117 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Well, to make things easier don't bother responding to my posts. It's not that I care or anything, it's just I don't care anymore. Everyone just wants their own "trut" these days.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

actully, the greek word used for man in those scriptures refers to mankind. I believe it to be 'Adham'. (The name Adam refers to mankind or earthly man )

Didn't arunma in an earlier thread say that the Greek word was arskenots?

the Apostle Paul (or Saint Paul to Catholics)was a disciple of Jesus, who knew him....at least if we are talking about the same guy.

Nope. Paul saw Jesus appear to him on the road to Damascus. He never knew Jesus in real life, yet claimed he knew Jesus better than anyone else.

Actully the bible does state that killing an unborn child is a sin. First of all it clearly states that God views every life as precious in his eyes. ( Ps. 139. 13-16) "You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother...your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all it's parts were down in writing." (ex. 21: 22, 23) "in case men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregant woman and her child....if a fatal accedent should occur, then you must give soul for soul." the original hebrw test refers to a fatal accident to either mother or child...

Hm... Psalms, eh? Not exactly law, though is it? And who is talking in that particular Psalm?

I find it strange, however, (I'm not talking about you, however) that people can find something obscure like that but do not even acknowledge the fact that Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you."

As the one comment about why should Christ do anything to help christians....the bible actully says the only way to be saved is by calling upon the name of the father..or God. So it isn't Christ who will save anyone, it's god...or well you know...It also says the people who say their christians yet dont act the part are false witnesses to his power...meaning a Christian should act like Jesus before Jesus would do anything to help him...if you want to look at it that way. And there are [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people in this world who say they are Chrisians, but are cruel and vindictive people who are looking out for their own interests...

Jesus was nothing like that...the was kind and loving who didn't judge people or say "Your not gonna be in my kingdom cause your a homo!" etc...He did set a example for us to follow in hopes that we would...leaving our life's path up to us was the best thing he could of done.

Exactly. My friend, he doesn't like Christianity because of what Christians did to his country (India) and its culture, but he loves Jesus. Jesus is a loveable guy, so it would make sense to live like he did wouldn't it?

[Dryth]

(ex. 21: 22, 23) "in case men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregant woman and her child....if a fatal accedent should occur, then you must give soul for soul." the original hebrw test refers to a fatal accident to either mother or child...

I hate to be pedantic, but the original hebrew text also doesn't use ellipses to mask conditional cases that completely change the nature of the quotation, and I assume they wouldn't have even if they were part of the language at the time.

[Emiko]

hm...I could of sworn that Paul was there, but maybe i am confused ^_^''' that happens [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]..

[Wolf O'Donnell]

hm...I could of sworn that Paul was there, but maybe i am confused ^_^''' that happens [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]..

That's okay.

According to this site, most of the disciples weren't even named in the original texts:
http://www.bibletexts.com/glossary/thetwelve.htm

[Octorok]

if they were one soul then how is that possible?

This is a thing that is divine and that cannot be understood by mankind as a result. Just like how God does not control what you do, but knows what you will do. Heaven is yet another example of this, if it is some other plane, how do we get there. Sometimes you just have to stop thinking and have faith. Anything is possible that is done by the Lord, for he is master of everything, and can change whatever he wants, and be whatever he wants.

[arunma]

Nope. Paul saw Jesus appear to him on the road to Damascus. He never knew Jesus in real life, yet claimed he knew Jesus better than anyone else.

OK, I'll bite. Where did Paul say that he knows Jesus better than anyone else? But he did say that he is the least of the apostles (1 Corinthians 15:9).

By the way, the resurrected Christ is "real life." The whole message of the resurrection was that it was a physical event. Jesus isn't a ghost. He's a human being with flesh and blood, and if he appeared to Paul, it would have been in the flesh. In fact, the "Spirit of Jesus" is specifically mentioned twice in the Bible (Acts 16:7 and Phillipians 1:19). The resurrection isn't portrayed as an ethereal or ghastly event, and so Paul's experience counts as real life.

Exactly. My friend, he doesn't like Christianity because of what Christians did to his country (India) and its culture, but he loves Jesus. Jesus is a loveable guy, so it would make sense to live like he did wouldn't it?

If you'd like, you can tell your friend that I consider this belief rubbish. As you know, I'm also an Indian, so I think I have at least some authority to speak on this matter. Christians have been in India since Thomas the apostle got there, so it's not as if the Europeans introduced the religion. In fact, the East India Trading Company discouraged missionaries from coming to India. I'm glad that your Indian friend loves Jesus, but what he says about Christianity sounds a lot like much of the Hindu propaganda that I've heard. The idea that "Christians" destroyed India is false. There has always been a Christian population in India. The British don't represent Christendom.

By the way, I would remind you that right now, a wave of nationalism is sweeping through India. I've heard quite a bit of it, and it smacks of ethnocentrism. With the advent of Indian nationlism, it has become fashionable to attack Christianity, which is seen as a "White Man's religion." Now, I have no idea if this is where your friend gets his ideas, because your single sentence is all I have to go on. However, please bear in mind that many Hindu objections to Christianity are based on ethnocentrism, racism, and the absolutely false belief that Christianity is the religion of the white, caucasian man.

[thabto81]

Maybe it's just me but Wolf didn't mention anything about Britain or Europeans at all. All he said was that his friend loves Jesus but dislikes Christianity. He mentioned nothing about India and the backlash it's having against everything european. What you said may be true but is completely irrelevant to the debate at hand.

And another thing, it's not your place to completely dismiss this third person's opinion as mere rubbish. It might come as a shock to you, but not everybody believes what you believe. Besides, I could easily dismiss everything you've said thus far as rubbish simply because I don't believe in organized religion and you do.

[arunma]

You know, I did give an explanation as to why I thought that the belief is rubbish.

[thabto81]

I know you did. And I responded by dismissing what you said as rubbish.

Security in one's own choice of attraction is not the issue here. The security issue is founded in mankind's future, and what society will accept and practice when our children become adults and when they are trying to raise their own children. I fear that society will practice and promote a self-destructive lifestyle or path in life that will ultimately lead to the devastation of America or worse, the entire world.

I would like you to provide one piece of evidence that shows ANY nation being toppled by homosexuality. Of course, this would require you to open the history books Dryth was so polite to point you towards, but then that would mean you would actually have to do something someone else requested of you thus giving the impression that you're giving into their argument. My, my. What a dilemma. Do you do what Homosexuality-Defender A asks you to do and prove your absurd claim that gay marriage will bring down America or do you ignore him and get into a rough and tumble with Homosexuality-Defender B on solipsism through monotheism. Choices, choices. So many choices. But then, you're all about choices aren't you Dai?

[SOAP]

How did this discussion get into whether or not Paul's a disciple, abortion, and racism in India? Further more:

Actully the bible does state that killing an unborn child is a sin. First of all it clearly states that God views every life as precious in his eyes. ( Ps. 139. 13-16) "You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother...your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all it's parts were down in writing." (ex. 21: 22, 23) "in case men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregant woman and her child....if a fatal accedent should occur, then you must give soul for soul." the original hebrw test refers to a fatal accident to either mother or child...

Did the even know about embryos back then!?

*cracks up a Bible*

[Dryth]

*cracks up a Bible*

Still looking for a version of the Bible using the term "embryo" in Psalms 139 myself. I left that off of my previous ellipsis complaint for having yet to find it. As far as I know the term "embryo" doesn't come up at all in most, if not all, modern translations.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

How did this discussion get into whether or not Paul's a disciple, abortion, and racism in India? Further more:

The first two were issues I raised in order to try and counter Dai's points and prove them to be foolish or at least, far too simplistic. I don't know about India. I just said my friend liked Christ despite not liking Christianity, proving that Jesus is a very likeable guy.

There isn't much hate behind his motives, but I think he dislikes the changes that the British Victorians brought with them when they conquered India, some of which was influenced by Christian views.

Did the even know about embryos back then!?

*cracks up a Bible*

No idea... but seeing as how primitive their notions of birth was (they thought the sperm was the seed and that women played no part in reproduction except for incubating the seed), I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

Then again, ancient cultures such as India and Rome used to have plastic surgery so maybe they did.

[Alakhriveion]

OK, so everyone knows, the psalm reads:

13 For you created my inmost being;

you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

your works are wonderful,

I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you

when I was made in the secret place.

When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.

All the days ordained for me

were written in your book

before one of them came to be.

[SOAP]

That sounds pretty anti-abortion-ish to me. Heh, I like the Bible again, yeah.

[arunma]

I know you did. And I responded by dismissing what you said as rubbish.

All right, then tell me why my belief is rubbish. I made an effort to refute Wolf's friend. Surely you can do the same for me! And if we go off topic, don't worry about it, we can split the thread.

[thabto81]

I thought I did...

"Maybe it's just me but Wolf didn't mention anything about Britain or Europeans at all. All he said was that his friend loves Jesus but dislikes Christianity. He mentioned nothing about India and the backlash it's having against everything european. What you said may be true but is completely irrelevant to the debate at hand. "

Oh yeah. There it is. Any questions?

[Dai Grepher]

[quote name='Alakhriveion] What' date=' then is the difference? Lust and physical attraction are one and the same. It's also not something you can fake, as it's completely internal.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Physical attraction is what you find pleasing to the eye. Lust is the desire to have sexual relations with a person. The first is what you like to see in a person’s appearance, and the second is the want to have sex with the person.
And which are you talking about not being able to fake, lust or attraction? It doesn’t matter. Attraction is a choice and lust, while indeed an internal reaction of all human beings, can be suppressed.

[quote=Alakhriveion] As is everything.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: The world was not created by man. Man did not create man. God’s power can be seen in everything around us.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] This doesn't follow. Not all homosexuals are promiscuous' date=' just as not all heterosexuals are, and diseases are moved easily with any kind of sex- or on a toilet seat.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I realize that not all those choosing to live the lifestyle are promiscuous. The lifestyle itself promotes promiscuity, just as the swinger lifestyle does. There are many heterosexual lifestyles that also promote it, I am not denying that, but I am pointing out that homosexuality does promote that because it is doing something that is against the norm. It leads to the idea of breaking the norm of being with one person. That increases the risk of spreading diseases. The fact that many other lifestyles are just as dangerous does not make the lifestyle of discussion any less dangerous.

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Last I checked' date=' DG, you hadn't studied it, either. Prohibitions on homosexuality are part of the same set of laws you say don't apply when it means you can't have Skittles.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: You are mistaken about that. I have even given solid evidence that homosexuality was still considered evil even in the New Testament (Romans Ch. 1).

[quote name='Alakhriveion] Natural? Of course. Healthy? Well' date=' they do it in hospitals, but no. Right? I don't think so, but I'm no authority on the subject. Still herion and anal Sex are pretty different. Herion, for example, kills you, and anal sex doesn't.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Heroin does not kill immediately, and its first affects bring the user to an extreme euphoria, but just because it starts out good doesn’t mean it is good. Injecting or smoking drugs is not natural, just as drinking is not natural. When those toxins enter the body, the body immediately starts to fight it or try to expel it from the person’s system. The only difference between heroin and homosexuality is that one poisons the body and the other poisons the mind.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] You know what? I'll take you over human anatomy later. Now would be going completely off topic.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Fine. If you know this issue well, then what are those bundles of nerves called?

