107 replies to this topic

[Zythe]

Welcome back, Darklink, if it really is you. I don't think we ever really spoke... you never seemed to leave the RPG sections. But it's nice to have you back, nontheless.

If you guys want to discuss things like rule exemptions, do so in a new thread, in Comments and Suggestions. I will address your issues there.

OK. Erm, clarify? Discuss?

[chef]

Too bad you put this in the games and not suggestions.

[Zythe]

What.... I thought this was suggestions! Some one move this, please. ... :| ... ... :twitch: ... :upset:

[Hero of Winds]

If you guys want to discuss things like rule exemptions, do so in a new thread, in Comments and Suggestions. I will address your issues there.

I don't know, l-o-s. Were I talk to about the rules or the administrators openly on a forum, for the whole world to see, I'd probably get banned.

[Selena]

*sigh* If one of the admins JUST told you it was okay to ask in a thread, I'd take up the offer instead of saying something that could easily start up a fight (and not just with the admins, since even I'm starting to get annoyed by the constant rebellion and nitpicking, too).

[Hero of Winds]

No, he simply said bring a discussion about rule exemptions to another thread. My thing is on a greater scale.

And rest assured, Selena, I'm not "picking fights" for the sake of being annoying.

[Selena]

Technically he said things like rule exemptions. But if you have more... just say it. Say it all, finally! Just let it out! Just be civil about it. But saying it all is better than just darting around the sidelines like you, Masa, and Steve been doing and questioning everything that's gone on here since the hack (and a little before). I really don't know what's happened. We all used to get along so well. Now there might as well be a battlefield around here. All I know is that all of this, both from you guys and some part on the admins, is just... really breaking the unity. All this drama over nothing is making me want to leave and just leave this crap for the rest of you to deal with.






....*takes a breath, rips out her hair, and then wanders away to saner places*



[/rant]

[Jaina]

moved ^^ yes..now let's not start a fight..I am sure LoS will be happy to discuss it

[Black Knight]

I agree with Selena. I used to have respect for you, Steve_T, and Masamune. I used to look up to you. Now you're just annoying. Do you want to be remembered like this or as a funny and appreciated member? Why don't you just leave if you hate this place so much?

[lord-of-shadow]

You guys have my protection here. I have asked you to state your problems here, and I will address them to the best of my ability. Nobody except Khuffie has the authority to gainsay me, and after I told you to speak here, you will not be banned.

Now... don't take this as permission to absolutely go batshit on us all.


I am sick and tired of the fighting, the tension, the fact that some members feel a need to rebel against our aministrative decisions, and the fact that our sense of a fun community has been completely annihilated.



What is the point of a forum? That would depend on the forum, now wouldn't it? So I'll rephrase that: What is the point of this forum? You'll get different answers from different people... some will say that it's so they can discuss the storyline of the Zelda games. Some will say it's to hang out with their friends. Some will say... etc., etc. But I am fairly sure that everyone will agree that the point of this place is to be an enjoyable community, one where serious discussions, friendly banter, speculation on Zelda, dorm competitions all take place. A place to make friends, a place to hang out with friends, a place to have fun, interact with people you respect or find funny or insightful.


Now. What are the purpose of the rules? I oftentimes wonder how many people truly think about this, the purpose behind a set of rules. Rules... are not here for Khuffie to have a dictatorship, as some of you seem to think. They are not here to give us chances to get old returning members in trouble.

No, the point of the rules is to keep this place in order. The point of the rules are the make this an enjoyable community. In short, the rules are there as safeguards, to make our goals of a good, fun, enjoyable, varied, and friendly community between a large group of friends and comtemporaries... possible.

The rules are there not as the be all and end all of the forums, but as a means to an end. They are a tool. The end that they work for takes precedence over these rules.


The purpose of a moderating and administrative team is to work towards this same end. We are not here to enforce rules. We are here to work towards that goal, and the rules are a tool that we use.


