enough, nobody is truly comfortable with the concept."

Come to think of it, I am uncomfortable seeing members of the opposite sex publicly display affection. So, I guess all marriage should be banned.

[Alakhriveion]

God's law considers it to be an abomination because it goes against God's will for mankind.

Covered in another thread.

It is unnatural because nature dictates that procreation requires those of opposite gender to mate.

Whether or not that's ground for declaring something 'unnatrual' aside, what does that say of sex with protection? What about sterile people? Non-vaginal sex? Masturbation?

It defiles the sacred union that many married couples share because it is an unnatural and disgusting lifestyle that people choose to live, and to put that lifestyle on the same level as a traditional marriage is insulting and appalling to the people that have taken the moral path.

I see no evidence for it being a choice, and as for it being 'insulting,' well, live with it.

Security in one's own choice of attraction is not the issue here. The security issue is founded in mankind's future, and what society will accept and practice when our children become adults and when they are trying to raise their own children. I fear that society will practice and promote a self-destructive lifestyle or path in life that will ultimately lead to the devastation of America or worse, the entire world.

OK, let's go one sentance at a time.

Security in one's own choice of attraction is not the issue here.

Yes, it is. That's the root of homophobia.

The security issue is founded in mankind's future, and what society will accept and practice when our children become adults and when they are trying to raise their own children.

What's the problem there? What, will people see married gays and say "Gee, it seems half the country hates gays, and laws are being passed against them left and right, but so what? I bet the food's good- let's go!"

I fear that society will practice and promote a self-destructive lifestyle or path in life that will ultimately lead to the devastation of America or worse, the entire world.

"What is it these conservatives see that we don't? Is there some sort of Sodomite Energy produced by the union of ass and penis that breaks down civilization?"
-Jon Stewart

[Dai Grepher]

Whether or not that's ground for declaring something 'unnatrual' aside, what does that say of sex with protection? What about sterile people? Non-vaginal sex? Masturbation?

Dai Grepher: People that are sterile can't help it. That is what God has intended for them and they must accept it as a handicap. Now, to keep the conversation clean, I will refer to the following as planed parenting. When a man and a woman do not wish to have children, then it is a conscious decision based on multiple factors such as income, responsibility, house space, etc. The point is that these two do not have children at that time because they choose not to, not because they cannot.
The later is a product of satisfying the flesh, and it encourages lust, which is also a sin. Self-manipulation of that fashion is wrong.

I see no evidence for it being a choice, and as for it being 'insulting,' well, live with it.

Dai Grepher: Everything is a choice. As is what one is attracted to. There is no evidence that homosexuality is in someone genetic makeup. That is only an excuse that is used to persuade others not to disapprove of their actions.
Also, I will not live with it. Instead I will vote against it, as many others have done, including some homosexuals.

OK, let's go one sentance at a time.

"Security in one's own choice of attraction is not the issue here."  

Yes, it is. That's the root of homophobia.

Dai Grepher: For some it may be. For many it is not, including me. Also, homophobia is the irrational fear or hatred for homosexuality. My fear of what damage homosexuality can cause, and my hatred for it is not irrational.

"The security issue is founded in mankind's future, and what society will accept and practice when our children become adults and when they are trying to raise their own children."
 
What's the problem there? What, will people see married gays and say "Gee, it seems half the country hates gays, and laws are being passed against them left and right, but so what? I bet the food's good- let's go!"

Dai Grepher: People that are susceptible to sinful ways, as well as children who are very impressionable, will believe that there is nothing wrong or harmful about the lifestyle. It will be accepted as any union and practiced without conscience and without reason. It will corrupt the minds of men and women and lead to the downfall of the human race.

"I fear that society will practice and promote a self-destructive lifestyle or path in life that will ultimately lead to the devastation of America or worse, the entire world."

"What is it these conservatives see that we don't? Is there some sort of Sodomite Energy produced by the union of ass and penis that breaks down civilization?"
-Jon Stewart"

Dai Grepher: That lifestyle commonly carries inherent hardships, adversities, and problems. Among these are certain emotional problems, and it also opens the mind up to worse and more destructive ideals. Some of these ideals may seem like grandiose motives for peace, unity, and love, but the main driving idea behind the lifestyle is, "If it feels good, do it." It tells those involved not to think about the consequences. Ideals like that, if taken to heart, will produce a weak-minded and over trusting society for any military power to crush like an ant or control with a mere pop music album.
The lifestyle will ultimately produce sheep, that don't know any better. What is worse is that it will produce a society that has no sense of right and wrong. It will have no morals and no direction. Worst of all, it will be a society that will not fear God.

