107 replies to this topic

[Khuffie]

You guys need to speak to anyone that knows me personally. You'll know that I am one of the nicest guys around. In fact, I'd take abuse from people for a long time before I'd stand up and put a stop to it. I just don't enjoy conflict, and I let people run all over me. It's one of my downfalls really. I only 'bite back' when I'm pushed too far. And certain individuals here have pushed me too far.

People question when this started happening, and I have a faint idea. After the hack, Masamune asked to host his forums here, and I accepted. I don't recall why exactly (I think me and him had an argument over AIM) but he decided to move out of his own accord. I didn't even have the faintest notion of using our argument against him, but he moved his forums. Its not up to me to convince him to stay, but I decided to be nice and keep the forums for a couple of weeks to link to his new forums. At the same time, he moved his whole site off the server. From then on, he's had a personal vendetta against me and LA.

And its funny that people here think that sucking up does anything to win me favour. If it did, Zythe would have been an admin a long time ago. So would have Flint, at some point. And countless others. I tend to overlook the sucking up, as I don't like it. It doesn't improve someone's stance or degrade them in my eyes. And the same goes to the other way: if you have a problem, and you bring it up in a civilised manner, I won't and don't hold it against you.

It seems that people seem to think that there is a big underground catastrophe going on in LA, and that most of the population is unaware of it. Has the notion ever crossed your mind that the problem is in your mind? Or that you are creating the problem out of nothing? Or that you are perhaps taking something small, and extrapolating it over anything and everything?

There are some kinks here, as there always were, and as there always will be. There's no such thing as perfection, and I don't even strive to achieve that, because I don't believe people can achieve perfection. We each have our own perceptions, and people look at things through there own eyes. You see a major problem. I see you as the major problem.

How can we fix this problem? I don't know. I do know that some of those mentioned have had precedence in creating similar problems elsewhere, and I wish I had dealt with it then. I also know that banning you wouldn't be a useful option, as it's easy to bypass such bans, and its simple enough to figure it out.

I've seen Korok's Rock's suspension being mentioned as an example of bad administrating. Strangely enough, it wasn't brought up by Korok's Rock. In fact, Korok never even brought it up when he was suspended. And I now see Korok still at LA, posting in threads and generally adding to the atmosphere, when others are holding on to his example, true or not, and being bitter about it.

Some think I have a predisposition to the instant-ban key, but when have I done so? I only 'instantly ban' someone when their first post is "omg you fags are teh suck fuck you all i rock you suck i have a big penis AND YOU FAGGOTS SUCK!". I know people like these just don't deserve to have access to a computer in the first place, and I don't want them here. If I did have such predisposition, Masamune, HoW, SteveT and others would have long ago been banned.

As for those who talk about the Welcome forum, once we get this over with, I'll get on that, creating a thread to listen to what you guys think. I want to focus on this because frankly, I don't have much time these days. I just spent half an hour writing this out when I should have been editing a video.

[SteveT]

People question when this started happening, and I have a faint idea. After the hack, Masamune asked to host his forums here, and I accepted. I don't recall why exactly (I think me and him had an argument over AIM) but he decided to move out of his own accord

It’s much older than that. However, I can see why you’d peg it around there. See, that was the same time period during which Masa and I had access to the mod forum, which in turn made it when he and I the opportunity to bring up concerns more freely, which we did, and the habit stuck.

 
It seems that people seem to think that there is a big underground catastrophe going on in LA, and that most of the population is unaware of it. Has the notion ever crossed your mind that the problem is in your mind? Or that you are creating the problem out of nothing? Or that you are perhaps taking something small, and extrapolating it over anything and everything?

There are some kinks here, as there always were, and as there always will be. There's no such thing as perfection, and I don't even strive to achieve that, because I don't believe people can achieve perfection. We each have our own perceptions, and people look at things through there own eyes. You see a major problem. I see you as the major problem.

Ok, to cite a relevant example: The Rules

As you’ll recall, a while back we had a bit of an AIM brawl and I brought up that the LA rules at the time were not covering what people were being punished for and were very open to interpretation. You then challenged me to write my own set of rules if I thought I was so good at it, and I did. Nothing came of that for the time being, and I left LA for a while. While I was gone, apparently some discussion went on in the mod forum and an adapted form of my rules was implemented.