Do you understand my point, yet? My point is that, when something breaks the rules, that is not always an immediate reason to condemn it. When something seems to fit our definition of spaming, that does not necessarily mean we should instantly mob it.

If something adds to the forum, if something contributes towards our overall community goal and atmosphere, then it is a good thing... even if it seems to operate outside the bounds of the rules.


Let me give two examples, here.

The first is someone, say... VDD, making a totally inane and senseless two-sentence thread, about how his frogs just jumped out of their slime and started singing on his bedside table. Then a few people respond, playing along with the ridiculous, and everyone has a good time. They have fun. Now, this thread is kept open, because it does not conflict with the way we want the forum to be. It's fun. I don't know how well most of you remember these things, but threads like that used to be commonplace, popular, and fun around here.

The second example is a newbie with two posts, who comes on, notices our trend of random threads, and then goes on to personally make three or four or five or more, none of which spark any of the fun replies, none of which possess good grammar, none of which possess any of that spark of fun that is present in VDD's thread. These threads would probably get locked, the newbie chided.


Now, this whole system has some very obvious fallacies.

The first is when the administrative team loses sight of these goals. I myself, at another forum, was guilty of this once. I lost sight of the purpose behind the rules, and became a moderator who went around enforcing them, whether it was good for the community or not. That period hurt the community I moderated, but I eventually changed, when I saw what I was doing.

Another instance of an administrative team losing sight of it's goals would be if they begin to treat a forum as their personal playground. A place where they can do what they want, when they want, how they want, without any regards to how it will effect the atmosphere and individuals in the community.

A third is the simple fact that is it the administrative team's job to determine what is good and not good for the community. Humans are fallible creatures, and they do not always do this well or diplomatically. That leads to problems, obviously. It leads to threads that might actually benefit the community being locked, it leads to threads that definitely won't benefit the community being left open. It leads to chaos, a lack of balance, and maybe even the destruction of an established community or atmosphere. I have seen this happen as well - a forum go from fun and friendly to hostile and and dying.


But it's not always the administrative team that is at the heart of these problems. When members think that it is their place to try to enforce rules, or declare something spam or not, or choose to interprete the rules, or think that they can judge what is best for the forum... That leads to conflict with the administrative team, it leads to spam, it leads to incorrect interpretations of the rules and the forum, it leads to... a lack of balance, and the destruction of a community.


A community can only be successful when it's members and it's authority figures cooperate and work well together to create something that works. For years, LA has been one of the most successful communities I have ever seen. Period. Now, this... is being destroyed. The LA I knew and loved is dying, because of all these problems. If this goes on much further, this won't be a community I want to be a part of. I know for a fact that I am not the only one who feels this way.


The heart of our particular problem lies in two groups:

The first is comprised of members, people like Alak and HoW, who think they can interpret our rules, who think they can be the ones to decide what should happen and what does not. Some, like HoW, think that by martyring themselves, they can somehow further our cause. That is incorrect. All it does it further the chaos and tension, make people hate the mod team more, makes the mod team angrier and less able to think clearly.

The other group is the administrative team. Some on it are guilty of losing sight of the goal, and instead enforcing the rules too strictly without thinking about the consequences to the community. I myself have been on the sidelines for most of this conflict, but I will readily admit that it was in large part my unnecesarily strict and harsh moding in the Zelda sections that set off this whole mess.

Some are guilty of simply being too stubborn, or trying to hide or banish the problematic members, as if that will solve anything... as if tearing pieces out of our community will somehow heal it. That is incorrect. Tearing old members out and hoping that it will remove the dissent is a delaying tactic at best.


Some in both groups are simply not comprehending the situation, and unthinkingly following the leads of others.

The variety of problems and reasons are many, really.



But as I said early... a community, like a government, can only function and thrive when those in power and the community in general achieve a balance, work together, and respect each other and the other's responsibilities.



Now. I am willing to listen to the complaints of anyone who wishes to voice them. Do so now. Please. Addressing these issues and coming to some agreement is the only way for us to get past this, and move back on to becoming a thriving, fun community, as we once were.

