107 replies to this topic

[SteveT]

After some thought, I came to the conclusion that the worst part about this whole affair has been the conduct of the people involved. This goes for both sides.

LoS pretty much established taht this thread was where we would put aside the sarcasm, swearing, threats, and personal attacks and try to work a few things out. So far Masa, myself, and now Son of Jor-El have been been doing our best to do just that. For the sake of courtesy, please do the same. If nothing else, this way we'll come to actually understand each other.

And "utilitarian bitches"? What does that even mean?

[Khuffie]

Son of Jor-El said

C-mon. I realize you own these boards, but that helps nothing. They aren't the only ones that have problems with some things that go on. I see some stuff I don't really appreciate. They're some of the same stuff SteveT has laid out. I never said anything because I thought I might be the only one. I also didn't feel it would be all that welcome even if I pmed you or another admin. On top of that, I have only been a member for a little over a year. I do not post often, and in Contro when I do. I am not as familar with a lot of people here as others. Partly because I have chosen not to be part of a dorm. Also because if I do not fell I have something to contribute to the thread, normally, I will not post there. I didn't feel speaking out was my place. So, I kept my mouth shut.

What they did was far from constructive. They come into threads where people are having fun, and lay down the law as they see it, and proceed to change the atmosphere. Stuff like this has been going on for ages, and I'm getting sick of it. It's unwanted and unwelcome here.

And I've said this and I've said this and I've said this over and over again: if you have a problem, PM an admin. Avoid saying things like: "I THINK YOU'RE WRONG YOU ASSHAT! DO THIS!" and we'll listen. I don't care whether you signed up last year or last week, I'll listen. I won't know there's a problem unless people tell me. I'm not God, I don't see everything. And even if I do, my interpretation could be different than yours. So just do it.

Voicing your concerns within random threads at every oppurtinity is not constructive, but destructive. And what Dryth said is true: they do have sticks up their asses, and they are utilitarian bitches. I have no qualms in saying this, because frankly, I've lost my patience with them completely.

Quote

Older member spamming doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when older members spam and then proceed to speak out when a newer member spams.

That bothers me too. In fact, anyone proceeding to claim that something is spam bothers me. And I've added that to the rules.

And to answer your second concern, and I will do this in public for once so you guys can see that I do respond to your concerns if you voice them out:

DJ, and this goes to other admins: He does have a point there. You are a great admin and people do respect you, but it would really help if you keep the comments such as that one out of the forums. People do make mistakes. Give them the benifit of the doubt. Just refer the person to the rule and close the thread if need be.

And Steve, don't act high and mighty when you're guilty of the same.

[SteveT]

Don't accuse me of acting high and mighty when I admitted to being guilty of the same.

All I'm saying is we should all try not to be guilty of it HERE in the this thread.

[Alakhriveion]

Quote

The first is comprised of members, people like Alak and HoW, who think they can interpret our rules, who think they can be the ones to decide what should happen and what does not.

OK. I'm being lumped in here, and again in the mod forum, and to clarify:

I have opinions on how this place should be run. Occasionally I express them. I do believe that there are changes which should be made. I am most emphatically not opposed to the administration or the board or the community, I'm merely in favor of reform. I do not break the rules, and I do not make such matters public. I can have opinions without "Think[ing] [I] can be the one to decide what should happen."

[Dryth]

Steve T said

And "utilitarian bitches"? What does that even mean?

Habitual, hypocritical, insultory and bigoted whiners who're only interested in "Number 1." Not targetted at you, for reference.

Certain past instances simply make me seriously question the stances held by certain individuals. I thought some level of understanding had previously been achieved. Present circumstances make me seriously suspect otherwise.

[SteveT]

Ah, THAT kind of utilitarian. Somehow I thought you meant something about how they believed in things being practical and functional, and I couldn't fathom how you could mean that as an insult...(who am I kidding. That's still the only definition of utilitarian I've ever heard and I'm not about to change now.)

Any understanding thus far has been seriously flawed. To mix together various quotes from Khuffie, the sentiment on his side has been "You're the problem, and you're not f*cking helping." The prevailing attitude on our side has been the same.