Also, independent of me, a member write a point-by-point ridicule of the then-current rules.

Now, if the problem is only in my head and/or I am the problem, then why was a part of my solution to the problem implemented while I was gone? This leads me to believe that there ARE problems which wouldn’t be rectified by my leaving. Do you see my logic?

[Khuffie]

Ok, to cite a relevant example:  The Rules

As you’ll recall, a while back we had a bit of an AIM brawl and I brought up that the LA rules at the time were not covering what people were being punished for and were very open to interpretation.  You then challenged me to write my own set of rules if I thought I was so good at it, and I did.  Nothing came of that for the time being, and I left LA for a while.  While I was gone, apparently some discussion went on in the mod forum and an adapted form of my rules was implemented.  

Also, independent of me, a member write a point-by-point ridicule of the then-current rules.

Now, if the problem is only in my head and/or I am the problem, then why was a part of my solution to the problem implemented while I was gone?  This leads me to believe that there ARE problems which wouldn’t be rectified by my leaving.  Do you see my logic?

No, not really.

We used to have no rules, and people were happy. Our rules used to be just as vague, and people also used to be happy. Frankly, I'd rather the rules be "Use common sense" with a link to a netiquette site. That was just an example of me taking into account other's opinions and listening to them.

[SteveT]

You also had the Jail, whose only saving grace was that it told people how and why other members were being punished. This set precedents, and skimming through the first post of multiple jail threads would be, in effect, reading the list of LA's rules. You HAD rules before, or people would never have been punished; the rules just weren't written down.

That was the only saving grace of the jail. That needs to be stressed.

The same effect (building respect for the admins' judgement) could be achieved the same way with a thread in the commons. Just make sure it's understood that you don't want any discussion, and you're only explaining for the sake of letting members know why their friends aren't posting.

It seems taht in your mind, the only people that matter during a disciplinary action are the admins and the member being punished. Yet, your decisions set precedents and tell other members what they can and cannot do. As such, every time someone is suspended or banned, it has the potential to affect the entire board on some level. Which is why Koroks Rock gets brought up. Effectively, it showed that members could be suspended over a disclaimer.

Even so, I remind you again, that the rules were changed independent of me. How can you say, with that in mind, that the problem with the old rules was me?

Your theory is that if people like me left, people wouldn't complain. Well I was gone for over a month, and in that period of time, you theory was proven wrong.

[Selena]

*sticks head into the thread* If we have no Jail, I certainly wouldn't mind a stickied thread in either the Commons or somewhere else where we could look to see who's been suspended, what for, and for how long (or who's banned). With vBulletin it's harder to see who's been banninated than with Invision. And the fact that the list of suspended members was taken out of that one section (forum leaders, I believe?) it's harder to tell who's in the time-out box, at least for normal members. Especially since no one's using that suspended users thread in the mod forum. But, that's... about it. That way there'd be none of the spam and arguing and still have the communication effect of the Jail.

Yeah. o.o

[Khuffie]

You also had the Jail, whose only saving grace was that it told people how and why other members were being punished.  This set precedents, and skimming through the first post of multiple jail threads would be, in effect, reading the list of LA's rules.  You HAD rules before, or people would never have been punished; the rules just weren't written down.

That was the only saving grace of the jail.  That needs to be stressed.

The same effect (building respect for the admins' judgement) could be achieved the same way with a thread in the commons.  Just make sure it's understood that you don't want any discussion, and you're only explaining for the sake of letting members know why their friends aren't posting.

I'm talking to Vet, and will be bringing back something similar to the jail.

Even so, I remind you again, that the rules were changed independent of me.  How can you say, with that in mind, that the problem with the old rules was me?

Your theory is that if people like me left, people wouldn't complain.  Well I was gone for over a month, and in that period of time, you theory was proven wrong.

I never said the problem with the rules is you. And I never said that if people like you left, people won't complain. People complained about the rules, but did so in a civilised, not-holier-than-thou manner, and I listened. Which is what I've been saying all along.

[SteveT]

And I never said that if people like you left, people won't complain.

Edit Bah, I misread that. So wait. If people like me leaving doesn't solve the problem of people complaining, then how are we the problem?

People complained about the rules, but did so in a civilised, not-holier-than-thou manner, and I listened. Which is what I've been saying all along.