As for problems within the administrative team... they either have been fixed or changed already, or are in the process of doing so. Naming names, insulting, and laying blame will only dig us deeper into this hole. Please refrain from doing so.

[Masamune]

When I set out to get banned, it was really a mix of two things. For one, I'm always one to have a running gag. But it was also because, I was quite ready to get banned because the situation at LA was... well, bad. I'd love to fix LA, I wouldn't have carried this on if I didn't feel some attachment to this diverse group of people.

But I'm tired of this. I've butted my head against the powers that be and I would be lying to say that nothing came of it. I know that I've managed to cause a few people to speak out, who had pretty much stayed quiet on the things they didn't like going on. This cannot be held as a bad thing, because it's a shame when people accept that things are as they are. And I understand that there has been some reform in the ways of moderating and adminship. I consider this good, but still a long way from what I would be happy to be seeing.

Seeing, that is, an LA that won't exist again. Or possibly never did, because I was blinded by my ignorance to internal politics. I really couldn't say what it is, but I'd be a liar if I didn't say that I was far too optimistic of what LA could've been. But the old LA, there was a forum I was proud to show off to my friends. I'd point it to them and say, "This is a good forum."

I have no idea when that ceased to be the case. But that's history now. It's rather odd because I feel like some sort of rebel leader or something. I shouldn't be feeling that though. Rebelling was not what I wanted to, it never really was. I have to, really, take some responsibility for the decline, though I wonder how much of it. Had I been silent, I probably would end up not being one of the first but rather just an onlooker despairing for his favorite place to post. Still there were some things done that were uncalled for - on both sides. For those things, I will apologize. DJ, you're not a moron as such. But that was a zing I couldn't resist.

I wanted to just say here, "I'm calling my losses and gonna let LA sort itself out." And I will... a few sentences down, I think. But some people felt I ought to address the issues and I suppose that's only fair.

My greivances were largely focused on this - Unfair Moderation. I disliked the lack of consistency between admins. What would be a warning from one admin would be a banning from another. Being a successful troublemaker just meant knowing where to be at the wrong time. There was also favorism. While I'm not saying that is wrong - because all forums are mostly like that. You do not hand over the keys to your forum to someone unless you trust them. But I felt it was more of an extreme at LA than any other forum I had visited (and felt was worth staying at, mind). There were also a number of decisions I didn't like. I didn't particularily agree with some of the people who were adminned (and while there was always the part that says 'why not me?', it was more focused on why other people weren't). Khuffie's lackadaisical attitude to LA was something I didn't particularily like. The banning of certain people, suspensions, and so forth did not sit well. But I'm not going to point all those out here.

So there you have it. I will strive not to cause more difficulties for LA and call my losses. The time to 'grow up and leave' has come.

[SteveT]

Well, given an opportunity to be straightforward about things (thank you Lord of Shadows), I will do so:

First off, to the other members, I will apologize. Getting increasingly bolder in public posts has not entirely had the desired effect. In fact, this post will not entirely have the desired effect, as will surely be seen. I will admit I’ve gone from sarcastic to mean-spirited of late. Perhaps it’s the futility getting to me.

I also apologize in advance if any of this comes of as rude. It is my intention to be blunt and direct without being an ass about it. It can be tricky.

Anyway, to address something L-o-S said, because I find it to be the heart of the matter:

 
But it's not always the administrative team that is at the heart of these problems. When members think that it is their place to try to enforce rules, or declare something spam or not, or choose to interpret the rules, or think that they can judge what is best for the forum... That leads to conflict with the administrative team, it leads to spam, it leads to incorrect interpretations of the rules and the forum, it leads to... a lack of balance, and the destruction of a community.

Which is exactly what’s going on. The fundamental question is why?