[quote=Son of Jor-El] Once again. Homosexuality did not creat or spread HIV/AIDS. Good ol' fashion sex did. Stop placing the blame on homosexuals.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: The virus was originally found in the homosexual population.

[quote name='Son of Jor-El] Once again' date=' provide evidence of this so called "homosexual agenda". Otherwise I ask you to stop or I'll just refering to the oppression of homosexuals as the Christian agenda and put it in just as sinister a light.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I have given evidence, but I will state it again. I have found some web articles since then.

http://www.afa.net/h...icle.asp?id=115
This is evidence of the media’s bias in favor of the homosexual agenda, and it is evidence of the agenda trying to implement their own teachings and ideals into the schools in order to corrupt the youth.

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS00D2
A very long but enlightening read. Written by a former lesbian, this article covers many scientific studies that search for a gay gene. The Homosexual Agenda wants people to believe in a gene that determines who they are, so that they will be accepted and so that young people will be confused into believing they were born that way and that they cannot change.

http://www.glaad.org...2739d33dcb77a2b
This is evidence of GLAAD controlling the shows that FOX airs. They have an opinion of what programs are shown and not shown, but does FOX extent the offer to organizations that stand for Family Values? No. GLAAD had FOX cancel the show in the article because it made fun of homosexuality, not because it was inappropriate.

http://forums.gamewi...ad.php?t=371431
However, The Simpson’s recently aired an episode where Marge’s sister Patty came out to be lesbian. GLAAD was thrilled about shows like that on Fox, but don’t want anything that speaks against homosexuality. Q Eye for the Straight Guy, Q as Folk, and the L Word are among other shows that GLAAD is thrilled to have on TV, and that is because it will help them change people into thinking they are homosexual, or at least make people think there is nothing wrong with the lifestyle.

There is also the Day of Silence in Schools that promote the lifestyle under the guise of being against harassment.
I’ll look up more information if you still have more questions.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] Please provide links to anything you have read regard these cover ups. And would it make you feel any better if it was women that showed men how to dress more fashionably? Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is not about making everyone gay. It is about fashion. Plain and simple.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: No, it is about turning them into emasculate men. A show with women telling men how to look would be better, since it is women that men are supposed to be attracting in the first place.
It has been a long time since I have read that particular article on the net, so I don’t remember the link.

[quote=Son of Jor-El] Abd you claim to not want to oppress or hate these people?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Correct. Not being acceptant of homosexual relations does not cause anyone to hate them as people, just the choice they make.

[quote name='Son of Jor-El] No' date=' they are being denied things that should never have been denied.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Again I ask, what is being denied of them? Marriage? It isn’t. They never had the right to get married in the first place, and they shouldn’t because it infringes on other people’s rights and the union was not created for that lifestyle.

[quote name='Zythe] I'm straight but I'd like to poke my head in and state my opinion. Dai Grepher' date=' reread your own posts - you come across as a total biggot.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I accept everyone’s view as being their opinion. I disagree with them. A bigot is one who does not accept views because of stubbornness. I have scientific evidence, logic, and God to support what I believe. I have reason to disagree. That does not make me a bigot.

[quote=Kawaii Emiko] Dai Grepher you can argue until your blue in the face about why homosexuality is wrong...but when it comes down to it 50% of the people on this forum might be on your side but they will stick to the side of the other 50% because they dont want to judge there dicission.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: My goal is to offer a strong defense of morality and show why this lifestyle is against morality. My goal is to protect the sanctity of marriage, and show why homosexual marriage is wrong and will destroy our society. Mostly, I am bringing these dangers to everyone’s attention in hopes that they will realize this so that the destructive path can be avoided.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] Like myself' date=' I totally agree with you that homosexuality is a sin according to what it says in the bible "Men who lie with Men will not inheirit the kingdom" but you know what, it's not my choice about what they do. And the people on this forum are awesome and nice about it. But when someone tries to inforce their opinion about what is right and wrong they end up being an ass hole who gets on everyone's nerves.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I understand that people don’t like to hear how wrong they are, but I am not trying to dictate to them how they should live. I am only identifying what is right from what is wrong.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] I agree with Chik' date=' Xere's is an outstanding person for standing up for what she believes. By the way, I dont believe in Hell, but I believe in God, does that make me a bad person? I do believe in Heaven...but I dont believe everyone will go their when they die. I dont believe in the immortal soul, does that make me a bad person?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: It is not my place to make that judgment.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] I married a guy who doesnt share my beliefs' date=' i fornicated with him for seven months before I chose to live my life for God, I repented and I believe God forgave me.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: If you are saved, I believe he did as well.

[quote=Kawaii Emiko] If someone asks me what I believe I will tell them, but I dont shove my thoughts down their throats telling them that they are wrong. Does that make me a bad person? I believe God is a loving God, who doesnt want anyone to be destroyed, but to attain everylasting life, does that make me a bad person?
If, God is gonna destroy everyone who is homosexual, without reading thier hearts, wouldnt that go against EVERYTHING the bible says about God being a loving God?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: No. God is loving, but God is also just. If anyone does not accept Christ into his or her life they will not be forgiven of their sins, and when they die they will be sent to Hell.

[quote name='Kawaii Emiko] Maybe' date=' the reason why people give up on believeing in God is because they are sick of everyone saying: "That's wrong" "No that's wrong"[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Well, like I said before. I am not the one who says what is right and what is wrong. Man cannot say that. Only God can.

[quote=Kawaii Emiko] Im taking it that you are a very religious person....but do you really know what you believe? or do you believe what you are told to believe by your parents or preacher?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I know that I am saved and that God is with me through the Holy Spirit. I know this because I have accepted Christ into my life, and I know God exists because He has spoken to me when I’ve prayed to Him.

[quote name='Mario Jr] He also doesn't seem to know what tolerance is. Tolerance doesn't mean anything goes. Just because we allow things to change in our society doesn't mean our values will go down the drain. In Tolerance' date=' a fair middle ground should always be drawn. Not too liberal. Not to confined either. If that middle ground is obscured and society swings too far in either direction, then, yes, society WILL collapse.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Tolerance is not going out and slandering, harassing, or inflicting harm on homosexuals.
Acceptance is believing that homosexuality is right.
Homosexuals want acceptance, not tolerance. Tolerance was just another step toward acceptance. Acceptance is another step toward superiority.

[quote name='Wanchimaera] Even if you believe that homosexuality is a sin' date=' you have to realize that it's not the only sin out there. I personally can't bring myself to condone such behavior, but pointing the finger at the homosexual community fits the message of pulling the splinter from your brother's eye ignoring the log in yours. I've got my own struggles and shortcomings. I am not in a position to judge.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I am in no way saying that homosexuality is our biggest or only problem. I am saying it is one of many that should be fixed if we are to become a stronger society. I don’t deny that there are other problems, but this topic is about homosexuality. Right now, we are discussing the topic.

[quote name='Mario Jr] Being straight isn't all that great either. Any kind of lifestyle has it's up's and down's and they vary from from person to person' date=' society to society. Most of the inherent problems in homosexuality comes from the fact it was once done in secrecy and with some gays it still is. Obviously any lifestyle that's done in secrecy can lead up to dangerous--drugs, rape, aids. However, lately it's been brought into the light and the problems are getting less and less.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: All relationships have their ups and downs, true, but homosexuality has more adverse downs and not enough ups. If lifestyles like this are brought into the light and accepted, then other lifestyles like pedophilia and bestiality will arise seeking that same acceptance.

[quote=Mario Jr] And isn't love a natural response to? Why can it only be lust or confusion?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Love is not a sin, even if it is between two people of the same gender. When it crosses the line into the physical and sexual aspects, then it is a sin.

[quote=Mario Jr] Good. Then shut up. Let His Word speak for itself.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Excuse me, that is uncalled for. Up until now you have been very respectful and I have appreciated it, but there is no need to be rude especially since I have been courteous and respectful to everyone here. His word cannot speak for itself to people who will not read it or to those that twist it’s meaning to fit his or her own ideals.

[quote name='Mario Jr] I don't see what being gay has to do with not being any of those things. I've known gays that are courteous' date=' appropriate, respectful, and well mannered. Aside from my gay sex life, or lackthereof really, I'm so polite, quiet and mild-mannered girls can't believe I'm actually gay. So I don't know what it is about gays you find obscene.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: If you act as you say you do, then no one should have a problem with you. The thing most people dislike is when homosexual men act like women, talk like women, or lisp their ‘S’s. Flamboyancy is something that they should not display in public, but if they should, people should be tolerant of it. That doesn’t people who dislike it are wrong however.

[quote name='Mario Jr] If by obscene' date=' you mean gays kissing and holding hands in public then all I can say is... grow up! Unless their kids around, asking gays not openly express their affection--especially when straight couples do the same stuff--is just plain bigotry.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Actually, no it isn’t. I agree that same gender couples should not do that either, but for same gender couples to do it is worse because homosexuality is still unnatural. That should not be tolerated.

[quote name='Mario Jr] How about the right to live their life without someone shoving their beliefs down their throats. You think it's obscene how gays act' date=' well it's obscene to us to have religious folks contantly calling them immoral, sinful, and abominations against God. Try walking a mile in our shoes. Imagine how you'd feel if you're a ten-year-old kid, and all your life people keep calling you all those things? Imagine how you'd feel when you got older, and you've been brainwashed into thinking that God could never love a faggot like you. Well that was me. I've finally came to terms with who I am and where I stand with God. Why can't you. Why can't you just let us live?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I don’t condone the act of slandering homosexuals, because that turns them away from God. However, in a peaceful discussion such as this one, the claim that homosexuality is wrong is perfectly acceptable. Also keep in mind that I do not hate any person that makes that choice, I only hate the choice because it is a sin. Like I said before, I am not the one who says what is a sin and what is not, God is. I am agreeing with God.

[quote name='Mario Jr] Last time I checked' date=' roomates ≠ a loving couple.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Then why not be content with the title of roommates?

[quote name='Mario Jr] Yes' date=' because Tolerance, Acceptance, and Progress can only cast our society back into the shadows.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: When it is tolerance, acceptance, and progress of a sinful lifestyle, yes.

[quote name='Mario Jr] And theology aside' date=' there's no real arguement against homosexuality either. You claim that homosexuality is wrong because it's just a physical attraction. But then you say the only way to have a meaningful relationship is if there's a man and woman, thus boiling relationships down to what's in their pants as opposed to what's in their hearts.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, a meaningful relationship happens between a man and a woman who love each other for who they are, and marry so that they can share each other’s bodies. Homosexuals, assuming they look past physical appearances, choose to seek love in their own gender. If that is the case, then they can just as easily choose to love a person of the opposite gender for the qualities they seek. Thus, the homosexual relationship is based on the physical, and thus an unnatural sharing of bodies.