You also tend to throw around the phrases "high and mighty" and "holier-than-thou" a lot. As far as I can tell, that only comes up when I switch gears from arguing and namecalling to civilized debate before you have. That's more changing the tone of the conversation than being pompous.

[Khuffie]

Steve, this is what I mean by bad/uncivilised/holier-than-thou methods of complaining:
http://forums.legend...read.php?t=3251

Had I been PM'ed, or maybe even another admin PM'ed, I'd have been far more inclined to listen.

[SteveT]

Khuffie, if you want to start a quote war, be warned, I have ammo too. (That thread, for instance.)

I admit that my methods were not the best, but at least I had restraint.

Let's stay in THIS thread for the time being, because this is the thread where we're actually communicating.

[Khuffie]

You had doubts about what I meant with something, and I provided an example. In fact, that thread itself represents almost all of what I'm talking about.

[SteveT]

In fact, that thread itself represents almost all of what I'm talking about.

If you're referring to the sarcastic comments and such, then yeah. However, you never seem to say I'm acting "high and mighty" and what-have-you until after those have stopped. Hence the confusion.

Incidentally, that thread shows a grievance or two of mine as well.

[Selena]

Okay, okay, okay, you guys are just ripping at each other now. x.x


Back to the good, civilized issues at hand with LA! ...Please?

[SteveT]

sorry

[joeymartin64]

Okay, okay, okay, you guys are just ripping at each other now. x.x

You think so? It really looks more to me like they're just clarifying previously unclear messages. I must say, in all candor, that I'm thoroughly impressed with the way this is looking. Call me a naive incurable optimist if you will, but I think this whole thing will come out for the better. That's... all I've got to say.

[Khuffie]

I've created a Member Notices forum:
http://forums.legend...isplay.php?f=50

That's all suspended members see. Any suspension/banning will be posted there. (of course banned members won't be able to see it).

[Eric]

I've created a Member Notices forum:
http://forums.legend...isplay.php?f=50

That's all suspended members see. Any suspension/banning will be posted there. (of course banned members won't be able to see it).

That seems kind of pointless. I think if I were suspended/banned, that'd be the ONLY forum I could see. I'd like to know why, if I didn't know already, why that had happened.

[Khuffie]

That seems kind of pointless. I think if I were suspended/banned, that'd be the ONLY forum I could see. I'd like to know why, if I didn't know already, why that had happened.

Huh? o.O

[thabto81]

First off, Steve, it is quite possible that the ideas you submitted to the forums administrators because of what you saw as a problem they accepted because of what they saw as bettering their forums.

Second, I fail to see how you're being civil about this when your signature is an obvious jab at Khuffie.

Third, and this is more general, I don't understand why so many people here feel the need to know who is banned from what and the reason behind it. As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of a few people here and there, I don't care who is banned. And if one of those people I am friends with is banned I would hope that we are close enough for them to tell me they were banned. In my opinion, it serves no purpose whatsoever to state publicly all banned persons except to fulfill the gossiping tendencies of those asking for it.

[Selena]

Meh, can't please everybody at the same time, I suppose. Some like knowing, others won't care. But the thing is... if you don't care you can just not look. It does serve a purpose, however. I, as a mod especially, don't like being out of the loop AND it might just allow admins to see how other admins behave and begin to follow the same pattern.


And what does Steve's sig have to do with Khuffie? O.o

[SteveT]

First off, Steve, it is quite possible that the ideas you submitted to the forums administrators because of what you saw as a problem they accepted because of what they saw as bettering their forums.

Ummm...that sentence is kinda ambiguous, but if you're saying what I think you are, then that just means that solving problems is good for the forum...which is what I always thought, and why I brought them up.

Second, I fail to see how you're being civil about this when your signature is an obvious jab at Khuffie.

Yeah, umm...not so much. I'm not sure why you'd think that.

Third, and this is more general, I don't understand why so many people here feel the need to know who is banned from what and the reason behind it. As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of a few people here and there, I don't care who is banned. And if one of those people I am friends with is banned I would hope that we are close enough for them to tell me they were banned. In my opinion, it serves no purpose whatsoever to state publicly all banned persons except to fulfill the gossiping tendencies of those asking for it.

That becomes a matter of preference. I've explained why I think putting these things in the sphere of public knowledge is a good idea more than once in this thread. There are advantages to either system, but I firmly believe this one has more.