What needs to be realized is that BOTH sides are the problem. As has been pointed out (I will use myself and Khuffie as representatives for the sake of having one-word names for the groups involved), I've been guilty of using the entirely wrong methods to make my point. Khuffie's been using the entirely wrong methods to deal with my dissent. Suck-ups were using the entirely wrong methods to make the admins like them. And neutral parties were using (for teh sake of the motif) the entirely wrong methods to stay neutral.

If I were to leave, problems would remain. They'd just have no spokesman (except Alak, who by contrast has been doing things right. Lay off him.) Khuffie seems to mistake a lack of people talking about problems with a lack of problems. Another fallacy I see is calling all complains "whining for no reason." I'm surely guilty of my own fallacies. There was a period where I, like a college student looks for reasons to hate Bush, I looked for reasons to get mad at Khuffie. That all needs to stop if anyone's gonna be making any progress.

Another fallacy is that we're trying to get ourselves banned for teh sake of martyrdom. I can't speak for all of them, but I tried to clear this up earlier and was summarily ignored. We're not trying to get banned to strengthen our cause or whatever. We simply accept that we probably will get banned, and any martyrdom would potentially inspire someone else to replace us. Yes, Khuffie, you have your AIM quotes. This counts as "proof" only through another piece of flawed understanding: Masa and I are, in fact, sarcastic bastards and not everything we say is a declaritive sentence about our true motives and point of view. Unless we specifically state that we're serious, we're probably not. We're oversimplifying and using sarcasism to add levity to an otherwise serious topic. In this case, that's a bad habit, and you'll notice a lack of sarcasm in my posts in this thread.

This thread is probably they most progress I've made, and if not for LoS's blessing, I'd still be doing things the entirely wrong way. But name-calling doesn't help.

[Black Knight]

SteveT said

Dryth, you claim there is no communication problem between admins and members.  Yet how many people outside of the mods and admins even KNEW that Alistia was Bhelliom, or why he was banned under either name?  What about the incident.  It was treated with the utmost melodrama and secrecy, and the usual response to questions about it was "It's just a forum.  GOD! Get over it and shut up."  That, to me, is amazingly ironic.  Everytime someone says "It's just a forum," they say it with the utmost melodrama.

There are plenty other secrects, but I won't divulge them here.  It's not my place to do so.  Obviously, there are times when the secrecy is more than justified, but public events deserve public response.  

My "communication" with admins has been as follows (not all of these are members of the current admin team, and I won't give names for the sake of courtesy):

- Perfectly civil relationships with 3
- One threatened to suspend me over an April Fool's Day joke
- One favored the f-word throughout the course of the conversation

So yes, depending on the situation and the admin involved, the communication can be very free and open, but there are serious exceptions that detract from the sense of community.

Also, Dryth, I would ask you not to try to ruin the civil tone of this thread.  We were asked to express out concerns, and the stick-in-ass comment was entirely uncalled for.



I suppose the obvious response is: Spoiler tags are stupid, too much work, and don't add to the forums?  SPOILER TAGS?  I mean, that one should be a standard feature on message boards...

I wholly agree on NYC about the Welcome forum.  I'm sure I siad something to Chikara to that effect when it was first made.

Wasn't Alistia banned because she/he cursed at DJ in Clocktown? I think it was on Dormstice Day...

[SteveT]

That was the cover story and the excuse to finally do it, but the situation was far more complicated.

[Black Knight]

Well... why not enlighten us?

[Hero of Winds]

Khuffie said

What they did was far from constructive. They come into threads where people are having fun, and lay down the law as they see it, and proceed to change the atmosphere. Stuff like this has been going on for ages, and I'm getting sick of it. It's unwanted and unwelcome here.

Where do you think that started, Khuffie? How do you think that started? Here's the problem: the enforcement of the rules, or lack thereof. There is a total lack of balance when admins/mods execute actions through the rules. They either enforce the rules too strictly, or not at all. There's no in-between as you seem to be suggesting, Khuffie, by referencing the infamous "Toan post."