[Isis]

Why should we fear God?

[Selena]

What's right and what's wrong differs from person to person. There's little chance of uniting everyone under the same moral code. When it comes to homosexuality, it's usually religion that comes into play the most. That, or the people who think insertion in the OTHER body hole is just 'icky and gross!'. Personally, while I'm straight, I'm for gay civil unions and support gay rights. Why? Because there really isn't anything wrong with it. It's a hateful stigma that started a long time ago, but like it or not, you can't deem homosexuality 'unnatural'. It's common in nature, in various species.

It was an accepted part of ancient societies (Greece, Rome, etc.), and is once again being reaccepted now. Which I think is a good thing. To me, it seems awfully wrong to restrict other people's rights just because you happen to disagree with it. You can't choose who you fall in love with. Most everyone's had a crush on someone they didn't intend to have a crush on. For some, it's on those who are of the same gender. Homosexual couples can be just as loving and caring as Hetero couples, and be just as kind and moral.

'It will degrade society and if they adopt they'll breed a whole new army of queers!' Bullshit. Just because something is accepted doesn't mean that the majority of the population is going to have a massive sexuality conversion. Also, as I said before, there's not a daaaamn thing wrong with it, in my mind. If a couple's gay- fine. Although I ask that with any couple, gay or straight.... don't do anything in front of me, will ya? Keep in the bedroom. And the bedroom's a private place where no one should have the right to interfere with.

If you're so worried that these 'sinners' will be going to hell, leave it up to God to decide- isn't that what Christianity says anyway? Love everyone, and leave judgement up to God? People should be free to make their own choices in life, and in terms of love, I think no one has the right to butt in and tell someone who they can and cannot love. It's wrong, it's controlling, and if you're so set on banning their unions I see no reason why we shouldn't ban straight unions.

I really think it just comes down to an issue of 'I accept that' or 'I think that's gross and they shouldn't do it!'.

Ideals like that, if taken to heart, will produce a weak-minded and over trusting society for any military power to crush like an ant or control with a mere pop music album.  The lifestyle will ultimately produce sheep, that don't know any better.

Just remember- the same can be said for people who follow the exact words of an ancient book that's been retranslated who knows how many times over.

[Alakhriveion]

People that are sterile can't help it. That is what God has intended for them and they must accept it as a handicap. Now, to keep the conversation clean, I will refer to the following as planed parenting. When a man and a woman do not wish to have children, then it is a conscious decision based on multiple factors such as income, responsibility, house space, etc. The point is that these two do not have children at that time because they choose not to, not because they cannot.

But... gays can adopt, or use a friend of the other gender. If it's a question of CHOOSING whether or not to have children, I don't think homosexuality is an issue.

Everything is a choice. As is what one is attracted to. There is no evidence that homosexuality is in someone genetic makeup. That is only an excuse that is used to persuade others not to disapprove of their actions.

Oh yeah? So is your heterosexuality a choice? Problem here: I've never seen anyone who claims sexual orientation is a choice PROVE IT by, say, going gay. There's also prodigious evidence for it being involuntary (I wouldn't jump to it being genetic, but you never know).

Also, I will not live with it. Instead I will vote against it, as many others have done, including some homosexuals.

You've got to live with it the same way Klansmen have to live with integrated schools and I have to live with you hating it.

People that are susceptible to sinful ways, as well as children who are very impressionable, will believe that there is nothing wrong or harmful about the lifestyle. It will be accepted as any union and practiced without conscience and without reason. It will corrupt the minds of men and women and lead to the downfall of the human race.

So, working on the assumption that it's a choice, I suppose it makes sense that tolerance would lead to acceptance, and then to popularity, but I still don't see how this get us to the fall of society. If memory serves, the Greeks, on whose developments our society is based, were pretty damn gay. It's AMAZING they had time for geometry.

That lifestyle commonly carries inherent hardships, adversities, and problems. Among these are certain emotional problems, and it also opens the mind up to worse and more destructive ideals. Some of these ideals may seem like grandiose motives for peace, unity, and love, but the main driving idea behind the lifestyle is, "If it feels good, do it." It tells those involved not to think about the consequences.

Where's the leap from homosexuality to general promiscuity? That's MTV's fault.

The lifestyle will ultimately produce sheep, that don't know any better. What is worse is that it will produce a society that has no sense of right and wrong. It will have no morals and no direction. Worst of all, it will be a society that will not fear God.