[quote=Mario Jr] At least in a gay couple they can look past gentilia and recognize what's solely in their hearts. It is not a physicla attraction so much as it's an emotional attraction.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: If that were the case, then they could look for love in the opposite gender. If it were based on emotion, then love would be found in the opposite rather than the same. The only thing that makes them seek love in the same gender is the physical.

[quote name='Mario Jr] The gentilias might not match but their hearts do and that's all that matters. You might think it's wrong and you have every right to believe so. You can claim how God backs you up in your opinions but at the end of the day' date=' they're just your opinions. And quite frankly, we're tired of hearing them.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: That is your opinion. The truth is that God considers homosexuality to be a sin. I believe as God commands.
Theology aside, the argument against homosexuality is still strong based on nature, conscience, science, and logic. Two of the same gender cannot reproduce. Many people see that lifestyle as repulsive and perverted. No gene that determines sexual orientation exists, and if it did, natural selection would have left it behind since homosexuals tend not to reproduce. People who have chosen to be gay have also chosen to be straight again.
The argument isn’t made any less factual or correct by the omission of God. It only loses its authority figure.

[quote name='Mario Jr] OKay' date=' heroine comes from outside the human body. The male G-spot is part of the male anatomy. If God did not want it to be stimulated that way then why would it be there? God does not make mistakes.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden?
The fact that it is located in the place where fecal matter is expelled from makes it clear that it is not for the reason you believe.
It also doesn’t matter that heroin is from outside the human body, because another male’s appendage is also. Heroin is a chemical that stimulates nerves in the brain to release more dopamine. It is a manipulation of the body much like male homosexuality is.

[quote=Xeres] 1. I feel that I have always had a certain affinity for those of the same gender. Though, to be fair, I've never decided love for someone based on gender. Gender has always been an afterthought. I'm getting off-track. No, I don't believe I 'chose' to be this way. I would not choose something which creates such a social stigma, and such hate and violence towards my person.

Dai Grepher: 1. a. How much hate and violence has been directed toward you based on this?
b. Who did it come from?
c. Can you give an example?

[quote=Xeres] 2. Yes, 10 years was when I first affirmed that I did indeed feel a deeper attraction towards women than was 'normal'.
a. Yes, as sexual education taught me. I was aware my affections were 'wrong' and 'abnormal' in the eyes of society. I'll admit my thoughts on both were not as developed as they are now, but I was aware of both love and sexuality.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: b. Did you ever think at that age that what society said was normal was correct or incorrect?
c. Did you have guidance through this issue, or is it something you dealt with yourself?

[quote name='Xeres] 3. I do not believe so. I've been equally exposed to both genders' date=' never faced ill from one more than the other, and developed 'normally'. There is no influence to attribute.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: a. Were there ever any boys that showed characteristics that you liked?

[quote name='Xeres] He/She/It/They... Perhaps the concept of a Christian Buddhist is hard to comprehend. I really shouldn't advertise myself as such' date=' it's unfair. I believe the premise of some sort of divinity... IF God exists, I would have no fear of God. The God I know of is better than punishing those who dare to love. If I'm wrong, so be it. Your threats of sin and vile temptation hold no force with me, I do not lust after the flesh, and I do not promote promiscuity... You happen to be terribly misinformed about what homosexuals are really like.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I won’t pretend to know what goes on in you head, but I will make a conclusion based on what I have seen of others of the homosexual population.
Now then, you aren’t sure that God exists, but if he does, in one form or another, then you believe that he will be as you imagine him to be?

[quote name='Xeres] I'm not sure if you're asserting that I hate men... Which I most certainly do not. I fail to see what that has to do with anything. Men are perfectly capable of rational thought' date=' and Buddhism was created by Buddha... Also male. Are you suggesting that lesbians must adopt a pseudo-feminist religion, throw off the shackles of male oppression, and burn their brassieres in a public display of defiance? I'm sorry, my assumption is simply leading off of yours... Lesbians are not 'man-haters'. Well, some are... But that is a case of homosexuality being a choice. That is different.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I meant that a fallible person wrote Buddhism. You believe in a religion or a belief that was created by one or few people?

>>Dai Grepher: Some of the people that do think there is something wrong with the lifestyle think so for logical reasons. Are his or her feelings and thoughts less important than someone who lives the lifestyle?

[quote name='Xeres] This is where your misinformation takes opinion and bias and promotes it as fact. This entire idea of homosexual promiscuity is a large myth. Yes' date=' homosexuals do engage in sexual acts, as do straight couples. AIDS is actually fastest rising amoung female heterosexual teenagers, aged 16-21.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Where, in Africa? I am not saying that promiscuity does not exist in individual heterosexuals. Just that homosexuality promotes it. That is not a myth.

[quote name='Xeres] So the 'spread of disease' you seem so paranoid about' date=' is rather closer to your side of the spectrum. The 'lifestyle' is only dangerous to the mind because hateful and ignorant bigots make it that way.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, the danger is to the ones committing the act. It inspires sinful thinking and sinful mindsets in most.

[quote name='Xeres] Homosexuals do not try to convert people to their cause... Nor do they have this self-righteous attitude that they are indeed 'right'. They want to be equal' date=' not hated. I do not believe that is a crime.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Pedophiles feel the same way. They just want to be equal and not hated for what they do.

[quote name='Xeres] I will agree that many people find homosexuality repulsive. Of this I am well aware. However' date=' if we rule out religious opinion, ignorance, and misinformation as they are far from 'logical reasons' you will find that the majority of people are not repulsed by homosexuality.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Many non-religious people are repulsed by it already. The ruling out of those will not affect the knot that forms in someone’s stomach when homosexuality is seen or heard by that person.

[quote name='Xeres] Yes' date=' I do deem religious reasons as an illogical way of hating those that are homosexual.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Christianity does not hate homosexuals though. It hates sin, not sinners.

[quote name='Xeres] Anything that promotes ignorance and hate is illogical to me. The thoughts and feelings of those that do not live the lifestyle are not less important' date=' provided they are based on a fair and equal analysis. As I have mentioned, I have observed and researched this argument from both sides, and I have come to an informed opinion. This does make my opinion more valid than those who blindly hate something they do not even attempt to understand.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Let us say that some people have had a fair and equal analysis of the issue and understand it, and based on the information have concluded that homosexuality is wrong and immoral. If they understand the issue completely, is their opinion less than yours?

[quote name='Xeres] Here is where you assume my beliefs for me' date=' and attempt to enforce your own as fact. Perhaps you missed the point where I said I will find faith for myself, and not allow anyone to think that they can interpret what God or any other divine force can dictate. I DO NOT need to realize that Hell is real. I will just write off this paragraph as you attempting to enforce Catholic doctrine upon me.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: God’s word. Not Catholic doctrine.

[quote name='Xeres] Please do not tell me what I must and must not realize. I don't tell you to be more 'zen'' date=' I expect the same respect for my opinions. My sin is most assuredly not the same as yours. I rate 'hate and ignorance' higher than 'sex with same gender' on my very own 'sin-scale' and no outdated book written by human beings, NOT a divine source, will tell me otherwise.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: What makes your scale of sin right over God’s? I will tell you what you must do in order to be spared from Hell and receive eternal salvation. Whether you choose to do that or not is up to you, and if you choose not to then you will face the consequences in the end, whether you believe you will or not.

[quote name='Xeres] Buddhism is beautiful in that it's doctrine can be applied to many other beliefs. One can be Buddhist and believe in Jesus' date=' or be Jewish and still follow the Buddhist path. Christians are quite capable of hate (this thread is a prime example), and Christians are just as prone to live in sin. Perhaps the truly devout are not... But my opinion of a truly devout Christian and yours are bound to vary greatly.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Just explain how you can be both Buddhist and Christian. What are your beliefs of each?

[quote name='Xeres] I have prayed' date=' I have tried to remain Christian even though my own people have rejected me, or told me to change who I was in order to be accepted, much like you are now.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I am not telling you to change in order to be accepted. I am only asking you to ask Jesus Christ into your heart. Have you done that?

[quote name='Xeres] I should not have to change a fundamental part of who I am. It makes no sense to me. I do not feel I require salvation' date=' for I have no shame in loving for love's sake, not for the sake of being 'morally right'.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: You can love someone and still be morally right. You just have to choose to.

[quote name='Xeres] Also' date=' do not mistake 'love' for 'wanton sex acts'. I have no trouble with the concept of prayer, but I feel you think I need to be forgiven for something I do not seek forgiveness for.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I know that you need forgiveness of sin, which everyone needs, regardless of orientation.

[quote name='Xeres] I'll admit I sin when I lie' date=' or say hurtful things, or when I'm rude... But that's about as far as my sins go.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Like I said to the forum member Mario Jr, any sin is equally as poisoning and equally as condemning. If for nothing else, those sins are what you need to ask Jesus Christ to save you from.

[quote name='Xeres] My belief differs from yours' date=' and so I cannot follow this... And I ask that you respect that. I have no desire to do this, as it is not my belief, it is yours.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: You could change your beliefs, but I will not force you to. It is your choice to accept what I tell you or reject it as they will be your consequences to accept.

[quote name='Xeres] Well' date=' I'm glad to see that the basis of general homosexual attraction is apparently not wrong to you.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Actually, I consider the attraction or lust of the physical to be the basis of all homosexual relationships. Love for another person is just that, love. That can happen between heterosexual people. There are some women and men that I love, but that love is not of their bodies, it is of their personalities.

[quote name='Xeres] Because' date=' though it may surprise you, homosexuals don't simply look at a person and think 'sex'. In fact, I wouldn't be the first, nor last, person to love one of the same gender in this manner. However, I feel you should separate this 'lustful thoughts' ideal from the urge to love someone completely.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: But that is the problem. You don’t choose to love someone, you choose to love someone of the same gender, and then from there you wish to have a physical relationship with them. Correct?

[quote name='Xeres] Now' date=' if you feel that heterosexual couples that engage in sexual acts for pleasure are also guilty of this, that's simply your belief, and not a fault to attribute to homosexuality. Love is expressed in many ways, and it becomes natural to want to be with someone on that apparently 'lustful' level. It doesn't make love any less powerful. When sex becomes recreation, I'll admit that is not love.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: That is all homosexuality is, lust. I won’t deny the fact that a woman can love another woman, because she can and can do so righteously. However, love is not a sexual trait, and therefore cannot be classified as homosexual or heterosexual. The sexual aspect is derived from whom a person chooses to have sex with. If a woman that loves another woman choose to love that woman in a sexual manner, then it becomes a vile affection.

[quote name='Xeres] I've felt attraction for other females' date=' but my feelings for her remain the most powerful. My sexuality would not be based on one isolated incident.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Question answered.

>>Dai Grepher: Perhaps not then. That doesn’t mean that the homosexual agenda did not reinforce that initial attraction through confusion and justification tactics. Since that day, has anything influenced you toward or away from it?

