104 replies to this topic

[Marty]

The immediate answer would be very evil, but step back and give it some thought. We only view Ganondorf as being evil since everyone in the games tells us he is. But I'm going to instead look at his actions and judge him from those (for the moment I am just going to use OoT). I am also only considering Ganondorf, not Ganon.

Ganondorf is, for all intents and purposes, a conqueror. Our history is full of them and we certainly don't label them as being evil (some are but they are labelled evil for other reasons). He also sought to control the triforce, but we know that good kings have governed with the triforce so this in itself is not evil either.

Take a look at the situation in Hyrule after Ganondorf's conquest. There is a general lawlessness in the land, but this can be attributed to a lack of law enforcers (remember all those guards before the conquest? there aren't many, if any, afterwards). I would classify this as being a poor ruler (he isn't known for being "wise" so we can forgive him) and again isn't evil, just incompetent. This however allows for ambitious, driven people (like Ingo) to do well. This is good for the economy, since Talon was too lazy to take full advantage of the farms production abilities.

His worst acts are towards the Zoras and Gorons, he is basically exterminating them. Euthegenics is pretty evil, but remember the Zoras and Gorons did stand against him in his pursuit of conquest so I consider this to be more vengeance. He definitely isn't trying to create a master race, otherwise he would exterminate the Hylians as well since he is Gerudo.

Kakariko village has actually improved since the conquest. Its a thriving community full of commerce. Its grown in size since the conquest and has more residents. For Kakariko village the conquest is actually a good thing.

Basically, Ganondorf is a vengeful conquerer, but he has helped the economy instead of drawing all the wealth unto himself. Is this enough to label him as the epitomy of evil?

[SOAP]

he only helped kakariko (in a sense of giving it "business") ..no he atcually doomed it. hes a psycho. evil. belongs in an insane asylum. then again... he would possess it.

Yes, because we should throw everyone you consider crazy in there.... shut up!

I actually admire Ganondorf. He's very ambitious. He sees an oppurtunity and he takes it. So he's evil because he has goals and isn't lazy? C'mon people!

[Beno]

I don't think Ganondorf really is that evil. It seems like he just wanted his Gerudo race to have more power. He thought they were the best race and they deserved more than just to rot in the desert. He wanted the Triforce to get what his people rightly deserved.

Ganondorf, from the Wind Waker:

"My country lay within a vast desert.

When the sun rose into the sky, a burning
wind punished my lands, searing the world.
And when the moon climbed into the dark
of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes.

No matter when it came, the wind carried
the same thing... Death.

But the winds that blew across the green
fields of Hyrule brought something other
than suffering and ruin.

I coveted that wind, I suppose."

[FDL]

I hate that quote at the end of TWW. It really makes people think Ganondorf is less evil than he is.

[Beno]

Actually I was being a little sarchastic in my post. Ganondorf is human, but he still is technically "evil."

Actually, the more I think about Ganondorf, the closer he seems to Hitler.

He rallied a group of downtrodden people together to believe they were the superior race (Aryans for Hitler; Gerudos for Ganon) and tried to conquer the world because he believe the other races were inferior and tried to kill them off. (Zoras and Goron for Ganon; Jewish people and lots of others for Hitler)

[Vazor]

Maybe Ganondorf wasn't evil after all, just ambitious, yet weak. Ambitious because he sought for the ability to control order, yet weak because he allowed that ability to take control over himself, making his sole purpose to glorify himself. In essense, his ambition is what turned him into the evil Ganon.
Pehaps he is not evil, simply confused...

[Marty]

Perhaps Ganondorf wasn't trying to exterminate the Gorons and Zorans but merely to get revenge. The only actions he took were:

1. Revived Volvagia, a creature that hates the Gorons (since they destroyed him before) and eats them. Seems like a good tool for revenge and I'd wager Ganondorf simply didn't care if Volvagia won or if the Gorons defeated him again.

2. Froze Zoras domain. We don't actually know how long this took, perhaps it was instantaneous, perhaps it took a few days. For all we know, the Zorans were too stubborn to actually leave their home and ended up trapped when they could have escaped. We also know that the Zoras are merely trapped and there is no suggestion (as far as I can recall) that they are actually dying.

That doesn't seem quite so evil, does it?

[Beno]

1. But not only would that dragon slaughter the Goron, the dragon would also cause havoc to the rest of Hyrule.

"On top of that, he is going to feed my people to that evil dragon as a warning to other races that might resist him...
If that fire-breathing dragon escapes from the mountain, all of Hyrule will become a burning wasteland!"