What's the mechanism for this, again? And you still haven't shown me how MJ being gay leads to you and me being gay.

For some it may be. For many it is not, including me. Also, homophobia is the irrational fear or hatred for homosexuality. My fear of what damage homosexuality can cause, and my hatred for it is not irrational.

Since there are so many logical holes in what you're saying, I'm going to be disinclined to believe your assertion that it's rational.

[SOAP]

There is is no rational explanation for fear and hatred... and stupidity.

[Emiko]

Dai Grepher: People that are sterile can't help it. That is what God has intended for them and they must accept it as a handicap.

Emiko: you saying that is going against what the bible says about God being love, and loving everyone. It also says that we were created imperfect due to the bad dicission of what Eve and Adam created from Satan. so being sterile is not "god's fault" but the fault of a person's imperfection. Thats almost as bad as saying "God wanted lil Johnny with him in heaven.." when a child or someone dies...

Emiko: Dai Grepher: Everything is a choice. As is what one is attracted to. There is no evidence that homosexuality is in someone genetic makeup. That is only an excuse that is used to persuade others not to disapprove of their actions.

Emiko:Actully I knew a guy who had homosexual tendancies, but wanted to follow the bibles council so he prayed and read the bible every day to fight those urges...he hasnt once feel into temptation of pursuing a relationship with the same sex. I wont say that all homosexuals are genetic faults...but i believe in some cases as of his, there is a hormone that was extra or not present.

Emiko: Plus, it is not our job to judge people, we have an imperfect nature and are not qualified to judge each other. We only see what is on the outside, not the in....that is why God is perfect, he can read our hearts and our minds..he is the only one capiable of judging us perfectly. That is what is wrong with the world, people are to busy judging each other in a imperfect manner....if their was love then their would be no need of justice.

Emiko:but what do we know! I mean this was a thread about marrage and it went into a dispute about rather people of the same sex should be allowed to get married... Another judging thread that shouldnt of been allowed to go this far...

*walks away before she gets herself in trouble*

[Dai Grepher]

[quote=Ishezu Ishtar] Why should we fear God?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: If we do not follow in His will and break His commandments, our lives will never amount to the best they can be. If we reject His word and His son Jesus Christ, then we will have to stand accountable for our sins before God. Sinners cannot enter the Kingdom of God except through Jesus. If we reject salvation, then our punishment will be eternity in everlasting fire that never subsides and never consumes. Only pain and unthinkable horrors await those that reject Christ and do not fear God's judgment.

[quote name='Selena] What's right and what's wrong differs from person to person. There's little chance of uniting everyone under the same moral code. When it comes to homosexuality' date=' it's usually religion that comes into play the most. That, or the people who think insertion in the OTHER body hole is just 'icky and gross!'. Personally, while I'm straight, I'm for gay civil unions and support gay rights. Why? Because there really isn't anything wrong with it. It's a hateful stigma that started a long time ago, but like it or not, you can't deem homosexuality 'unnatural'. It's common in nature, in various species.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Just because it is human nature to sin does not make it right for humans to sin.
I hope you aren't saying that man's behavior and actions should be based on those of a lowly beasts.

[quote name='Selena] It was an accepted part of ancient societies (Greece' date=' Rome, etc.), and is once again being reaccepted now.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: And where are the Greek and the Romans now? Their generation has been destroyed or has been greatly thinned out into the rest of the world, never to be a distinct nation again.

[quote name='Selena] Which I think is a good thing. To me' date=' it seems awfully wrong to restrict other people's rights just because you happen to disagree with it.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I am not restricting anyone's right to choose whom they wish to have relations with. I am in support of a bill that defines marriage as what it has always been defined as since the creation of it. Homosexuals have never had the right to be wed.

[quote name='Selena] You can't choose who you fall in love with. Most everyone's had a crush on someone they didn't intend to have a crush on. For some' date=' it's on those who are of the same gender.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: You can choose whom you fall in love with, just as you can choose whether or not to brush your teeth in the morning. A crush is based on physical appearances initially. If someone chooses not to take satisfaction in that physical attraction, then that one has chosen not to have a crush on that person.
That is no different than a married man choosing to be attracted to only his wife and no other woman.

[quote name='Selena] Homosexual couples can be just as loving and caring as Hetero couples' date=' and be just as kind and moral.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I agree. However, that doesn't mean that what they have is not sinful, wrong, and unnatural.