Khuffie said

I have this to say:
SteveT, HoW and Masamune: you three are no longer welcome here by me. You're attitude in expressing your gripes with any ''problems'' you may think are in LA are not welcome. You also fail to see that the cause of the problems are people like you. So I ask you to leave of your own accord.

Here you do nothing but support the statement "LA is perfect, and you should leave if you don't think so." I'm not "bitching" for the sake of being annoying, but for the sake of getting people's attention, making them aware that LA has some problems that need to be worked out. By telling us to leave, you do nothing but run away from the problem and lose the image of a benevolent administrator that you've been trying to establish.

Furthermore, you stated that if a member has a problem, then he or she should contact an administrator. If you haven't realized Khuffie, we can't talk to you. I tried last night, you said you were busy. Masa tried a while ago, you cursed him out.

And Dryth, do you really think bringing up the ZA incident was a good idea? Especially considering how that turned out?

EDIT-I'd also like to respond to the statement of me being a martyr, which I am not trying to be. As of now, I'm hated by too many people to be considered anything good. My only intent is to make the members of this forum more aware of what's going on.

[Oberon Storm]

Khuffie said

What they did was far from constructive. They come into threads where people are having fun, and lay down the law as they see it, and proceed to change the atmosphere. Stuff like this has been going on for ages, and I'm getting sick of it. It's unwanted and unwelcome here.

And I've said this and I've said this and I've said this over and over again: if you have a problem, PM an admin. Avoid saying things like: "I THINK YOU'RE WRONG YOU ASSHAT! DO THIS!" and we'll listen. I don't care whether you signed up last year or last week, I'll listen. I won't know there's a problem unless people tell me. I'm not God, I don't see everything. And even if I do, my interpretation could be different than yours. So just do it.

Voicing your concerns within random threads at every oppurtinity is not constructive, but destructive. And what Dryth said is true: they do have sticks up their asses, and they are utilitarian bitches. I have no qualms in saying this, because frankly, I've lost my patience with them completely.

No. They haven't been constructive in the past. And you do have every right to be upset. But in their defense, in this thread they have kept it civil.

Khuffie said

That bothers me too. In fact, anyone proceeding to claim that something is spam bothers me. And I've added that to the rules.

I remember you said something about a rule change. I forgot the look. Thanks for the reminder.

[Zythe]

Hero, please, heed Khuff's advice and leave before you are banned and loose all glory. At least keep a shred of dignity before you go.

[wisp]

Zythe, let the man air his concerns about the forum! That's what this thread is for, and you are not doing anybody any favors by walking in here and pretending like you know everything that is going on. The discussion has been civil, for the most part, so far, and I'm holding onto a hope that by the end of this thread, we might all reach some kind of conclusion as to what to do about the state of LA.

[Some Girl]

Hero of Winds said

And Dryth, do you really think bringing up the ZA incident was a good idea? Especially considering how that turned out?

It is, since you guys pulled this same shit there and it was the reason why Melora and I left.

[Black Knight]

Zythe said

Hero, please, heed Khuff's advice and leave before you are banned and loose all glory. At least keep a shred of dignity before you go.

I want to find out what this is all about first. I don't like being in the dark about it, so let the man speak his mind!

[Masamune]

Dammit. I didn't plan to post in this again. Let's bring up the ZA thing? May I ask why? I was the only one who argued. And God forgive me for doing it. Next time we come up with an idea and have someone flip it over, I'll not argue and instead sit happily like an obedient dog.

Steve wasn't involved in that and HoW tried to play peace-maker in that. So please, don't go around dragging up dirt that is completely irrelevant.

And hey, next time I have an argument, maybe I'll up and randomly invite all my friends to back me up in something irrelevant to them. And then, once I do that, I can run into the topic and start accusing people of being trolls when in fact, I'm the one doing the trolling by trudging up dirt irrelevant to the situation.