[thabto81]

Ummm...that sentence is kinda ambiguous, but if you're saying what I think you are, then that just means that solving problems is good for the forum...which is what I always thought, and why I brought them up.

It goes back to what Khuffie said about blowing certain problems out of proportion. What you might see as a full scale catastrophe others might see as a minor kink in the system.

Yeah, umm...not so much.  I'm not sure why you'd think that.

It's passive-agressive and you know it.

That becomes a matter of preference.  I've explained why I think putting these things in the sphere of public knowledge is a good idea more than once in this thread.  There are advantages to either system, but I firmly believe this one has more.

And Khuffie has explained that you don't need to know it and that it has nothing to do with you. Again, if the person has no significance in your time here then what do you need to know for? Selena has a valid reason, what about you?

And what does Steve's sig have to do with Khuffie? O.o

He's quoting Khuffie's first post in this thread.

[Selena]

...He's had that in his sig for a while now, you know. Long before this thread. I hardly believe it has anything to do with Khuffie and more to do with his (failing) quest to stay away. As for my valid reasons, Steve said pretty much the same thing as I did. Laaay off him. He's being more civil than I expected the man to be.

[SteveT]

He's quoting Khuffie's first post in this thread.

No. I'm not. I've had that sig for a month. It's a joke. I was gone from the LA, and I came back, never openly admitting to it due to a joke with Hero of Winds. Same with "Location: Gone."

It goes back to what Khuffie said about blowing certain problems out of proportion. What you might see as a full scale catastrophe others might see as a minor kink in the system.

Nonetheless, those things need to be addressed.

And Khuffie has explained that you don't need to know it and that it has nothing to do with you. Again, if the person has no significance in your time here then what do you need to know for? Selena has a valid reason, what about you?

I will quote myself on the issue, becuase like I said I've said everything already:

You also had the Jail, whose only saving grace was that it told people how and why other members were being punished. This set precedents, and skimming through the first post of multiple jail threads would be, in effect, reading the list of LA's rules. You HAD rules before, or people would never have been punished; the rules just weren't written down.

That was the only saving grace of the jail. That needs to be stressed.

The same effect (building respect for the admins' judgement) could be achieved the same way with a thread in the commons. Just make sure it's understood that you don't want any discussion, and you're only explaining for the sake of letting members know why their friends aren't posting.

It seems taht in your mind, the only people that matter during a disciplinary action are the admins and the member being punished. Yet, your decisions set precedents and tell other members what they can and cannot do. As such, every time someone is suspended or banned, it has the potential to affect the entire board on some level.

One of the strengths (perhaps the only strength) of the jail forum was that whenever someone was jailed, the first post would be an explanation of WHY that person was jailed. The admins explained their actions, and so long as the punishment was logical and fair, no one contested it. This built respect for the admins.

I think the Member Alerts forum looks good, by the way, Khuff.

[Khuffie]

Uhh, thabto, his sig has nothing to do with me.

[davogones]

The point of "rebelling" on a forum truly escapes me. If a forum is run by asshole idiot dictators, nothing anybody can do will change anything, because admins are god. On the other hand, if a forum is run by benevolent, excellent people who care, they will be willing to listen to reasonable suggestions. They will not appreciate their authority being undermined unfairly. So, a "revolution" either accomplishes nothing, or makes a good admin pissed at you.

I'm an admin. Did anyone even consider asking me for advice or bringing up issues with me before starting yelling publicly? This is ridiculous. Stop the bullshit. Grow up, smell the flowers, move on. Treat everyone like human beings and we'll listen to you.

[Chikara Nadir]

I...really can't say much myself at this point, except to state my disappointment that for all the screaming and all the cries of never being listened to- Steve is the only person I can think of who EVER PMs/IMs me with concerns about how the forums are being run. I'm always stating that my PM box is open, that I want to listen to any concerns or...anything people may have to say about the state of the forums- but myself and the other admins, and I'm sure almost all of the mods, seldom (if ever) privately receive comments on the way things are happening, what needs to be changed, behaviour of other members/mods/admins.