[quote=Selena] 'It will degrade society and if they adopt they'll breed a whole new army of queers!' Bullshit. Just because something is accepted doesn't mean that the majority of the population is going to have a massive sexuality conversion.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: It doesn't have to be sexual. It only has to be moral.
Also, homosexuals are more inclined to raise their children to be gay. Even if they are not, they still set the moral example. This is why homosexuals should not be able to adopt.

[quote name='Selena] Also' date=' as I said before, there's not a daaaamn thing wrong with it, in my mind. If a couple's gay- fine. Although I ask that with any couple, gay or straight.... don't do anything in front of me, will ya? Keep in the bedroom. And the bedroom's a private place where no one should have the right to interfere with.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I agree. Homosexuality, if chosen, should be kept in the privacy of one's own home and mind.

[quote name='Selena] If you're so worried that these 'sinners' will be going to hell' date=' leave it up to God to decide- isn't that what Christianity says anyway? Love everyone, and leave judgement up to God?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No. Christ says to spread his word to the entire world. He says to share the word of God with all and lead the lost to Christ so that they may be forgiven of their sins. I want to see homosexuals turn from those sinful ways and become born again Christians. It has happened in many former homosexual people already. However, homosexuals will never turn from those sins and accept Christ if they never realize that what they are doing is against God.

[quote name='Selena] People should be free to make their own choices in life' date=' and in terms of love, I think no one has the right to butt in and tell someone who they can and cannot love. It's wrong, it's controlling, and if you're so set on banning their unions I see no reason why we shouldn't ban straight unions.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Straight unions are not unnatural or against God's will. People are free to make their own choices, and I will not do anything to force them to make a different one. All I can do is tell them about Christ, and let God work in that person's heart. The problem is that those life choices lead to Hell, which gives even more reason to witness to others.

[quote=Selena] I really think it just comes down to an issue of 'I accept that' or 'I think that's gross and they shouldn't do it!'.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Man's opinion, or even his law ultimately has no authority over man. What I think is right and wrong is meaningless to another man who thinks different. Man cannot decide how man should live. Man uses nature as a reference and tries to reason what is right and wrong. Even so, the conclusion of what is right and wrong still has no authority over another man that chooses wrong or believes himself to be right. This is why God's law is the only one that can have authority over mankind. God created man and God knows all. He knows what is best for us. He holds the power to control all of this existence, and the infinite sea of other existences, which he has also created.
God's word is law. We must obey God, or else we will perish.

[quote=Selena] Just remember- the same can be said for people who follow the exact words of an ancient book that's been retranslated who knows how many times over.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: The Bible? Is that what you are referring to? The King James Version was translated from the original Greek and Hebrew to English, and that was the only translation that version of the Bible went through. From there it was mass produced by Gutenberg and has endured the ages longer than any other book ever created. His word shall never pass away.
Also, the Bible is God's word, which we know because God has instilled in each human a conscience that can see what is right and what is wrong. We know the Bible is God's word because of the righteousness in its words.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] But... gays can adopt' date=' or use a friend of the other gender. If it's a question of CHOOSING whether or not to have children, I don't think homosexuality is an issue.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: The question isn't in choosing, it's in ability. A homosexual couple is unable to create another life. Adopting a child conceived through a straight union or engaging in a straight union moves outside of homosexuality. Thus to obtain a child, the homosexual must forsake the lifestyle.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Oh yeah? So is your heterosexuality a choice? Problem here: I've never seen anyone who claims sexual orientation is a choice PROVE IT by' date=' say, going gay. There's also prodigious evidence for it being involuntary (I wouldn't jump to it being genetic, but you never know).[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I cannot choose to become homosexual because I know that it is sinful and wrong. However, I will share with you a scenario that is more applicable to me.
I have an attraction to women with red hair and green eyes. However, I don't find just any redheaded woman with green eyes to be attractive. That redheaded woman must have other qualities that I also find attractive. Sparing the physical aspects, which do matter in a long-term relationship, I will say that I also look for honesty, compassion, intelligence, determination, and faithfulness.
Now, if I find a woman that matches all of those qualities, I will be attracted to that woman. I will pursue her and engage her in courtship. However, if I find out that she is not a virgin, as I am, then all the attraction will disappear and I will no longer wish to have a relationship with her.

Why? What causes me to make this decision? How can I deny what I was supposedly born with that makes me think of her as the perfect woman? Choice. Choice of right and wrong. I know that it is not God's will for me to marry a woman that has given her innocence to another man. No matter how beautiful or perfect I find her on the outside, I will know that on the inside, she has committed adultery. I know that I am to marry a woman that has been waiting for her husband and will not break her commitment to him or to God, and that when we do marry, our love (and our wedding night) will be that much more special because of the decision to wait and deny the natural, yet sinful, impulses of the flesh.