[quote name='Xeres] ...There is no homosexual agenda. I find it hard to discuss anything with someone who believes there is. That is merely fear and ignorance. If anything' date=' there's a heterosexual agenda... But no, I don't go propagating false information and bias. Please, and you have my word as a homosexual, I assure you that we're not trying to 'queer up' America. No amber alert is necessary. Remain calm. We'd just like to be normal people too.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Question unanswered. Since that day, has anything influenced you toward or away from it?

[quote name='Xeres] I never made that generalization. I was merely trying to contrast the 'ills' of homosexuality with REAL ills. I never said there weren't homosexuals who are indeed horrible people. But I'm certain (stastically' date=' actually) that for every homosexual rapist, there are 20 heterosexual ones. Not all homosexuals are kind, caring and compassionate. Nor are all homosexuals sexual deviants who want your 'hot, straight ass'.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: You asked, “What is it that gay people do that's so wrong”. I told you that they are trying to change society and that is what people do not like. That is why I post your reply before my own, so you know what I am answering.

[quote name='Xeres] ...Also' date=' I do hope you realize that every time you mention a 'homosexual agenda', you make yourself sound rather stark raving mad. I'm not sure... But as a (metaphorically) card-carrying homosexual... I'd be a TAD more informed of our plans to enslave the heterosexual race, wouldn't I? Or wait! No! I'm just a smokescreen, here to lull you into a false sense of security...[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, you’re someone that has already been deceived into thinking that the motives of the homosexual organizations are ones of peace, unity, tolerance, and equality. They hide behind that guise to mask their real intentions of changing the society, and they have many homosexuals deceived into thinking that people like me are hatful, intolerant, ignorant, bigots that fear something they do not understand when in fact we are only trying to keep the nation on a path of morality. I, and others with my convictions have no desire to persecute or even bash homosexuals. We only want to protect our children from the lifestyle that you’ve chosen. Any outrage that you have seen can be attributed to the agenda forcing their lifestyles into our homes, schools, and lives.

[quote name='Wanchimaera] I'm sure calling him a troll' date=' an "it", a bigot, and a prejudiced bigot is really going to encourage him to alter his views...[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, just report him for insulting another member of the forum.

[quote name='Tekky] Can I just ask DG' date=' what is your opinion on gay Christians? Christians believe they were created by God, and that He has a purpose for them. But if God despises homosexuals, why would He create them?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: God does not create people to be homosexual. Being homosexual is a choice, except in the case when the young are raised to think they are, but that is a complicated issue.

[quote name='Tekky] And please' date=' don't argue with me that you can repress homosexual feelings, because I know you cant.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I know they can because I know Christians that have turned away from the homosexual lifestyle for good. If you cannot, then you have no will power or no true relationship with God.
They can suppress their desires for the same sex just as I can suppress my desires for the opposite sex.

[quote name='Tekky] One more point' date=' sexuality (if I remember my GCSE R.E. coursework properly) is viewed as a special gift from God. In the case of a gay Christian, then why have they been denied the gift of Sexuality since it a sin according to the Bible?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Simple. They have not been denied sexuality. They decide to use their sexuality for sinful purposes.

[quote name='Tekky] This next bit is for my own curiosity' date=' but what references (apart from Corinthians) are there in the New Testament about homosexuality?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Romans chapter one.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Why are you concerned about lesbianism? It makes no sense. In the Old Testament' date=' the major source of all this homosexuality is wrong argument, the original words only referred to homosexuality amongst men. According to the Bible, there's nothing wrong with Lesbianism. (Understandable, once you realise who actually wrote the Old Testament).[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Romans chapter one address this. Also, Xeres suggested that I could learn from her, so I am attempting to.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] That's a bit like saying' date=' Why do you follow Christianity? That is also a belief created by men. After all, Jesus never said, "Worship me. Create a religion based around my resurrection". Who created Christianity? Paul, whom didn't know Jesus in real life, and maybe a few of the Disciples.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Those men were inspired by God to write His words. The fact that His word has survived the ages is proof that His word will never pass away.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] That point is' date=' of course, based on the premise that homosexuals are nothing but sex-crazed maniacs, which is of course, like saying that all Christians are white, racist and bigots. Need I say that both statements are incorrect?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, I said that homosexuality promotes promiscuity. That said nothing of those that choose that lifestyle.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] You cannot prove it exists' date=' therefore you cannot say with 100% certainity that it does. For all you know this world could be Hell and punishment for sinning is to be reborn in this world.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I know Hell exists because God has told me it does. I can say with 100% certainty that it does exist because I know it does.
Your belief in it is irrelevant. For you there is only one of two possibilities. 1. It does not exist. 2. It does exist. If you are right then you will be reincarnated back into this world. If you are wrong, you will go to Hell. So think about the options and decide if you can really take that risk of not believing in Hell’s existence and not asking Jesus Christ to save you from it. You don’t know what comes next so you have to make that choice. I do know what comes next because I have already made that choice.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] This is what I dislike about Christianity. It is like some technology. It can encourage rather lazy behaviour. The religion preaches that all wrongs will eventually be sorted out later on in life through the Hand of God. I don't like that train of thought at all and I'm sure a good deal of reasonable Christians out there don't either.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: What about God’s judgment of those that have been forgiven of their sins and those who have not been, encourages laziness? You are also incorrect. The wrongs done in life are not sorted out later in life, they are sorted out after death, and that is when it is too late. If anything, that is encouragement for us to tell all that we can about Jesus.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Salvation will never come from God or from Christ. Why should Christ bother to do anything for Christians' date=' if they haven't even followed his teachings? What did you think he spent the majority of his adult life doing? Teaching us how to live so that we won't need some almighty influence to step in and make things right.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Jesus taught us to live our lives for God so that we can serve Him better, not so we could live without His protection and guidance. Salvation cannot come from anyone but God and Christ.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] This encourages only sloppy behaviour. You must save yourself from sins. To take a Republican stance' date=' why should the state put you on the dole? You should get a job and earn money. Thusly, to put the same Republican stance on sin, why should Jesus step in and help you out when you can change the way you behave, follow his teachings more and redeem yourself?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Because it is impossible for anyone to save themselves from their sins. No amount of good can counter any sin. All sin is unholy in God’s eyes, so any sin is condemning. This is not a democratic or a republican matter. It is God’s way or it is Hell.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] It is also wrong to make the generalisation that Christians are kind' date=' caring and compassionate, because not all of them are. I hope, however, I misunderstood your statement, because it looks as if you're saying that the generalisation that homosexuals are not kind, not caring and not compassionate is correct.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: You misunderstood. I also agree that not all Christians are kind, caring, and compassionate.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] Then what are we? Vegetables? Minerals? Of course we're animals.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: We are human beings, not animals.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] That's what you think. Intelligence is nothing special. Caledonian crows are intelligent. Dolphins are intelligent. Smarter? Please. Some animals are smarter than human beings in what they do. They can achieve much greater things.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: That is undeniably false.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] We are definitely controlled by instinct. The whole act of reproduction is nothing but instinct.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Then how is it that couples choose when they have children?

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] The protection of offspring from you and your relatives is an instinct' date=' an instinct for the survival of your own genes. In the end, nothing matters. Only your genes survive.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, the desire to have children, raise them, and experience happiness in them is what causes people to have kids willingly.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Well' date=' we don't really eat other people do we? Animals kill other animals and eat them. Big difference there.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Most species of animals do not eat their own kind. Any animal that kills one of it’s own kind does so out of desire of leadership or anger.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Homosexuality has an effect on human survival rate' date=' but not in the way you think. Homosexuals are a minute part of society. We will always be, because homosexuality is a combination of genetic and environmental factors that worked together to determine the outcome of our sexuality.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: There is no proof of that. Through history, the only civilizations to show homosexual traits were ones with no morals. Even ours had a low percentage of homosexuals fifty years ago. It wasn’t until recently that the percentage went up. This is because the lifestyle is being tolerated and people are being deceived into thinking it is right. Also, there are former homosexuals that have chosen to lead heterosexual lives and have children. How can they deny instinct and genetics unless sexual orientation were a choice?

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Homosexuals can still contribute by looking after human life. The evolutionary reason why we are selfless when it comes to our own relatives' date=' is because they share our genes. To help them is to ensure the survival of their genes, and thusly, some of your own genes. Homosexuals will do anything to ensure the survival of their relatives, even if they do not reproduce themselves.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Then why won’t they keep their lifestyle to themselves for the sakes of their parents? Also, humans don’t have the instinct to look after those of their own line. If that were true, there would be no divorce, domestic abuse, or family abandonment.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] As I said before' date=' in the end, all it boils down to is the survival of genes.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I cannot disagree more. Genes have very little to do with someone’s choice of action.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] There's nothing wrong about that. But seriously' date=' homosexuals are fearsome?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: I didn’t say that. I used an analogy to address the natural feeling of fear. However, homosexuals do make some people feel uncomfortable, which is also a natural response.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] Nor did the more original versions of the Bible tell you that all homosexuality is wrong.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Yes they did, and that was made very clear all throughout the Bible.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] I'm not a Christian' date=' but I went to a Christian school. Hence, I have a Bible in my house. It doesn't say anything about homosexuality in the Old Testament. It talks about men lying with men and men having sex with men. Nothing about women with women.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: That rules applies to women as well. The New Testament also addresses that issue.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] And you know when Reverend Lovejoy in the Simpsons said that according the Bible' date=' it is technically a sin to go to the toilet? It actually states in the Bible, that unless you do a purification ceremony involving the release of some doves or birds, then you will forever remain unclean no matter how much you clean your bottom and hands.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Where does it say that?

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Maybe' date=' but how can you be sure that book is the complete, unadulterated Word of God?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: The documentation history accounting that it was translated from the original Greek and Hebrew. It has survived the ages. My conscience, given to me by God, can see what is righteous and what is wrong and I can see that the Bible is righteous. I am sure it is God’s word because I have a connection to God through the Holy Spirit, and God assures me that it is His word.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Where did you get that information? Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it say' date=' Thou shalt not hate another person.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: When Jesus disrupted the corrupt trading that was going on in the tabernacle, he had hatred for the fact that the men had turned a place of worship into a den of thieves. Jesus became angry because he hated the sin.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] I thought that you said before that we aren't controlled by instincts? Fear is an instinct.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: Fear is a feeling more than it is an instinct for humans. There would be no fear if not for awareness. We identify something dangerous and avoid it based on logic. That is a safety response. Some fear is illogical, but it is still a feeling.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] It can control us and in many cases' date=' it does. Fear is what prevents us from killing ourselves, it is what helps to prevent us from doing stupid things that would result in our death. It is in instinct. It can control us, but does not have to.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Instinct controls animals. Fear does not control humans, it only influences us, so I wouldn’t call it an instinct. Not to say we don’t have instincts, we do. However, we make decisions and we posses logic and a high level of thought. Animals do not.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Thus' date=' we should ban marriage altogether. After all, according to you, marriage isn't about love. Straight people are just using marriage as a way of saying they're better than people that aren't married.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: No, it is also a religious belief that is shared between a couple and God. Therefore it cannot be banned.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] But in the case of abortion' date=' isn't that exactly what's happening? There's nothing in the Bible that talks about the killing of an unborn baby. Also, according to the Bible, it is perfectly okay to enslave people from other tribes... which was once taken to be, perfectly moral to enslave black people.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: The Bible does address the killing of an unborn child. It states that the child’s life is equal to that of an adult’s.
Slavery wasn’t condoned in the Bible, but a servant working for a person was accepted.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] But mankind dictated that that was wrong and immoral.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I’ll create a topic about it later.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Your argument can thusly be applied to heterosexual relationships' date=' I hope you do realise that. Why should males have to love females?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: They should have love for everyone.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] Why do they have to love females?[/quote]

Dai Grepher: They don’t.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Surely' date=' they should be loving a person not because they are of the opposite sex, but because they are a person?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Correct. However, a sexual relationship should only be shared between two married people of the opposite sex.