In my mind, it’s all a huge communication failure. One of the strengths (perhaps the only strength) of the jail forum was that whenever someone was jailed, the first post would be an explanation of WHY that person was jailed. The admins explained their actions, and so long as the punishment was logical and fair, no one contested it. This built respect for the admins. However, that has been replaced with, “Don’t question our authoritah.” Which is obviously something that people in power want from their underlings. Unfortunately, the middle step of establishing yourself as a person of good judgment is skipped when admins aren’t somehow held accountable and don’t ever need to explain themselves.

In short, you can’t take it for granted that we will think you’re a fair administrator if we have no basis of judgement. In the name of “avoiding rumors and destruction of community,” the admins very often refuse to comment on bannings when directly asked, and there’s the notorious incident which is an inside “joke” never to be explained...a policy which, as we have seen, has on repeated occasions caused rumors and destruction of community.

Another problem is on the side of the members, but not the ones you think. There are a lot of members who insist on sucking up without remorse to admins and mods. They do it, I imagine, to improve their standing. However, the effect is that the leadership has a warped perspective of how great they are (even if they’re already great, they’ll just think they’re greater). The other problem is that it makes them less and less able to take criticism.

Other problems that don’t take as much analysis to understand:
- Favoritism
- Low tolerance for n00bs (in the sense that old members are given infinitely more leeway)
-Threads being closed with such statements as “OMG, this thread is two weeks old you moron. I can’t believe you posted here. Why don’t you stick your head up your --- a little further, ---hat?” Members resent that type of behavior. It detracts from the sense of justice that rule-enforcement should have.
-Nearly every suggestion in the Suggestions forums is shot down in five posts or less, regardless of its merits.
-In some cases, unwarranted over-moderation of forums
-Certain admins are not very approachable, and even less open to criticism
-Crusaders who for the above reason do things in the least effective way possible
-An apparently uneven power distribution both among admins and mods of a given forum

That’s probably more than one post’s worth of material, but that more or less sums up what I see as the problems with LA in the most polite form possible.



EDITTED: Blast...Khuffie seems to have drawn attention to the least grammatically correct sentence in this post. So I'm going to take my revenge by making his quote innaccurate and my grammar fine. I HAVE FURY!

[Khuffie]

However, that has been replaced with, “Don’t question our authoritah.” Which is obviously something that people in power want to their underlings to do.

When have I ever said don't question the authority? I only say don't question it publically, and don't directly confront the admins or mods in public. If you have a problem, PMs or emails are much better. In fact, I'm dealing with HousesofHoly via email as he was wondering why he was suspended, and I gladly told him, and he understood.

- Favoritism  
- Low tolerance for n00bs (in the sense that old members are given infinitely more leeway)

Yes? If a regular member posts a link to their website, we know he's not here to spam it. If a new member comes here and immediately goes "check out my site", he's here to spam it, and not be a member of the community. If a regular member posts a nonsensical post/thread, we have enough knowledge to know that he/she is not a complete idiot, and that they have a point. If they continue to do it constantly, they would be punished. But if a new member posts nonsensical posts immediately, we have no background knowledge to weigh this against. We can only assume they're idiots, and most of the time its true.

I've never denied this.

Nearly every suggestion in the Suggestions forums is shot down in five posts or less, regardless of its merits.

Because nearly all the suggestions are stupid, involve too much work and won't add anything to the forums.

=MasamuneI disliked the lack of consistency between admins. What would be a warning from one admin would be a banning from another.

We're human. We're not the same person. We have different personalities.

You do not hand over the keys to your forum to someone unless you trust them. But I felt it was more of an extreme at LA than any other forum I had visited (and felt was worth staying at, mind).

I trust all the admins I've adminned. I learnt the hard way by giving adminship to people I don't know when Necro pretty much chose them.

Khuffie's lackadaisical attitude to LA was something I didn't particularily like.

Lackadaisical? I go to university. I juggle 5 major projects, essays, readings and exams. I go to work. I maintain a server. Oh, and I do this thing called sleep.

[DingDong]

We can only assume they're idiots, and most of the time its true.