I know it is too late to make a long point short, so I will add one more thing. The physical aspects that I described above are not the only ones that I will accept. I will accept a woman with blond hair, brown hair, blue eyes, green eyes, brown eyes, black eyes, light skinned, dark skinned, etc. However, I find some women with black hair unattractive. Will I choose to court a black haired woman if she has all the other qualities that I look for? Yes, I would, despite that one "turn off".

Now if you're still reading after all of that, my point is this. If I have all these standards, preferences and most importantly, convictions, then how can I compromise on any of them if all these were set at birth? It's because of choice. If I can choose what I am attracted to, then so can anyone with a will or a moral conscience.
There is no gene that determines what women's hair color I find attractive, just as there is no gene that determines what gender I find attractive. It is all a matter of choice, and morality.

[quote=Alakhriveion] You've got to live with it the same way Klansmen have to live with integrated schools and I have to live with you hating it.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I don't have to do anything of the sort. I can stand for morality and stand for unions between one man and one woman only.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] So' date=' working on the assumption that it's a choice, I suppose it makes sense that tolerance would lead to acceptance, and then to popularity, but I still don't see how this get us to the fall of society. If memory serves, the Greeks, on whose developments our society is based, were pretty damn gay. It's AMAZING they had time for geometry.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Where are the Greeks now? Theirs is a long lost civilization. Ours will be as well if we repeat their mistakes.

[quote=Alakhriveion] Where's the leap from homosexuality to general promiscuity? That's MTV's fault.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: It's in the Bible. Sodom and Gomorra began on the same ideal, and at the end of it all they were lying with beasts and took pleasure in the most perverse of things. Homosexuality will make sex appear as if it is nothing more than exercise to the youth. The youth are already emulating that mentality, which is why many high school teens have such trouble coping with life. Teens are being deceived into thinking that they are homosexual or bisexual, and they are being taught that it is OK to be that way. This is not just being forced on them through TV, but also through the public school system.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] What's the mechanism for this' date=' again? And you still haven't shown me how MJ being gay leads to you and me being gay.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Not us. The next generation. They will never convert us because we know, or rather I know, that the lifestyle is wrong. This is why they will target the youth, just as Hitler did.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Since there are so many logical holes in what you're saying' date=' I'm going to be disinclined to believe your assertion that it's rational.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Whether you think it is rational or not means nothing. Your branding of a moral stand as "blind hate" means nothing. What matters is the fact that homosexuality is wrong, and sinful. It always has been and always will be, and it is because God says so.

[quote=Mario Jr]There is is no rational explanation for fear and hatred... and stupidity.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: You hate rape, correct? You fear riding a bike into oncoming traffic, do you not? Aren't the explanations for those rational? Just because you have no sight of the big picture, or what effects that this issue has on the future, doesn't mean that there is no rational explanation. It only means that you cannot understand it.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] Emiko: you saying that is going against what the bible says about God being love' date=' and loving everyone. It also says that we were created imperfect due to the bad dicission of what Eve and Adam created from Satan. so being sterile is not "god's fault" but the fault of a person's imperfection. Thats almost as bad as saying "God wanted lil Johnny with him in heaven.." when a child or someone dies...[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Normally, God creates men and women so that they can bare children. In some cases he does not for specific reasons. That is God’s decision, and the couple is not at fault for that. It is just that their being unable to have children plays into God’s grand design. Homosexuality does not.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] Emiko:Actully I knew a guy who had homosexual tendancies' date=' but wanted to follow the bibles council so he prayed and read the bible every day to fight those urges...he hasnt once feel into temptation of pursuing a relationship with the same sex. I wont say that all homosexuals are genetic faults...but i believe in some cases as of his, there is a hormone that was extra or not present.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: If he has not fallen into that sin, then he is no longer homosexual. Some struggle through sins. Alcoholism is a difficult lifestyle to break away from because of proven physical dependencies. Despite that, choice can overcome even those addictions. Though some need God to help them and those people go through hardships in repenting, that too is God’s will. God sometimes makes it just hard enough to where the person will not want to go back into the lifestyle because he or she will then know how difficult it was to get out of it.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] Emiko: Plus' date=' it is not our job to judge people, we have an imperfect nature and are not qualified to judge each other. We only see what is on the outside, not the in....that is why God is perfect, he can read our hearts and our minds..he is the only one capiable of judging us perfectly. That is what is wrong with the world, people are to busy judging each other in a imperfect manner....if their was love then their would be no need of justice.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I don’t understand. God has told us that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. Also, we are not judging. What we are doing is bringing them the salvation message. That cannot happen unless they realize that they are sinners.