As I never hear of serious complaints being addressed to myself or other leaders, imagine my shock of being gone a day and seeing this? What selfishness exists in only being willing to question authority and the order of the forums where everyone else can see you, as if it makes you a great patron to scream in the open, rather than trying to quickly and quietly ressolve matters by speaking directly to those in power- those who HAVE this power specifically to HELP make sure the forums are as orderly and fun as possible.

I don't question whether revolutions are good or bad- it depends on the circumstances, and this is always a learning process for all of us. I just hope for the sake of everyone that we realize one thing: too much fighting will cause more trouble than good. I want to help in all the 'problems' of LA being resolved, but if we become too embittered toward one another, many people will rather leave entirely to stay out of the squabble.

We need freedom- but violent speech and insults is seldom the way to do it. This is not a matter of the kind of prejudice and turmoil that MLK Jr or Gandhi faced, but I only hope that the fighting that has been and will continue to take place for now...stays civilized, and that everyone here only fights for what they want LA to be like, not ever for the sake of disagreeing.

[thabto81]

No.  I'm not.  I've had that sig for a month.  It's a joke.  I was gone from the LA, and I came back, never openly admitting to it due to a joke with Hero of Winds.  Same with "Location: Gone."

You're right and I apologize. I was getting it mixed with something else.

It seems taht in your mind, the only people that matter during a disciplinary action are the admins and the member being punished. Yet, your decisions set precedents and tell other members what they can and cannot do.

The admins explained their actions, and so long as the punishment was logical and fair, no one contested it. This built respect for the admins.

Yes I remember reading this the first time and I will stick to my argument. Unless you've done an unofficial poll stating that having the jail built respect for the admins you're doing nothing but drawing off your own assumtions. If you did do a poll that came to that conclusion then I will apologze. If not then there really is no reason for you to know who has been banned or suspended seeing as you are not administrator.

[Selena]

'kay, well, you realize it's a bit late now. o.O


And like I said, if you don't feel you need to know... just don't read it! Whether or not people 'respect' admins more because of this forum doesn't really matter and isn't the main point of it. It's mainly there for people to know what's going on. And like I said, if it doesn't matter to you, don't read it. Others, however, might be curious, so it's a fair choice for everyone, no? Don't care, don't read. Care, go ahead and look for your answers.

[SteveT]

Yes I remember reading this the first time and I will stick to my argument. Unless you've done an unofficial poll stating that having the jail built respect for the admins you're doing nothing but drawing off your own assumtions. If you did do a poll that came to that conclusion then I will apologze. If not then there really is no reason for you to know who has been banned or suspended seeing as you are not administrator.

Well, such a poll won't be made by me. It would seem to violate the Khuffie-SteveT Peace Treaty.

However, if I may have a philisophical interlude.

What is the real purpose of jail? Does jail exist to punish criminals or is it meant to be a deterrent to crime or does jail exist to protect citizens from criminals? If you feel it's soley the first, then obviously there's no point in the authority to say why people are in jail, becuase it's between them and the criminal. For the second two components of its purpose, though, it makes perfect sense for people to know about who's in jail and why. But, there's that redundancy again. Probably better to drop it.

[thabto81]

And like I said, if you don't feel you need to know... just don't read it!  Whether or not people 'respect' admins more because of this forum doesn't really matter and isn't the main point of it.  It's mainly there for people to know what's going on.  And like I said, if it doesn't matter to you, don't read it.  Others, however, might be curious, so it's a fair choice for everyone, no?  Don't care, don't read.  Care, go ahead and look for your answers.

But don't you see, if you take away the sole purpose of Steve's argument, which is that it builds respect for the authorities, then all you're left with is that it's there to satisfy people's curiousity of who's banned. And, I'm sorry, but that's just a bunch of bullshit. Satisfying people's curiousity so they can gossip about it later is just plain unnecessary.

What is the real purpose of jail? Does jail exist to punish criminals or is it meant to be a deterrent to crime or does jail exist to protect citizens from criminals? If you feel it's soley the first, then obviously there's no point in the authority to say why people are in jail, becuase it's between them and the criminal. For the second two components of its purpose, though, it makes perfect sense for people to know about who's in jail and why. But, there's that redundancy again. Probably better to drop it.

Bad analogy. People who are banned from a forum can still do their stuff at other forums and converse with people outside said forum. If the jail is there to satisfy your own curiousity and maybe even get a few jabs in at the person being jailed than it's unnecessary.