HAHA! That statement includes 90% of the people who visit this forum. I'd consider a select handfew exempt from this generalization.


Now, a friend who still visits LA (which shall go unnamed), mentioned that there was some dharma going on here. Insisting that I see it because it's too much to convey via conversation, I edited my hosts file so I could come back. Came to this thread...

...and started laughing my ass off. While I salute Steve and Masa, as I've always had <3 for them (2 coolest guys on LA by far), I can't help but think "wow, you're only 4 1/2 months behind", heh.

But is good to know that things going downhill still go downhill, am i rite, AM I RITE? LOLOL

I needed a laugh tonight, and timing is just too great sometimes.

[Dryth]

Some of those at the heart of the current bitching were also at the heart of rampant bitching in the ZA. They pulled the same Socratic introspection bullshit there that they are now. They have sticks up their asses. Serrated sticks; that shit isn't coming out, and it severely interferes with their capacity for sincere empathy. They know who they are. They receive no sympathy.

Anyone that thinks there's a serious communication problem between regular users and administrators needs to spend a little time in the real world. Deal with it. Because you can deal with it; lines of communication are always open if you have social skills above those of a vulture. Again, you aren't going to be so lucky in the real world. We get no paper bars, but presumably we're social creatures.

Admins are human, and for them it's an excuse. Trolls are human, and it sets a certain minimum acceptable standard that some people feel they're required to abandon to prove some point. It's all hubris; abstract the human from the administrator and you're just pissing on a bad analogy.

[DingDong]

Some of those at the heart of the current bitching were also at the heart of rampant bitching in the ZA. They pulled the same Socratic introspection bullshit there that they are now. They have sticks up their asses. Serrated sticks, that shit isn't coming out, and it severely interferes with their capacity for sincere empathy. They know who they are. They receive no sympathy.
 
Anyone that thinks there's a serious communication problem between regular users and administrators needs to spend a little time in the real world. Deal with it. Because you can deal with it; lines of communication are always open if you have social skills above those of a vulture. Again, you aren't going to be so lucky in the real world. We get no paper bars, but presumably we're social creatures.
 
Admins are human, and for them it's an excuse. Trolls are human, and it sets a certain minimum acceptable standard that some people feel they're required to abandon to prove some point. It's all hubris; abstract the human from the administrator and you're just pissing on a bad analogy.

LOL WORDS!

ur on the payroll am i rite? AM I RITE?

[Black Knight]

HAHA! That statement includes 90% of the people who visit this forum. I'd consider a select handfew exempt from this generalization.

You= Not exempt.

Also, please avoid using the word LOL all the time and learn to spell. It's a bad first impression.

[Dryth]

Thanks for demonstrating a point, DingDong.

My intarweb, your corner. My IP, your timeout.

[Black Knight]

Wow... did you see what Ding Dong did in the commons?

Yes? If a regular member posts a link to their website, we know he's not here to spam it. If a new member comes here and immediately goes "check out my site", he's here to spam it, and not be a member of the community. If a regular member posts a nonsensical post/thread, we have enough knowledge to know that he/she is not a complete idiot, and that they have a point. If they continue to do it constantly, they would be punished. But if a new member posts nonsensical posts immediately, we have no background knowledge to weigh this against. We can only assume they're idiots, and most of the time its true.

Isn't it ironic that Khuffie posted this just before this guy came?

[Quistis]

Must... not.... strangle!

[Khuffie]

Hi Bhell/Alistia.

Bye Bhell/Alistia.

Dumbass.

[Zythe]

DingDong was Bhell?

[Selena]

That's what he JUST said, Zythe.