[Zythe]

nycounterpoint said

Zythe, let the man air his concerns about the forum! That's what this thread is for, and you are not doing anybody any favors by walking in here and pretending like you know everything that is going on. The discussion has been civil, for the most part, so far, and I'm holding onto a hope that by the end of this thread, we might all reach some kind of conclusion as to what to do about the state of LA.

I was just trying to support Khuffie and keep a fight from breaking out. Sorry.

:upset:

[Some Girl]

I thought you were leaving, Masamune? Haven't you been a drama queen enough in this thread?

And this is relevant to ZA because its the same bossy crap you guys tried to pull. Keep playing your tiny violin for show.

[Oberon Storm]

And the civility begins that distinctive counterclockwise (clockwise in Austrailia) rotation.

I don't know what ZA is. I don't know what happened at ZA. I don't care. This isn't ZA. This is LA. And until now, things have been pretty civil. I beg that you two do not change that.

[lord-of-shadow]

Khuffie, Dryth - You both have my respect, my admiration. In fact, if I were asked to name the one person whom I respect and admire the most - not on this forum, not on the internet, but in my entire life - it would probably be you, Dryth. If I were told to name someone I would like to emulate in some ways, you would be the top of the list. I remember once, it must have been a year ago, Louisa said that I was like your mini-me. That was one of the best complements I ever recieved, I thought at the time. I still think so. Khuffie, though I don't quite hold you as high in my esteem as I do Dryth, you are a good friend, a helpful friend, and the guy in charge of what has been my favorite internet community. You started an awesome, idealistic project in Zelda Alliance, and I loved the idea. You're co-webmaster of my favorite Zelda site, the site I work for. I've played Halo 2 online with you, and enjoyed every minute of it.

I hope, one of these days, to make it up to Toronto and meet both of you.

HOWEVER... Masamune and SteveT are good friends as well, especially Masamune, and I feel that they have been some of the most valuable assets to this community. I haven't really interacted with HoW as much, but I consider him, too, a friend. And colleague - he works for ZL, too.

When a fight is erupting between these two groups - two groups entirely composed of people whom I trust, people whom I like, people whose opinions and views I value and listen to... people whom I usually consider levelheaded and intelligent, then something is wrong. Especially when you all seem to have the same goals in mind here: To make these forums a better place.

What the hell is going on here? You're all great people, you all have similar or identical values when it comes to the health of this community. Why is it coming to this?


And, though you may not like the sounds of this, while reading through this thread, it seems clear to me that it is you, Khuffie, and you, Dryth, that are not cooperating with my goal of fixing this problem. Masamune and SteveT laid their cards on the table, so to speak. They said what they believed, they said it civilly and with as much respect as can be expected. They both have admitted some of their mistakes, they have both made it clear thay they realize that they have stepped over the line in a few areas. SteveT gives a well-reasoned point about what he believes is one of the causes in this breakdown. They demonstrate that they understand that the problem lies in both parties here. Later on in the thread, HoW does the same.

You, Khuffie, and you, Dryth... the very last people I would expect to do this, seem to avoid the issue. Instead, you start referring to past problems at ZA, or you try to turn it into one of those dead-end quote wars.

Regardless of who is more to blame for starting these problems, SteveT, Masamune, and HoW seem willing to try to work through this. Khuffie, Dryth... what are you trying to accomplish? You're just sitting here, countering points brought up and trying to argue against this all, as if that will somehow solve the problem. Or you try to tell everyone to leave, as if getting rid of the loudest voices in the opposition will solve the problems.

I am sick of this. Sick and tired of this... unnecessary, pointless fighting. Sick of seeing all my friends going at each others throats.

[Veteran]

Some Girl said

I thought you were leaving, Masamune?  Haven't you been a drama queen enough in this thread?

And this is relevant to ZA because its the same bossy crap you guys tried to pull.  Keep playing your tiny violin for show.

I don't give a shit who's right and who's wrong right now - we want all opinions expressed BUT in a civil way, which means no name-calling.

Now please, lets keep going properly.