[quote=Kawaii Emiko] Emiko:but what do we know! I mean this was a thread about marrage and it went into a dispute about rather people of the same sex should be allowed to get married... Another judging thread that shouldnt of been allowed to go this far...[/quote]

Dai Grepher: This is only a discussion.

[Goose]

I unoficially name myself the Contro QuizMaster, so here are my 6 questions for you all to ponder, and shoot down at will. Todays topic is Homosexuality.

One of the most discussed issues in our blessed Contro here, it seems that its time to ask a few questions. I feel that if we can ask these questions, then more people may be able to undertstand the opinions of others.


1. What do you define as Homosexuality?

2. Do you believe in homosexual unions or gay marriage?

3. Do you think Homosexuality is a Sin?

4. Do you believe that being Homosexual is genetic?

5. Do you believe Gay adoption is morally right?

6. Do you believe that being Homosexual is unnatural?


Now, remember Kids, we must respect eachothers opinions.

[Oberon Storm]

I am not restricting anyone's right to choose whom they wish to have relations with. I am in support of a bill that defines marriage as what it has always been defined as since the creation of it. Homosexuals have never had the right to be wed.

You're in support of a bill that directly contradicts the Constitution. For the first time we will be restricting the actions of a minority. The Constitution was created to protect the minority. I have no hard eveidence, as I am sure you do not have any yourself, but marriage wasn't just created with the emergence of the three big religions. I'm pretty sure the Bill of Rights said somewhere about the protection of rights not specificaly mentioned. Oh yeah, the Ninth.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

They do have the right to marry. Pass this amendment and you might as well throw out the entire Constitution.

You can choose whom you fall in love with, just as you can choose whether or not to brush your teeth in the morning. A crush is based on physical appearances initially. If someone chooses not to take satisfaction in that physical attraction, then that one has chosen not to have a crush on that person.
That is no different than a married man choosing to be attracted to only his wife and no other woman.

What a heap of shit.

It doesn't have to be sexual. It only has to be moral. Also, homosexuals are more inclined to raise their children to be gay. Even if they are not, they still set the moral example. This is why homosexuals should not be able to adopt.

No. They raise them to be more tolerant. Tolerance is the moral example set.

I cannot choose to become homosexual because I know that it is sinful and wrong. However, I will share with you a scenario that is more applicable to me.
I have an attraction to women with red hair and green eyes. However, I don't find just any redheaded woman with green eyes to be attractive. That redheaded woman must have other qualities that I also find attractive. Sparing the physical aspects, which do matter in a long-term relationship, I will say that I also look for honesty, compassion, intelligence, determination, and faithfulness.
Now, if I find a woman that matches all of those qualities, I will be attracted to that woman. I will pursue her and engage her in courtship. However, if I find out that she is not a virgin, as I am, then all the attraction will disappear and I will no longer wish to have a relationship with her.

Why? What causes me to make this decision? How can I deny what I was supposedly born with that makes me think of her as the perfect woman? Choice. Choice of right and wrong. I know that it is not God's will for me to marry a woman that has given her innocence to another man. No matter how beautiful or perfect I find her on the outside, I will know that on the inside, she has committed adultery. I know that I am to marry a woman that has been waiting for her husband and will not break her commitment to him or to God, and that when we do marry, our love (and our wedding night) will be that much more special because of the decision to wait and deny the natural, yet sinful, impulses of the flesh.

I know it is too late to make a long point short, so I will add one more thing. The physical aspects that I described above are not the only ones that I will accept. I will accept a woman with blond hair, brown hair, blue eyes, green eyes, brown eyes, black eyes, light skinned, dark skinned, etc. However, I find some women with black hair unattractive. Will I choose to court a black haired woman if she has all the other qualities that I look for? Yes, I would, despite that one "turn off".

Now if you're still reading after all of that, my point is this. If I have all these standards, preferences and most importantly, convictions, then how can I compromise on any of them if all these were set at birth? It's because of choice. If I can choose what I am attracted to, then so can anyone with a will or a moral conscience.
There is no gene that determines what women's hair color I find attractive, just as there is no gene that determines what gender I find attractive. It is all a matter of choice, and morality.

You didn't answer or prove anything here.

Homosexuality will make sex appear as if it is nothing more than exercise to the youth.

Not homosexuality's fault.

The youth are already emulating that mentality, which is why many high school teens have such trouble coping with life.