[quote=Wolf_Odonnell] Secondly, heroin was once very legal. In fact, it was once found in cough medicines and used very legally to treat medical conditions.
So in those days, yes, it was right. Though it was clearly manmade, it was considered a drug to treat ailments.[/quote]

Dai Grepher: I meant the use of it for euphoric purposes. Tobacco is legal, but it is still deadly to the body. Just because it is legal does not mean it is right.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] Another example of how life changes and how standards change. Tell me' date=' do you think the world is now better that heroin is illegal? Do you think the world will become a better place now that we know tobacco is bad for you?[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Actually, making heroin illegal made it a more profitable market. So it did not make the world as good as eradicating the plants that produce the drug would have made it. I hope the world will become better since the anti-smoking movements. That doesn’t mean people will stop smoking though, because most smokers already know that smoking is bad for them.

[quote name='Wolf_Odonnell] To put another spin on things' date=' when you were a little child, I bet you were repulsed at the thought of being with someone of the opposite gender. You may say, that's not the same, it's childish behaviour and we grow out of it... Well, if you argue that, then I might as well say that it is also generally childish behaviour to not want to harm others. Young children cannot understand why wars have to happen. They see it as bad, because it involves killing other people. I suppose though, that's childish behaviour too and we should grow out of it.[/quote']

Dai Grepher: Of course. Wars are a necessary part of life and survival. If we remained innocent children, then evil people would destroy us. That doesn’t mean we should not try to avoid war as much as possible.
I disliked girls when I was real little, but after I grew up I began to like girls. The person I was when I was six or ten is not the person I am today. That young boy does not define me as a man. As we grow and learn more we change as human beings.

[SOAP]

Dai Grepher: All relationships have their ups and downs, true, but homosexuality has more adverse downs and not enough ups. If lifestyles like this are brought into the light and accepted, then other lifestyles like pedophilia and bestiality will arise seeking that same acceptance.

Two words: Slippery Slope! It's a very lame arguement. I expected more from you. Guess I was wrong.

Dai Grepher: Love is not a sin, even if it is between two people of the same gender. When it crosses the line into the physical and sexual aspects, then it is a sin.

Okay, so I can love a man but I can't be allowed to express my feelings to him? Am I just supposed to just be a cold unreceptive robot? Should I just rip out my heart right now? It would serve no purpose for if I actuually believed God would punish me for merely following it.

Dai Grepher: Excuse me, that is uncalled for. Up until now you have been very respectful and I have appreciated it, but there is no need to be rude especially since I have been courteous and respectful to everyone here. His word cannot speak for itself to people who will not read it or to those that twist it’s meaning to fit his or her own ideals.

I was angry. And that was weeks ago. But I'll apologize all the same only because that's not the real me. At all.

Dai Grepher: If you act as you say you do, then no one should have a problem with you. The thing most people dislike is when homosexual men act like women, talk like women, or lisp their ‘S’s. Flamboyancy is something that they should not display in public, but if they should, people should be tolerant of it. That doesn’t people who dislike it are wrong however.

I suppose not. But you do realize not all gays act like that. It shames that some gays emrace the stereotype. But these people are mostly young and much rather party and have fun. That true of most people their own age, straight or gay. The gays in my age group seem to be the wildest bunch but they're just showing off. They're priorities are all mixed, probably because they just recently found out they were gay and don't know what to do. They'll tone down as they get older as would anyone their age. Just because a few gays are bad doesn't we're all like that. I'm not like that. Neither is my boyfriend.

Besides, it wouldn't be fair for me to call every Christian a bigot just because a few of them are.

Dai Grepher: Actually, no it isn’t. I agree that same gender couples should not do that either, but for same gender couples to do it is worse because homosexuality is still unnatural. That should not be tolerated.

There are people who still percieve interracial couples as unnatural as well. Doesn't mean we should listen to them.

Dai Grepher: I don’t condone the act of slandering homosexuals, because that turns them away from God. However, in a peaceful discussion such as this one, the claim that homosexuality is wrong is perfectly acceptable. Also keep in mind that I do not hate any person that makes that choice, I only hate the choice because it is a sin. Like I said before, I am not the one who says what is a sin and what is not, God is. I am agreeing with God.

If you don't condone slandering of homosexuals why is it that you keep referring to homosexauls as if they had some sort of agenda. There is no organized movement amongst gays to tear down the frabrics of our society. They just want to be part of it. They're not "crab people from outer space." So please. Stop.

Dai Grepher: Then why not be content with the title of roommates?

Because just because people live together doesn't they're in a relationship. I live with three other guys. But I barely see them on a daily basis. If a gay couple has lived together for a while and were sure that'd commit to staying together for the rest of their lives, then why should they not be allowed a title that reflects more than "just two people rooming together to help pay the bills."

Dai Grepher: When it is tolerance, acceptance, and progress of a sinful lifestyle, yes.

The world isn't going to flip off it's axis just because we let a few gays marry each other. You say you're a man of logic and reason but you're just using scare tactics to make us believe something bad is going to happen if we let this continue. Human kind has down far, FAR worse crimes. But the world continues to turn. Society still moves on and advances. Regardless if you believe our "lifestyle" is immoral it has little to do with the eventual outcome of our society.

Dai Grepher: No, a meaningful relationship happens between a man and a woman who love each other for who they are, and marry so that they can share each other’s bodies. Homosexuals, assuming they look past physical appearances, choose to seek love in their own gender. If that is the case, then they can just as easily choose to love a person of the opposite gender for the qualities they seek. Thus, the homosexual relationship is based on the physical, and thus an unnatural sharing of bodies.

Like I haven't tried that! I've had many girlfriends before which I've grown very attached to. Some of I would've sworn I'd go straight just for them. But the outcome is is always eventually the same. I'd start getting all depressed all of the sudden. Then she'd get depressed because I'm depressed. And then I start crying because she's starting to cry over me. And she's crying because I'm crying because I'm crying. It just. Wasn't. Healthy. I'm not emotionally set up for a woman. At least with a man, there's more stability and I don't have to pretend to be something I'm not.

Dai Grepher: If that were the case, then they could look for love in the opposite gender. If it were based on emotion, then love would be found in the opposite rather than the same. The only thing that makes them seek love in the same gender is the physical.

Uh no. That might be part of it but no more so than it would be in an heterosexual situation. Yes there is a physical attraction between me and my boyfriend but it is the emotional attraction and the solace I find in him that causes me to stay with him. Isn't that a good enough reason for anyone to be in love?

Dai Grepher: That is your opinion. The truth is that God considers homosexuality to be a sin. I believe as God commands.
Theology aside, the argument against homosexuality is still strong based on nature, conscience, science, and logic. Two of the same gender cannot reproduce. Many people see that lifestyle as repulsive and perverted. No gene that determines sexual orientation exists, and if it did, natural selection would have left it behind since homosexuals tend not to reproduce. People who have chosen to be gay have also chosen to be straight again.
The argument isn’t made any less factual or correct by the omission of God. It only loses its authority figure.

While I don't neccessarily believe in a gay gene, just because they don't reproduce (which I don't see how you would assume taht since there are such things as a Sperm Bank) doesn't mean other sibling in their family with a recessive gay gene can't pass it on. Let's say, intead of a gay gene, it's blue eyes. One brother has blue eyes and the other has brown but still has recessive genes. The brother with blue eyes dies off before being able to procreate but the brother with brown eyes still passes down the blue eyes to his offspring with a woman with reccesive genes as well.

On the other hand I don't believe in a so-called "gay gene" any more than I believe in a "fat gene." However, I believe it has more to do, and studies have been done on this, with the conditions of the baby during it's developement in the mother's womb. Also the X and Y chromosomes that determine a babie's gender don't always work do their job. Sometime's you come out with a boy with a penis shaped like a vagina. You could also have children born with whole brain chemistries opposite to their own gender. Should these people be cursed to have minds that conflict with their bodies just because society wants them to conform to the male | female roles athta have set up around them? What of those born between genders.

Dai Grepher: Why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden?
The fact that it is located in the place where fecal matter is expelled from makes it clear that it is not for the reason you believe.
It also doesn’t matter that heroin is from outside the human body, because another male’s appendage is also. Heroin is a chemical that stimulates nerves in the brain to release more dopamine. It is a manipulation of the body much like male homosexuality is.

Why do you keep talking about homosexality as if it were some sort of cult? You wouldn't like it if someone went around saying any organized religion was some sort of cult now would you?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Firstly, Dai, you have too much time on your hands if you can reply to every single person in this forum. I'd like to reply to your entire post, I really would, but there's just so much.

[quote name='Dai Grepher]Dai Grepher: I realize that not all those choosing to live the lifestyle are promiscuous. The lifestyle itself promotes promiscuity' date='[/quote']

Why should it? The lifestyle does not promote promiscuity. No, I would think it more of a social thing, mroe of how straight males act compared to homosexual males act. It's a lot more complicated than how we've both described it.

You see, some homosexual men feel just as threatened about their masculinity as heterosexual men. They thusly try to act as manly as possible, but the stereotypical image of a manly man is one that "scores" all the time, a promiscious man. It's all psychological.

[quote]Dai Grepher: You are mistaken about that. I have even given solid evidence that homosexuality was still considered evil even in the New Testament (Romans Ch. 1).[/quote]

Yes, but isn't Romans written by Paul, whom didn't really know Jesus on a personal level and only claimed to know the spiritual side of Jesus after he saw him on the road to Damascus after falling off his donkey. (Oh, he claims it was the other way round, but I'm sure he fell off his donkey before seeing Jesus). How can you trust Paul? I can understand trusting Jesus or one of his closest disciples, but Paul?

[quote]Dai Grepher: Heroin does not kill immediately, and its first affects bring the user to an extreme euphoria, but just because it starts out good doesn’t mean it is good. Injecting or smoking drugs is not natural, just as drinking is not natural. When those toxins enter the body, the body immediately starts to fight it or try to expel it from the person’s system. The only difference between heroin and homosexuality is that one poisons the body and the other poisons the mind.[/quote]

You're wrong, there in your last sentence. Heroin poisons both body and mind. Homosexuality does not. Homosexual sex, however, may poison the body, but then again, that's true for heterosexual sex too.