I doubt Ganon would go through the trouble to revive an ancient evil and capture all the Gorons and lock them up, if he didn't want them to actually be eaten. He was using them as an examlpe, if they got away what kind of example would that make?


2. I don't think the Zoras really had a chance to escape from the way Ruto describe it when you first meet her as an adult.

"Zora's Domain--totally frozen!
A young man named Sheik saved me from under the ice...
But my father and the other Zoras have not...yet..."

Ruto makes it sound more like Sheik had to rush in and grab her before the ice got to her, rather can the ice slowly freezing and the Zroras all just sitting there as they froze.

[Marty]

I think Zoras domain was merely frozen over, as opposed to the Zoras being frozen (with the exception of the King). Its perfectly conceivable that they would be able to lead normal lives beneath the ice, just seperated from the rest of the world.

Since the Zorans and Gorons were allies of the Hylians its likely that they resisted Ganondorfs conquest after he returned to Hyrule with the ToP, only they failed and were then made prisoners of war. Making an example of the Gorons would be to prevent a rebellion.

[Beno]

I suppose it really comes down to whose perspective Ganon is being looked at from...

From the Gerudos, he was there hero, they practically worshipped him as a God (says the Gossip stones). He was leading their race out of the desert and into the ruling race of Hyrule.

From all the other races of course he would have been seen as evil. The people lived in fear. To them he was a pure force of evil, overthrowing their loving King, imprisoning or slaughtering the other races.

If you take a step back, Ganon was just a man from an oppressed society who just wanted to have some sort of control in the world. This could have made him a hero, but instead of using peaceful ways of solving the racist problems of Hyrule, he decided to use violence to force the other races into the same position his race was in.

Some people would call that evil, others would not.

[MK.]

Come on people, Ganondorf is supposed to be symbol of pure evil...

Here's a good quote:

Nabooru: "Though we're both thieves, I'm completely different from Ganondorf. With his followers, he stole from women and children, and even killed people!"

....

The climate of evil descending upon this realm...

Malevolent forces even now are mustering to attack our land of Hyrule...

But...before this tremendous evil power, even my power is as nothing...

As the servants of evil gain strength, a vile climate pervades the land and causes nightmares to those sensitive to it...

This evil man ceaselessly uses his vile, sorcerous powers in his search for the Sacred Realm that is connected to Hyrule...

Thou must never suffer that man, with his evil heart, to enter the Sacred Realm of legend...
That evil man who cast the death curse upon me and sapped my power...

If someone with an evil mind has
his wish granted, the world will
be consumed by evil...That is what
has been told...

(and all of this is within the very first part of the game... COME ON PEOPLE!!!)

[MK.]

I see Ganondorf as a person who doesn't want to destroy the world, but rule it with an iron fist. He is not looking for total destruction as Majora's Mask did, he is wanting complete control over all citizens in Hyrule.

I agree. Ganon doesn't want complete destruction, he wants people to still be around which he can make suffer and force to obey him. He basically wants to be a dude who can say "WHAHAH THE WORLD IS MINE!" (however, he is STILL evil even if he doesn't want to DESTROY the world)

In WW, his wish was to "Give Hyrule to ME!" He wanted to physically posess it. He didn't say "Destroy everything!"

Even in the old Link cartoons on TV, that's what Ganon was all about... he wanted to "rule the world..." (and of course kill anyone who got in his way)

[Husse]

He's evil, all right. He started out with good intentions for his people, but the power drove him insane, and he's been pursuing forgotten goals with ruthlessness and murder ever since.

That's evil, even if he is mistaken.

[Zythe]

To begin with, Ganon was no more evil than any other freedom fighter, like Nelson Mandella even. What happened though, was that as he gained power, he lost more and more humanity. Heck. The "raving beast" Ganon in TWW, could be the beginning of evil Ganon. IMO, when he sought the Trident to get his way, that's when he became really evil.

[SOAP]

If you think that Ganondorf is evil just because he was a conquerer who believed that he and his people deserved Hyrule, than you have to say King Daphnes was evil too because he was just as stubborn about keeping Hyrule for his people and even admits he was no different from Ganondorf himself.