You're over simplifying it.

Teens are being deceived into thinking that they are homosexual or bisexual, and they are being taught that it is OK to be that way. This is not just being forced on them through TV, but also through the public school system.

OK. So tolerance and acceptance is bad? I guess it's safe to bring back segragation.

Not us. The next generation. They will never convert us because we know, or rather I know, that the lifestyle is wrong. This is why they will target the youth, just as Hitler did.

You still have not demonstrated how this happens. This is also conspiracy theory crap.

You hate rape, correct? You fear riding a bike into oncoming traffic, do you not? Aren't the explanations for those rational? Just because you have no sight of the big picture, or what effects that this issue has on the future, doesn't mean that there is no rational explanation. It only means that you cannot understand it.

Rape is performing sexual relations with someone against their will. To ride a bike into on coming traffic not only puts yourself in danger, it puts the other motorists in danger. You don't like homosexuality because some invisible man in the sky says its bad.

[Alakhriveion]

I cannot choose to become homosexual because I know that it is sinful and wrong. However, I will share with you a scenario that is more applicable to me.
I have an attraction to women with red hair and green eyes. However, I don't find just any redheaded woman with green eyes to be attractive. That redheaded woman must have other qualities that I also find attractive. Sparing the physical aspects, which do matter in a long-term relationship, I will say that I also look for honesty, compassion, intelligence, determination, and faithfulness.
Now, if I find a woman that matches all of those qualities, I will be attracted to that woman. I will pursue her and engage her in courtship. However, if I find out that she is not a virgin, as I am, then all the attraction will disappear and I will no longer wish to have a relationship with her.

Why? What causes me to make this decision? How can I deny what I was supposedly born with that makes me think of her as the perfect woman? Choice. Choice of right and wrong. I know that it is not God's will for me to marry a woman that has given her innocence to another man. No matter how beautiful or perfect I find her on the outside, I will know that on the inside, she has committed adultery.

Actually, that's not adultery, it's fornication.

I know that I am to marry a woman that has been waiting for her husband and will not break her commitment to him or to God, and that when we do marry, our love (and our wedding night) will be that much more special because of the decision to wait and deny the natural, yet sinful, impulses of the flesh.

I know it is too late to make a long point short, so I will add one more thing. The physical aspects that I described above are not the only ones that I will accept. I will accept a woman with blond hair, brown hair, blue eyes, green eyes, brown eyes, black eyes, light skinned, dark skinned, etc. However, I find some women with black hair unattractive. Will I choose to court a black haired woman if she has all the other qualities that I look for? Yes, I would, despite that one "turn off".

Now if you're still reading after all of that, my point is this. If I have all these standards, preferences and most importantly, convictions, then how can I compromise on any of them if all these were set at birth? It's because of choice. If I can choose what I am attracted to, then so can anyone with a will or a moral conscience.
There is no gene that determines what women's hair color I find attractive, just as there is no gene that determines what gender I find attractive. It is all a matter of choice, and morality.

You SAID you don't deny physical matters are important. What if, physically, you're looking for a man? I suppose you could ask them to marry a woman anyway, but then you're asking all homosexuals to do something you admit is beyond your abilities- and those of everyone I've ever met.

I don't have to do anything of the sort. I can stand for morality and stand for unions between one man and one woman only.

First off, grammatically, you stand for their only being one marriage. What about the other six billion people? Secondly, too bad. Klansmen can stand against integration, but it has to happen anyway. Cannibals can stand for cannibalism, but it's still not going to be legal. You can stand against Equal Marriage, but that has to happen, too.

Where are the Greeks now? Theirs is a long lost civilization. Ours will be as well if we repeat their mistakes.

Actually, it was the Church that did it. Sure, it could have been burning books and banning science, but one of the big changes they made was banning the gay stuff. Once they lightened up on that, we had the enlightenment. Gosh, it's almost as though tolerance and development go hand in hand.

It's in the Bible. Sodom and Gomorra began on the same ideal, and at the end of it all they were lying with beasts and took pleasure in the most perverse of things. Homosexuality will make sex appear as if it is nothing more than exercise to the youth. The youth are already emulating that mentality, which is why many high school teens have such trouble coping with life. Teens are being deceived into thinking that they are homosexual or bisexual, and they are being taught that it is OK to be that way. This is not just being forced on them through TV, but also through the public school system.