[quote]Dai Grepher: The virus was originally found in the homosexual population.[/quote]

So? Pasta is originally found in Italy, but if you look even further back, you'll see that it originated in the form of noodles back in China.

Though the virus was initially found in the homosexual population, that does not mean it orginated in that population. If you look far enough, you'll find the virus is common in monkeys too (although a different variant).

How long does it take to generate a new species of virus? Do we even know? The answer is, no.

[quote]Dai Grepher: I have given evidence, but I will state it again. I have found some web articles since then.

http://www.afa.net/homosexual%5Fagenda/Get...icle.asp?id=115
This is evidence of the media’s bias in favor of the homosexual agenda, and it is evidence of the agenda trying to implement their own teachings and ideals into the schools in order to corrupt the youth.[/quote]

You, however, used a site that is biased against homosexual behaviour and biased towards traditional (i.e. Christian) values. Why didn't you use the Journalism.org in my list of resources near the top of the forums? They're actually not biased.

(They proved that the 2000 election media coverage was biased against Gore, but that the recent elections were biased towards Bush).

I don't see a bias towards homosexuality or any secret agenda, which there is none. (Sorry, but I don't have the time to search for any studies they did on homosexuality, and I don't think they did one, because it's not necessary).

[quote]http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS00D2
A very long but enlightening read. Written by a former lesbian, this article covers many scientific studies that search for a gay gene. The Homosexual Agenda wants people to believe in a gene that determines who they are, so that they will be accepted and so that young people will be confused into believing they were born that way and that they cannot change.[/quote]

Once again, you're citing a biased site. However, may I point out that there has been no studies that have revealed any genetic causes for lesbianism. In fact, every study I've seen concentrates (for some strange reason) on the genetics of male homosexuality as if lesbianism wasn't even worth considering.

All the studies show that whatever genetics influences causes homoseuxality, it for some bizarre reason, only affects males. Of course, they've only seen statistical evidence to support this and more work is apparently being done. Why? I have no idea and frankly, as a homosexual, I don't like it.

It's as if they're trying to find a gay gene, so they can prevent it from being transmitted.

[quote]
http://www.glaad.org/media/release_detail....2739d33dcb77a2b
This is evidence of GLAAD controlling the shows that FOX airs. They have an opinion of what programs are shown and not shown, but does FOX extent the offer to organizations that stand for Family Values? No. GLAAD had FOX cancel the show in the article because it made fun of homosexuality, not because it was inappropriate. [/quote]

It was inappropriate. Have you read what they were getting these people to do? That's just wrong. (then again, I think all reality TV shows are wrong).

[quote]http://forums.gamewi...ad.php?t=371431
However, The Simpson’s recently aired an episode where Marge’s sister Patty came out to be lesbian. GLAAD was thrilled about shows like that on Fox, but don’t want anything that speaks against homosexuality. Q Eye for the Straight Guy, Q as Folk, and the L Word are among other shows that GLAAD is thrilled to have on TV, and that is because it will help them change people into thinking they are homosexual, or at least make people think there is nothing wrong with the lifestyle.[/quote]

Let's face it, there aren't that many to begin with so of course they're thrilled.

[quote]Dai Grepher: No, it is about turning them into emasculate men. A show with women telling men how to look would be better, since it is women that men are supposed to be attracting in the first place.
It has been a long time since I have read that particular article on the net, so I don’t remember the link.[/quote]

It's nothing of the sort. If you look at it logically, males are the ones that dictate fashion. Why else would fahsion be towards skimpy clothes that reveal more female flesh, bras that make breasts look more firm, high heels with pointy toes that must be uncomfortable that serve only to accentuate the form of the leg?

[quote]
Dai Grepher: I accept everyone’s view as being their opinion. I disagree with them. A bigot is one who does not accept views because of stubbornness. I have scientific evidence, logic, and God to support what I believe. I have reason to disagree. That does not make me a bigot.[/quote]

Actually... a bigot is:

[quote]
big·ot (bĭg'ət)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Source: http://www.answers.com/bigot&r=67
[/quote]

So, you see, logic and belief in God has nothing to do with not being a bigot.

[quote]Dai Grepher: My goal is to offer a strong defense of morality and show why this lifestyle is against morality. My goal is to protect the sanctity of marriage, and show why homosexual marriage is wrong and will destroy our society. Mostly, I am bringing these dangers to everyone’s attention in hopes that they will realize this so that the destructive path can be avoided.[/quote]

My goal is to offer a strong defence against bigotry, ignorance and blind faith. By all means, have faith, but please do some research first.

[quote]Dai Grepher: I understand that people don’t like to hear how wrong they are, but I am not trying to dictate to them how they should live. I am only identifying what is right from what is wrong.[/quote]

I actually can't stand it when people don't speak up when I've made a serious error, but I prefer it if they break it to me politely.

[quote]Dai Grepher: I know that I am saved and that God is with me through the Holy Spirit. I know this because I have accepted Christ into my life, and I know God exists because He has spoken to me when I’ve prayed to Him.[/quote]

I'm sorry... He's actually spoken to you? What did he say?

Oh, and when you speak to him next, tell him I said, Hi.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Tolerance is not going out and slandering, harassing, or inflicting harm on homosexuals.
Acceptance is believing that homosexuality is right.
Homosexuals want acceptance, not tolerance. Tolerance was just another step toward acceptance. Acceptance is another step toward superiority.[/quote]

Though the definitions for the two words are different, you're wrong. Acceptance of homoseuxality and tolerance of homosexuality isn't about accepting that it is right. It is accepting that it is not 100% wrong and tolerating the fact that they exist.

[quote]Dai Grepher: I am in no way saying that homosexuality is our biggest or only problem. I am saying it is one of many that should be fixed if we are to become a stronger society. I don’t deny that there are other problems, but this topic is about homosexuality. Right now, we are discussing the topic.[/quote]

Homosexuality is a problem? Unsafe sex is a problem. Homosexuality is not a problem.

[quote]Dai Grepher: All relationships have their ups and downs, true, but homosexuality has more adverse downs and not enough ups.[/quote]

Who says?

[quote]If lifestyles like this are brought into the light and accepted, then other lifestyles like pedophilia and bestiality will arise seeking that same acceptance.[/quote]

What's the connection? Paedophilia is wrong (yes, you did spell paedophilia right, but I'm using the British English spelling just because it's what I'm used to and to confuse you at the same time) and bestiality is wrong. Why? Because children don't know better (as I think you pointed out in a previous post) and cannot consent and animals cannot consent either.

Adult males can consent, however, and there can be love there.

Children are also more psychologically fragile, so sex with them (i.e. abuse) can scar them psychologically for life. With adult males, as long as it is consenting and as long as there is love, this will not be the case.

And this is mostly the case, because whenever I go out it's usually loving couples and not enough single people I can get to know better...

[quote]
Dai Grepher: No, a meaningful relationship happens between a man and a woman who love each other for who they are, and marry so that they can share each other’s bodies. Homosexuals, assuming they look past physical appearances, choose to seek love in their own gender. If that is the case, then they can just as easily choose to love a person of the opposite gender for the qualities they seek. Thus, the homosexual relationship is based on the physical, and thus an unnatural sharing of bodies.[/quote]

The same can still be said for heterosexuals. I don't believe you're being so blind to your own argument. Come up with a better one! You were so blatantly saying that homosexual was physical and then you stated that love can only happen between a man and a woman, because one is physically a man and one is physically a woman. Is that ont also based on physicalities?

Can't you understand that heterosexuality has just as much lust and physical attraction as homosexuality does? The only difference, the only difference, is that one involves a man and a woman, and the other involves two people of the same gender.

Read this excerpt:

[quote]

Religion

Main article: Religion and homosexuality

Religion has played a significant role in forming a culture’s views towards homosexuality. Historically the negative perceptions have been limited to the Abrahamic religions. Groups not influenced by the Abrahamic religions have commonly regarded homosexuality sacred or neutral. In the wake of colonialism and imperialism undertaken by countries of the Abrahamic faiths some non-Abrahamic religious groups have adopted new attitudes antagonistic towards homosexuality. For example, when India became part of the British Empire sodomy laws were introduced while there was no basis for them in Hindu faith, this led to persecution of their society and religion. India still retains portions due to this past foreign influence as of 2005. This experienced was also repeated by other Abrahamic religious nations upon their acquisitions throughout Africa, Asia and the Americas.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....i/Homosexuality
[/quote]

[quote]Dai Grepher: If that were the case, then they could look for love in the opposite gender. If it were based on emotion, then love would be found in the opposite rather than the same. The only thing that makes them seek love in the same gender is the physical.[/quote]

The only thing that makes malse seek love in women is also physical in that case.

[quote]Dai Grepher: That is your opinion. The truth is that God considers homosexuality to be a sin. I believe as God commands.
Theology aside, the argument against homosexuality is still strong based on nature, conscience, science, and logic. Two of the same gender cannot reproduce. Many people see that lifestyle as repulsive and perverted. No gene that determines sexual orientation exists, and if it did, natural selection would have left it behind since homosexuals tend not to reproduce. People who have chosen to be gay have also chosen to be straight again.[/quote]

Firstly, on your "strong argument based on nature":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

I think you'll find that it does exist in nature as well, but then again, that doesn't matter to you, does it? After all, animals won't go to Heaven.

Second, those people who "chose to be gay" were probably going through a phase. Sexuality is not split into heterosexual and homosexual. There are varying degrees and most heterosexuals aren't 100%. They will, however, not admit that, may not even realise it.

Then again, there is evidence to prove that it can be changed, but there is an equal amount of evidence to prove that homosexuality is fixed:

[quote]
"Permanent"

The great majority of workers in medicine and the sciences, as well as gay organizations, claim that sexual orientation is innate, fixed and unchangeable, and that it is impossible to change homosexuality into heterosexuality, or vice-versa. They hold that the innate factors that in the majority of cases direct male sexual arousal to females (and vice-versa), in the case of the gay minority direct arousal toward those of the same gender.

To support this argument, they point to the many reports of both straight and gay-identified individuals who claim having discovered their orientation at an early age (often in pre-adolescence). In the case of queer youth, many report initial distress in response to this realization. Their claims are consistent with statistics showing that gay-identified youth are several times more likely than non-gay youth to attempt suicide .

Some scientific studies suggest gay men's anatomical brain structure is similar to that of heterosexual women and different from their heterosexual male counterparts. Other studies such as the March 2000 Breedlove finger length report [4] (http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~mos/stats2000/...rlengthrap.html) and the July 2000 University of Texas study of neurological auditory response [5] (http://www.utexas.edu/opa/news/00newsrelea...rain000712.html) suggest that while lesbians show characteristics intermediate between heterosexual men and women gay men are "hyper-masculinized". Some researchers have found that if one of a set of identical twins self-identifies as a gay man or lesbian, the chance of the other identifying as gay is increased to 50%, although other researchers' twin studies have found widely differing percentages.