I think Ganondorf was no diferent than Alexander the Great. He wanted the world but what's so evil about that? Why is that people are afraid of those who achieve greater power? He is not evil just unjustly misunderstood by those outside his race. The only thing wrong Ganon did was that he let his arrogance cloud his mind. The only reason Ganondorf became so evil was because he was pushed into by little people always trying to knock him down whenever he tries to get the Triforce.

[Marty]

MK, if you look at it from the Deku trees point of view of course Ganondorf would be described as evil, he's a conquerer. I don't have any counter-argument to Nabooru's quote though.

I'm glad people have approached this subject with an open mind, I was a little worried that it might be too radical an idea to suggest that Ganondorf might not be very evil (and its quite difficult to argue that) but I see I'm not the only one who finds it difficult to picture him as the embodiment of all evil.

[Kairu Hakubi]

well what with recent revelations that he might not be -the- ganon, but a posessed man channeling the ganon spirit, perhaps... ganondorf isn't himself all that bad, but he was overtaken by his dark power.. so then by tww when he's significantly weakened, he's barely evil at all anymore.. and just goes insane from grief.

[Zythe]

Yep. It's all because he got that damn Trident. Howevrer, I do think it was a case of "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

[Marty]

So, if Ganondorf is slowly slipping into evilness, does that mean we can follow this progress throughout the games to get a clearer picture on the order of games?

[monique]

Wait, in Windwaker Ganondorf said that his land was punished, maybe Ganondorf was making a new land for his Gerudo people.
Also what I've noticed is that everywhere in Hyrule there are monsters, but when you come to gerudo valley there are almost none.
Also when you wear the gerudo mask the dekusprouts won't attack you!

[Zythe]

So, if Ganondorf is slowly slipping into evilness, does that mean we can follow this progress throughout the games to get a clearer picture on the order of games?

Yes. And it does work with my theory.

"Game Title" *Tween Game Event* (Status of Ganon's morality)

*Hero of Man* "TMC" (not born) "OOT" (not evil, but has a repuation from his enemies as such, tapped into the full power of the ToP and felt some brief taste of evil) *Link's brief search for Navi* "MM" *Link remains in Termina * *Ganon is freed from Sacred realm when his minions kill some Sages* *Great floods* "TWW" (Ganon is killed, in the end, he went mad because he failed after trying so hard. Displayed genuined human emotion - no accessing the evil form he used in OoT) *MS is found by old Zora, is taken to Labrynna* *Link and Tetra found a New Hyrule just North of the Great Sea* "FS" *Evil emerges in Labrynna/Holodrum* "OoX" (returned mindless, no conscious, just evil desire to kill the one who killed him) *Ganon is reincarnated as a good man in the New Gerudo Valley in the New Hyrule, he seeks out the Trident of Darkness to make him able to save his people at any cost. Becomes EVIL* "HA" *Ganon breaks out of the FS which is in the SR, breaks it into 4 and gives it to powerful bosses to keep* "LTTP" *Hyrule is restored to its former glory, like it was in HA* *Ganon's followers use the ToP to revive him and he seeks out the ToW* "LOZ" *Ganon's followers, like Twinrova did with Zelda in OoX, seek to use Link to revive Ganon* "AoL" *various adventures*

Meh.

[Fatgoron]

Good and Evil are subjective terms, so it's not much of an argument.

What I will say about Ganondorf is that he is a pragmatic, rutheless, megalomaniac.
He'll do whatever it takes to achieve absolute power, but as we see in WW he doesn't end people's lives when he thinks he can avoid it

[Hana-Nezumi]

ganondorf is driven by greed (which is perhaps caused by jealousy) to posess the everything. his greed eventually takes over him and he becomes evil. on top of that, the trident also posesses him.

[SOAP]

Good and Evil are subjective terms, so it's not much of an argument.

What I will say about Ganondorf is that he is a pragmatic, rutheless, megalomaniac.
He'll do whatever it takes to achieve absolute power, but as we see in WW he doesn't end people's lives when he thinks he can avoid it

That's what I've been trying to tell all these silly people. A truly evil person kills for fun. TWW shows he only does it when it's really neccessary. If anything, Link is evil for slaughtering thousands of monsters, some of them sentient.

[MK.]

Could someone please tell me the story of the "Trident" ?

[SOAP]

It's a very powerful weappon, maybe as powerful as the Mastersword and apparently has the ability to send people into Dark World. It also happens to be Ganon's trademark weapon in the earlier games. I don't get where people are getting the idea that it "possesed" Ganon, though. There's no evidence that suggests that.

[Hana-Nezumi]

have you played FSA?