OK, first off, if you'd READ the freakin' Bible, Sodom and Gomorrah wern't destroyed for homosexuality. They were destroyed for inhospitability, incest, attempted gang rape, accomplished gang rape, blasphemy, more incest and rape, still more with the rape, and also rape. I mean, from the story, rape was like baseball for these people. But I digress. How will homosexuality reduce the gravity of sex? How are they being tricked in to thinking they're gay?

Not us. The next generation. They will never convert us because we know, or rather I know, that the lifestyle is wrong. This is why they will target the youth, just as Hitler did.

OK, I'm suspending Godwin's Law for the rest of this thread because I think it's an important issue.

Whether you think it is rational or not means nothing. Your branding of a moral stand as "blind hate" means nothing. What matters is the fact that homosexuality is wrong, and sinful. It always has been and always will be, and it is because God says so.

Your point? So's killing. I don't see you getting in to such a flap over the Death Penalty. Pork's also a sin (Same book as the ban on gay sex), but I don't see you boycotting whoever the hell makes Jell-O.
No, wait, they also make Kosher Jell-O. Boycott Skittles.

[Emiko]

 Pork's also a sin (Same book as the ban on gay sex), but I don't see you boycotting whoever the hell makes Jell-O.
No, wait, they also make Kosher Jell-O.  Boycott Skittles.

Actully if you want to go that far, any animal with a split foot and chews it's own cud is a sin...

"beef....its a sin for dinner."

*giggles*

also I believe crustations are a sin to eat also, for they are dirty or something like that....im not to sure but i thought i heard someone say something about shrimp once.

I cannot choose to become homosexual because I know that it is sinful and wrong. However, I will share with you a scenario that is more applicable to me.
I have an attraction to women with red hair and green eyes. However, I don't find just any redheaded woman with green eyes to be attractive. That redheaded woman must have other qualities that I also find attractive. Sparing the physical aspects, which do matter in a long-term relationship, I will say that I also look for honesty, compassion, intelligence, determination, and faithfulness.
Now, if I find a woman that matches all of those qualities, I will be attracted to that woman. I will pursue her and engage her in courtship. However, if I find out that she is not a virgin, as I am, then all the attraction will disappear and I will no longer wish to have a relationship with her.

what about if she changed her path in life and is serving God? Would you still see her unfit? Thats really judgemental if you did

[Alakhriveion]

Actully if you want to go that far, any animal with a split foot and chews it's own cud is a sin...

No... it's the other way around, it needs to chew cud and have split hooves. "Pork, the other white sin."

also I believe crustations are a sin to eat also, for they are dirty or something like that....im not to sure but i thought i heard someone say something about shrimp once.

Yeah, no seafood that doesn't have fins and scales.

[SOAP]

Dai Grepher: You hate rape, correct? You fear riding a bike into oncoming traffic, do you not? Aren't the explanations for those rational? Just because you have no sight of the big picture, or what effects that this issue has on the future, doesn't mean that there is no rational explanation. It only means that you cannot understand it.

Fearing something when immenient danger is present is totally different then fearing or hating people who you just don't undestand at all. That's when fear turns into phobia. Trying to rationalize it by coming up with excuses like "well homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle filled with rape and drugs" is just a defense mechanism people like you use because they can't cope with gay people around them. It would be the same if white person feared black people because they've seen gang fights where [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of black men and women died killing each other for no reason at all. Just because there were cases where some gays did some very bad, irresonsible stuff doesn't it's the same all around. Rape, drug abuse, unsafe sex. These things can happen to anyone, gay and straight, male and female, black and white, young and old.

Another defense mechanism people use to deal with homosexuality is projection. People feel uncomfortable around gay people. They don't know why they feel the way they do. Instead of looking for answers within they cast their blame on gay people. "Well they're nasty, filthy people. It's their fault I feel uncomfortable. They're the problem. Not me."

You, and people like you, might feel you must save innocent people from getting sucked into what you think is a dangerous lifestyle by passing these anti-Gay bills and voting against Gay Marriage. But all y'all are doing is making everyone's lives needlessly miserable.

[SOAP]

I guess I'm the one who has to say this: This topic is a nice idea but we already have two other threads that go deep into this subject. We don't need a third. While it would be nice to have thread just for this kid of discussion but from my personal experience when you have members like me that are gay on a debate forum, nearly every other topic turns into a gay debate sooner or later. It's like a curse or something.

[Goose]

Yeah, the idea of this was to allow people to vent their feelings in here, and leave my marriage thread to be about just that, marriage. It wont stop people, but its worth a try.

The debate going on in the other thread was a bit one sided, so I thought that if I could get everybody to put their opinons in here, then it could be a bit more balanced.