Attempts to modify sexual orientation (known as "conversion therapies" and so far targeted only at queer-identified individuals) have been condemned by numerous professional organizations in the scientific field for causing depression - sometimes leading to suicide - and being of little value. In 2001 Dr. Robert Spitzer, professor of psychiatry at Columbia University announced a study indicating that reparative therapy has a failure rate on the order of 99.98%. The American Psychological Association in 1997 passed a resolution declaring therapists in these groups engaged in such conversion therapies to be following unethical and unhealthy practice.

The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association developed and endorsed a statement in 1999 reading:

• The most important fact about 'reparative therapy,' also sometimes known as 'conversion therapy,' is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.' ...health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people's sexual orientation through 'reparative therapy' and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....i/Homosexuality

[/quote]


[quote]
Dai Grepher: Why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden?
The fact that it is located in the place where fecal matter is expelled from makes it clear that it is not for the reason you believe.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but where did you get that information? Plus, what on Earth does it have to do with this topic?

[quote]It also doesn’t matter that heroin is from outside the human body, because another male’s appendage is also. Heroin is a chemical that stimulates nerves in the brain to release more dopamine. It is a manipulation of the body much like male homosexuality is.[/quote]

So is heterosexuality. LEt's face it, the male penis is foreign to the female's body as is the male sperm. Even the embryo is foreign to the female body (one of the arguments anti-abortionists use in proving that killing the embryo is wrong). What is your point?

[quote]
Dai Grepher: I won’t pretend to know what goes on in you head, but I will make a conclusion based on what I have seen of others of the homosexual population.
Now then, you aren’t sure that God exists, but if he does, in one form or another, then you believe that he will be as you imagine him to be?[/quote]

He will never be as you imagine him to be, because we, as humans defined w


[quote]
Dai Grepher: I meant that a fallible person wrote Buddhism. You believe in a religion or a belief that was created by one or few people?[/quote]

Christianity was also a religion created by one or a few people that started off as a belief. THe only reason Buddhism isn't regarded as a religion by some is that it does not deny the existence of the Christian God or the other Gods.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Where, in Africa? I am not saying that promiscuity does not exist in individual heterosexuals. Just that homosexuality promotes it. That is not a myth.[/quote]

Prove it.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Pedophiles feel the same way. They just want to be equal and not hated for what they do.[/quote]

As I said, there is a psychological diference that makes paedophilia more wrong than homosexuality, because not only is it wrong on a religious level, it is wrong on a scientific psychological level as well.


[quote]
Dai Grepher: Many non-religious people are repulsed by it already. The ruling out of those will not affect the knot that forms in someone’s stomach when homosexuality is seen or heard by that person.[/quote]

That, I think you'll find, is called bigotry.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Christianity does not hate homosexuals though. It hates sin, not sinners.[/quote]

So, the fact that there is actually a law somewhere in the Bible that homosexuals should be stoned to death is just my imagination, then?

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Just explain how you can be both Buddhist and Christian. What are your beliefs of each?[/quote]

I think it's very simple to be Buddhist and Christian, seeing as many of Christ's teachings have uncanny similarities to Buddhist teachings, and the fact that Buddhism does not reject the existence of the Christian God.

[quote]Dai Grepher: Actually, I consider the attraction or lust of the physical to be the basis of all homosexual relationships. Love for another person is just that, love. That can happen between heterosexual people. There are some women and men that I love, but that love is not of their bodies, it is of their personalities.[/quote]

You are wrong, in that case.

There are no absolutes in life, unless you count absolute zero. Not all homosexual relationships are based on attraction or lust, just as I'm sure not all heterosexual relationships are based on love.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: That is all homosexuality is, lust. I won’t deny the fact that a woman can love another woman, because she can and can do so righteously. However, love is not a sexual trait, and therefore cannot be classified as homosexual or heterosexual. The sexual aspect is derived from whom a person chooses to have sex with. If a woman that loves another woman choose to love that woman in a sexual manner, then it becomes a vile affection.[/quote]

Lesbianism is not frowned upon by Christianity. I can tell you that my copy of the Bible doesn't even mention Lesbianism as a sin.

Not all homosexuality is lust.

[quote]Dai Grepher: No, you’re someone that has already been deceived into thinking that the motives of the homosexual organizations are ones of peace, unity, tolerance, and equality. They hide behind that guise to mask their real intentions of changing the society, and they have many homosexuals deceived into thinking that people like me are hatful, intolerant, ignorant, bigots that fear something they do not understand when in fact we are only trying to keep the nation on a path of morality. I, and others with my convictions have no desire to persecute or even bash homosexuals. We only want to protect our children from the lifestyle that you’ve chosen. Any outrage that you have seen can be attributed to the agenda forcing their lifestyles into our homes, schools, and lives.[/quote]

Okay, I'll bite. What is our agenda? Hm? To pervert the nation and bring it down?

I did not choose my lifestyle. Many gay males did not choose their lifestyle. I realised I wasn't attracted to females, but to males. Sure, there's physical attraction there, but there's no lust. I don't lust after males and what you're saying is that homosexuality is lust. That's not true. You tried to make a distinction between physical attraction and lust?

Well, I'm doing the same and I say it isn't lust but physical attraction.

Changing the society? Of course we want to change the society. We want to change it so that it's more tolerant of us, so we aren't regarded as freaks, so we can live normal lives. We aren't organised into groups that plot the destruction of Christian society (at least, I'm not).

Oh, and the others aren't replying to all your comments, because quite a lot of the time, you're repeating yourself. (Oh, and some of your comments just aren't worth replying to).

[quote]
Dai Grepher: God does not create people to be homosexual. Being homosexual is a choice, except in the case when the young are raised to think they are, but that is a complicated issue.[/quote]

Once again, you're wrong. Homosexuality is not necessarily a choice. Homosexuality is a result of genetic and environmental factors. Lesbians are more likely to believe they've chosen their lifestyle. Male homosexuals are more likely to believe they were born gay.


[quote]Dai Grepher: I know Hell exists because God has told me it does. I can say with 100% certainty that it does exist because I know it does.
Your belief in it is irrelevant. For you there is only one of two possibilities. 1. It does not exist. 2. It does exist. If you are right then you will be reincarnated back into this world. If you are wrong, you will go to Hell. So think about the options and decide if you can really take that risk of not believing in Hell’s existence and not asking Jesus Christ to save you from it. You don’t know what comes next so you have to make that choice. I do know what comes next because I have already made that choice.[/quote]

Believing in Hell is not a criteria for being Christian. It's a criteria for being a Satanist, however, so if you want me to become a Satanist, sure, I'll believe in Hell. Believing in Hell is not a criteria for salvation.

You know how we can obtain true salvation? You want to know? Follow Jesus's words.


[quote]
Dai Grepher: What about God’s judgment of those that have been forgiven of their sins and those who have not been, encourages laziness? You are also incorrect. The wrongs done in life are not sorted out later in life, they are sorted out after death, and that is when it is too late. If anything, that is encouragement for us to tell all that we can about Jesus.
[/quote]

But that's the point. The point is, that part of religion encourages us not to care about other people, because, hey, they'll get their just desserts in the after-life. Jesus and God will sort things out by saving us if we ask them to. That is bad thinking. We should do our own saving, just as you believe that other people should pay for their own healthcare.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Jesus taught us to live our lives for God so that we can serve Him better, not so we could live without His protection and guidance. Salvation cannot come from anyone but God and Christ.
[/quote]

Here are the meaning of salvation:

• Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil.
• A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance.

• Christianity.
• Deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; redemption.
• The agent or means that brings about such deliverance.

A). If we're all following Christ's words, we wouldn't need to be delivered from destruction, difficulty or evil, because there'd be other people to help us through those things.
B). Okay, let's forget that one.

2). Likewise, if we follow his words, we wouldn't be doing sins in the first place.
3). Erm... well, let's forget that definition too.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: We are human beings, not animals.
[/quote]

Human beings are not a class of their own. We are animals. We are not animals in the sense that we're civilised and we have manners, but we are biologically animals.


[quote]
Dai Grepher: That is undeniably false.[/quote]

Fine. Let's take them all away and see how long humanity can survive without them.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Then how is it that couples choose when they have children?
[/quote]

Sorry, I gave in to the falsehood that everything is black and white and that there are no greys. Still, your statement wasn't completely true and mine wasn't completely true. I suspect that the truth is something in the middle.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: No, the desire to have children, raise them, and experience happiness in them is what causes people to have kids willingly.
[/quote]

Why do they experience that happiness? What is the brain trying to do? Reward them for reproducing and reward them for passing on their genes to the next generation, and thus ensuring the genes survive, perhaps?

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Most species of animals do not eat their own kind. Any animal that kills one of it’s own kind does so out of desire of leadership or anger.
[/quote]

Exactly. Animals do not intentionally kill one of their own kind, even from desire of leadership or anger. Even if they do, that's just the one minority. The majority do not do it. Hence, by your logic, animals are just as well-behaved as human beings in that aspect.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: There is no proof of that. Through history, the only civilizations to show homosexual traits were ones with no morals. Even ours had a low percentage of homosexuals fifty years ago. It wasn’t until recently that the percentage went up. This is because the lifestyle is being tolerated and people are being deceived into thinking it is right. Also, there are former homosexuals that have chosen to lead heterosexual lives and have children. How can they deny instinct and genetics unless sexual orientation were a choice?
[/quote]

Wrong. The only civilisations to show homosexual traits were all of them. Those that actively had anti-homosexual morales ensured that the homosexual community kept in the closet. And I'm talking about twin studies clearly accepted by major scientific journals, however, I'm sure you wouldn't believe in evolution if it was accepted into a major scientific journal, so I don't know why I made that argument.

There were homosexuals in the 1800s, early 1900s and so forth. The only reason you see the percentage shoot up, is because more homosexual people are feeling more comfortable about being who they are, and thus more homosexual people are willing to admit that they are homosexual.

P.S. Look at this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gaymap.PNG

[quote]Dai Grepher: That rules applies to women as well. The New Testament also addresses that issue.[/quote]

Source: http://www.biblegate...=31;9;47;15;49;

Really?

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Where does it say that?
[/quote]

Erm... let me get back to you on that, coz I need to find the actual passage number and you know how big the Bible is. I think it might be in Leviticus or maybe Deutronomy, but I'm not entirely sure as of this moment.

However, I did find one about women and menstruation:

[quote]


Leviticus 15:19-30New International Version (NIV)


Listen to this passage





19 " 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

20 " 'Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 22 Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. 24 " 'If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean. 25 " 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge



[/quote]

So, technically her monthly period is a sin according to the Bible and anyone who so much as touches her becomes unclean.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: The documentation history accounting that it was translated from the original Greek and Hebrew. It has survived the ages. My conscience, given to me by God, can see what is righteous and what is wrong and I can see that the Bible is righteous. I am sure it is God’s word because I have a connection to God through the Holy Spirit, and God assures me that it is His word.
[/quote]

Well, if you have a connection to Him, please tell Him that I really admire His Son's teachings.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Fear is a feeling more than it is an instinct for humans. There would be no fear if not for awareness. We identify something dangerous and avoid it based on logic. That is a safety response. Some fear is illogical, but it is still a feeling.
[/quote]

Fear's an instinct. What you feel because of fear is a feeling.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Instinct controls animals. Fear does not control humans, it only influences us, so I wouldn’t call it an instinct. Not to say we don’t have instincts, we do. However, we make decisions and we posses logic and a high level of thought. Animals do not.
[/quote]

Instinct on a biological basis, which is, what I assume you're talking about is:

"An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli"

I'm a bit tired, so can anyone else think up of an inborn pattern of behaviour characteristic to our species, preferably something that is a response to specific environmental stimuli? (Of course, that question was not directed to you, Dai, because I know you'll say, No, but you can participate if you want).