[Dryth]

Masamune said

And hey, next time I have an argument, maybe I'll up and randomly invite all my friends to back me up in something irrelevant to them. And then, once I do that, I can run into the topic and start accusing people of being trolls when in fact, I'm the one doing the trolling by trudging up dirt irrelevant to the situation.

Irrelevant to the situation? How so, exactly? You took the exact same approach in the ZA incident that you are now, with a handful of the same players, and many of the same complaints mapped to a different context.


And I'm sorry LoS. I'll step out.

[Selena]

I'm still trying to figure out when this all happened? Surely it wasn't just the hack that caused it. It may have jumpstarted some of it, but certainly not all. Was it just before that all of this crap (and yes, it is just that) started happening? I'm just... so frustrated with all of this fighting. I mean, come on! Steve, Masa and HoW! You dudes r0x0red the ultimate b0x0rz back in the day before this stuff started. Well all used to get along so well (even Steve and I, after I initially was prone to bickering in the early days of DeMoun).


But is this all really worth risking our friendships for? I mean, the intarweb can't be THAT damned important. I also have to say... the excuse that the rules are more strictly enforced now because there are more idiots on the forum who can't follow them... is a fairly pathetic excuse. There were just as many dorks back then who couldn't listen, and we seldom had these little problems. Or at least, not to the degree that we do now. So what happened?


My issues? Hell, I think we're being TOO Nazi-ish with our rules. So there's some spam in a few threads? Who cares! Spam, although irritating en mass, can be fun and refreshing in the midst of serious posts. People enjoy their freedoms, and I think we may very well be starting to hinder them too much. At least... that's what I've noticed. Take, for example, a thread that had one or two members threatening to blow up LA with a molotov for no good reason and had little value to posting. It'd probably be locked today, right? Hey, I remember Emiko and I doing something like that at least twice. Or Jericho's big dorm war thread (may be a poor member to include, but the thread itself is what I'm getting at). I've seen a handful of threads that were okay and approved in the past that are being locked left and right today.

*sigh* But like nyc briefly mentioned in her post a while back, I don't agree with the Welcome forum. I really think it should go. Whenever we had birthdays or newbies in the past, they were welcomed openly and warmly (unless they were rude) in the Commons. Everyone usually checks out the Commons unless they tend to lurk in one section of the forum, like the storyliners or contro people. Now? Hell, I forget the welcome forum is there. People seem to be drawn to it when a popular, more well known member has a birthday or is returning (if their name is in the title), but most others seem slightly ignored compared to what they used to be.

Jail... I can see why it may have had its certain downfalls (silly spam, rebelling members), but I dunno. It was nice to know what was happening. Sure, I'm a mod and am privy to a lot of the secret stuff, but for normal members it might be productive if it had been enforced more. I like knowing what was happening. Now, you can't even tell who's banned or who's suspended. Half the time, ~I~ don't know what's going on and I can get into the mod forum. But this one can be debated.

Dorms probably have something to do with it (I know I only lurked in LoD most of the time). But, the thing is, I can't think of anything to fix them. But the dorm mods, supermod, and admin are already trying to remedy this ASAP. So we'll see how that turns out. Hopefully for the best. x.x


I think we all just need to lighten up and have fun again. And now I've lost my train of thought. *sigh*

[lord-of-shadow]

Meh. I've been having quite a bit of private discussion on the side, as goes without saying.

I've had some misconceptions here, some false assumptions, but in the end... I consider too many of you good friends. It is impossible for me to continue trying to fix things up without damaging some of these friendships beyond repair.

So I am bowing out of this discussion. Perhaps it is the cowardly thing to do, but I value my friendships more than I value my goals in this thread.

I'll help pick up the pieces when everything is done, but until then, I'll leave you to it.

[SteveT]

There really isn't a clear begining to any of this, Selena. If there was, it'd be a lot easier to deal with.

I don't particularly think that rules are being enforced too strictly or not strictly enough. It's that they are enforced inconsistantly, and people are punished for unwritten rules (Koroks Rock). The new rules helped a LOT for the second half because they were modelled after precedents set by admins.

And LoS, you granted us protection so we could say what we want. If there's anything you need to say to me in private, I offer you the same.