[wisp]

Apparently. *rolls eyes*

Anyway, to get back on subject... what to do about the state of affairs here on LA. I was talking to Selena about what we all could do to get our old community feeling back here on LA, and one of the ideas that popped up was getting rid of the Welcome/etc forum. When birthdays, introductions, and goodbyes took place in the Commons, I think they gave us more of a sense of community. New members were greeted by more people, because they could introduce themselves in plain view, rather than in some forum that is hidden below a bunch of stuff. I know that the Welcome forum is a place that I rarely even think to visit, unless I happen to catch an interesting looking subject line under "most recent post." Newbies used to have an easier time integrating with the rest of LA when the rest of LA was there to greet them upon arrival. There was also a sense of belonging for members who were wished a happy birthday in the Commons. Even if we didn't know the member very well, we would generally reply in the thread with birthday wishes, and it made them feel more at home. Now, the people who generally get recognized on their birthdays are the older members whose names stick out on the "most recent thread" on the front page.

Plus, it would get rid of some of the tension caused by members who post in the random few intro threads that end up in the Commons saying, "Oh no! This should be in Welcome/etc forum! OMG admin move it plz!"

[SteveT]

Dryth, you claim there is no communication problem between admins and members. Yet how many people outside of the mods and admins even KNEW that Alistia was Bhelliom, or why he was banned under either name? What about the incident. It was treated with the utmost melodrama and secrecy, and the usual response to questions about it was "It's just a forum. GOD! Get over it and shut up." That, to me, is amazingly ironic. Everytime someone says "It's just a forum," they say it with the utmost melodrama.

There are plenty other secrects, but I won't divulge them here. It's not my place to do so. Obviously, there are times when the secrecy is more than justified, but public events deserve public response.

My "communication" with admins has been as follows (not all of these are members of the current admin team, and I won't give names for the sake of courtesy):

- Perfectly civil relationships with 3
- One threatened to suspend me over an April Fool's Day joke
- One favored the f-word throughout the course of the conversation

So yes, depending on the situation and the admin involved, the communication can be very free and open, but there are serious exceptions that detract from the sense of community.

Also, Dryth, I would ask you not to try to ruin the civil tone of this thread. We were asked to express out concerns, and the stick-in-ass comment was entirely uncalled for.

Because nearly all the suggestions are stupid, involve too much work and won't add anything to the forums.

I suppose the obvious response is: Spoiler tags are stupid, too much work, and don't add to the forums? SPOILER TAGS? I mean, that one should be a standard feature on message boards...

I wholly agree on NYC about the Welcome forum. I'm sure I siad something to Chikara to that effect when it was first made.

[Veteran]

If people want to talk to me about anything they don't want to say on the forums, I'm here! I'm even more detached from this whole mess than LoS. A fact I want to remedy.

[Zythe]

Why did the hack affect LA so badly? The first time, it just got back up stronger than before? Is it because of the dorms? Should DoM and LoD and CoS return?

[Khuffie]

Dryth, you claim there is no communication problem between admins and members.  Yet how many people outside of the mods and admins even KNEW that Alistia was Bhelliom

Because he asked me for a favour, to come back as Alistia under a fake identity, and me, being nice and communicating well with him, provided him with that favour.

You assume that just because YOU don't see any communication, it doesn't happen. I get PM'ed every few days of people asking questions. And people who were suspended, asking me politely why they were suspended if they were confused. And I answer.

What about the incident.  It was treated with the utmost melodrama and secrecy, and the usual response to questions about it was "It's just a forum.  GOD! Get over it and shut up."  That, to me, is amazingly ironic.  Everytime someone says "It's just a forum," they say it with the utmost melodrama.

There's a reason why I don't want people talking about Necro. Because as soon as the topic comes up, it starts a "omg he's such an ass". Then people from Necro's forum come here, and say I'm an ass. And the same thing happens there. It's stupid and pointless to even discuss it and just causes a flame war.

I suppose the obvious response is: Spoiler tags are stupid, too much work, and don't add to the forums?  SPOILER TAGS?  I mean, that one should be a standard feature on message boards...

Here's your spoiler tag:

[ COLOR=White]spoilers go here[/COLOR ]

See? Simple.