[quote]
Dai Grepher: No, it is also a religious belief that is shared between a couple and God. Therefore it cannot be banned.
[/quote]

Marriage was created by the Catholic Church, not God.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: The Bible does address the killing of an unborn child. It states that the child’s life is equal to that of an adult’s.[/quote]

Name the passage, please.

[quote]Slavery wasn’t condoned in the Bible, but a servant working for a person was accepted.[/quote]

Yes, sorry. I misread something. THe Bible doesn't condone slavery, but it didn't condemn it either. In fact, it said this about slavery:



[quote]Exodus 21:20-21New International Version (NIV)


Listen to this passage





20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.






New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



King James Version (KJV)


Listen to this passage
View commentary related to this passage







20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.






King James Version (KJV) Public Domain



English Standard Version (ESV)


View commentary related to this passage







20"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.






English Standard Version (ESV) The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.



Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


View commentary related to this passage







20`And when a man smiteth his man-servant or his handmaid, with a rod, and he hath died under his hand -- he is certainly avenged; 21only if he remain a day, or two days, he is not avenged, for he [is] his money.






Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Public Domain



New American Standard Bible (NASB)


View commentary related to this passage





20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; (A)for he is his property.

[/quote]



[quote]
Dai Grepher: I meant the use of it for euphoric purposes. Tobacco is legal, but it is still deadly to the body. Just because it is legal does not mean it is right.
[/quote]

Ah, but was it not considered right in those days? Its use certainly wasn't considered wrong, until they realised what it did.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Actually, making heroin illegal made it a more profitable market. So it did not make the world as good as eradicating the plants that produce the drug would have made it. I hope the world will become better since the anti-smoking movements. That doesn’t mean people will stop smoking though, because most smokers already know that smoking is bad for them.
[/quote]

That's because of the nicotine, which provides an addiction that is very hard to fight against.

[quote]
Dai Grepher: Of course. Wars are a necessary part of life and survival. If we remained innocent children, then evil people would destroy us. That doesn’t mean we should not try to avoid war as much as possible.[/quote]

War is necessary for life and survival? I'll let someone else argue against that point.

[quote]I disliked girls when I was real little, but after I grew up I began to like girls. The person I was when I was six or ten is not the person I am today. That young boy does not define me as a man. As we grow and learn more we change as human beings.[/quote]

Exactly. As we grow and learn more, we change as human beings. I hope you'll learn more too.

[quote="Mario Jr"]Why do you keep talking about homosexality as if it were some sort of cult? You wouldn't like it if someone went around saying any organized religion was some sort of cult now would you?[/quote]

Especially seeing as that's what Christianity started off as, a cult.

(Man, that took 2hours and 44 minutes to reply to! Why is it that whenever I respond to your (Dai) posts I take so long that by the time I've finished, it's time for me to eat?)

[Oberon Storm]

Dai Grepher: Fine. If you know this issue well, then what are those bundles of nerves called?

To be honest it isn't a ball of nerves, it's a gland. However, the prostate is where the nerves that control erection, orgasm, and ejaculation gather. From what I understand (I have an exit only sign hanging on my ass.) direct stimulation of the prostate causes a large amount of pleasure.

The virus was originally found in the homosexual population.

Unfortunately yes, that is how it started in America. This is due to male anatomy. It is easier for males to transmit the virus. However, it didn't originate in homosexuals. I do know in came from Africa. How it came to be I do not know for sure. Here is one theory.

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dis...documents/AIDS/

I have given evidence, but I will state it again. I have found some web articles since then.

http://www.afa.net/homosexual%5Fagenda/Get...icle.asp?id=115
This is evidence of the media’s bias in favor of the homosexual agenda, and it is evidence of the agenda trying to implement their own teachings and ideals into the schools in order to corrupt the youth.

This is the first I have sen of any evidence and it is ery biased. It also does nothing to support the veiw of a media bias in favor of any agenda. It's a hissy fit about O'Reilly.

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS00D2
A very long but enlightening read. Written by a former lesbian, this article covers many scientific studies that search for a gay gene. The Homosexual Agenda wants people to believe in a gene that determines who they are, so that they will be accepted and so that young people will be confused into believing they were born that way and that they cannot change.

No one here has claimed any gene. I think several of us have gone as far as saying there probably isn't one. What we have said is it isn't a choice as arbitrary as c making the decision to brush your teeth. I use the analogy of chocolate. Because really, love is chemically no different than the pleasure attained by eating large quantaties of chocolate. You aren't born with a taste of chocolate. But once you taste it, chemicals get released that say "Hey I like this!" This article does nothing to disprove this. I would argue that anyone that says they were able to change were never really homosexual to begin with. They were just going through some phase.

http://www.glaad.org/media/release_detail....2739d33dcb77a2b
This is evidence of GLAAD controlling the shows that FOX airs. They have an opinion of what programs are shown and not shown, but does FOX extent the offer to organizations that stand for Family Values? No. GLAAD had FOX cancel the show in the article because it made fun of homosexuality, not because it was inappropriate.

The show sounds like it really was making fun of homosexuals.

http://forums.gamewinners.com/forums/showt...ad.php?t=371431
However, The Simpson’s recently aired an episode where Marge’s sister Patty came out to be lesbian. GLAAD was thrilled about shows like that on Fox, but don’t want anything that speaks against homosexuality. Q Eye for the Straight Guy, Q as Folk, and the L Word are among other shows that GLAAD is thrilled to have on TV, and that is because it will help them change people into thinking they are homosexual, or at least make people think there is nothing wrong with the lifestyle.

A forum? This does nothing to prove that they are out to turn us gay. And yes it is OK to be gay.

There is also the Day of Silence in Schools that promote the lifestyle under the guise of being against harassment.
I’ll look up more information if you still have more questions.

No need. I know what it is. Homosexual kids get teased and picked on every day. Schools don't give a shit. On this day, students just don't talk in protest of this. It is a protest of harrasment. How you can turn it into anything different is beyond me. But I guess it is OK to harass others, just not oK to be homosexual. What is really disgusting is the Day of Truth. A day harrasment of others is celebrated.

No, it is about turning them into emasculate men. A show with women telling men how to look would be better, since it is women that men are supposed to be attracting in the first place.
It has been a long time since I have read that particular article on the net, so I don’t remember the link.

Then your allegations of cover ups are heaps of shit. And it is about fashion. There is nothing wrong with being shown how to dress.

Again I ask, what is being denied of them? Marriage? It isn’t. They never had the right to get married in the first place, and they shouldn’t because it infringes on other people’s rights and the union was not created for that lifestyle.

That would be the definition of denial. And infringes on no rights.

[Tekky]

Very very long posts, my brain is too sore to read them all... :-S

But I am going to ask another question about the Gay Christian issue, do you remember last year the major controversy in the Anglican Church about the appointing of an openly gay Bishop? What is the general opinion here on that?

(As a little aside to break the tension slightly, does anyone remember the episode of South Park where the guys from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy were revealed to be Crab People in disguise who were effeminating the male population of America so they could invade and America would be defenceless? Was quite funny actually!)

[Wanchimaera]

I have an exit only sign hanging on my ass

I was traumatized when someone actually thought it was funny to put an "Exit Only" tattoo there and proceeded to show people...

Homosexual kids get teased and picked on every day. Schools don't give a shit.

Not to mention the fact that straight kids get harrassed, called gay for not fitting the stereotype of the "traditional male", and treated as total outcasts, and you're absolutely right, the schools could care less about it.

[arunma]

Yes, but isn't Romans written by Paul, whom didn't really know Jesus on a personal level and only claimed to know the spiritual side of Jesus after he saw him on the road to Damascus after falling off his donkey. (Oh, he claims it was the other way round, but I'm sure he fell off his donkey before seeing Jesus). How can you trust Paul? I can understand trusting Jesus or one of his closest disciples, but Paul?

Wolf, I think you need to understand that Paul was universally accepted as an apostle by the early church. Furthermore, you need to understand that Paul did know Jesus. As he told the Corinthians, he was taken up into heaven, and was given special revelation (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). And he proved his apostleship by doing miracles before the churches, just as the other apostles did. He was also approved of by the other apostles after spending three years in the desert (Galatians 1:17-18, 2:9).

Now, you could ask how you can trust that Paul is telling the truth. But then again, you seem to trust those parts of the Bible that are written as stories rather than letters (why the literary style matters to you, I do not know). So I could ask you how you know that Matthew or Mark are telling the truth.

Ultimately, you either accept the Scriptures or you don't. And if you do, then it's impossible to say that Paul isn't an apostle, or that he didn't know Jesus.

By the way, you still haven't answered my question (or if you did, I missed it among the large posts). How do you reconcile the fact that Luke and Acts are written by the same person? Whether the author's name was "Luke," it's accepted by all scholars that Luke and Acts share a common authorship. If you believe the author when he says that Jesus existed, why don't you believe him when he says that Jesus appeard to Paul?

[Alakhriveion]

Ultimately, you either accept the Scriptures or you don't. And if you do, then it's impossible to say that Paul isn't an apostle, or that he didn't know Jesus.

Well, you could say that the Church alter the book without scruple: Thomas, for example, was either removed because it would bring challenges to those in power, or because God said so. You can believe in the scriptures without trusting the Vatican of the second century (not that I've ever met anyone who does), it's just a hell of a lot more complicated.

[thabto81]

This thread is a [Deleted by Moderator] and not only because Dai Grepher is a complete prejudiced nutcase, but also because of arunma's inability to concentrate on anything [Deleted by Moderator] for a change and close this thread before it escalated into another [Deleted by Moderator] quote war. And don't think for a second, Mario Jr. and Xeres, that I'm letting you off the hook either. What is with you two? This fool, Dai Grepher, is not only questioning your morals and livelihood, but your very existence and you have the tenacity to engage in a "civil" debate with him as if he deserves it [Not deleted but seriously, watch your goddamn mouth]? I tell ya, if it were me he was so blatantly insulting I'd let him have it, no holds barred. [Deleted by Moderator] being banned or jailed or whatever. Nobody that hasn't spent more than one day talking and conversing with me on an intimate level has the right to make me question the life I've chosen to live. Nobody. So [Deleted by Moderator], Dai. You can just go [Deleted by Moderator] you [Deleted by Moderator].

[Alakhriveion]

Watch your mouth, dammit. That's not help, and you know it. According to my notes this is strike three so you're getting jailed.

On the other hand, you're very right. This thread needs to be closed. Done.