[Hero of Winds]

SteveT said

I don't particularly think that rules are being enforced too strictly or not strictly enough.  It's that they are enforced inconsistantly, and people are punished for unwritten rules (Koroks Rock).  The new rules helped a LOT for the second half because they were modelled after precedents set by admins.

I don't have much to contribute to the discussion at this point in time, but you reminded me of one person: Kairu Hakubi. In the Anime/Manga forum, he gave his opinion on what a moron is. He didn't name any names. Hell, he didn't even imply anyone in the thread was a moron. But DJ suspended him. For no reason at all (he didn't give one, and I don't see any basis in the rules for his decision).

I think Steve said it the best: there is inconsistency in how the rules are being enforced.

[Selena]

Yeah... I know there's inconsistency. A warning for one admin is a flat-out IP ban for another, and same with the mods. But, the thing is, they're all human. You could easily say that you could lay out ground rules for what should be a ban, or a suspension, or a warning. But the thing is, sometimes there's all these little special circumstances that can effect a judgement call. Too many to list, for that matter. So it's difficult to just say: This is worth a suspension, but not a banning.


When there's only one admin online and something has to be done... they're naturally going to deal with it in their own way. Some are too harsh, others may be to lax. Maybe just the big ones can be dealt with in the same way. And when one does something that is unwarrented (in the case of Korok's Rock, which I fail to understand to this day), another will lessen it accordingly to more acceptable levels (i.e.: turning a banning into a week suspension or less).


It's just... difficult to find a clear-cut solution.

[Veteran]

lord-of-shadow said

So I am bowing out of this discussion. Perhaps it is the cowardly thing to do, but I value my friendships more than I value my goals in this thread.  

I'll help pick up the pieces when everything is done, but until then, I'll leave you to it.

Then I will pick up the baton and continue this moderating between both parties. I too consider all these people friends even though I don't know half of them half as well as you do.

So I extend the same curtosy, people are free to express their opinions politely without the fear of banning.

[Zythe]

While we're on the subject, I have always felt lucky that no matter how violent the arguments between HoW and myself got, they still spared us with jailing at most. And I'm so grateful that a kind admin, like Vet or Chik sorted it out. I always have this fear that I will say something and DJ or LoS will take it the wrong way and ban me. Hell, I've got about three PMs saying that I'm close to banning, and I've always (especially recently) tried my hardest not to purposely offend anyone.

If I think back to the "dark kidbuu" incidents, I always wondered if he had not joined in the fights with HoW, and given me room to back out of them, would I have been banned instead? Anyway. Just to change the mood, I'm forever grateful that my IP has been spared.

[Toan]

Hero of Winds said

There's no in-between as you seem to be suggesting, Khuffie, by referencing the infamous "Toan post."

Oy, I'm mentioned in this topic before I even get here...and dubbing such a post "infamous"...it was a rather poor post, really. I can tell you I'd rather not have a situation cause me to post that in the first place... (here's the post for those of you who didn't see it):

Fishy said

...I don't know what's with everyone, I just don't get it.

Before LA got hacked, the rules were an afterthought to everything; having fun came first. It's almost as if the hack changed people rather than how the site looked because suddenly everyone is either having a problem with the rules or just plain whining about them. No one said a WORD about leadership quality or what-not beforehand.

Why can't we just go back to the way things were...

And before anyone says "Things have changed", that's total bullshit. Things haven't changed, people apparently changed. Rather than LA being a place where we can escape everyday life and come have some fun, now it's becoming a place for people to use loopholes and make this more like a friggin government, hence the cry for more "specific rules". Once we get those rules however, people use those loopholes again to complain someone did something wrong. Congrats, everyone negative in this thread makes GREAT lawyers. <_< Why can't we just have some fucking FUN?

I still stand by what I said, unfortunately. 'Cept for the lawyer part, that was for the other thread... That's all I really have to say about this right now...

And, lastly... it's l-o-s... he's not capitalized it! I'm sorry, it's just been bugging me to see every variation of his name here... >.>