I have this to say:
SteveT, HoW and Masamune: you three are no longer welcome here by me. You're attitude in expressing your gripes with any ''problems'' you may think are in LA are not welcome. You also fail to see that the cause of the problems are people like you. So I ask you to leave of your own accord.

[Dryth]

Dryth, you claim there is no communication problem between admins and members. Yet how many people outside of the mods and admins even KNEW that Alistia was Bhelliom, or why he was banned under either name?

Refer to my previous comment about the real world.

Presumably Bhell knew. At least one administrator knew. They're the responsible parties. There's nothing constructive or democratic about airing laundry publically.

That, to me, is amazingly ironic. Everytime someone says "It's just a forum," they say it with the utmost melodrama.

There's nothing ironic about it; it's reciprocal. Roman to Romans, Troll to trolls, melodrama to the melodramatic. Humans are inclined toward it, and it's avoids making a complete farce out of other people's posts. If trapped in O'Reilly's "No Spin Zone," would you stick to politely pointing out his factual errors?

So yes, depending on the situation and the admin involved, the communication can be very free and open, but there are serious exceptions that detract from the sense of community.

Again, you're welcome to refer to the real world. Life's full of exceptions. Particularly where people are concerned given that... y'know... we're individuals. You're one too. Deal.

Also, Dryth, I would ask you not to try to ruin the civil tone of this thread.  We were asked to express out concerns, and the stick-in-ass comment was entirely uncalled for.

I assure you they aren't. From certain members, this is the exact same BS that's occurred in the past, and that they should have learned from then. They speak of lack of respect, but they're nothing more than utilitarian bitches.

[Oberon Storm]

I have this to say:
SteveT, HoW and Masamune: you three are no longer welcome here by me. You're attitude in expressing your gripes with any ''problems'' you may think are in LA are not welcome. You also fail to see that the cause of the problems are people like you. So I ask you to leave of your own accord.

C-mon. I realize you own these boards, but that helps nothing. They aren't the only ones that have problems with some things that go on. I see some stuff I don't really appreciate. They're some of the same stuff SteveT has laid out. I never said anything because I thought I might be the only one. I also didn't feel it would be all that welcome even if I pmed you or another admin. On top of that, I have only been a member for a little over a year. I do not post often, and in Contro when I do. I am not as familar with a lot of people here as others. Partly because I have chosen not to be part of a dorm. Also because if I do not fell I have something to contribute to the thread, normally, I will not post there. I didn't feel speaking out was my place. So, I kept my mouth shut.

Now I don't completely agree with how these three have gone about expressing their conerns recently. On the other hand, I am not sure how I would have gone about this had I felt something needed to be said. I would like to think I would have been more civil about it. But now I will say what is on my mind. Welcome or not.

The spoiler tags are small potatos. They're not important. Though I would point out that there is a button for quote tags. Something else that can just as easily be typed out.

I am not sad to see the Jail gone. When someone got jailed someone else always had to say something. They couldn't just mind their business. However, with it gone, some people see others just up and disappear. I can see how that might be unsettling.

The treatment of new poeple when they spam doesn't bother me. Older member spamming doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when older members spam and then proceed to speak out when a newer member spams. And this also applies to the Contro forum and the newer rule for new threads. It was made to cut down on spam even though, at the time, most of the spam was by the mods themselves.

I have no real problems wih any of the admins personal or otherwise. However, statements like “OMG, this thread is two weeks old you moron. I can’t believe you posted here. Why don’t you stick your head up your --- a little further, ---hat?” are something if not unwarranted. I do respect this admin. I think he is very capable of his job. I would also love to pick his brain on Transformers someday. But, DJ, I mean no disrespect, but don't you think you could have been more constructive?

Now I see no reason why we are having this thing. Nothing I or anyone else has mentioned is something that cannot be handled quietly if people some people would have just talked to someone. But it also doesn't help when some makes comments about "sticks up their ass", calls others "utilitarian bitches", or completely blows off those that have the concerns and doesn't listen because they are upset. Even if they have every right to be upset.